Why "Nice Guys/Girls" Are Not Really Nice

[Subject0]

I recently saw a myTake on why "nice guys/girls" can't get a date. I agree with everything the author said, except one thing: nice guys are girls are not really "nice". Wondering why? Well, one of the reasons is...

1. They go for people way out of their league and get pissed when they're not willing to "settle"

Sorry, but leagues do exist. If you're unattractive and boring, you can't expect someone who is fun and good-looking to be interested in you. Most of the nice guy and gals only chase people that fall into the latter category, and are not willing to even consider someone who is on their level. If you're obese, but won't date someone who is not fit, or want an intelligent partner while never doing anything for self-improvement yourself, then you're not a "nice person who can't land a date because all the guys/girls only like hoes/assholes", you're a hypocrite.

2. ... or worse: They only go for people whom they have nothing in common with, simply because those people are hot.

You see, when someone says "I want someone who'll treat me nicely", they don't mean "I'll go out with just about anyone as long as they're nice". What is usually implied is "I want someone whose looks and personality I find attractive, whom I share common interests with, and who'll also treat me nicely". Niceness alone isn't worth anything, it only matters as a part of the whole package. And yet, if you take a good look around, you'll notice how many attractive guys and girls are constantly being pursued by people whom they have nothing in common with, who for some reason think the former owe them sex or relationships because they're nice. Which brings me to my next point...

3. You don't get brownie points for something you're supposed to do

Basic human decency requires to treat other fellow humans nicely. Which truly nice person would expect praise and appreciation for not being a jerk?

Besides,..

4. If you really are "nice", you don't need to tell everyone that. They know!

If you need to announce that you're nice, you're probably not, otherwise people would have realised it long time ago. That's just common sense.

5. However, the biggest red flag, in my opinion, is that they blame everyone but themselves

When you hear the word "nice", what characteristics do you think of? For me, "nice" is someone who is compassionate, polite, kind, and forgiving. When getting rejected, a nice person's train of thought would probably look similar to the following: "Okay, that hurt like a bitch, but such is life. Maybe I'm not smart/fun/interesting enough for them. Maybe I should have worked on my appearance more. Or maybe I'm simply not their type, or they like someone else at the moment. In any case, everyone is entitled to their feelings and preferences, so I won't hold a grudge against them for not liking me." If someone's first reaction is to throw a hissy fit and start trash talking the person they like, this person's crush, or the entire gender this person belongs to (e.g. the aforementioned "women only date jerks/men only date hoes"), then sorry, that someone is not nice.

---

Recognised yourself? Then it's your chance to get your dating life right. Stop being bitter, and instead of blaming others for your failures, read this take again, realise what you're doing wrong, and make an effort to change. It may be a long and tough road, but it'll be worth it in the end, when you'll find someone the new, better "you" deserves. Good luck! :)

[Anonymous]

I'm known as very nice guy. I don't pretend to be nice, I am naturally nice (except educational/professional environment) and I'm below average looking and guess what, a very beautiful girl liked me, way out of my 'league'. Nothing ever happened. Why? Because I believed in the 'league' and thought that she's out of league. Even after accepting that I can be with her, I took things too slow and she went away. I am 100% to be blamed here.

This 'league' thing is total BS.
Ivy league engineering graduates scratch head after looking at machines of an Asian teen going to school. MK Dons thrashes Manchester United. Tiny organisations terrorise countries with army of millions... list is endless.

[Sara413]

I don't think the point was that it never happens, but that if the ONLY people you ever chase are ones who are far more attractive then you, then you can't piss and moan about them not wanting you. You can't EXPECT someone who be attracted to you who is highly desirable if you're, well, not.

[Opinion Owner]

@Sara413 I know. However this article is noticeably generalised & biased against nice guys. This isn't topic of terrorism, honour killing, rape etc where things are clearly going in a direction, nice guys can be genuinely nice or pretending to be nice; so generalising is a mistake here. This article is misleading on so many levels. Discouraging to geuinely nice guys.

Also, who said that one can't chase only more attractive persons? If one can accept first-sight-rejections then what's the problem in that? Chaces may not be as good as an attractive person but they won't be too less either. Attractiveness is subjective.
And you can't piss and moan about them for not wanting you (No one should piss & moan but it's alright, if you were rejected in insulting or inhumane manner) because you can't expect anyone to like you. Do more attractive person get license to piss & moan when they get rejected? Can more attractive person expect someone to like them?

[Opinion Owner]

@Sara413 ...

No, they can't even expect a ugly person to like them. Because still a very attractive person can be rejected easily by an ugly person just like an ugly person gets rejected by a very attractive person. This applies to global superstars to an unnoticed worker in a office.

Well, my point was that this 'league' thing to classify persons is utter bullshit. It is same as defining social classes. Which parameter is used to define leagues? Only looks & that's superficial. I know looks are important but stopping yourself because of looks isn't right. And relationships between two people from very different leagues aren't that much rare either. So if you want someone then go get'em. Have some pride and balls to accept rejection. It can come from anyone, any league.

[SIGguy]

Let'em be shallow, dude. Pain is the only way some people learn. Nothing you can do to win the debate.

[Opinion Owner]

@SIGguy That's true but some people won't even understand after that. They're just too rigidly programmed. They need to have open mind to actually learn something. Like there's some tribal people in Africa or India who lives by stealing from others. It's tradition in their tribe. They've been taught that stealing isn't bad while we were taught that stealing is bad. No matter what we do, we will never see stealing as good thing & they will never see stealing as bad thing.
Same way people always have this-that programmed. This article is pinnacle of it and it probably negatively programmed some people already about nice guys. (Again, nice guys includes genuinely nice & pretending to be nice guys. Too many variables to define.)

And @Sara413 This reply (rigid, programmed and stuff) wasn't aimed at you. I hope you didn't take it personally ^^

[Crimson811]

@SIGguy That's not being shallow. People don't have to be attracted to you just because you are them. They don't owe you a date, or relationship. Another thing, people ARE allowed to have standards, as long at they aren't too high.

[RJGraveyTrain]

Beautiful, beautiful!

[Bluemax]

An interesting take and quite right on some points, but not so right on other points.

1. "If you're unattractive and boring, you can't expect someone who is fun and good-looking to be interested in you"
Most unattractive people I know do not *expect* someone good looking. They *desire* someone good looking. And the two words aren't interchangeable. I expect to win the lottery is different from I desire to win the lottery. I expect someone attractive is different from I desire someone attractive. All humans on the planet, attractive and unattractive, desire attractive people. This is the result of millions of years of human evolution. We can control how we act, but we can't control who we're attracted to. Thus I don't think unattractive people are hypocrites for desiring attractive people. I *do* think unattractive people are hypocrites when they BLAME attractive people for not liking them.

Boring is much more subjective than appearance, I think. I find most of pop culture boring, but many people don't. Likewise, many people find Beethoven boring, but my wife and I don't.

I also dislike this term "blame" when it comes to rejection. When I was rejected, I felt I was not to blame, and she was not to blame. No one is to blame. She just didn't like me so move on. When I rejected girls, I never once thought, "Well, she's to blame." I certainly didn't think I was to blame. In most cases, when a rejection occurs, NO ONE IS TO BLAME.

