Women need to stop whining about 'nice guys'

[evenlift]

The root of the 'nice guy' problem

The 'nice guy' simply takes the conventional morality of altruism, the code of self-sacrifice, more seriously than other men do. The problem is, life requires self-assertion. Even basic survival itself requires enough selfishness to acquire food and water. The pursuit of romance and sex, too, requires self-assertion.

But, altruism has been promoted since the beginning of history. So, why has the 'nice guy' problem become so much worse now? The answer is that the culture has become more consistently altruistic in recent decades, one major manifestation being the rise of feminism (it is ironic that feminists rage against the 'nice guys' whom they have helped to create).

A typical feminist ad-hominem fallacy against 'nice guys'. Anything to avoid discussing substantive questions. And, by the way, not very 'nice' of the feminists, is it?

Why the 'nice guy' controversy infuriates women

The 'nice guy' is unattractive to women because of his passivity, and, yet, he is the embodiment of the morality that almost everyone was raised to believe. As such, women's disgust towards 'nice guys' makes women feel insecure in their world-view and indeed very guilty, which leads to anger.

"Did you just say the 'n'-word?"

The attempts to rationalize the disgust against 'nice guys'

One common claim is that 'nice guys' aren't really nice, because, if they were really nice, they would not expect anything in return for their niceness. This, indeed, is true, according to conventional morality. But, no one is really nice, apart from any person aiming for immediate suicide. Remember: even basic survival requires selfishness. But, since there is a spectrum of niceness, women should surely prefer the 'nice guy' as the best alternative to celibacy. The fact that they don't illustrates the fact that this is just an attempt to rationalize the contradiction between their ethics and their sexual desires.

Another claim is that 'nice guys' believe that 'niceness' should be enough to earn a woman's affections. Even if they did believe that, the question would still arise, why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do? Whatever the lack of 'niceness', real or imagined, of the 'nice guys', will anyone dare to claim that the 'nice guy' is more evil than the rapist or the murderer?

This murderer got female attention after he stopped whining and started killing. I wish that were a sick joke and not the truth.

The solution to the 'nice guy' problem

The solution is the rejection of the false morality of altruism and the teaching of the true morality of selfishness, which means doing what is objectively in one's self-interest, neither sacrificing others to oneself nor oneself to others. The altruists tell us (with devastating effect, as in the above example) that that is not possible: either one tolerates being murdered, assaulted or cheated on, or one murders, assaults or cheats, right? Wrong, of course.

In a rational world, the more selfish men would receive more romantic interest, and, even in this irrational world, I, as a truly selfish man, receive plenty of romantic interest. The trouble, in fact, is finding a woman worthy of reciprocation, in other words a truly selfish woman.

[XRabbitHeartX]

I see more guys whining about "nice guys" than women. Being a nice person is NOT a bad thing. No healthy minded girl purposely goes for guys who treats her like shit. People need to get this bizarre mentality out of their heads that we as women are constantly on the prowl for guys who aren't nice. Actually we very much like "nice" guys who have positive attributes BUT that's not enough to make us feel a romantic connection. Chemistry and attraction doesn't appear just cause you're a nice person. If that was so then I wouldn't be single right now.

The problem here is many guys who have been rejected get angry and then assume every guy who dates a girl who doesn't like him is somehow a "asshole" or bad guy. Reality is MANY guys are nice people. There are far more nice guys than assholes so likely the girl who is supposedly dating all the "assholes" is in reality not actually doing that but you as the guy assume he's a asshole just cause you didn't get a chance to date her. It's a typical ego thing that I've noticed guys do. They make other guys out to be terrible just for not having a shot with a specific girl and then blame all women for not liking "nice guys".

The issue here isn't women. It's men who can't face rejection and automatically assume it's the GIRL's fault for naturally not feeling romantic feelings towards him. Heaven forbid she just doesn't feel attraction that strong towards you and then it's assumed she goes for assholes all the time and that her preferences are to somehow date a dude who isn't nice just cause you are nice... I'm pretty sure the humor in all this is clear.

[evenlift]

It's clear that you didn't bother to read my myTake. I actually do address many of the points you raise.

[XRabbitHeartX]

"why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do"

That very statement kinda proves to me you are no different than the guys I'm addressing in my opinion. If you read my opinion clearly then you'd see how I was challenging you on many of your points and yes I did actually read everything.

[evenlift]

You really haven't read my myTake. If you had, you would know that I reject niceness as a false morality. I advocate selfishness as the true morality.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Throughout your myTake you made it seem like being nice is a bad thing which it isn't. You're no different than any other guys complaining about "nice guys".

"The 'nice guy' is unattractive to women.."
"women's disgust towards 'nice guys"
"women should surely prefer the 'nice guy'... The fact that they don't"
"why is 'niceness' such a turn-off "

Yeah you really seem to be just like the guys I described in my answer which you can't seem to formulate anything to other than me "apparently" not reading your MyTake (which yet again I actually did).

[evenlift]

The bulk of your response is actually against nice guys, not against guys who 'complain' about nice guys. Indeed, my article is not a complaint against nice guys, but against women who whine about nice guys.

If you did read my myTake, then your response doesn't show it at all.

I've already explained why being nice is bad. You have no rebuttal.

[XRabbitHeartX]

No. My response is against whiney guys who believe that being nice is somehow a bad thing and act like any girl who rejects them does so because she likes assholes.

I don't agree with your stance at all and therefor responded with my opinion. If you don't want people's opinions then why post things on here.

[evenlift]

You are now confused about what you yourself are complaining about. Are you complaining about nice guys? Or about guys who are against being nice?

This is my myTake. If you don't want to address my points, go and make your own myTake. That would be the proper way to act. I do want people's opinions, provided that they actually address what I have said, instead of constituting in effect their own myTakes.

[XRabbitHeartX]

NO I'm not complaining against nice guys... why would you even think that? I clearly said why being nice is actually a good thing and have constantly been arguing against you deciding that for some reason we as women don't like nice guys when in reality we do. I did address your points in fact I even made the effort to quote you several times. Your excessive usage of saying how women apparently don't prefer nice guys is very well explained in my answer and nicely correlates to my message that it's all about ego and how some guys can't deal with rejection so you come up with lies that women somehow don't like nice guys. I'm sure you can comprehend this.

[evenlift]

I've addressed the "he's not really a 'nice guy'" meme already. Again I say, actually read my myTake.

Why would I use "women don't like nice guys" as an explanation why I might get rejected, when I myself have clearly said that I am not a nice guy? You're utterly confused. Again I say, actually read my myTake.

[XRabbitHeartX]

I'm not talking about whether a guy is truly nice or not. You did not address anything you claim you did. You are the one repetitively saying how women dislike nice guys not me and I proved to you how that mentality is downright wrong and inspired by aggression to getting rejected.

Again I say, actually read MY answer and stop using "you didn't read myTake" as your default answer when you can't come up with something.

[evenlift]

You didn't prove anything. You just stated it, while ignoring my points.

I address what you say, as empty as it is, while you do not address my points on what is, after all, my myTake! I've already suggested to you what you should do.

[XRabbitHeartX]

So you're telling me you addressed in your mytake how women actually like nice guys?

"The 'nice guy' is unattractive to women.."
"women's disgust towards 'nice guys"
"women should surely prefer the 'nice guy'... The fact that they don't"
"why is 'niceness' such a turn-off "

?

[evenlift]

Addressing a point is not the same as agreeing. I don't require you to agree with me (though of course I hope that people would agree with me). However, I do require you either to rebut or to concede, either of which would constitute addressing the point.

[XRabbitHeartX]

You went into your myTake assuming a incorrect notion due to the reasons provided in my answer. You're believing a fallacy and can't grasp someone disagreeing with it or telling you why you're wrong in your way of thinking. I'm here explaining to you why women like nice guys and you just go on and on about your MyTake and how you're the right one here for assuming stupid things about women and we like and don't like in men. I'm done this is clearly going nowhere.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Once again the male ego at play completely unwilling to see how their ego is blinding them from understanding something valuable about women and how we think. Make perfect sense.

[evenlift]

You don't explain anything. You just state it.

[XRabbitHeartX]

You can't see how I'm explaining anything in my answer? It makes sense then I guess why you can't comprehend anything I write when you can't even comprehend what a explanation is.

[evenlift]

Why would my 'ego' come into it? Do I have to repeat that I am not a nice guy? Have you still not read my myTake?

