Debunked: "I Have A Racial Preference In Dating"

[Stacyzee]

There are three different types of people in the dating scene:

A) The person who is open to dating any race.

This person has no preference when it comes to dating racially. They are willing to date whoever they share a connection with.

B) The person who says,"I have a preference for my own race."

This person is unwilling to date outside of their race. Although this person is referred to as "close-minded" by some, this individual does not discriminate against others. They do not feel other races are inferior in comparison to their own. They do not associate other racial groups with the negative stigmas that are in place for them by society. They simply just share a attraction to their own phenotype or others with similar features/characteristics.

C) The person who says they have a preference but is really a closet racist.

My main discussion in this article will be Person C.

This person constantly tries to camouflage their actions. It is apparent to some that this person is racist. They often insinuate that they are better than others through their actions and words. When confronted with the fact that they are racist, they are often quick to say:

"I have a -insert race other than their own- friend"

or

"I have a preference, I can't be racist!"

People that are able to see past their camouflage know that isn't the truth.

Person C hides behind the words, "I have a preference" because that is what is accepted in society. The truth is, they share a deep routed hatred for the race they choose not to share a committed relationship with.

Covert racism is a form of racial discrimination that is disguised and subtle, rather than public or obvious. Concealed in the fabric of society, covert racism discriminates against individuals through often unnoticeable or seemingly passive methods. Covert, racially-biased decisions are often hidden or rationalized with an explanation that society is more willing to accept.

Person C

• May have many friends of different racial backgrounds.


• May even have a few sexual encounters with those outside of his/her race. (But would never seriously commit or marry someone that is not their own racial background).

Examples of comments that are made by this person:

"Black people are criminals and ghetto".

"Hispanics are dirty and loud".

"All Asians look alike. They are only good for submission."

"White people smell like wet dog. They are stuck up and snobby."

The list goes on.........

You can be any race to hold hatred to another.

Offensive comments as shown above are quickly covered up by the, "I have a racial preference in dating" line. Often times, the comments made by people like Person C are overlooked because no one ever second guesses when someone says they have a liking towards a particular type of person.

How can they? Especially, when this person seems to get along with a variety of ethnic groups.

I get it!

I am not easily fooled.

This is racism in its most subtle form.

It is often swept under the rug because it's concealed to look like something that is acceptable in the eyes of others.

People like Person C aren't always aware of their deeply routed hatred for other races. It's very common that some individuals feel this way about other races subconsiously. Societal, cultural, and environmental differences/beliefs have the ability to strongly impact ones views of others.

Some covert racists often remain in denial about the "truth" of their views and continue to portray an image they are opposite of.

We’ve got to face the fact that some people say you fight fire best with fire, but we say you put fire out best with water. We say you don’t fight racism with racism. We’re gonna fight racism with solidarity

Whether racism is overt (open and observable) or covert (hidden and disguised), it is something that will never end. Do not allow yourself to be blinded by those who say they have a preference. Those that truly do, harbor no hate or resentment. Those that do not make ignorant comments and portray an illusion that's appropriate for the world.

[UnknownXYZ]

vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/.../latest

I believe the whole racial preference thing shows how limited people are as seeing others as individuals. I have no racial preference but I pretty much don't believe in the idea of "race". The term's only usefulness is that it quickly refers to flawed patterns which works practically which is why I use it. However, making preferences on such a flawed term is ridiculous.

[RJGraveyTrain]

This was well written and I think you made a lot of good points, good work.

[Mistnigqa808]

I think this is the best take that I've read about this topic thus far. Since I've seen a lot of "PERSON C's" on the web + somewhat in real life. And IMHO the best way to "pull them out of the shadows" is to make them mad. So you can see if the racial slurs will come spewing out of their mouths (usually does) shortly after.

Cuz they'll usually do everything in power to justify their "preference" when IMHO it's not a "preference". But just them trying to take the #PC route about it. Since if you asked them to "truthfully" write down their preferences on a piece of paper it wouldn't look anything like mine of Black, Asian, Arab, Indian, Latino, White.