Subject0, when you were rejected, did you say to yourself, "I'm to blame?" Or when you rejected someone, did you say to yourself, "He's to blame (or she if you swing that way)?" Blame when it comes to rejection in most cases strikes me as just odd.

If you keep striking out, my suggestion (and here's where we agree) is to increase your level of attractiveness as much as possible. It's the smartest thing you said in this take, though it's unlikely the readers you were attempting to appeal to even got that far in reading your take, given your style of heaping names and blame on them.

[Anonymous]

The thing that pisses me off about all this, is what is a nice person supposed to do? Just go against everything kind and good and turn into a selfish, disrespectful, cruel, unfeeling asshole? I remember growing up, I had no idea about the "rules" or how to be a "man". I just lived. I didn't have "correct" interests like sports and drinking and pot and breaking the law. I liked stuff like Star Wars and Transformers. Also I saw how the "alphas" acted, and it seemed wrong. The first "alphas" I encountered were the jocks/preppies, who went on to become frat boys, who went on to get business jobs. They were cruel, often needlessly so. They looked down on guys who weren't into sports or trouble-making, and on girls who didn't have beauty. They made it a point to go around acting like they were "better than you" because Mommy and Daddy had money. They were disrespectful of anyone and anything outside of their clique. They were a bunch of fucking assholes and they were exactly who I didn't want to be.

Then I went on and finished college, like I had been preparing to do all my youth. I was told I was a bright kid with a future. And eventually I met girls who I not only found more physically attractive than any other girls I'd ever met in my life, but (gasp) they were actually into stuff I liked! We DID have stuff in common. We WERE able to talk so easily, and we really got along. We used to share stuff with each other that we thought was cool, they supported me and my interests, we used to talk for hours. They claimed to enjoy my company, and I found them interesting, exciting, and fun to talk to. I really wanted to get to know them on a deeper level, I wanted them in my life and they made me feel like I could do things. They inspired me.

Only for me to encounter a new type of "alpha" - the tattooed tough-guy "rebel". A knuckle-dragging meathead piece of shit whose main purpose in life is to drink, do drugs, and rack up "street cred". To take stupid risks that paid no reward but to show the world how "alpha" they are. And the special girls I met, smart as they were, ate up the Hollywood bullshit hook line and sinker. When I protested, I was friendzoned.

I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Be an arrogant, cruel douche like the "alphas" I grew up with? Throw away my relationships with my family and friends and my middle-class background and devolve to a tattooed white trash "rebel" and live for their small-minded bullshit? There's no good answer.

[Opinion Owner]

For what it's worth, these girls were extremely attractive - BUT I'm an at least half-decent looking guy, and they even spoke positively of my looks. I don't think I'm the sexiest man alive, but I think I'm good-looking enough that my appearance was not the problem. And like I said, I was able to carry on conversations with those girls very well. They talked to me at length and shared real thoughts with me and asked for mine, it wasn't just me asking questions and them giving me "yep's" and "nope's". I wasn't just "nice" to them, we actually got along. They said I made them happy. I didn't like them just because they were hot - we had stuff in common and they were into my goals.

The other thing was, these were not entirely bad women either. Even the "worst" one had some good in her.

I have always known I've had to work on my confidence and on being interesting, but clearly, they found me interesting enough to keep talking to. And I wanted to improve on this stuff anyway.

[Opinion Owner]

And here's the kicker: even if I do the work do become confident and interesting, what good will it do? The girls I was attracted to are taken. It only goes downhill from there. So i'm going to do all this work, all this struggle, and for what? For "someone new". In other words, someone who is less attractive (if at all), less interesting (if at all), that I have no real desire to know - someone who is less than the ones I wanted in every way. Someone that I don't really care about, that I would leave in an instant if I ever got a second chance with the ones I really want, but who I am just stuck with because it's them, someone who is also not the ones I want and therefore no better, or nothing. I'd just be with them because I messed up when it counted. How am I supposed to have any kind of passion in such a relationship? I guess I just don't get to be happy, I guess I just don't get to be romantically fulfilled. All because I wasn't confident and interesting in time. Such bullshit.

[The_Empty]

You just need to not give a shit. Fuck the world I say, fuck mankind. A guy I watch called the Amazing Atheist summed up how I feel about mankind, and I quote, "the human race is a collective of pieces of shit, whose totality is a giant turd, I don't like people because I don't have a scat fetish". He's right, people are useless and stupid at best, violent war-mongering jackels and racists at worst, just write them off and not care, it helps.

[thecd1979]

It's all about confidence and confidence is what is attractive and sexy. I can assure you that it is possible to be a GOOD and confident man and not have to be an asshole to do it. A girl that is shallow and has issues of her own is going to see behaviors like her dude kicking people asses, telling his boss to fuck of and not go to work, and snorting coke while driving 120mph as attractive and what makes him confident and assertive. On the other hand. A GOOD woman, I'll say it again, a GOOD woman, who is confident and doesn't have issues, is going to find a man that is financially stable, has accomplishments, is career and goal oriented and for lack of better term has his shit together as being confident. In fact a GOOD confident women will not find the meatheads behaviors attractive and will think he's a dumbass and not a cool guy. Read up on my take about not all guys being jerks for me to better explain.

[Opinion Owner]

@thecd1979 , yeah, one of them had major issues for sure. But I thought I was getting her out of it. She was the one who talked to me the most, said I made her happy the most.

All of them were young, late teens early 20s when I met them. I think at that age, even the smartest girls still get hung up on a bad-boy phase, no doubt it part due to Hollywood romanticizing cocky shitbags whose only purpose in life is to be "shocking" and "against the grain". I was in my mid 20s at the time.

The trouble is, I wasn't confident or accomplished. I had dreams which we talked about, but little action and a lot of fear. I didn't grow up confident because I never felt like I had power. I felt like if I did have power, I would know because things would be easy and would require no effort. That's the thing that kills me about being friendzoned... sometimes it's not a mismatch. They were the kind of girls who I feel would have been interested in the guy I want to be, if only I had my life sorted then.

[Opinion Owner]

@thecd1979 PS - what is the name of your Take that you were referring to, for me to read?

[thecd1979]

My take is titled "not all guys are jerks” also check out my take about the kind of girls that end up with guys that are idiots. I t should explain it well. I’m not here to bust anyones chops or tell them what to do I am just trying to pass on what I know and help, so if the shoes fits wear it, its all about seeing things fr what they really are.

[Scrambledagain]

I really hate this post. Tell you why, I'm a nice guy... was a nice guy. But I didn't even know this until I read about it in a pick up artist book at the age of 28 or so. Hindsight is a bitch. I was literally friendshipzoned by every girl in my social group. So I'm going to say my piece: 1) I never went for the hottest girl, In fact I learnt lesson number 1: No girl likes a nice guy. The very few who did like me were religious types (not for me) 2) related, I did have standards in terms of personality. I'm outgoing. The only problem was the outgoing ladies were usually taken or as per point 1, were friends with me only. 3) I get that nice should be a given. But I could never understand why girls complained about men to me but went for those same men, then tells me I will find a me a "lucky girl"? lesson learnt. Women can talk so much shit and you don't know what you want. Also bad boys get the girls. 4) I never called my self a nice guy. In fact I was the clown of my group and I was the funny guy: lesson learnt: humour, like nice also doesn't get girls. Hindsight showed me this. Now I'm doing everything in my power to change that. 5) I only blamed me. Most nice guys actually blame themselves, hence their toxic shame and insecurities.