Don't imply that women always know about women better than men do. Knowledge is objective. Would you choose a female non-doctor over a male doctor, the next time you need medical help?

[evenlift]

You're not explaining. You're just stating, and then implying that, because you're a woman, you must surely know more about women than any man could.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Just cause you're not a "nice guy" doesn't mean you can decide for all women that we don't like nice guys. It doesn't work that way and you're literally just proving my point that a guy's ego is what leads him to often believe this "girls don't like nice guys" bullshit.

Knowledge is objective but that doesn't mean all knowledge is correct. You think you got all women figured out and can't stand someone telling you that you're wrong. Like it or not but yes I do know more about how females think and how our preferences are cause I'm a woman myself. I don't pretend like I got all guys figured out and know their brains. I'm too rational to realize I can't tell how guys think/feel considering how I'm not a guy.

[XRabbitHeartX]

You can't make decisions for me and my female peers. Especially not deciding something like how we're apparently not into nice guys. Sorry but you don't have that authority to tell me and other women how we are supposed to think and what we are supposed to like and dislike. It doesn't work that way and never will. You don't own us nor decide for us how we should think.

[evenlift]

I'm not deciding. Women are deciding. I am reporting the decisions. Why would my 'ego' have anything to do with it? As I say, I am not a nice guy.

On the contrary, I love being corrected. Indeed, as a result of having been corrected, I have radically changed my fundamental views, which is something that very few people experience.

There we go. You now admit that you believe that knowledge doesn't really exist. On that basis, then, why debate the matter at all? Why didn't you start by saying, "I'm a woman. You're a man. Therefore you are wrong"? That does leave the question, though, of what you could have said if I were a woman too. And it also poses the question why you think you are qualified to talk about male 'egos'.

[evenlift]

As I say, I'm not deciding. You're deciding, and I'm reporting the decisions.

You are utterly confusing different concepts here.

[XRabbitHeartX]

How are women deciding when it's men who are constantly wining about how girls like assholes? Women have on many occasions stated the very same things I have stated in my answer which is that romantic connections is subjective and has nothing to do with just how nice you are. Same counts for guys as well. If being a nice woman was all guys wanted then explain why so many girls are single? Clearly being nice isn't the issue but rather the fact that some people can't accept that there's more to love than how nice you are and that it's not a reflection of how much someone values "niceness" but rather how much they value chemistry and their overall connection with someone.

I have no issues with guys making arguments about women and how we think but then they should at least be prepared to put their biases aside and consider a woman's answer when explaining basic principles like the nice guy thing. I've had guys made me realize things before by providing arguments and that has often made

[XRabbitHeartX]

me see things in a different light when a guy explained things better from his view point. Therefor it is valuable to debate on these things but then both parties need to listen.

Did I say all guys here have ego's? Did I pretend like all guys are the exact same and have the same feelings? Nope I didn't. You however went ahead and made blank statements grouping all women together saying how we think and feel. I didn't do that in my answer and would never group together all men.

[evenlift]

Because facts are facts. If, for example, a guy dates only blondes, that is his decision to make. But, that doesn't mean that his claim "I like brunettes only" shouldn't be challenged. The fact that I report women's decisions isn't a claim that they shouldn't make their own decisions.

I've never said that a nice woman is all a guy wants.

I repeat: I've already addressed the "niceness is a necessary but not a sufficient condition" meme.

You explain nothing. You merely state, while ignoring my points on what is my myTake.

There's nothing wrong with generalizing, as long as the generalization is true. "Don't generalize" is a symptom of a concept-hating, knowledge-hating mentality.

[XRabbitHeartX]

But you are incorrectly thinking women somehow dislike nice men because we can't always end up falling for the nice guy as because explained thoroughly in my answer it takes more than niceness to be romantic with someone. It's hardly a generalization and this whole notion is only believed by very few angry men who cant' accept that they've been rejected cause they're oh so nice and how dare a woman not see it. There's no "truth" in this bizarre "generalization". It's not even existent in the average person's life. Most people understand and comprehend that women are also entitled to want more than "niceness" and that not all guys are assholes for getting the girl they wanted.

[evenlift]

I addressed the "niceness is a necessary but not sufficient condition" meme in my myTake.

You're contradicting yourself. I believe that women dislike nice guys, and I am proudly un-nice. You yourself previously made reference to men who criticize nice guys. Get your story straight.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Did I say I'm not making reference to men who criticize nice guys? That's been my story since the start. You did certainly not address that issue and if you did you address it you did so by just making the claim that women dislike nice guys which is bogus. If niceness is necessary to attract a partner then isn't your whole story contradictory?

[evenlift]

You can't keep track even of what you yourself have said: "this whole notion is only believed by very few angry men who cant' accept that they've been rejected cause they're oh so nice".

How difficult is it for you to understand? I don't say that niceness is a necessary condition but not a sufficient one for a man to get a woman. I am pointing out the fact that that is what women say in their attempts to rationalize their rejection of nice guys. I know the truth, which is that, on the contrary, niceness is a turn-off.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Niceness is not a turn off.

[evenlift]

My myTake illustrates how you're just wrong about that.

[Dipsy]

I think it's basically that nice guys have very low confidence and aren't fun to be with (aka: boring). Fun and confidence are the main things which attract women I think, and nice guys lack that. The 'niceness' of the personality is to mentain the relationship, not to establish one.

[XRabbitHeartX]

It really doesn't. All I see is someone doing the exact same thing like I explained in my answer. Taking their anger out for being rejected on women and making it seem like we don't enjoy nice guys when in reality being nice is a very good trait to have and any girl can appreciate it on a guy she is also attracted to.

@Dipsy
I agree with that but I've definitely met "nice" guys who were fun and had confidence too. If you are nice and have a fun side to you then it's a win-win personality wise. And you're right it is good to be nice in the long run when maintaining the relationship. I like how you said that.

[666threesixes666]

"No healthy minded girl" some seek chaos instead of zen.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@666threesixes666

Well then maybe stop going for those kinda girls then...

[BertMacklinFBI]

touché my dear

[XRabbitHeartX]

@BertMacklinFBI Thank you <3

[evenlift]

You are so confused. I don't claim to be a nice guy. In fact, I proudly admit that I am not. Apparently you have some quite severe short-term memory loss.

[XRabbitHeartX]

Seems like you are the confused one. If 11 other people comprehend my answer and get what I'm trying to say then maybe you are the problem here and not me.

[HikerDude]

While I largely agree with you, I do think you (and many girls) miss the point about why guys focus on the nice guy/bad boy dichotomy. You must understand that your perspective on dating is different from ours. While you correctly cite a lack of chemistry as the problem many guys encounter with rejection, you don't really explore *why* that lack of chemistry exists. And this is why guys believe in this dichotomy, because we *do* understand what leads to a lack of chemistry. The biggest reason for a lack of chemistry is precisely because guys are too nice and not 'edgy' enough when interacting with a girl. Most girls are attracted to guys who are a bit wild, guys who aren't afraid to push the envelope or tease her a bit. Nice guys generally don't do these things because we've been taught by parents and society to be gentlemanly towards girls, that girls respond to guys who are chivalrous and caring. We only find through hard experience that things don't work that way.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

Chemistry is not something you can explain. There's a reason why we fall for one person over the other in many situations whether male or female that can't be explained. There's no "lack of chemistry" because a guy is nice. This is false lies spread by bitter men who can't accept that chemistry and love is complex. I don't feel a lack of chemistry cause a guy is too nice. I feel a lack of chemistry because the romantic feelings simply isn't there. IF it was true then explain why MANY guys I've dated were "nice guys". Explain then why MANY girls are in relationships with decent men who are "nice". The amount of girls who actually go for "bad guys" all the time or happen to be involved with one are not nearly as many as guys would like to believe.

[HikerDude]

*You* may have perceived these guys as "nice guys," but I'd bet they were pretty edgy when they met you, like they flirted with you in a pretty forward way and projected a don't-give-af attitude. In other words, I'd bet they didn't act overtly gentlemanly, which is what most nice guys have been told is the key to interacting with girls.