But something like "blackx4, and Asian (really written there to fool us into thinking that they do truly have preferences. When in the end, it's all nothing but PC BS because they're scared catching flak for it LOL). i1127.photobucket.com/.../sloth-yawn-cute.gif nice take.

[Mistnigqa808]

I ignored your bullets points on the "person C's"... sorry LOL

[Stacyzee]

Does that change your response?

[Mistnigqa808]

Nope, I still feel the same way about them. And tbh I kinda ignored your bullet points on purpose. Cuz your/the generic run in the mill "person C" will usually live in an all ___ community with maybe 1 token friend, right? Who he nor his family really likes in the 1st place. But they'll choose to keep em around for the "I have a ___ BFF" for arguments IMHO HAHAHA

[Mistnigqa808]

Most "person C's" only fuck their race I'm sure LOL.

BFF" arguments *

[the_rake]

too many contradictions and there isn't really much difference between person b and person c in your book.

for instance,

person b:

'This person is unwilling to date outside of their race. Although this person is referred to as "close-minded" by some, this individual does not discriminate against others. They do not feel other races are inferior in comparison to their own'

person c:

'person who says they have a preference but is really a closet racist'

do you know they are a closet racist or are you assuming they are a closet racist. how do you know person b is not a closet racist since neither person b nor person c say explicitly racist things.

does person c say things such as:

' "I have a -insert race other than their own- friend"

or

"I have a preference, I can't be racist!" '

or are they saying things like,

' "Black people are criminals and ghetto".

"Hispanics are dirty and loud".

"All Asians look alike. They are only good for submission."

"White people smell like wet dog. They are stuck up and snobby." '

because there is an obvious contradiction between saying things non-racially explicit on one hand and saying things that are racially explicit on the other hand.

either person c is out in the open about their racism or you don't know that they are racist.

also, are you really fine with person b having racial preferences or are you just saying that so you can attack person c (who is not really that different from person b).

[Stacyzee]

Hi there,
I'll be glad to clear this up for you. There are no contradictions in this article, it's just that you are not interpreting it well.
Some people simply find certain facial features more attractive than others.
It's pretty much like you finding a slim woman more attractive than one who is overweight.
Do you hold any negative feelings about women that carry a little extra weight? No.
It's just the person that appeals to you more is similar in body build to you (both people are suitable weight for their height)
Someone that is discriminatory openly states stereotypes about those they are unwilling to give a chance to (person c).
Since I am speaking about covert racism, this is the type of discrimination that is usually overlooked.
This person may say offensive things in a joking manner to mask their hatred that they feel towards a certain group inside. people that are covert racist aren't open about it, the racism they display is usually subtle and not open.
As a black

[Stacyzee]

woman I must say I have faced this (outside of the dating scene). A couple of times, I have asked white people for directions , only for them to keep walking and ignore me. I've had doctors appointments and have been told "to have a seat as soon as I walk in" without much acknowledgment. Someone that enters that is the same racial background as the receptionists gets a friendly greeting and engaged in conversation.
I have even been followed in a few stores , while those that are white haven't ,
Covert racism is done in ways that are covered up.
Usually when people think of being racist they think of the Kkk people that openly discriminate.
Most racism nowadays is subtle.
This is what I am getting at in my article.
Person C tries to cover up the demeaning things they say, but it's apparent what it is.

[the_rake]

'Someone that is discriminatory openly states stereotypes about those they are unwilling to give a chance to (person c).'

Ok that's fine, but in the article you said they were a closet racist, so which is true - is person c open and honest about how they feel or are they keeping it to themselves (in which case, how do you know). This in mind, you go on to talk about covert racism, although I don't really know much about that, all I can say is to the following:

' A couple of times, I have asked white people for directions , only for them to keep walking and ignore me. I've had doctors appointments and have been told "to have a seat as soon as I walk in" without much acknowledgment. '

This kind of thing happens as a white man also, you know. Sometimes people are just busy and don't necessarily have the time to fully acknowledge you. Also what would 'covert racism' look like in terms of dating?