So yes, I did have to change. Gym, countless books, business plans, hobbies, taking no shit. And it's worked. Now I play women, need to make up for lost time.

[Subject0]

Didn't mean to upvote this, was an accident. And no, you're still a nice guy, full of bitterness and self-pity.

[Dipsy]

In order for a girl to want you, you have to be a prize in her eyes. Girls never admit this, but they want a very good boyfriend, to basically show off. It's a competition among women. You shouldn't be just a guy, you should be A guy. It's a difference. Women want a guy whom they're very satisfied with and actually to make other women jealous. It's the sad truth.
Popularity plays a huge role. In order to become popular, you have to get (lots of) friends and people have to like you in general (a likeable personality). You need confidence too, and you have to be charming. People should want to be in your presence, dominance, a social leader kind of. That's what makes girls weak to the knees.

[Scrambledagain]

😂 hell no I'm not a nice guy. Nice guys end up on Ashley Madison. I'm a dick in the love game. Nice guys don't get women... I'm getting women now. But I must admit, it's been a rough road and I am a dark soul, and do regret my former self. Religious upbringings will do that to you.

[The_Empty]

@Dipsy, fuck that prize shit, I ain't no one's goddamn prize, the only prize they won was being acknowledged for me. If she ain't gotta be perfect, fuck that, neither should I or anyone else.

[Dipsy]

@The_Empty
Thats just how girls work, can't help it either
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They say 80% of girls go for 20% of guys, so become that 20%. The prize.

[The_Empty]

@Dipsy I'd rather be alone than perfect for a girl that doesn't deserve anything close to perfection.

[crystalt70]

Generalizations that people think are accurate based on their own perception. I know quite a few nice guys/girls that have an s. o. that could be considered "out of their league" by observers if you went off of looks. I have come across guys that I wouldn't normally just go for, but then I got to know them and thought, "hmm... I would be with this guy". Why? Because good guys really are better than douchebags. Once you get to know someone, your opinion of them usually changes, either for the better or worse. I could be attracted to a guy in "my league", but then be turned off after getting to know him. As for hot guys, if he's a douchebag, I wouldn't even give him a second thought. Fyi, nobody is better than anyone else. That's all a delusion that people create for themselves or for others.

Not all "nice guys/girls" are bitter. Can a nice person become bitter? Yes. Through life's experiences, anyone can become bitter. That's their personal cross to bear and something they can hopefully overcome. It's not always because they keep going after people that someone else considers to be out of their league.

[Anonymous]

I'm sorry, but this was NOT a very good take! It's full of careless, ignorant, assumptions being passed off as some kind of pretended wisdom! It's understandable! The take owner is probably just one more young, reasonably attractive female who benefits from unearned, automatic acceptance by the opposite sex. The writer obviously has no frame of reference to even dimly understand what an ACTUAL nice guy is and how women treat them.

First, this silly article opens with the mistaken notion that "Nice Guys/Girls" exist as some kind of equivalent counterparts! That's total nonsense! If a girl is just decent looking and nice, she's quickly accepted by the opposite sex just for EXISTING. If guy is just decent looking and nice, he'll be SHUNNED by the opposite sex! So, this take is all wrong before we even reach it's five points of careless generalizations.

There are immature, childish people that may fit some aspect of five given generalizations. However, none of these apply to any ACTUAL nice guys! The take owner really has no business using the term "nice guys" when she is really referring to childish, arrogant, thoughtless, selfish guys. ACTUAL nice guys are totally different! The biggest accomplishment of this take is to expose the spoiled, privileged, entitled attitude of women who have the gall to demand that guys become a magic mix of charming, interesting, thrills while women simply sit on their butts and judge!

[TheSkaFish]

That's another thing I don't get. I get that a guy should be interesting - I've always wanted to be more interesting to myself, and one of the things I liked about those girls was that they were interesting.

But how can you be interesting when you are an adult and you have to work a job to pay bills? There are very, very few interesting jobs out there, and even fewer that actually pay a good salary to live like a normal person, let alone to live nicely unless you are insanely good at it.

Most jobs are boring tasks that need to get done which people do just for the paycheck, so they can live a middle-class lifestyle or better. When you're an adult, you don't get time to be "cool". So I don't understand how a guy can get around this once you get older. I don't want to be stuck with a boring woman, and I do genuinely want to be interesting. But I can't just blow off the bills and not work and do interesting stuff all day. What's a guy to do?

[Opinion Owner]

I think the problem is that a lot of women simply refuse to grow up and face reality until they are approaching the wall of middle age! Then late wisdom suddenly appears! During their most fertile time for bearing children, women's hormonal "thinking" tends to be delusional! This is probably part of why young women historically had few rights! Human history is loaded with examples of grown men who "took" (in the most literal sense) "child" brides! Women now have full legal rights. But they still have their historic childish mindsets!

[Subject0]

"Nice guys" is a slang term for a group of males who can't find a girlfriend and spend most of their time complaining about how they can't get laid because women only date jerks. They're called "nice guys" because they often say "I'm a nice guy, so why doesn't anyone date me?", while the real problem is their entitled, childish and arrogant attitude. This take is about them, not about guys who are truly nice. And no, I don't "benefit from unearned, automatic acceptance by the opposite sex". I work on my personality and physical appearance and don't expect guys to chase me, I meet them halfway.

[RandomUsername3464]

I don't know what you benefit from physically, but I'd say you definitely benefit from having the narrative firmly on your side. I understand what the take was trying to get across, it just seemed vitriolic. Most girls and guys these days seem to agree with you. They ignore the fact that guys like me have seen girls actually say they don't like nice/decent guys plenty of times. They meant it literally, and I know, because I asked them to clarify. Of course, it's not something to lose your cool over - the solution is to just stay away from people like that. But I'd say there is something wrong with girls being able to walk all over decent guys and get away with it. And before you reply, just remember that I never self-proclaimed anything, and I agreed with certain other points of your take.

[TheSkaFish]

OK, but again, how can a guy who has to work all day to pay the bills be interesting and exciting though? Most jobs are just things that need to be done in order to keep the world going. They aren't fun or cool, they don't give good stories, and they aren't going to make a person interesting for doing them. Plus you need money to buy fun things and to go places, entertainment isn't free.

[Opinion Owner]

Take Owner - I think you are in denial! Unless you are very fat, very ugly or physically deformed in some way, as a young female you HAVE benefited from unearned automatic acceptance by the opposite sex! Nature did that! Your claim that "I work on my personality and physical appearance and don't expect guys to chase me, I meet them halfway." is real cute! But it's delusional! You are NOW at the prime of your youthful attractiveness! Once you hit the wall of middle age and beyond, you will never be so attractive again! And no amount of working on yourself can change that.