Yes, I know that chemistry has many facets, but the only one that is an absolute dealbraker is "game." That's why there are plenty of gentlemanly guys who are good-looking, tall, smart, and athletic who rarely date. I know plenty of these guys and I'm one of them. Guys like us have a very limited appeal, whereas the guys who are edgier succeed with girls at a much higher rate regardless of their looks. So that's how we know that "game" and being edgy is the key to developing chemistry, because we see that as the very thing that separate successful guys from the perpetually dateless.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude Actually no... they didn't. See that's the problem. Too many guys think they have women ALL figured out and know absolutely exactly what we go for. Reality is that most of my ex's were the typical nice guys from the start. Even my last ex who hurt me a lot at the end was a great guy to me at the start when we met. None of my ex's had this "edge". Why it's so difficult for guys to grasp that plenty of decent nice guys get girlfriends goes beyond me when real life clearly proves it wrong. IF women were SO drawn to "bad guys" then basically all women would be dating bad guys and be in struggling relationships and that is obviously not the case or even half true. Plenty of people are in happy, healthy relationships with great partners. I see it all around me and I'm sure it won't take long to see happy relationships when asking people on this website too.

[HikerDude]

But why do you think it is that what you say doesn't resonate with the vast majority of guys? The simple fact is that it doesn't resonate because it's not what we've experienced in our lives.

My three males friends and I are all good guys, we're all at least 6' feet tall and athletic, and we're all academically successful guys. Every one of us has ambition and drive to be better. So why do most of us struggle to get dates while unemployed band guys who hang around our campus 'scene' are swimming in girls? The reason is that they're edgy, they're seen as a bit wild and unpredictable. My friends and I are seen as Golden Retrievers, because we're nice and predictable and generally well-mannered. Most girls aren't attracted to us because of that. So every one of us has tried to act edgier and more unpredictably around girls because we *know* that's what sparks their interest. If what we'd been doing worked, none of us would be hurting for dates.

I've confirmed all of this with our...

[HikerDude]

... female friends, who--after we forced them--admitted that we did have a vibe as 'nice boys' who didn't project a sexual vibe. I wish that girls went for guys like us, but it is what it is. Most guys like me have been mislead by parents and teachers about girls as we were growing up, and now we're having to unlearn those behaviors. Chivalry has never gotten me or any of my friends anywhere with girls, period. Most nice guys have experienced this same thing, which is why we believe what we believe.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

OK let me turn this around on you. I don't think I'm unattractive, I'm graduating real soon in a degree and I have a lot of good qualities. Why do I struggle to get dates? Is it because I'm "too nice" and guys don't like nice girls? Do I whine constantly because I can't find guys and claim they all like "bad girls" and don't like nice "non edgy" girls? No... No I don't. Why on earth some guys think they are the ONLY ones struggling to date and find partners goes beyond me too. The only reason you and your friends are struggling to find partners (which by the way is a NORMAL thing that many people struggle with) is because you just haven't met the right girl for you. Same reason as to why I'm single too and can't find a guy. I haven't found my right match yet. Do you see me making up shit about how all guys don't like nice girls. NO! You don't. Because I don't get my panties in a knot and judge a whole gender just cause I can't find a partner right now.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

Also since when has being a bit more "unpredictable" made you some "bad guy". Sorry but you can be a nice guy and be unpredictable at times. "Nice" guys aren't stagnant. Even "nice guys" can go through phases where they aren't doormats. I'm a nice girl and does that mean I don't sometimes stand up for myself or act a bit unpredictable? No it doesn't. Guys seem to be very confused about what a nice guy is and what a bad guy is.

"Most nice guys have experienced this same thing, which is why we believe what we believe"

Bullshit. You can't speak for ALL guys in the entire world. Once again I hate to break it to you but there are plenty of decent nice guys out there who have girlfriends. It's a convenient lie to believe it's not true and saves your ego as a guy I'd imagine but it's just blatant lies to make YOU feel better.
We like nice guys. But we also like guys we are attracted to and who we are compatible with. JUST like guys act too. End of story.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

Last question and this should be interesting.

If a girl who was really nice, kind and compassionate came to you and asked you out but you felt no chemistry with her and weren't attracted to her on any level ( no physical attraction... no sexual attraction... just nothing) would you still want to be with her? How many guys can 100% honestly tell me today that they are willing to have a girlfriend who they feel no attraction for?

If the answer is no, you won't go for her then congtratz you understand how basic attraction works and should then STOP blaming women for liking "bad guys" when you yourself won't date someone JUST based off how nice they are either. It goes both ways

[HikerDude]

Eh, what you wrote is very accusatory and not at all in the better traditions of open and respectful dialogue. Some of it is downright disrespectful, but that said, I'll play along anyways.

First of all, I don't actually believe that you struggle to find guys to date. If your profile pic is accurate, I'm sure you get plenty of attention from guys. The problem for *most* women is that they can't find that one, exact guy they really want. Because y'all have a hard time finding this specific person, girls often claim that they have a hard time dating, when in reality, they're actually having a hard time finding a man they might want to marry. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about simply getting dates at all. And you've actually proven my point about it in a roundabout way, because the fact that girls are so picky even when casually dating is the reason so many guys struggle in dating.

I've never advocated dating someone with whom you have no chemistry...

[HikerDude]

... but the difference is that many girls only feel chemistry with guys who make a good initial sales pitch. And if you're not one of those guys? If you're not a natural salesperson or entertainer, you get overlooked as a guy because girls won't give you a chance to display your better qualities. Then we have to hear those same girls complain that there are no good guys left. So this is how we end up with "game" and "pickup artists."

I see that you've also committed the fallacy so many girls commit in these debates, which is to conflate the concept of 'nice guys' with 'guys who have nothing to offer but niceness.' Most of us have much more to offer than that. I'm an athlete, I play varsity tennis, I'm a few hours away from a degree in geosciences, I have varied interests, I've traveled to four continents, I'm caring, and a good conversationalist. I have other things to offer, as do most of the more gentlemanly guys you'll meet. So to say that a girl would have to lower...

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude Sorry if whatever I wrote came across as disrespectful towards you personally. I wasn't trying to be accusatory (didn't even know that word exists, I'm Afrikaans so whenever I learn new English words I enjoy it) towards you as a person. Was trying to address the issue in a broad sense and men who believe these kind of lies as a whole.

Anyways, believe it or not but yes I actually struggle to "get" dates. Many guys I do get for a date lose interest or just end up telling me they are not looking for a relationship. I've accepted that the timing is just wrong for many and don't let it discourage me.

If you don't advocate people dating someone they don't feel chemistry towards them isn't it time you accept the problem isn't "women liking non nice guys" but more so women just not feeling it towards someone. In reality I've been rejected far more times than being asked out so I too had to realize that all guys can't feel chemistry with me simply cause I'm a "nice" girl.

[HikerDude]

... herself to date me because I have nothing to offer but niceness is false and ridiculous. There's plenty of substance there, it's just wouldn't be obvious if you met me in a bar at 2 am.

The reality is that nice guys are overlooked constantly regardless what we have to offer. That's why guys post articles like this one. Girls like yourself don't really understand this dichotomy because you don't see things from a guy's perspective. You and other girls may hold certain ideals internally, but guys are just going off of the actual behaviors we witness. So while some girls may say they like nice guys, the reality of who gets the dates dictates otherwise.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

" So while some girls may say they like nice guys, the reality of who gets the dates dictates otherwise."

But I just told you that many people are in happy relationships with "nice" guys. Why is it so difficult for you to comprehend that the world doesn't exist of only relationships with "bad guys" and girls. The percentage of girls who legit ONLY date bad guys is far below the rate you guys have convinced yourselves of. I've just told you that all my ex's were typical nice guys. All the guys my friends go for are normal, decent guys with good manners. Just cause those SOME girls don't want to go for you or your friends doesn't mean NO girl ever will. I'm sure you'll reject someone you're not attracted to right? So why be a hypocrite and blame women for apparently not liking "nice guys" when you yourself wouldn't ever date someone regardless of how nice they are if you don't feel the needed attraction?

[HikerDude]

No, I never said anything of the sort. I never said that 'nice' should be sufficient to create attraction, and I never said that all we have to offer, either. Girls always think that any guy who labels himself a nice guy has nothing else to offer, which is sad. Labels don't define a person.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

Clearly nice guys have something to offer considering how I've chosen to be with "nice guys" all my life.

[HikerDude]

I know that sexual attraction counts for a lot and it isn't generated by "nice" behavior. That's why I lift weights and take care of my appearance. In my experience, girls like guys who dress well, who are funny, and who are physically fit/have muscle. No girl ever got wet over a beer belly and a bad haircut.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

Yeah I'm sure guys don't get "wet" over a overweight woman with a bad looking appearance either. It's a two way street and has nothing to do with someone's niceness. I think we've established that a long time ago.