[Stacyzee]

I didn't automatically jump to the conclusion that the receptionist was racist. Sure, if her not acknowledging me happened one or two times I would have attributed that to her being busy. However, over the course several months having had appointments in her office I couldn't help but notice blacks and other racial groups were spoken to in a rough manner, quickly told to sit down and barely acknowledged. While White Russians (her ethnic group) were greeted friendly and engaged in long conversations.

The reason why covert racism seems blatant in my article's case is because I'm actually exposing what usually goes under the radar. In day to day cases , someone that is covert racist will try their best to hide it. Usually, it is hidden by the "i have a preference line". When asked why they will not date another race they usually respond by listing stereotypes about that race. Some covert racists are aware of their hatred while others do it subconsciously. They are influenced by

[Stacyzee]

their environmental , societal and cultural factors to believe another race is better. That way of thinking is so embedded into them that they can't see it as not normal.

Overt racism on the other hand is openly displayed and not covered up.
Ex- Kkk, hate crimes etc

[the_rake]

'White Russians (her ethnic group) were greeted friendly and engaged in long conversations.'

Is she as amiable to regular white people? Maybe she just finds it easier to relate to that group because of the commonalities - language, culture, and the fact of being immigrants. That's why I make a point never to overanalyse these things. Not saying your interpretation is wrong by the way - I don't know the context as well as you do.

'"i have a preference line".'

What line would you use to people constantly questioning the fact you only prefer to date certain races without sounding racist. Any 'line' you do use is going to sound racist. 'it's just my preference' or 'I'm sorry, she seems like a lovely girl but she is just not my type' seem to be the minimal offence lines. And people are still going to get butt hurt and pry harder because no line is good enough. Either you are 'open-minded' like they are or you are a racist.

[the_rake]

'When asked why they will not date another race they usually respond by listing stereotypes about that race. '

Ok, well that is different then but it is not really 'covert racism' at this point because what they are saying is now out in the open.

[Stacyzee]

I didn't see any other whites come there besides Russian. That doesn't change the fact she gave the cold shoulder to other groups that were not like her. You can find it easier to get along with your own but not be rude , and nasty to others that aren't. People that are rude and nasty usually have anger inside , they aren't that way for no apparent reason.

I still don't think you get the concept of covert racism. I recommend that you watch a video on it. Covert racist don't go around doing hate crimes like racist that are open. However, they do try to make their racist comments (if they do make any in front of others ) and acts seem rather harmless. They try to cover it up.
Open racist don't do that. They show it in its fullest form.

You can come up with one hundred reasons and explanations why someone showing hate is reasonable but it doesn't change the fact that it's there. This is my point covert racism is easily overlooked. I have faced it. These things aren't a

[Stacyzee]

fragment of the imagination.

[the_rake]

'I didn't see any other whites come there besides Russian. That doesn't change the fact she gave the cold shoulder to other groups that were not like her. You can find it easier to get along with your own but not be rude , and nasty to others that aren't. People that are rude and nasty usually have anger inside , they aren't that way for no apparent reason.'

I was gonna leave this discussion but going through my earlier posts I wanted to reply to this point. I don't know this woman personally but imagine you are an immigrant in a foreign country, you don't speak much of the native language much and you don't know a lot about the culture. You might just find it an easier or safer bet to talk to people from your own ethnic group. Sometimes when people feel insecure they keep other people at arms length and it's all to easy to assume that they are hostile or prejudiced especially when they are good at masking their fear. But then, I also believe you should make an effort to learn the

[the_rake]

language and culture of the country you are in (especially if you are working / living there). So it's a touch and go situation.

[Stacyzee]

I think you are easily dismissive to the issue. I find this very common with those that are white. They simply just never get it. (Not generalizing because there are those that choose to acknowledge that we live in a society that is not perfect , racism happens it's just subtle nowadays)
As someone that has faced discrimination, I have a clear picture of what it looks like.
All I see is you making excuses for someone else to paint a acceptable picture.