You have the typical young woman's warped, delusional view of nice guys. I've included a link to a video called Douche Bag Math 101. This video was made by a very wise WOMAN who tells the REAL TRUTH about the situation with nice guys and the douche bag-jerks that so many women choose! Check her video out and educate yourself! You might actually get out of denial! Watch the video and LEARN!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESYK8fCEHUQ

[Someguy17]

@TheSkaFish I would recommend picking up new hobbies. I started taking guitar lessons and improv comedy classes a couple of months ago. Even mentioning that has led to great conversations with women. I also like to read a lot. I find that reading helps me to think faster during conversations and be more knowledgeable/interesting. Don't just do this to meet women, it will also make you feel better and more confident about yourself, especially when you start to get good at it. I work 50+ hours a week.

[TheSkaFish]

@Someguy17 , yeah, I like this advice. There are some hobbies I've been wanting to take up for a long time. I really admire some of my friends' creativity. Like you, I too enjoy reading and I also want to learn guitar. I have for a long time, but I've been intimidated by it because of starting at a late age, worried that I'd never get good because I didn't have natural talent or genetics or that I started too old. I'm trying to throw that fear out, but yeah, it's completely for me too, it doesn't really have much to do with wanting a girl (though I like to talk about favorite bands with girls who also like those bands). It's got a lot to do with wanting to create songs like the ones I love. Anyway. Thanks for the post. I feel more optimistic already.

[thecd1979]

Unfortunately, when I was a young dumb full of cum youngster, I was once this kind of whiny, bitter, complaining and selfish kind of "nice guy" who used to think that I was owed something by women because of how "nice" I supposedly was. Number two on the list is what I was most guilty of back then. I was pretty stubborn when I was younger and I had to learn the hard way, as most guys that think this way will, that my behaviors and mannerisms where the problem. Guys if your reading this and any of these behaviors describe you please stop doing it, stop the bitterness, stop the envy, stop the whining, stop the complaining, recognize that you are the problem and make a sincere effort to change. This kind of behavior is not attractive or sexy to a woman. I'm not trying to bust anyone's chops or make you feel shitty. Please don't take offense to what I am saying because I'm not trying to come at you like that. I wish I had someone to give me some of this advice when I was younger and might have been able to save myself a lot of frustration and heartache and had better interactions with women. Please just take a step back and see it for what it is.

[RandomUsername3464]

This sounds like something straight out of a Tumblr copypasta. Of course, it's trendy to think that guys are always at fault for everything by default. The person who made the take just said "Nice Guys/gals" so they could pretend to be impartial. I'd say that if someone uses their Internet life to bash nice guys 24/7, it's best to stay away from them.

[thecd1979]

Hey dude, if the shoe fits wear it, that's all I'm saying, if not then you should be good to go

[RandomUsername3464]

I just disagree that absolutely everything is always the guy's fault. Yeah, I get it, that's the trendy, modern way to think these days. It's hip, and in vogue. But when people step into reality, they usually find out the cold hard way that responsibility is a two-way street. It works both ways. But I don't expect anybody on this site to understand that.

[TheSkaFish]

For me, it's wasn't that I think they owe me sex because I am nice, or that I liked them only because they were hot.

It was more like they were people I could actually talk to, who liked some of the same stuff as me and in one case, most of the same stuff as me. In fact, had more to talk about with them than I have with any of the girls I've ever met when I'm out with friends. That they were good-looking and had common interests or at least the ability to carry real conversations with me, that's what made them stand out from the crowd and got my interest up. Best of all worlds.

The problem was that when I met them, I wasn't confident, didn't have my life together. I didn't know what I wanted to do for money and while I had hobbies I wanted, I was scared that I wasn't ever going to be good enough. So I didn't have much going on with me. But I always wanted to improve. That's what makes me think I had a chance. I wasn't on their level, but I sincerely wanted to be.

[Anonymous]

Most 'nice guys' have a nice core (not all, but most).

Why? A guy who is a jerk rapidly drops the nice guy routine when he realizes it doesn't work, and moves on to... destroying girls self esteem or other negative but successful behaviors.

Nice guys? Most of them are nice guys trying to do the right thing. And it isn't working. So on some level they think they have to try -harder-. Because they were told girls liked nice guys, at least, 'good girls' do (they've been warned that sluts like bad boys or jocks or something similar). So they try harder and harder and harder because they aren't having success, till soon they are behaving in ways that are passive aggressive, being fake, acting like doormats, all while building resentment, living with this confused double think where on one hand they feel they must not be nice enough, and on the other, objectively are aware they are being much 'nicer' than guys having success, and at the same time, all the girls they actually meet, even ones who appear to be quite nice that they'd like to date, are going after 'bad boys', i. e. ALL the girls are the sort of girls they were told to avoid. So they're lashing out, being judgmental, being bitter and acting 'entitled'.

But deep down, if they were really jerks, they wouldn't be stuck in this rut to begin with.

[loveisbeautiful]

I really dislike takes like this, I'm so tired of people saying that you need to change yourself to get a date or if someone rejects you, it's your fault. Change needs to be of your own free will, something that you feel will help better improve you and your life. Change should not be a way to land a date, changing who you are and what you like to make yourself more appealing to the dating population is wrong. I have a lot personally changes to make, for myself but I will never change anything about myself just to make myself desirable to men. It' just not going to happen.

Also, opposites do attracted and people connect with different people everyday. Just because someone is fun, doesn't mean they wouldn't go for someone laid back or "boring". Everybody needs someone who balences them out, no one wants to themselves. I just think this whole take is all wrong and sends a bad message to people who are in fact nice.

[Bluemax]

I'm not so sure opposites attract. In most cases I think they don't.

[RandomUsername3464]

@loveisbeautiful I wanted to respond a few days ago but I forgot. But your comment was very refreshing. It hurts when someone tells you that you need to completely change who you are, just so you can score a date. This works for both sides. I've always had this innate feeling that if someone wants you to change who you are, completely, just so you can score a date with them, then they aren't worth it! Too many people on the Internet try to give "honest" dating advice and it comes off bad. We need more people like you to say these things!

[ras144]

No no no no no, you apparently have never met these nice guys/gals, haven't you.

"Also, opposites do attracted "
That's Bullshit, stop believing everything you watch on tv. Those opposite attract couples are rare, end up in divorce, and/or have SOME SORT of common interest. Do you honestly think Britney Spears would date Steven Hawkings? Do you?

" I'm so tired of people saying that you need to change yourself to get a date or if someone rejects you, it's your fault."
If you are CONSTANTLY getting rejected on a daily basis, 25 years old and still virgin, you're going to sit there and tell me you're probably not doing something wrong? Really? That sounds like someone who's in denial.

"Change should not be a way to land a date,"
This isn't about telling Nice Guys/Gals to change themselves to get a date. It's telling them WHY THEY CAN'T GET A DATE. Usually, they Nice Guys/Gals need to change their entire mentality to also save them from a life of bitterness and self-pity.

[loveisbeautiful]

@RandomUsername3464 Thank you, I appreciate that. Too bad the girl below you doesn't agree.

[loveisbeautiful]

@ras144 First, opposites do attract in looks and personality. Believe it or don't, I really don't care. For the record though, Britney married Kevin Federline for a while and they had two kids together. He wasn't catch in personality or looks, but she married him. So, maybe just maybe relationships aren't formed on surface level stuff. Maybe, just maybe it's formed on deep level things that an outsider looking in can't see. Maybe, just maybe, people fall in love with a person as they are and not what they see or try to be.