[HikerDude]

No, it wasn't really established at all, at least from my perspective. I made those statements because you seem to think that I'm under the delusion that "nice" creates attraction. I'm not, and that's what I was illustrating.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@HikerDude

So if being nice doesn't directly alone lead to being romantic attraction and you comprehend this then why say women don't like "nice guys". That's no different than me saying "guys don't like nice girls" because guys also reject nice girls sometimes too you know..

[Rufus335]

@XRabbitHeartX

I've noticed you sticking up for "nice guys" a lot. im doing a take tonight on "good guys" differences etc. i may message you for some input, but what i wanted to say is your view of the nice guys is actually what a good guy is. i guy who is honest about his wants. the nice guy will pay for every dinner, the good guy will allow girl to choose because it is her choice not his. the nice guy will insist because he beleives he is alpha and can provide for his mate. in actually he's sexist in the belief that he needs to court the woman impress her and take care of her.

she hates this because she's probably an independent woman herself and knows she doesn't need his help. he's coming off desperate when he want to seem nice.

he's so insecure he thinks he needs to buy or do things to win her affection instead of being himself which is what will make her most comfortable and make him most desirable.

basically to be a good guy is simple. be yourself

[Applefan1]

I see more women whining about "nice guys" than men. Just saying, that is what I have personally seen. Maybe you have seen different.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Applefan1 I don't see nearly as many on a website like this. Almost every day there is a guy saying how women don't like nice guys.

[Applefan1]

That is what women seem to love to say. All I am saying is is there has been a lot of anti nice guy stuff on GAG. Women saying how nice guys only want sex, how they are assholes and lots of other hurtful stuff and I think. NO!! not every nice guy is that! You are mis using the word nice guy. If we defend ourselfs we just get abused. It is the truth and I get very fed up with the women that do this to nice men. Just because I am nice to woman does not mean I want sex with you! I see worse stuff about nice men from women than I do from men. Just saying what I see.

[Applefan1]

I don't really agree with you. Every nice guy question posted on GAG has women saying very nasty things about nice men.

[HikerDude]

@Applefan1 Yeah, you hit the nail on the head. There seems to be this drive to castigate nice guys with every type of slander imaginable. I've seen some crazy-ass theories, like nice guys are only nice to get laid (why would a con artist use a gambit that always fails?) to nice guys are too nice to be normal (if you think nice is abnormal, I feel very sorry for your sad life).

The reality is that there are tons of guys in the world who've been raised to be respectful, productive caretakers of the world around us, but most of us are seen by women as being at the low end of potential mates because we don't project the same level of danger and drama as other guys. Girls are attracted to what they like; that's their prerogative. But I don't see why they need to try point a dirty finger at nice guys just for our own struggles in dating.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Applefan1

So do you just conveniently forget all the questions posted on here on why girls don't want nice guys and how girls are always going for the wrong guys and only want bad guys?

[Applefan1]

@HikerDude I agree with you entirely. While there are some guys just being nice to get sex or whatever there are tons of actually nice guys and a lot of women just push them to the side.

[Applefan1]

@XRabbitHeartX O for goodness shakes… no I don't. I could say you are conveniently forgetting about how many women do push actual nice men to the side. There are a lot of questions on why girls don't like nice guys and why girls always go for the bad guy. The point is SOME girls do go for the bad guy, some not all and then some girls just happen to attract a guy they think is good but turns out not to be. Those questions are posted because they are true for SOME girls. Not true for all girls though.

[Applefan1]

@XRabbitHeartX I would say you are conveniently forgetting what a lot of actual nice men go though from some women. What I said about how actual nice men get treated is true by some women. I also know that there are some bad men that pretend to be good men to. There is fault from both the male gender and the female gender when it comes to this.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Applefan1 I agree with you completely especially your last comment. But it's no one's obligation to date a guy/girl just cause they are nice. People who complain about this don't understand freewill. Everyone can date whoever the hell they want so if people complain about it, it literally makes no sense as by default no one signed a contract to be with you. If a girl picks a bad guy over a nice guy, it's her deal.

[Applefan1]

I agree it is no one's obligation to date anyone just because the person is nice. I never said it was. I never complain about that. However, at the same time there is no need for people to go out of their way to be mean and nasty when rejecting someone either. I know everyone can hate who the hell they want. LOL I am not complaining about that and never have. I am not sure what you are trying to say by this "it literally makes no sense as by default no one signed a contract to be with you"

If a girl dates a bad guy and actually honestly thought that he was good then I feel sorry for her, but if she dates a bad guy knowing he is a bad guy at the start then it is only her fault.

[CancerianMan81]

@XRabbitHeartX If being a nice woman was all guys wanted then explain why so many girls are single? cause most women are demonizing us men by stating that we are bitter because they won't let us have them because we are a nice guy we're not bitter when we start out when we ask you girls out we become bitter after the fact we ask you out seems like to me the PROBLEM is people are getting frustrated for the way their life is and I think it's because of being selfish when selfishness doesn't do anybody any good cause it always leaves out the thing that you want the most not just for yourself but for other people when your selfless you get more than you bargain for cause when you are doing for others your thinking of yourself more cause that person is going to give back to you what you gave to them that crates a win-win for everybody

[CancerianMan81]

@XRabbitHeartX it has to come with the fact that you have to be nice nothing else plays a role in being in a relationship yeah you have to have money to take care of each other cause you have to have food you have to pay bills and the such but the one PROBLEM i see with you women is your too damn negative because you think your not good enough for us NICE GUYS and if you believe that then you are what's standing in the way

[CancerianMan81]

us nice guys can adjust you but you got to want it for yourself and if you don't want it then I guess you won't have us

[CancerianMan81]

cause you won't get us any other way cause we have too much self respect to want to put up with such bullshit

[XRabbitHeartX]

@CancerianMan81 I don't think you understand anything I was saying. I was defending true nice guys saying plenty of women still want nice guys. I'm not the enemy dude. No need to make me out to be some bad person. I'm happily in a relationship with a "nice guy" and I don't have the energy to deal with negative people who attack me for no real reason other than for not liking my opinion.

[CancerianMan81]

and also that is another problem you women want more that's what is driving us NICE GUYS away cause you ain't never satisfied in this life you get it your damn self and work for it we have to cause you don't give us what we want and fuck this "PRIVILEGE" shit cause this is what is putting a wedge between everybody and I have had about enough of it it's been going on for to long and it NEEDS TO END!!!

[CancerianMan81]

I'm not against what your saying I'm just going on what my opinion is

[CancerianMan81]

and why everybody is having this problem in the first place

[CancerianMan81]

another thing is I'm not out to making you be a bad person

[CancerianMan81]

i'm just only trying to help

[CancerianMan81]

and if you don't think I'm trying to help then that's your problem

[XRabbitHeartX]

@CancerianMan81 Helping by being accusing and rude? How? Anyway I'm not going to deal with this. As mentioned, I dont have the time to deal with angry people. You are clearly emotionally charged and I'm not falling for bait.

[skykidx1]

Sorry the question is close so using you to voice my own thoughts. I do argee no heathy mind girl would stay with a dick but at the same time i think its more then that and here are 4 reason i girl would stay with a dick. 1. he's better off in life then most guy 2. She fall for him 3. No one wants to go through a break up my ex was afraid of it. So am i in a way but only if i lost you as a friend. 4. She not healthy mind aka insecure as hell. Next ill do boys so girls have always told me i seem like a genuine guy which i am but here are some reason i can't get a date or most guys can't get a date. 1. Your not not fun to be around which my new girlfriend pushes me to be social& makes me more fun. Who wants to be with a guy that sucks all the energy out of you. 2. you act or look like a fuckboy. No no fuck boy begone. 3. Your just not good with women or picking up on the fact they like you. 4. your insecure. 5. Your not where u should be in life. Aka no car or just no drive.

[AleDeEurope]

The problem is that "nice guys" believe that every woman has to fall for them because he's nice, that doesn't work like that.
The self-proclaimed "nice guys" are the equivalent of the vast majority of women today. They think that because they dress nice and have a vagina they are entitled to have men crawling for them, and it doesn't work like that.
No one likes someone that thinks they're entitled to something just because of who they are.

[TheOrangeBean]

I would say nice guys are actually the worst kind of guy. They're bitter, whiny, secretly hate on women and seem to feel entitled to attractive women just because they act "nice".