[the_rake]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen and that people never have hidden agendas. But you don't necessarily see what those hidden agendas are, all you have are your assumptions and detective work. And it's never fair to judge a person based on implicit behaviour at all. I know it's people we're talking about and not robots but let's try and be a bit more scientific.

[Stacyzee]

I don't have a right to an assumption , but they have right to treat me poorly and their own better?
Listen, I get that you don't like labels.
But an assumption is usually a conclusion about a person based on little to no information on them.
If I am observing someone for a period of time , doing a certain behavior it is no longer an assumption but a valid statement.

If I go around yelling in public at women and giving them nasty looks.
But i treat men obviously better by having a nice tone and manners
Is it not safe to assume I may be sexist? Or have some type of issues towards women?

[the_rake]

'they have right to treat me poorly and their own better?'

But then, it might not necessarily be the case that you are being treated poorly. You talk about observing people, but then you've only giving me one case scenario of a woman who preferred to make small talk with people speaking her own language and belonging to her own country. Given the fact she could have her own insecurities about being in another country, this could easily be an assumption, yes.

'yelling in public at women and giving them nasty looks'

That's explicit behaviour with observable evidence of differential treatment with no possible rationale (e. g. we know the specific women did something nasty to that particular man earlier because he seems to be targeting non-specific women / randomers).

We can safely conclude therefore that this is sexist behaviour, yes.

[Stacyzee]

I don't need to list a ton of scenarios to make my point.
I clearly stated this woman was rude to people of color but nice to her own.
That's pretty blatant if you ask me.
You can feel comfortable with your own but why speak down to others?

[the_rake]

Ok, fair enough if you are certain that the behaviour is rudeness / hostility as opposed to incompatibility arising from difference in language and culture. If you are sure that is the case, then I can agree that this is covert racism and that in this sense person c can be distinguished from person b in a situation where we are dealing with certainties rather than assumptions about the underlying motives or agendas a person may have. We can agree, therefore and I am sorry to hear that as a black woman you encounter this behaviour regularly - it shouldn't happen.

[HikerDude]

Freedom of association is still a freedom that we enjoy as citizens of the United States. As much as you might want to, you can't control with whom people associate, nor can you dictate others' thoughts and feelings. All the caterwauling from people like yourself won't change the fact that people do have dating preferences for one reason or another.

There are black women who work with white guys, socialize with white guys, and grew up around white guys, but they just aren't physically attracted to white guys. Their preference is to date black and Latin American men. Are they "closet racists" because of this? No, absolutely not. By the same token, there are white guys who have a polyglot social circle who only want to white girls because that's who excites them. Is this wrong? Are these guys closet racists? Hell no, it's their right to choose to whom they're attracted and with whom they want to have sex.

So, bottom line, your post come across as just another attempt by a social justice warrior to tell the world how we should think. It's arrogant, condescending, and, ultimately doomed to fail.

[Stacyzee]

@HikerDude Sharing an idea or shedding light on an issue that is often overlooked is not in any way forcing people to make choices they have every right to. No where in my article did I tell people that they must do this , or must do that. In fact , I openly stated I am ok with preferences in this article. That line is drawn when people attach negative stigmas, stereotypes and hate to other races. When this happens, it's not a preference anymore. It is hate, that is what I am exposing.
You want to talk about freedom to express oneself but I find you very hypocritical in the introduction of the idea. You are pretty much stating that people have every right to express their actions and words, but I on the other hand do not.
Sounds like you don't understands the concept of freedom.
You are contradicting yourself by saying it's right for a certain set of people do to something , but not only for others to have a right to formulate an opinion or responses.

[Stacyzee]

You are those words you speak of because your judgment seems clouded and one sided. You completely flew by the entire point of my article and only insinuated your ideas ,

[HikerDude]

You just called an entire group racist based on nothing more than assumption, yet you're telling me that you're not passing judgment or decrying their dating preferences? As several others have pointed out, there are some serious logical inconsistencies in your statements. You seem to be speaking from both sides of your mouth at once. On one hand you're trying to give the appearance of rationality by saying that you don't take issue with preference, while on the other hand you're labeling broad swaths of the populace as racists without the slightest bit of empirical evidence to indicate as such. You can't make any legitimate claims to rationality when you make such unfounded claims.