Not all rejection is because someone is doing something wrong, sometimes are hearts draws us to the wrong type of people. Thus, leading to rejection and heartbreak. I'm 28 and single but it's not because of rejection, it's cause of lack of life experience. So, that could be part of it for people too.

Yes, they are being told to change. I know what I read.

[ras144]

"Britney married Kevin Federlin"
You're using a couple that has long been DIVORCED.
Also, that showed that Britney made a bad decision. Plenty of people make bad decisions.

"Not all rejection is because someone is doing something wrong,"
So if there's a morbidly obese woman who smells like dead rats, you're going to tell me she's not responsible for not getting a date? If the guy says very sexist things to women (but he doesn't know that he's being sexist), you're going to tell me that he's not responsible for a lack of a love life. If I constantly rejected guys because they didn't look like Brad Pitt, you wouldn't think it's my fault that I can't get a date.

"sometimes are hearts draws us to the wrong type of people."
THAT IS STILL YOUR FAULT.

"Yes, they are being told to change. I know what I read."
Because they're pathetic, hateful, sexist, bitter, and wallow in their self-pity.

[loveisbeautiful]

@ras144 Clearly your an argumentative person, I am not. So, let's just say you have your opinion on this topic and I have mine. Let's just agree to disagree. Okay?

[RandomUsername3464]

Haha, I don't care about the girl below. Clearly many people can't handle an opinion that disagrees with the main take. But that's not my or your problem.

[loveisbeautiful]

@RandomUsername3464 I suppose your right about that. You have a nice outlook on things.

[R3d_Anonymous]

Yes! This is the opinion I was looking for.

[loveisbeautiful]

@R3d_Anonymous You liked the opinion I gave?

[R3d_Anonymous]

Yeah.

[loveisbeautiful]

@R3d_Anonymous Thanks.

[Nuqood]

The image in point #2 is retarded.

No shit a guy wants a pretty woman, all men do. That's kind of a difference between men and women, women are more interested in personality than men are, so the bloke in the image isn't a scumbag steve for acknowledging his nature.

Asker, how many 'nice guys' have you ran into that weren't people online? How many have outright told you that they were 'nice guys' and bitches about how 'assholes' got the girls in person and not venting online? Usually those types stay silent IRL, so the issue doesn't even matter.

[The_Empty]

But, somebody is WRONG over the INTERNET

[LightsOff]

The image is not "retarded" at all. There's a difference between wanting a hot girl but knowing you probably won't get one because they would be out of your league, and wanting a hot girl and EXPECTING her to fall for you despite all your crazy flaws. The first thing is fine, it's totally natural to appreciate other people's beauty and to feel attracted to it. The second thing is a bit delusional though, you can't expect someone who's a 10/10 (looks and personality) to fall for you if your like a 4/10. It's just not very realistic. It can happen but the chances are so very slim. Especially if you're really just a bitter, insecure and pessimistic person.

[Nuqood]

@lightoff There's no such thing as 'out of your league'. The only people who say that are women with an inflated self-worth and men who have no confidence.

Women don't give a shit less whether a guy is handsome or not. Women are attracted to resource, worth, status, and personality. If someone is known as the best in their field, speak passionately about it, have a large social group, can provide for their needs, have leadership qualities, and their personality intrigues them they will fall for them.

Men aren't the same; Men care about looks more than personality, and any man who says they don't is a liar since, guaranteed, the appearance of a woman is what makes them approach and not 'she looked like she has a good personality'. The image says he wants her to like his personality if she's hot, which is what male/female interaction is, lol. That's why it's a bullshit image.

[Nuqood]

for example, for someone to fuck you it takes a lot more than being attractive to spread your legs, whereas for me all you need to be is half-way decent.

[BruceJender]

@Nuqood is 100% right.

[Sara413]

"Women don't give a shit less whether a guy is handsome or not"

Except, speaking as a woman, yes we do. We absolutely do. We want to be physically attracted to our partner. Some may value appearance more or less than others, but the idea that women don't care at all about appearance and only care about "resources" if bullshit. Back in the days when we needed a man to take care of us, perhaps more women were willing to settle for a mediocre-looking or ugly guy because he had money or status, but these days we're mostly looking for a guy who's our equal across the board... so a decently pretty girl is gonna want a decently good looking guy.

[ras144]

"Usually those types stay silent IRL, so the issue doesn't even matter."
Elliot Rodger ring a bell? If not, google him.

"women are more interested in personality than men are,"
That doesn't justify you being a shallow asshole. Honestly, guys like you deserve to be alone. Just because appearance isn't a big priority to women doesn't mean that it isn't a priority in general. Also, do you understand how fucking unfair it is to be like "I don't date fat chicks" while you are also fat, but then call women bitches for not wanting to fuck a fat bitch? Do you not understand HOW SEXIST that mentality is?

[Nuqood]

@ras144 Cool, one person in recent times who has killed because he felt so worthless and desperate due to his looks. It's bad enough that you're using an extreme situation as evidence of people lashing out, let alone trying to say that stuff like that happens frequently; You sound like the same people who use the Hitler example every time summat bad happens.

Yes, I'm a shallow asshole, and you're a shallow asshole, so let's stay on topic instead of resorting to ad-hominem attacks. Actually, I just read down what you said and see you're just throwing a tantrum. Maybe next time calm down and think rationally before you try to engage someone in argument. Ta for proving my point, only self-centered women see leagues; That fat guy who wants someone who looks better than the fat girl is being a guy, not a douche, and if he's valuable enough he will get a fit girl, because that's how girls work.

[Nuqood]

@Sara413

Brad Pitt's body and face but with Jonah Hill's awkwardness, no fame, no money, submissive, ok sense of humour, few friends, and mediocre accomplishments.

or someone like Michael Cera with a deep voice, Brad Pitt's confidence, $100,000 salary, dominant and commanding (leadership wise), great sense of humour, outstanding accomplishments and life stories, large circle of friends.

I'm sure you'll choose Brad Pitt in that scenario -rolls eyes-

Now, ask any guy the same question but instead change Brad Pitt to someone like Sofia Vergara and Michael Cera to someone like Kristel Schaal and guess which one the guy will choose? And why? Because men don't give a fuck about a woman's personality, social circle, job, and lifestyle so long as she's hot, not crazy, and not a drug addict.

[ras144]

" That fat guy who wants someone who looks better than the fat girl is being a guy"
No. That's called being a hypocrite and using sexism to justify your shallow thinking.

"Maybe next time calm down and think rationally before you try to engage someone in argument."
I am thinking rationally, and I can see you're an asshole. lol.

"only self-centered women see leagues; "
What you have the nerve to talk about me being irrational. Where did this come from? The fact I told you that looks is also a factor women look at? Then that would also mean men are self-centered too. Again, you douchbagness is showing.

[Sara413]

Honestly, most men when choosing a partner to actually spend his life with rather than just fuck for a night would choose a woman with a great personality and similar interests who's average looking over a 10 with a shitty attitude or boring personality. Just like most women.