Elliot Rodger on your picture there is an excellent example of a self proclaimed "nice guy" who in reality was a creepy psycho. I guess the reason he got more attention after he started killing is because before he was just a creepy weirdo = no one likes that. There are however some weird, broken women out there who has fetishes for the worst kind of people and those are the women that noticed him after the killings. It's not like the normal beautiful blonde girls, who he say rejected him, started liking him after what he did.

Nice guys are not nice at all. They're fake. At least most of them. They are the ones that spread hate against women online, blame everything on feminism etc. Just because they are upset that being "nice" isn't enough to attract the women they want. And by the way - they are not even nice, they are insecure and lack confidence. There's a huge difference.

Also most often these "nice guys" aren't very physically attractive and when they also lack in the personality department they'll naturally have a hard time attracting women. There has to be something about a person that is attractive to attract other people whether that's physical beauty, personality or both. You can't expect that you'll get a lot of attractive women just because you act nice when you're at best average looking and are also really insecure and bitter. Sometimes even creepy.

"Nice guys" are also the kind of guy who'll give you nasty comments if you reject them. Especially on dating sites. They'll send you a sweet first message and when you don't respond (or do but just to tell them sorry you're not interested) they'll start sending you mean and bitter messages calling you bad stuff and telling you what you're missing out on, that he didn't even want you anyway etc. Just shows how fake and "not nice" they are. Do you think this kind of behaviour is attractive?

[evenlift]

It's not that being nice isn't enough. It's that being nice is actually a turn-off, as I explained.

Niceness requires insecurity and a lack of confidence. Pride is wrong, says conventional morality. Was Jesus proud? No, he was humble. He also never got laid.

I think the major rationalization, also implied by your response, can be translated as follows: "Nice guys aren't really nice. [Note: this is technically true. As I said, 100% niceness requires immediate suicide.] So, I'm going to go for really un-nice guys, while claiming I still want nice guys." But, obviously, if niceness really were a value, you would, as I say, go for nice guys, if you didn't stay celibate, which would be even more morally fitting.

[666threesixes666]

i'm charming, friendly, funny, and nice. women love me, it's not so black, and white. when it comes to dating, it's a bad idea to polarize these things so far. people will jump from 1 ship, be super nice, to the other ship where you think every chick likes it mean. some chicks like it mean.

[The_Empty]

Ah, I see, so, outward kindness is far worse than just being an outwardly abusive or violent asshole, because, with an outwardly nice person, years of rejection, insults, and being treated like dirt makes them bitter and resentful on the inside? Don't worry, it's all good, in fact, I'll admit, if I were more than a simple human, just to make you feel better, I would destroy and kill an entire city full of innocent people, how does that sound? Lucky I'm merely human and nothing else.

[skykidx1]

Niceness requires insecurity and a lack of confidence? Bs not only am a nice, respected guy i am very confident some may say maybe even to comnident.

[OpenClose]

You might be interested in this article from the UK: blogs.telegraph.co.uk/.../

Apparently girls weren't accepting men as "real men" unless they were willing to kill someone with a knife, and they would brag about their boyfriends' prison sentences.

The only point I have to make regarding "nice guys" is that there are plenty of girls who like men who are nice, and it's usually another factor keeping things from working. No self-respecting man should try to make himself more of a badass to attract women. Reject these girls. Don't tolerate that bullshit. I've explicitly rejected girls for saying a man is supposed to be an "alpha male."

I have little tolerance for those who would overlook a man's evil qualities because "at least he's a badass". And I despise any mentality that says a man should conform to this, or justifies it by saying "A woman is just looking for a good provider and protector". Oh really? Then I suppose women's purpose should be to stay at home and make babies, because men are attracted to "fertile women." Same basic principle.

I am going to continue to be my geeky, goofy self whenever possible, and I have managed to attract enough girls who like geeky, goofy guys, that I don't need to waste my time with girls who think I'm less of a man for being less of a stoic hard-ass.

I would much rather be a Bill Gates than a Kanye West. The nerd has changed the world as we know it into a better place, and healing Africa. The "badass" is basically a baby daddy to a bunch of random chicks, seems to think the world would be better if men were thuggish, and will be forgotten by the time the decade is up.

Men, be your best selves. If that is a iron-pumping body builder, pump iron. If that makes you a quirky scientist, change the world. If a woman thinks you are less than a man, you are allowed to tell her to fuck off while you keep being your best damned self.

[Anonymous]

I do not understand how you came to like any of those conclusions?
Feminism made guys nice?
Seriously? When did feminism ever make any guy nice, all it ever seems to make guys on here is angry. Rightly so in many instances, but still... definitely not nice.

And that the majority of women would date "cheaters, rapists, murderers". WTF?
What majority of women would ever in their right mind date a rapist/murderer?
I mean you are talking about sane women, and not crazy ones who write to inmates right? How do you think that is the norm?

I mean i get what your saying overall, but seriously? Those two assertions alone make your argument very hard to believe.

I mean i agree with what you said about altruism, but really i'd say it's a difficult world out there. That's the reality of it, and being "nice" in the self sacrificing way you have described isn't a good quality it instead makes you weak.
Weak because you spend your cash (which in this economy should be something your careful/considerate with) on people who don't need it, to be nice. You give your time and energy, again something that you should care more about, to people who again don't actually need it, all to be nice.
It's one thing to help someone in real immediate danger, or to help those in real need through charity. That's something to be admired. But to assist out of niceness, to give more than you have or even more than you need to on people who are completely capable and fortunate enough to do it themselves is just a person who seeks approval and validation from others. It's not endearing and it's not attractive. And at no time in history has it ever been either of those two things.

The difference can possibly be put this way, people like good guys not "nice" guys.

[evenlift]

I never said a majority of women would date rapists or murderers. But, vicious men like them do get far more female interest than nice guys do.

Conventional morality is altruism. It demands sacrifice. It is not a case of being 'too nice'. It is niceness as such, the conventional morality, that is the problem.

If you understand why altruism is a problem, then you should understand why feminism, which is a form of altruism, is a problem.

[Alecu]

Women nowadays are really selfish. I act nice because I like it and makes me feel good but they think I am some kind of doormat or stuff like that. They only want for themselves and you can't even explain to her that you like to be like this and this is the satisfaction that you get from a relationship.

But they only want it for their freaking selves. Annoys the crap out of me. Also if I am nice to you but I don't have a boner then it means I am just being nice, I am not nice because I want to have sex with you.

And if you think that I will get upset if you refuse then do it and see what happens, I will go for another girl.

In general I am a really carefree guy so I don't mind doing errands for her from time to time. Plus I get easily bored so I am willing to try new things. Heck even cooking together with her seems like fun.

But when I see her taking me for granted I will teach her a lesson enough that she understands it and remembers it. I start easily and gradually increase my punishment until she gets the point.

[evenlift]

If only they were selfish! They are in fact self-destructive, as are almost all men, though it manifests differently.

[lericah]

I think ultimately no one is altruistic. You want to know why I'm generally as nice as I can be? Because I want a better world and I want to be part of that better world. Besides that it's simply instinct, as humans our greatest survival instinct is our ability to work in large social groups and for that reason it is something that we often promote on a group and personal basis.

That said we are all also selfish on some level that's also one of the most core instincts. Selfishness is important I agree that it's something women whether consciously or not are seeking but they also want selflessness whether consciously or not. Extremity is rarely a correct view.

In my own experience I think the biggest result of mild selfishness is being assertive and thats honestly how you get noticed. It's not realistic to think that only the completely selfish get noticed and the selfless do not. I honestly think women are smarter then this simplification gives it and what your experiencing is the result of you being more assertive then others, committed to certain goals above those of the average person, and good old probability.

[evenlift]

Do not confuse altruism with benevolence. The fact that an act may benefit other people does not necessarily make it altruistic. If I act in my self-interest, I am being selfish. If I act to sacrifice myself to others, I am being altruistic. I benefit people by having a job, but it is not a sacrifice. It is a selfish act that happens to benefit other people. My employer benefits me by giving me a job, but he is not doing it as a sacrifice. It is a selfish act that happens to benefit me.

I myself said that 100% consistent altruism would require suicide, a point that few people reach. However, most people are very altruistic. Not a day goes by when almost everyone doesn't do acts because some other people allegedly need or demand them.