[Stacyzee]

Someone blatantly attaching negative stereotypes to a racial group , condemning them and making racial slurs isn't an assumption. If that's your logic then the kkk isn't racist they are only a bunch of expressive people.
Do I really need to be physically attacked before I can comprehend someone is racist? It doesn't need to reach that level when all is clear.
Several people have understood my article very well.
I notice those who raised the most questions were the people that felt the way in which I described "person c". They drew offense.
You don't need a piece of paper to understand that someone is racist.
As a black woman, I'd be living in delusion if I needed a paper in front of me to prove ignorance of another.
The whole point of this article is to infer that preferences are ok. The line is only drawn when hatred is attached to that preference and covered up to fool society.
IF I go around saying I don't want dark skin nappy haired babies , I want a white man. How could

[Stacyzee]

that not be racist? I am automatically suppressing an entire racial group and inferring whites are better by their physical characteristics.
Oh wait , I know !
Because I stated "I have a preference" that automatically disguises everything I said and makes it more appropriate.
Most people that are racist, will not admit it.

[HikerDude]

It's not your place to ascribe thoughts to others whom you know nothing about. The fact is that you don't know why so many people of all races harbor their racial preferences. You make yourself look like a fool and a bigot by painting people you don't know with such a broad brush.

[Stacyzee]

You continue to not acknowledge any of my points. You're just throwing out empty words and labeling me the same way you accuse others of what you dislike.
Since you're throwing labels out continuously , you are nothing more than a hypocrite.
That is your label !
As long as I have a place in society, I have every right to speak up in issues.
Didn't you say freedom of expression?
Or are you being hypocritical in that area as well.
Only people that have your views can speak up while others who don't should remain in silence.
Just like you say, I have no right to label people because I don't know them.
I could say the same about you.
You don't know me, so stop labeling me.
"Contradiction" is another label I will throw out.
You might walk to look up the words you are using and then look at your reflection.

[Stacyzee]

*You might want to look up the words

[HikerDude]

Your rhetorical flailing would be funny were you not in total earnest. As it is, it's just really sad. Black people like yourself need to stop thinking that the world is against you anytime something doesn't break your way. "Racism" isn't the secret answer choice to all the hard questions in life.

[Stacyzee]

Yea because racism doesn't exist.
It's a fragment of people's imagination.
The fact that you are so in denial of what goes on in the society , makes you part of the problem.
Thank God you are not a leader, president or person of authority because if you were we can look to a world without hope or change

[RationalMale]

People might not be "born racist" but according to some groups, 3 month old babies are keenly aware of race.

www.world-science.net/.../060212_racefrm2.htm

And in all seriousness, why do you or anyone else really care if someone has "racist" biases in dating? I mean, seriously?

Here. I am extremely racist. I'm white, and one of the reasons I only ask out white girls is that when I have kids one day, I want them to be white and have my good looks, and carry on my proud white bloodline lol. That, and I think hot white girls are way hotter than girls of other races.

There, perfect example of overt racism in dating, lmao. Now my question is, why do you care?

Does it disturb you that not enough black guys can sleep with white girls yet, or something? I just don't get your logic. Why does it even concern you?

I mean, people have more reason to ban gay marriage based on STD medication costs to society, than you do to be worried that not enough people are having interracial sex.

[ThePostMan]

No they aren't. True science will posts sources. Racism is a byproduct of ignorance.

[RationalMale]

@ThePostMan

Is that why you didn't post any source?

[RationalMale]

I'll rephrase for you, @ThePostMan.

"Racism is a byproduct if ignorance."

Ignorance of what, specifically?

[ThePostMan]

Well, you believe and posted a racist rant that has no scientific basis and tried to pass it off as fact to justify you believe that you are better than someone else, based solely on the color of your skin.