Then there are assholes like you, of bith genders, who just assume everyone thinks the same way they do and think it's normal to value looks over personality or personality over looks to such a degree that the latter doesn't matter as long as the former is there.

Most people are not like you. Most people want a partner they're attracted to physically and who shares their interests and values and has a compatible personality.

But hey, you just keep right on living in your rigidly gender boxed little world. I'm sure it's working out suuuuuuper well for you.

[Nuqood]

@Sara413 No, they wouldn't, because you hear guys complain about their fat, ugly wives who let themselves go all the time. You say these kinds of things because you're somewhat attractive, but realistically get fat and let yourself go and your husband will hate you.

No man values personality over looks; If I'm an asshole for giving my honest POV from a man's perspective, then you're an asshole since you're doing the same thing I'm doing. It is working super well for me, thanks. Come talk to me when you're mid-30, divorced, and bitter like most of the loser feminist chicks both on here and in real life. I want to try ad hominem attacks.. let's see.. you look like you don't fuck in any way but slow and missionary.

[Nuqood]

TL;DR : Women are a reflection of their man and pretty much copy everything he does anyway, so why the fuck would I give a shit about personality when they're just going to end up doing what I want because they like me so much?

[Sara413]

Hahaha wooooowwwwww... this is just sad and pathetic. Yeah, you're right... no guy anywhere ever cares about a woman's personality, values and interests. Only looks. And that's why men get married, because surely making a lifelong commitment to grow old with someone you value solely for their looks is a logical thing to do...

[Nuqood]

@Sara413 Most marriages are female initiated, meaning women bitch about marriage until it happens. What's sad is how coddled you've been throughout your life that you can't see any other perspective other than your own. You've been brought up to think that men around you give a shit about your limited interests and hobbies when they were talking to you and like you weren't the one pushing for a relationship with any guy you saw 'fit' for you. I'll tell you something you haven't been told enough: Shut the fuck up; nobody cares about your feelings.

[Sara413]

Alright there, Champ...

[RandomUsername3464]

I don't mean to barge in and resurrect this old stuff, but I decided to browse this again and I just want to say thank you for saying what needed to be said. Too many people here clung to their stereotype memes and kept shouting down what us guys wanted to say. Thank you.

[RandomUsername3464]

The comment I just made was directed at @Nuqood

[Anonymous]

"If you really are "nice", you don't need to tell everyone that. They know!"

That's not true at all. Some people just want to be served on a silver platter, and they will not appreciate you no matter what they do. Yeah, I get it - if you see those types of people, you need to just move on and forget about them. But women these days tend to congregate on the Internet and partake in a nice-guy bashing fest, not realizing that they do a horrible of separating the false ones from the true ones. I don't label myself as one, because I know the stigma that comes attached with it these days.

I'm not one of "those guys". But I'd say that something is very wrong with society these days if the Internet can go on endless nice-guy bashing fests, and nobody wants to confront the fact that there are many women out there who simply do give decent guys a hard time. But women have the power in this situation these days, so opinions like mine will simply be ignored or ridiculed.

[crystalt70]

Agreed!

[ras144]

"There are many women out there who simply do give decent guys a hard time."
So you think men deserve to get fucked just because they're assholes? Well, I guess restaurants deserve 5 stars for having edible food and no roaches.

[ras144]

"There are many women out there who simply do give decent guys a hard time."
So you think men deserve to get fucked just because they're NOT assholes? Well, I guess restaurants deserve 5 stars for having edible food and no roaches.

[Opinion Owner]

@ras144 "So you think men deserve to get fucked just because they're assholes? Well, I guess restaurants deserve 5 stars for having edible food and no roaches. "

I never said that. You did. You are clearly very rattled by anyone that disagrees with you.

[SIGguy]

Yes, of course. I just got in a tiff with her, earlier. She's just looking for a fight. Ignore her.

[ras144]

"You are clearly very rattled by anyone that disagrees with you."
No, I'm just trying to figure out your thought process.
1). There's also a lot of guys who give decent girls a hard time, so what's your point?
2). If you haven't noticed, the title said Nice Guys/GALS. It's just that guys are guilty of showing this behavior more-so than women, so they're more talked about.

"But women these days tend to congregate on the Internet and partake in a nice-guy bashing fest, not realizing that they do a horrible of separating the false ones from the true ones."
And how sure are you that you can tell the fake ones from the real ones? Because two-faced people know how to keep up an appearance.

SIGuy, you're just mad that you can't justify your bullshit double standard. And no, merely having a penis doesn't justify it.

[Opinion Owner]

"No, I'm just trying to figure out your thought process."

The fact that you have insulted and harassed multiple people in this thread proves otherwise, my dear.

"1). There's also a lot of guys who give decent girls a hard time, so what's your point?"

But I never denied that, unlike you, who came on here and resorted to the most stereotypical reflexive insults possible because poor crybaby you felt threatened.

"2). If you haven't noticed, the title said Nice Guys/GALS. It's just that guys are guilty of showing this behavior more-so than women, so they're more talked about."

I noticed the title. Can you prove that guys are more guilty than women of this? No, you can't, besides making snarky comments and labeling others with sweeping, sexist generalizations.

"And how sure are you that you can tell the fake ones from the real ones? Because two-faced people know how to keep up an appearance."

That makes no sense at all. It's like you want to have your cake and eat it too.

[SIGguy]

@ras144 What I posted is what is known as a self-evident truth. YOU'RE just pissed because you're too immature and full of yourself to believe it. No such thing as leagues, unless you're superficial, and no one is obligated to be nice to anyone, only polite. Continue to post antagonizing remarks, I will continue to report you.

[SIGguy]

@ras144 And by the way, I'm not making about my penis, you are. You're resorting to childish tactics to win a debate. And I'm not establishing a double standard, you are. I'm simply pointing out that people, like yourself, preach about the "friend zone", but if or when you become single parents ("single moms" is the term I used above), you forget everything you talked about and you groan about how "oh, so mean" people are for not wanting to date you. You turned that guy/girl (guy in this case) down because you didn't find them attractive. If anyone's setting a double standard, you are. You're the reason few support Feminism.

[SIGguy]

I flagged her, bro. It's okay. Now, if you'll excuse me I have some sins I must atone for.

[ras144]

"The fact that you have insulted and harassed multiple people in this thread proves otherwise, my dear."
Wow, so merely commenting on people's comments is harassment in your eyes? Oh well, I'm sorry I "threatened" you. Lmfao. I keep forgetting some people are just over-sensitive like that.

[ras144]

Word of advice, if you don't want people "harassing" or "threatening" you, don't write comments on the internet. That or grow thicker skin. But I'll leave you alone since you're very sensitive.

Also SIGuy, I should flagging you since you're the one bugging me on another person's comment. lol Don't you think it's childish and immature to not mind your business.

[Opinion Owner]

@ras144 "Wow, so merely commenting on people's comments is harassment in your eyes? Oh well, I'm sorry I "threatened" you. Lmfao. I keep forgetting some people are just over-sensitive like that. "

Yes, it is harassment when you act like a whiny little crybaby and insult people endlessly, then get upset when people respond back to you. The only over-sensitive one here is you, get over yourself you arrogant little brat.