[Anonymous]

Basically whether a woman wants the honest to goodness bad boy or the nice guy, is her business in the same way its a man's to choose the highly intelligent Ph. D or the girl at the strip club with barely a HS education but great boobs. There, it seems, is this constant analysis of what we should or shouldn't want out of men or how a "real man" or heck, even a "real woman" is supposed to be defined. Literally none of this matters. You or 10 Harvard educated psychologists can analyze all you want and try to figure out the who's, why's, and what's of how relationships between the sexes work or are supposed to work, but all this girls only like bad boys and men only like big boobs business is irrelevant because there are nice guys who finish first and girls with non-existent boobs who are with the best of the best. What is the purpose, I often wonder, of writing takes like this or the hundreds of the same polls and questions of why we supposedly don't like this or that guy? What is writing an entire thesis on the matter going to change or influence as everyone is an individual when it comes to dating and both men and women are complicated creatures when it comes to compatibility. There is no catch all to understanding why certain people end up with who they end up with. If some women out there want a bad boy, good for them, that's there business and their life choices. If they're happy, then so be it and the same goes for those who seek out the nice guy and are just as happy with their choices. It's a useless endeavor for guys or girls to trouble themselves with why their certain traits aren't attractive to certain people b/c that's a lost cause b/c adults don't often and shouldn't change who they are to suit someone elses definition of what is attractive, but instead seek people who appreciate you for who the hell you are.

[666threesixes666]

so the moral of the story is pump more iron, and make more cash. begging for attention is not as good as working on yourself, and getting attention you don't want. a girl this summer was trying to get my attention by being overly nice, same thing. im totally out of her league, she needs to work on herself before approaching me.

[evenlift]

Contrary to what you say, I do understand and I have explained. And no one has actually offered a rebuttal.

Why does it matter? Well, morality is objective. And any person's irrationality harms everyone else, how ever marginally.

[Opinion Owner]

A rebuttal isn't necessary and to suggest that an individual not choosing to date someone for whatever particular reason they choose, is the irrational bit, not the other way round. We have free will, both sexes, and in that free will is the freedom to choose whomever we want to date. Crazy idea, but you cannot force someone to like a nice guy anymore than you can a bad boy which is why arguments like this will go no where and will not change the nature of the individual who seeks a relationship. The frustration comes when the nice guy is rejected and wants to know why they aren't the chosen one, and so it then becomes the "woman's fault." There is no fault to be had on either side of this matter. Individuals like what they like, and the only harm that can come is when someone tries to then impose their will on another and attempts to force the situation, i. e. you have to like me because I'm nice and that should be reason enough. This is life.

[evenlift]

You seem rather confused. You say that people do have free will. Then you say that I can't change people's minds because of their 'nature'. So, which is it?

You are confusing force and persuasion. A 'nice guy' who complains about rejection isn't forcing anyone. He is trying to persuade. What you're really complaining about is the hurt feelings of the woman doing the rejecting. Why is she hurt, by the way? I have explained that: she doesn't like being reminded of the contradiction between her ethics and her sexual preference.

Are you really saying that people's choices of sexual partner are not to be morally judged?

[Opinion Owner]

There is no confusion to be had. I meant exactly what I said. Each individual, male and female alike has the free will to date whomever they want and writing essentially that the woman who dates the bad boy must acquiesce to the good guy instead of dating the bad boy she desires is a waste of time. You cannot force the hand and yes making a moral judgement on her is to imply she is doing something wrong. If you want to date someone, whomever it is, it's your choice aka free will. You're essentially saying it is the woman's fault for not choosing the good guy, a good guy she may not in fact want at all, and to that I say so what. The good guy has options other then said woman who rejects him. There is this myth that the good guy always finishes last or that he never has a chance. Sure, probably because he's wasting his time going after women who don't want him for whatever reasons and that's neither her fault or his fault, its part of the dating game. You win some and you lose some.

[Opinion Owner]

Sure, try and persuade, make a moral judgement if you think it will help the good guy feel better about himself at night, but dating is complex. If it were more straight forward like in the rest of the animal kingdom, alphas would only end up with alphas and so on, but that's not the case. A million different things go into whether two people end up together but again focusing on dating success or failure being someone's fault doesn't do much to change what the individual dater wants in a partner. Analysis can go on forever, but where are we at the end of the day? Some women simply prefer the bad boy, some women simply prefer the good boy, and nothing is wrong with either because their ultimate success or failure depends on what the two do within the confines of their own personal relationship.

[Bluemax]

@Anonymous

Agree with almost everything you said. You raise an interesting issue. I get that people are attracted to whomever they are attracted to, but actually DATING someone is a choice.

If you had a son or daughter or friend or loved one who chose to date an unrepentant murderer or a rapist or an otherwise evil person, are you completely and totally OK with that (and I mean putting aside the safety issue, I mean would you be happy that your son, daughter, friend, or loved one found happiness in the arms of an unrepentant murderer, rapist, or otherwise evil person)? Say a friend of yours dated a guy who murdered another friend of yours and is happy with this person, who feels no remorse at what he/she has done. Would you be happy to invite this murderer over the same way you'd be happy to invite any other of your friend's so's over to your place?

[Opinion Owner]

@Bluemax speaking from personal experience, I had a co-worker who was dating this abusive guy. He would call our job relentlessly, show up demanding to speak to her, and inevitably I suppose, he came to work one day with a crowbar threatening to kill her, cops were called, things got ugly, she didn't show up for a few weeks, came back reporting "she'd fallen" and had a 4 inch gash down the center of her face. I was scared for my life, and I wasn't even involved with this guy. Of course I had a moral objection, a human objection to her dating this guy. Everyone in our tiny office did. We gave her numbers to shelters, offered her rooms to stay with us, tried to help her get a restraining order, but she still continued to date him. This may be an extreme case of "the bad boy" but even when it comes to guys who are just disrespectful, or say racist, or rude, or nasty... we can all object, but if a woman wants to date one of these men, she will and there is ultimately nothing you can do.

[Opinion Owner]

Knowing this doesn't mean you consent to the actions or have to invite them in your home, but women and men alike have free will. If they end up marrying or continuing on in relationships with these individuals, murderers, rapists, abusers, and other bad boy forms, there's not much we can analyze away and say why is she with him and vice versa. They are, they've made their choices, and though we may try and object, they continue to have the free will to do so.

[CancerianMan81]

IT AIN'T A GAME TO PLAY WITH SOMEONE'S HEART THAT'S IMMORAL AS FUCK AND HAS ADVERSE EFFECTS TO LOSING YOUR SOUL FOR IT

[Balcazaurus]

1) Proto-nice guy has no luck with girls due to self magnified personal set backs based either or simultaneously on personality (not that confident/assertive) or looks (they're okay or below).

2) Proto-nice guy grows bitter and wants someone or something to blame (as is Human nature) and adopts the "nice-guy" title.

3) Sees how well the "jerk" is doing and grows even more bitter. He then complains which gets on women's nerves as an instant turn off because men are "supposed to be strong".

4) " Nice guy" becomes the new jerk when he doesn't get what he believes he has earned be it love or passion. The bitterness then rises and their social skills/confidence/attitude, etcetera, devlove to that of a Morlock.

This is usually how things go down: some dudes are just being too pissy which then becomes bitchy and all around petty. Mostly because they overthink things and believe they're entitled to something.

Sometimes things work and sometimes things don't. The "secret" is not to take the hard times personally and allow it to devolve you into some kind of Troll.

[BigJake]

"... it is ironic that feminists rage against the 'nice guys' whom they have helped to create."

Isn't it, though? I've always marveled at this very thing, that these feminists, these perpetual victims in hemp dresses who have advocated an end to patriarchy and traditional masculinity would exhibit such overt anger at men who embody the very traits they claim to desire in men. On the contrary, caring, altruistic men only seem to anger feminists even more than traditional guys. At least they respect traditional guys. They may hate them and revile their very existence, but they do respect them.

I read a really good article about this phenomenon once, and it essentially postulated that feminists react so angrily to 'nice guys' because of the fundamental conflict at the core of their philosophy. Deep down, feminists still desire powerful, aggressive, masculine men--the very men who are the apotheosis of that faceless Grendel they call patriarchy. So while their quest to slay patriarchy calls for them to endorse the rise of a new kind of man--the nice, caring guy--their pussies still crave masculine men, the ones who represent everything they loathe.

Now maybe this is true, maybe it's not, but it sounds reasonable to me, especially given the curiously powerful vitriol they spew at nice guys. Either way, it's a hell of a conundrum, I'll tell you that.

[genuinlysensitive]

Its just that feminists hate all men. When "traditional" men are more prevalent, they rail more against them. With the rise more more nice, caring guys, well they are still men, so they must be evil, and they spend more time railing against them.