Real scientists share their sources and methods of testing because only when your results can be duplicated by others under the same condition, does your science become valid. Until then, it's just a belief.

[RationalMale]

@ThePostMan so do tell, why does "not enough people are having interracial sex" trouble you? When people refuse to date their own race, i see why people would be concerned.

So why are your boxers in a bundle over whether people are willing to date out or not?

[ThisDudeHere]

"They do not feel other races are inferior in comparison to their own."

It would be so cool if judgmental people could understand this about people who prefer their own or a certain other race. Like, I'm pretty certain I'm mostly attracted to white women only. I 'could' date a black woman (not that I will, there aren't any from where I'm from) but I wouldn't settle down with her. Does that mean I think she's inferior to a white woman? No. I'm just being pragmatic over the fact that I want my predecessors to have white genes. Why? Because I'm white. It has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority - just want my kids to look like me and my ancestors. That's it.

[Stacyzee]

Although your preferences may not be understood by some. I admire you for expressing your views on this.
As long as you harbor no hate or resentment towards others then by definition you are not racist.

[Lightspeed-Lemon]

Hmmm. Sounds like you are saying you "don't believe in the mixing of the races," which was a common refrain of racists in the past. As if somehow adding genes from another race is diluting or tainting the family line. What will you tell your own children or grandchildren later on if some of them want to intermix with other races?

[ThisDudeHere]

@Lightspeed-Lemon nothing. That's their business.

[Stacyzee]

@ThisDudeHere Do you dislike ethnic features and feel yours are better?

[ThisDudeHere]

I like mine without disliking others. The same way I prefer normal chocolate over milk white chocolate without disliking the later.

[ThisDudeHere]

And why do you refer to anything non-white as ethnic? Everyone's an ethnic person from one place or another. Whites are not the generic standard or norm.

[Stacyzee]

You're right anyone can be ethnic. However I use the word in the modern use of language www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ethnic

[Stacyzee]

Words have a way of changing with society. I know the politically correct way to use it as well as the modern way.

[ThisDudeHere]

I don't get it why I was downvoted do much? Are people really that sensitive?

[Mistnigqa808]

#UpVote + I can respect it LOL

[croxy]

That's not correct. I don't hate any races, just because there's some races I'm less attracted to then others. If I hated them I wouldn't date them at all.

I'm attracted to physical features, some races have less and some have more of those featurs then others, but that's not always the case, if that's not the case and I find that person attractive I'm open to date them.

Yes I DO have preferences, but it's only based on what physical attributes I'm attracted to.

[Stacyzee]

I stated this.
I distinguished in my article between person B and c.
I did not say everyone with preferences are racist. You're actually agreeing with me and don't get that.

[croxy]

Wait what so according to you I'm person b then?

[croxy]

Because I'm not unwilling to date outside my race, it's just that I'm less likely to be attracted to a certain race, but it still happens, just not as frequently

[Stacyzee]

I should have broaden my categories but I made some so narrow because I wanted my sole purpose to be Person C. However , I would consider you a mix of person B and A. You're not completely closed off to the idea of dating others although you share main attraction towards your own.

[Stacyzee]

*I made them so narrow

[croxy]

Oh I understand now. I kinda got the impression that either you date your own race only, or you are 100% equally attracted to all races, or a closet racist. That seemed narrow minded to me, I'm glad that wasn't the case.

[Stacyzee]

Not definitely not the message I wanted to paint. I am aware more types of people exist , but my highlight of this discussion was person C because I wanted to bring undercover racism in the dating world to light.

Thanks for reading !
Thanks for your response.

[9mfeo]

From what I have seen, those who say they are in category B are really category C in denial.

That said, very well written and balanced take as always. *This* is the kind of content that deserves accolades and site-wide recognition.

[Stacyzee]

Thanks :)

I would refer to those in category B as close minded.
Some of them are just not open to the idea.
They do not posses any hatred however which is why I cannot view them as racist.

There's really a fine line between the two which makes it hard to label for others.