[Opinion Owner]

@ras144 "Word of advice, if you don't want people "harassing" or "threatening" you, don't write comments on the internet. That or grow thicker skin. But I'll leave you alone since you're very sensitive."

Mighty tough words from some bitter girl with a massive chip on her shoulder that can't handle a dissenting opinion. You can't handle a dissenting opinion so you barge into every discussion possible and then whine when people disagree with you.

"Also SIGuy, I should flagging you since you're the one bugging me on another person's comment. lol Don't you think it's childish and immature to not mind your business. "

This is MY comment section, he can comment here if he wants to. You can't tell anybody what to do. Not only are you a bitter girl with a massive chip on her shoulder, and a crybaby, you are also a spoiled holier-than-thou keyboard warrior who thinks you can point the finger at others for something you do yourself. You are a vile person.

[SIGguy]

Respect.👊

[SerUmbras]

This. This concept has made me rethink myself numerous times. And you know what? It makes sense. And when you accept it, you find yourself totally able to deal with the supposed rejections.

A simple smile on your face and a "have a nice day" can make some people's days. Try it next time you're in a good mood at the supermarket. Smile, engage in small talk (I mean hella small - talk about the weather, something any human being can relate to) and you'll see them just light up.

Points 3 and 5 sum this up perfectly. The other ones almost don't need to exist. You should just be nice and not expect anything from it. And the world gives you lemons, make lemonade son. And share that lemonade, don't be a dick.

[aniemist]

I think your points are valid, and I think there are nice people out there, ones that act as you should but really don't expect anything for acting the way they should.

It is also my belief that there should be at least the occasional acknowledgment for these people, its nice to be appreciated after all. The world doesn't owe them anything for acting as they should, but it would certainly be one of the nicer things that could be done for them.

In relationships I think being nice is good, but agree that you shouldn't expect anything special for doing something you should be doing anyway, if you really care for each other then being nice should be natural.

Lastly remember that everything you feel and know in this world is largely informed by what you have learned and how it has shaped your perspective.

This was a good take.

[TheSkaFish]

The problem I have with society and women, though, is that instead of getting something for being good, people actually get stuff for being bad. If you are an arrogant asshole and go around acting like you are "better than" all those nice people, you are "cool" and everyone loves you for it. If you are a scumbag who lives for your "rebel" image, who celebrates your trashy, tasteless, low-brow lifestyle, and showing that you are more "badass" and "tougher" than those weak nice people, you are "cool" and women throw themselves at you all day every day. This is what I don't like. People are rewarded generously for being rotten on purpose. What if I don't want to be rotten? What if that doesn't feel good, and I want to be pleasant instead because I like it when people are pleasant to me? What if I want to have some taste in my life? That just automatically means I am weak, sexless, and boring? This is what angers me.

[RandomUsername3464]

@TheSkaFish I agree with everything you said. But I'm at the point in my life where I just accept that nothing is going to change. Things have been this way for a while, fish. And what disturbs me even more than what you pointed out, is two things: A) That women think that other women who don't follow the trends are "betraying" other women and B) That if guys like me or you complain about how things are even a bit, then we are "losers" and shedding "male tears" and stuff like that. The conversation is being hijacked by hateful people. It's wrong to hate women, it's wrong to reward people for being jerks and it's wrong to hate on nice guys who feel alone and sad. This circus of bashing nice guys on the Internet just shows how much we have ALL degenerated in our behavior.

[TheSkaFish]

@RandomUsername3464 yeah, I think that ultimately, you are right. It really has been this way for a long time now and change is unlikely. I know I gained nothing from complaining about this all day, and I know that the way things turned out was my fault and my fault alone, but still, it just hurts knowing that if only I had been confident instead, it could have gone a lot differently.

[RandomUsername3464]

@TheSkaFish Confidence alone does not work, from what people tell me. You need to have the total package. Don't be so hard on yourself. Yes, it's true that both me and you gain nothing by venting about this all day (besides letting off some steam), but I have noticed that there seems to be some type of concerted effort to get guys to take all the blame in every situation. Nobody in their right mind would suggest that everything could be a girl's fault these days, because most socially aware people would know the ridicule and rejection they would face as a result.

[black_skinny_jeans]

I just want to say that number 3 is spot on except that there should be boundaries- what are you willing to do for other people- it's okay as long as you're not letting them walk over you. Some guys think if they do a trillion favors for a girl- be it small or big favors- she's gonna like him and that she HAS to say yes to him.
In reality, it's stupid because he's doing all that stuff for her just to get something from her. This mindset is wrong on so many levels, but the basic error in here is that the guy doesn't have repsect for him or the girl. He could give her the moon and she still won't like him because, sometimes, girls take advantage of this situation and simply use the guy for doing favors for them, she doesn't respect him.

[LittleSally]

BEST

TAKE

EVER!

.. honestly I've met many guys like this... And they always blame someone else and they're always bitter because the hot girl next door doesn't find them attractive and they want only her -because she's hot... But they don't even know her. Hahaha

onegentlemansperspective.files.wordpress.com/.../leonardo-gif1.gif

[RationalMale]

Hmm. Part of the problem is, many people, especially men, are basically brought up being told that you should be nice to girls and then try to go out with them "but be friends first." It's a gigantic lie that messes people up. So then they sit down and try to reconcile what's wrong with the world with what they've been taught.

And two, being "nice" is just a horrible thing to be to anyone you're interested in. It's a kiss of death. It's the opposite of attractive. Be flirty, be brash, be witty, don't be nice. Do you see James Bond being "nice" to the women he sleeps with?

[madhatters4]

why do you assume that nice guys are any of the above things? I'm a nice guy, I know it and people who know me know it. I don't talk about it, I don't expect things as a result

being kind, thoughtful, caring, loving OR NICE is a characteristic trait. People who moan and complain aren't necessarily not nice but maybe they feel like their kindness goes unrequited. Now to me that is kind of lame but it doesn't change the fact that the person may still be nice.

[TheSkaFish]

For me, it's not necessarily so much that my kindness goes unrequited as it is this: I actually got along with those girls. It WASN'T just me wanting to get with a hot woman that I had nothing in common with and couldn't talk to. I had more to talk about with these girls than anyone I've seen on the dating sites and I could talk to them better than anyone I've ever met when I've gone out. We could talk, we could laugh, we could share thoughts that went deeper than the surface. And my looks aren't that bad. So if the looks aren't in the way, and we can actually have a real conversation, then why can't it work? How much more do I need to be good enough?

[madhatters4]

It's an interesting issue and certainly one I've had "nice guy" friends mention. I think a big issue is that if you do enter that friend zone, women often don't want to lose that friendship. they then see a potential relationship as a friendship killer. OR they simply don't see that platonic friend as a romantic option whereas men don't usually seem to have that conundrum... all that said there is no reason and it's not fair to kind of get angry at women about it. I've dated women that I became friends with first. I've also had the scenario you mentioned occur.

[TheSkaFish]

Well, it gives me some hope that you, and other men, have managed to date women that you started out as just friends with. I guess you never know what could happen.