[Realitybites]

There is a difference between guys who are nice and guys who are needy and insecure. Being nice is a good trait to have but being nice because your insecure is fake af. For example: you like a girl and because your sl nice you call her 10 times a day and cling to her when you see her and compliment her all the time. To you it might seem nice but to her it's extremely annoying and she avoids you. Now you're confused and you'd call her a slut. End of story. You have to be aware of the signs that you're being a creep. Limit yourself. Dont call a girl you like a lot and oh... I forgot.. dont be desperate. Dont. Dont complain about your life to her. Dont try to be a bad guy because it won't work and because you're not bad. What is bad? Im pretty sure no one would want to date a bad guy. There are bad guys like cheaters and rapists and there are guys who are thought of as "bad" because they're confident and they have a sense lf humor which makes them talk dirty and act dirty but that doesn't make anyone bad. Girls like guys on motorcycles or guys in rockbands because of their status and that confidence. They're nice but they're assertive too and they dont show they're desperate.

[RebelOfNowhere]

Mmmhh... I think a selfish man is very unattractive. Of course I want someone who is able to pursue their own goals, but if they lack altruism I want nothing to do with them. A balance is necessary, but I have never been attracted to people who weren't more altruistic than selfish, probably because this is the way I am, and I need a partner similar to me. The term "nice guy" has been transformed into a negative thing, applying to men who think that they will get what they want just because they act nice. Being genuinely nice to yourself and to others is very attractive.

[evenlift]

Bear in mind that there is a difference between benevolence and altruism.

Selfishness requires benevolence, and vice versa. Benefiting other people or putting in effort can be benevolent and selfish, or it can be altruistic and selfless. It depends on the context. For example, contrary to what is often said, a good relationship is not sacrifice. It is a relationship to mutual benefit.

[Anonymous]

Hmmm why does everyone think if you say your a kind or nice, respected guy your only pretending to be so? I was raised by a single black women to be this way. Kind&respected to every one i meet to try understand every single person i meet and too treated women with respected
. Now this is not me pretending am nice or kind in Any way because this is how i was rasied and this is who i am. As for bitter nice Guy or good guys even girls what ever the fuck you wanna call them. Lets have a show of hands of how many girls here have given a guy everything expecteding he loved him when really he just used her for sex when he known he didn't want a relationship with her then come back said he loved you just to get laid any girls here? Now for guys how many of you have been told by a guy that she loved you That you treat her right only to be lefted for another guy or dumped and told you were a dick or ass hole. Any one? Now if this is how you been treated would you have not become bitter or hateful? Are you not Human? I myself used to be bitter n angery but realize the best thing to do is to improve myself. Been 1 year since my forced break up with my ex and all i do every single day of the week is focus on improving myself. Anyways i strongly do belive their are truly nice people out there that get sick of being taken advantage of. Like my friend very nice girl her ex boyfriend lefted her with 2 died babys said his parents didn't want him dating her. Then we come to find out he was cheating on her the whole time... Now tell me does she not have the right to be hateful n bitter? I think their are some truly fuck up man sluts and bitchs in this World. Sorry about any gammer or spelling mistakes.

[Hidden_P]

For the love of god, this again?

Why do we have to label everything? Date whoever you want whether they are nice, preppy, smart, tall, midget, dick splashes or cum bubbles. It really doesn't matter as long as you are happy. Why label it?

And if it's a break up, I've never heard anyone say "it's cause you are too nice". It's an excuse butt hurt men come up with.

Do excuse me, I have to go answer one of the million of rate me, homophobic, racist and religious questions.

[Hidden_P]

Or a fat/skinny bashing rant, I mean "my take"

[evenlift]

Because morality matters. There's no escaping morality. Even if you say, "I'm not going to concern myself with moral principles", that is ironically a moral principle.

[Hidden_P]

Morality is about right and wrong. How is labelling yourself a nice guy a morality issue?

[evenlift]

Every voluntary act is a moral issue.

[Tormentarian]

@myTake Owner

[GingerBear]

There is a huge difference between a nice guy, and a good guy. 'Nice guys' are not nice. They pretend to be nice, in order to get laid. When they focus on trying to woo a female, but fail for whatever reason, they turn incredibly bitter, and start accusing the woman of being a whore, slut, bitch, etc. They can't handle rejection, and feel entitled to whichever woman they want, regardless of her feelings, because they view themselves as 'nice'.
A good guy respects the woman he is interested in, and if she doesn't want to pursue the relationship, he lets it go, without flying off the handle and verbally or emotionally abusing her.
This can also be reversed, because girls do the same thing.

[Gommers]

You ever think that repeated failure creates bitterness? You ever think that being born a woman does anything but bed arrogance?

[GingerBear]

@Gommers If you're consistently failing at something, common sense should tell you that you're doing something wrong. Stop whining and fix it. It's called self-improvement, and it's a positive action.
Being born a woman makes one arrogant? That's such a nonsensical statement, I don't even know where to start.

[skykidx1]

Lies all lies

[GingerBear]

@skykidx1 In what way? If you're gonna accuse me of lying, at least rebut my argument.

[jessicorn]

good guys are so hard to find tho... most guys never accept no as a no

[GingerBear]

@jessicorn I know. They're the unicorns of the dating world.

[evenlift]

I've addressed this in my article.

[CancerianMan81]

I think it does @Gommers cause why else do they use the "PRIVILEGE" card every time when they want more cause their too full of themselves they can't figure that out for the life of them that that's why they can't keep a man then they expect us men to give them the reason why there ain't no good men left when it's "THEIR REASON OF THINKING" why they are in the mess in the first place

[CancerianMan81]

but when us MEN point that out we're just being a JERK

[CancerianMan81]

us MEN don't have a right to point out their mistakes and they just say let it go so that the women can do anything they want to do when they can't understand that there's an atonement for everything you do in life

[RandomUsername3464]

Oh well. I'm a hybrid of a nice guy and a rude guy, it works for me. The old me, the guy who was polite and soft-spoken and helped people in public is gone forever, never to return. I did not be nice to have sex, I did it because I was raised to be selfless and altruistic, as the take states.

I do find it funny how people who have seen me recently sometimes complain and say, "You used to be such a nice guy!", and that honestly makes me smile on the inside. There are loads of genuine nice guys out there who get mistreated, and when that happens, you need to adapt and start doing more things for yourself.

Funny enough, I can never find a balanced approach on the "nice guy" subject from a feminist point of view. It is ALL vitriolic, cliche memes and buzzwords. Anger manifested onto a webpage. The solution is to not be a nice guy.

[RandomUsername3464]

I should also add, that the girls who complain about "nice guys" are just as bad as the "nice guys" themselves. I see it on this site and elsewhere; the girls literally develop their entire persona around hating "nice guys", to the point where they will bump old threads, and attack random guys out of context for being "nice guys". It's like these girls have an enormous chip on their little shoulders they can never get off, it is SOOOOO pathetic!!

[6blueshoes]

No one wants to date someone who is mean, abusive, and cold-hearted towards others. But being nice DOESN'T automatically separate you from every other guy. Saying your a nice guy is the bare minimum for politness and every kind of relationship (and friendship) towards fellow man. It's like a restaraunt saying the food won't make you sick, a given for any establishment.

Being nice doesn't make up for being passive, lacking confidence, not being attractive, or not having luck with women. Work on what you have to offer (skills, interests, hobbies) and you'll find someone.

[evenlift]

It's not a minimum at all. Many men who are not polite get laid. I've addressed this point.

Being nice entails being passive. Conventional morality demands sacrifice. I've addressed this point too.

[Dipsy]

Women dont need to stop wining about 'nice guys'.

Let's face the truth. Men are usually more attracted to looks than women.
Men usually don't like fat women, women usually don't like nice guys. How can you overcome this problem? By working on it.
Fat = working out.
Nice Guy = get confidence, because nice guys lack confidence, otherwise they wouldn't be bad in dating stuff. Women want a bit of adventure, they dont want the boring nice guy, they want the confident good guy (gentleman). The confident good guy has confidence but he is also fun (yes fun, unlike nice guys, in a sense that women love to be around him). He is adventurous and has a great outlook on life and is motivated. He basically shows unconsciously (without saying) : Look at how awesome I am, girls must certainly like me (cant be otherwise).

[evenlift]

But, that goes against niceness, if by niceness you mean conventional morality That is, as I say, the root of the 'nice guy' problem.

[Dipsy]

Everyone should be nice to each other, but you shouldn't give women extra treatment if you know what I mean, girls don't like that.