[9mfeo]

I understand completely. For me, it's the difference between racism and internalized racism. If you can't find a single person you find attractive within a particular race, are you really seeing those people clearly, you know what I mean?

It is indeed a huge waste of energy to hate.

[Stacyzee]

I understand your view as well. I can see why you think of it that way.

[ThePostMan]

Being black, I've encountered this many times. I've done blind dating and I've had women talk to me and tell mutual friends that I'm a great guy, but I didn't know he was black. Locally, I use a dating service and it's really upsetting, yes upsetting, to meet someone on a date and get told, "I don't date outside my race".

I've dated two women that thought I was a great guy and shortly after I met their parents, the relationship took a downhill slide. One told me that he parents said, "You don't date those people".

So yeah, this hits pretty close to home and I sometimes rant a little to vent.

[RationalMale]

So, I was curious, what is racism ignorance of? biology, genetics, psychology? Here. I specifically want my imaginary future children to be white, like me.

What am I ignorant of, that would make me go "psshaw, how stupid that was, it doesn't matter."

[Toad-1]

@RationalMale Why is it so important to you that your children look white?

[ThePostMan]

@RationalMale If you have to ask. Racism leads to a false sense of superiority over others based solely on the color of a person's skin.

by the way - That was an ignorant question to ask. If you are more worried about what your children will look like, instead of things you hope they will achieve, then you have a problem.

[RationalMale]

@Toad-1 same reason if i have kids i want the dna test to say i am the father 😂 why have kids if they won't even look related to you?

[oddwaffle]

There are social and economic variables in a person's preference. Black men are, based on statistics, on average: poorer and more likely to have some sort of criminal record. The causes for that can be anything from discrimination to society's perception. However, this creates a certain amount of preference for a woman looking to build a family. She doesn't know anything about the guy so she will gravitate towards the non-black males if she is under some form of economic pressure.

That doesn't mean every women will prefer white males but you will have a very strong number of preferences for them.

[takumii]

cf.girlsaskguys.com/.../...f-b52c-ecb40debb7b7.jpg

Look mommy, I made an oreo.

[Stacyzee]

Wow lol

[February12]

😂😂😂😂

[RainbowFanGirl]

Oh my, I totally agree with you. There's people who say they don't date black girls because of the stereotypes projected by society. That we are loud, sassy and whatnot. It is wrong to assume these things about all of us because of the stereotypes projected by society and to not date is because of it. If you don't find us attractive that is one thing, but to not date is because you want "pure" babies and because of our supposed demeanor then that's another thing entirely.

[RainbowFanGirl]

I guess some people think it's okay to stereotype people based on that actions of a few. Again, I never said that's it's wrong to have a preference, but when you based that preference off of stereotypes, then that is when it crosses the line as racist.

[lanternhill]

Or... I simply don't find the majority of black guys and Asian guys I've met to be attractive. I do not say the types of things you mention, I do not have a problem with marrying someone of another race - I just tend not to find them attractive. Some yes. Most no. I specifically have a thing for British guys and I think it's because the majority of my background is genetically British. I love the eye shape.

[lanternhill]

I guess that's close to B but not quite - I do find a lot of middle eastern and south Asian guys attractive. Just not east Asian or African. And I did read the whole thing but was thinking I would fall under C by virtue of not quite being A or B... but I guess not.

[Stacyzee]

Thanks for being honest with your response.
I would think you're somewhat of a mix between a and b.
You love your own. You find them the most attractive.
You are open to dating outside of your race even if that is not your physical preference.

[RedThread]

Great take. As someone who doesn't have a racial preference, it's always interesting hearing the reasoning behind it when people do.

I'd date a woman of any ethnic background but the odds are higher for some over others simply due to the environment I'm in.

[pavlove]

it's a bit more nuanced than that.

there's also person d) who i've seen a lot around here who only date one race and that race isn't their own. lots of black girls wondering if white guys will date them.

also, i think people in group b) would also make racist jokes because they are aware of race on some level. unless you're color blind you can't really avoid it though it doesn't make you racist unless you choose to hate because of it

[BigJake]

"Lots of black girls wondering if white guys will date them."