What gets me mad though, is that the idea of "you're just a friend" is essentially saying you are worthless as a man. It is writing off your masculinity, your potential, your future. Which wouldn't hurt at all from someone who didn't like me in the first place and vice versa. I'm sure there are women out there who think I'm a loser but if it's someone I can't really talk to, I couldn't care less. But from someone who acted like they cared, who acted like they enjoy you and believe in you? It hurts.

But I'm like, ok I'll improve because you're worth it and I want to improve anyway, even just for me. But they're like, no, I want to just keep you in the "loser" pile forever. It's a game of "kick the runt". That's what I hate. WTF? So because I didn't know how to be cool when we met, that means I can't ever learn to be?

[Someguy17]

@TheSkaFish I would suggest asking her on a date as soon as possible after you meet and know you're interested. The longer you take to ask, the more likely you are to get friend zoned. Women like the unknown and once they get to know you the mystery is gone.

Once you've dated them and made your physical intentions clear (even kissing) the friend zone is very unlikely if you're compatible. This doesn't keep you from having female friends either, as a matter of fact I think it makes the future friendships better because you've gotten all of the tension out of the way.

Also beware that some women that have you in the friend zone will take advantage of the fact you like them and string you along to use as an emotional punching bag, ego boost, or back up plan.

[TheSkaFish]

@Someguy17 , what would you advise for long distance relationships? The only women I've ever truly liked have had the unfortunate common trait of all living far away from me. Same continent, no language barriers or anything like that. But still all very far away, beyond driving distance or even a long distance train.

Also, I have looked for women in my area but I haven't found any around here that I like, either on OKC or POF, or at any of the hangouts I've gone to. And then when I think of the girls I've met on FB or other forums I've been a part of, there's no comparison... looks, personality, common interests, fascination, the long-distance girls best the local girls in every way so an LDR is my only chance.

[Someguy17]

@TheSkaFish I've only been involved in 1 LTR. It was a year and half section of a 6 year relationship and it only worked because we already had an established relationship. I don't think people are any better or worse no matter where you go and LTR's are only appealing because they build suspense and you're constantly trying to impress and put your best foot forward. Basically, if it's started and maintained as an LTR, then it has the element of fantasy.

Good women are difficult to find wherever you are (I'm sure good men are too.) For me it's a numbers game. The goal is to meet/talk to as many women as possible. Most will simply not suit you, but some will and those some are worth the effort.

[madhatters4]

agree about the long distance thing. it's very difficult to begin a relationship LD. I've only been in one and we'd been dating for a year already before she went away to study abroad

like someguy said, to avoid the friend zone it is necessary to make clear your intentions early on. some women will still consider dating a guy once he is a friend but most don't want to ruin the possibility of the friendship.

[crystalt70]

Very well said.

[Sara413]

"What gets me mad though, is that the idea of "you're just a friend" is essentially saying you are worthless as a man."

That's not it at all - it just means that the person values you as a friend, but is not sexually/romantically attracted to you. If you want to interpret that another way, that's your prerogative, but that's on YOU.

[Sara413]

And before you jump down my throat about this, just know - I have BEEN the friend in the "friendzone" so I know how much it hurts. But I valued my friend enough to tough it out and remain friends. Because I wasn't just being friends with him to try to fuck him or date him - I genuinely love and care about the guy as a person. It just so happened that for a time, that love was something more than platonic, but he did not feel the same way.

[ras144]

Sara413, THANK YOU. I also got friend zoned, but you also don't see me crying about it because I actually valued the friendship.

[Crimson811]

@TheSkaFish Not true, with my guy friend I like him but not enough to want to be in a relationship with him. Due to the fact we have no romantic chemistry. You should be happy she even wants to be friends with you. There are guys I wasn't even interested in being friends because I couldn't stand them. WAY too needy, and obsessive which got annoying really quickly.

[Anonymous]

I agree with the vast majoriy of this take.

The most important is who you choose.

I would consider myself like a very nice guy, but I didn't tried to go to clubs to try to date a sl*t or a party girl that had many relationship/sex partners before.

I found one sweet girl, really good looking, but still, has a great personality compared to 90% of our generation.

can't complain at all.

I would just add though, that another big reason why a lot of guys thinks like that, is when girls reject them, to try to hurt the guy's feelings a bit less, they will say things like:

Im sorry, I like you as a friend...

Im sorry, you are too nice for me...

and more...

If the girl was simply said: im sorry, you are a good friend, but you are not my type'', the guy would probably understand that its just because you are not interested in him.

[SIGguy]

I'm gonna get a couple things clear. First, attraction is part of chemistry, especially physical. Second, I'm not obligated, under any circumstances, to be nice to anyone, especially if they're in my face or busting my chops for no good reason. Besides, you preach to "nice guys", but if or when you become a single mom, the tables turn. Suddenly, you forget everything you've been preaching and rant about how it's so mean that no one wants to date the single mom. THIS IS EMPATHY, GET USED TO IT!!!

[SIGguy]

To clarify, no one is expected to be "nice", but you are expected to be "polite". HUGE difference.

[SIGguy]

@ras144 "Misogynist, misogynist", anyone that disagrees with you is a misogynist. Get over yourself!

[ras144]

No, just people who have an unreasonable hatred for women, like you.

[RandomUsername3464]

@ras144 Did you see what you wrote, yourself? It's like you can slap rules on others yet think they don't apply to you. And his comment made me feel bad when I read it first, but you are not better at all.

[SIGguy]

@RandomUsername3464 I apologize if I came off as offensive, was not intended. And I don't hate women, just people who label me because I dissented. That shit needs to stop. Everyone disagrees with everyone, that's just life. And no, RandomUsername3464, I'm not telling you this, that would just be preaching to the choir. I'm throwing it out there for ras144 to see, since she's made it evident that she's pugnacious and can't resist fights and drama.

[RandomUsername3464]

"Preaching to the choir" - Yeah, it's almost like people can tell I've been in too many Internet fights for my own good. But they've made me learn a lot. I try to avoid them whenever necessary, but it's like I carry that aura of disagreement with me everywhere I go. You both could have said what you did in very different ways. It just kills me that people could talk to each more civilly, and more could get done that way. Yet whenever people have a chance, they always resort to their stereotypical ways, and it just creates more resentment. Everyone has a choice.

[RandomUsername3464]

@SIGguy And I'm not singling you out for this. You have a right to your views. Take note of how almost everyone that disagreed with the take were responded to by people who were rather angry, and those people used many buzzwords to try to shut people down. That shouldn't be happening.

[The_Empty]

Yet another one of these takes? Do you people not get the irony of constantly complaining about people constantly complaining?

Oh, and, just to piss you off, always remember, feminists, men are not vending machines you out sex into and get a relationship out of!

[crystalt70]

Lol! Great response!

[GreatnessPersonified]

I agree with most of this, but
1. There are no such things as leagues. Everyone is a human being, and therefore in the same "league."
Leagues only matter to children, because a year difference makes a difference when you 10 to 14. It doesn't make a diff when you are 30 to 34, it's about the same.
If by league, you mean common interest, then I can agree.

2. true
3. true
4. true
5. true

[SIGguy]

My British stepfather, who played soccer (they call it football) in his younger years, is wed to my obese mother. Your argument is quite valid.