[DeltsBrah]

Wrong Girls care about looks

[Dipsy]

@DeltsBrah Far not as much as guys. If you would the importance for looks in a girl for a guy, it would be about 7 or 8 (out of 10), for a girl it would be 1 or 2 (out of 10). Confidence and manliness, that's what matters

[Fugue]

"objectivism" is really just some childish, simpleton bullcrap that intends to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and even then under strict cherrypicking.

Ayn Rand was the first to collect welfare when objectivism literally gave her cancer. And the whole excuse of "I do what I can with what I have" is just double-talk that brazenly betrays its own principles of rejecting even the products of altruism. It's like if I massacre an objectivist's family and get away with it, I'm sure they will just worship me as a selfish superman. They won't rage for altruistic action, at all.

Objectivism is really just a vessel for sheltered, bourgeois suburbanites to justify their privilege and even subjugation ofr the less fortunate. Fortunate being the key word. Fortune, not merit. Fortune.

[evenlift]

Find me proof that Ayn Rand collected welfare. Then, find me proof that Ayn Rand said that it is wrong to collect welfare. I'll help you by informing you that you should not waste your time: you will find no proof of either claim.

The rest of what you say makes no sense. You're a case in point of the rage of people who feel that their fundamental altruistic world-view is being threatened.

[Fugue]

Your idea of "proof" is nothing I am interested in catering to. It's common knowledge, to anyone familiar with Rand's biography. If you dispute that, you live in your own reality, and that's all that can be said.

[evenlift]

In other words, you have no proof.

[evenlift]

All you have is your anger and self-doubt.

[Hannah591]

There's this nice guy who's confident, extremely funny but I think naturally hopeless with women. He has so much respect for women and I find him hilarious which attracts me to him, we have real chemistry personality wise but I don't find him physically attractive so I just can't see myself with someone I have no attraction to.

[alibaba42]

women are sexually attracted to alpha males. They are interested in nice guys as long term partners only after they have tried to have the thrill of dating that unusual sexy radical guy who knows how to take charge.

Its OK, we guys try to sleep with as many women a possible before we settle down. its all coherent, I don't see what the big fuss is about.

[Gommers]

@alibaba42 "We men" speak for yourself, I don't give a fuck about sex until a committed relationship is involved. You know how many women I've turned down or gotten bored of because getting her was too fucking easy? Come on man, don't act like you're top dog when your really a rabbit.

[alibaba42]

@Gommers well its getting harder and harder to find nice girls. so im just saying that we may as well take advantage of the fact that girls sleep around. if not with you then someone else

[singlebee]

Why don't you find him physically attractive?

[Hannah591]

@singlebee He has an unusual face shape. The face is a BIG part of attraction to me, seeing as that's what you look at most.

[CHRIS11796]

That's ok but that's the way he was born lol you can't fix that little issue about his face and if you're not attracted to him it's no problem however i will say that guy's who aren't attractive can do a lot from a nice haircut to a good sense of style in clothing and this one can help too working out. You say he's confident but naturally hopeless why do you say that he can be just as successful as good looking guy's now if he is looking unpresentable then it will hurt his approach and if you're not attracted to him then tell him don't keep it to yourself the honest truth is a lot better than a sweet lie.

[CHRIS11796]

By the way I'm curious to what you meant as an unusual shape you mean like jason vorhees head shape or something else?

[Hannah591]

@CHRIS11796 Big head, small features.

[CHRIS11796]

Alright i see can you please give an opinion on my question it's about looks and confidence?

[slimstiffy]

OMG this comment lmfao

[BreatheMe19]

To be honest, I see more men complaining about 'nice guys' than women. I can't remember the last time my friends an I actually had a conversation about a nice guy.

And I wish people who stop blaming women for what Elliot Rodger did. To even try to rationalize what he did is pathetic. He was mentally deranged, he needed to be in a psych ward, it's as simple as that. Women aren't at fault for not wanting to have sex with him.

[Hidden_P]

Yes yes yes

[Bysshe]

"I see more men complaining about 'nice guys' than women."

Really? 'nice guys' complain about girls, and presumably other guys are glad that there's a substantial number of 'nice guys' who are rubbish with women. I don't see why guys would complain about 'nice guys'.

[BreatheMe19]

Complaining as in talking about them and bitching how women don't like them.
@Bysshe

[evenlift]

You can't have been on GAG long if you think that men complain about nice guys more than girls do.

Don't misrepresent what I say. Elliot Rodger was 100% responsible for those murders. However, the fan-girls who glorified him afterwards are responsible for their own actions. And feminists and all the other altruists, in other words almost all other people, are responsible for the altruistic culture in which we live, which produced Elliot Rodger. Blaming, for example, the ordinary racist majority of the historical southern United States for their racism wouldn't constitute an attempt to erase the responsibility of the minority that actually committed slavery, racist murders, etc. It is simply a recognition that a culture is created by the majority.

[CancerianMan81]

yes they are at fault cause women are the one's that drove him to it and the same way that women are doing to the rest of us men YOU'RE DRIVING US FUCKING NUTS BY NOT WANTING US MEN TO BE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU hows that for justification

[CancerianMan81]

and i don't see no common decency for shit anymore cause you women threw LOGIC right out the window along time ago and anything us men hold dear too and you women are saying oh well let it go that's the way it is

[Anonymous]

"Another claim is that 'nice guys' believe that 'niceness' should be enough to earn a woman's affections. Even if they did believe that, the question would still arise, why is 'niceness' such a turn-off that cheaters, rapists, murderers et al have less trouble winning women's affections than 'nice guys' do?"

Because the nice guys you are talking about here have nothing but niceness going for them - they inherently don't turn many women on. It's not that we prefer terrible people.

By the way, hot and nice are not mutually exclusive concepts - there are plenty of attractive *and* kind guys out there. I still don't get why so many guys seem so stuck on "hot vs. nice."

[evenlift]

So, you are saying that, yes, nice guys are worse than rapists and murderers.

[Opinion Owner]

No I am saying that nice guys who are *just* nice are generally not attractive. Women don't go after bad people but may find them more physically attractive (not knowing they are bad).

[evenlift]

That's already been rebutted by me.

[Opinion Owner]

Which part has?

[evenlift]

Both parts.

[Opinion Owner]

Please explain your rebuttal (I don't have time to search).

[CancerianMan81]

NICE GUYS HAVE MORE QUALITIES THAN JUST BEING A NICE GUY

[CancerianMan81]

THERE'S OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER AS WELL CAUSE IF ALL YOUR DOING IS GOING BY THE NICE GUYS BEING NICE THEN YOU ARE THE MAIN PROBLEM WHY YOU CAN'T GET WITH A MAN

[CancerianMan81]

cause if you're only going on what you want in a man then you are going to lose a man every time it ain't about what you it's about what we want for ourselves cause it is our lives not your's

[Opinion Owner]

@CancerianMan81 huh?
I'm talking about the nice guys who are nice but that's about it - not attractive in any other way.
Did you actually seriously just say that it's only men who get to have preferences lmao?

[CancerianMan81]

yes cause it has to deal with men women ain't the one's to be considered here if you take us out of the equation then your only thinking of yourself

[Opinion Owner]

@CancerianMan81 I'm pretty sure you missed the entire point of the MyTake, which was about women not liking so-called "nice guys." The entire MyTake is about women's preferences, which we are very much entitled to have, obviously.

[CancerianMan81]

i'm going on about if it leaves us out of the equation is where I'm coming from

[CancerianMan81]

which is what most of the women do and I didn't say all of the women do and i'm not saying that about you

[Opinion Owner]

@CancerianMan81 How exactly do preferences leave you out of the equation?

[Opinion Owner]

I'm not taking it personally I just honestly don't understand what you're getting at.

[CancerianMan81]

by not acknowledging me

[CancerianMan81]

by women saying that I'm not a NICE GUY all I am is angry and bitter and that i'm a jerk cause i call out women for the mistakes that they make and just on and on and on and on just absolutely demonizing me hell I guess I'm the worst guy in the world the way women carry on about me

[CancerianMan81]

all i'm trying to get at is I want a girlfriend and women have made it impossible for me to have one

[Opinion Owner]

@CancerianMan81 I'm not sure what to tell you

[CancerianMan81]

I just can't stand this shit anymore

[CancerianMan81]

I JUST WANT TO SCREAM ON THE TOP OF MY LUNGS

[CancerianMan81]

i'm just tired of life and everything in it