They're not wondering because they're actually interested in being with white guys, they're wondering because they want white guys to tell them that they're desirable. Black women are so bothered by being a second (or third) choice for so many black men that they're desperate to get some sense of validation. If they really wanted to date white guys, you'd see a lot more white guy/black girl couples around. The fact is, there aren't many out there, and that's proof that black women still aren't interested in non-black guys.

[pavlove]

@BigJake and also white guys are less open to it than white girls are open to black guys

[yowza67b]

@BigJake
Black women like white guys. Us white guys aren't attracted to black women for the most part.

[BigJake]

@yowza67b I don't think either group really likes the other. Black girls think white guys are too feminine, and white guys think black girls aren't feminine enough.

[pavlove]

@BigJake on the other side of it i think white girls like some black guys (the ones they're not scared of lol) but because girls tend to care a lot about what people think they can outright refuse their attraction. i've heard a lot of white guys can be downright nasty to a white girl who's dated black even going so far as to treat her like a leper from then on

[BigJake]

No, actually research shows that of all demographic groups, black girls are least likely to date outside their race. So, by that measure, black girls are the ones who aren't open to interracial dating, despite the questions you read on this site.

[pavlove]

@BigJake but is that by choice?

[BigJake]

Oh, absolutely. Most black women have been adamant throughout history that the only person they would marry would be a black man. The research is clear in its findings that women discriminate far more on the basis of race than men. Men aren't nearly as picky, because we're guided more by biology than by sociology.

[krash2002]

Back in the day of being single. I use to go specifically for Asian women. Not towards the degree of having "yellow fever", but more of the idea that I was attracted to the physical characteristics that most Asian women have. This did not stop me from dating other races, but in the end. I ended up with someone who was of Asian descent, and it started mainly due to physical attraction. The personality traits were also a perfect match for myself as well.

[pavlove]

@krash2002 good for you. if you have a racial preference you should just go for it. you'll be a better man because in your eyes she's a better woman and nothings wrong with that in my opinion

[krash2002]

@pavlove I completely agree. As long as it's a reasonable and healthy reason for choosing one race over the other. It's like having a favorite color of Green. You aren't going to settle for a Green Ford Focus when a Red Ferrari is in front of you, but if you can find a Green Ferrari out there. You bet your ass you'll go find it.

[Stacyzee]

@pavlove I'm aware more types of people exist. My soul purpose was really to target person C. A lot of people perceive people that only date outside of their race and not their own as someone who self hates. Some people find it impossible not to like your own phenotype. From personal observation, I have noticed some people like this tend to have bad experiences with their own race or feel they relate to other cultures more (so they lose interest in their own).
Anyway, my target was person c to reveal covert racism , which is why I didn't spend too much time speaking about the other types of people. I wanted to move this article in the direction that racism isn't always blatant. Sometimes it's right under your nose, just covered up.

People need to understand behind every joke lies some truth. If someone is constantly making racial jokes , and states they want nothing to do with that race. You have to ask yourself, is this more than meets the eye? Some people are racist but

[Stacyzee]

are not aware that they are. I've personally seen someone that says they never want nappy headed or dark skin kids and that they will be with only white men. Why is it no one ever questions that? Is it because the words "I have a preference " changes everything?
Racism is often masked and done In the. It's discrete way.

[pavlove]

Ah, guiding the reader where you want them to go. I like it. I like it a lot.

I agree the problem is it's impossible to call a person like this out because they can hide behind a right to racial preference. unless someone says something outright hateful about other races you kind of have to swallow it even if you suspect there's more to it. I like all your points though. I'm just trying to be practical.

[Stacyzee]

Okay , thanks for adding your view in this discussion.
<3 i must say, I am seeing a side of you I like in this post.
Me and you have butt heads numerous times.
I admire your view when it is delivered in a way that can effectively be heard instead of being one that condemns.

[pavlove]

ahhhh what is happening to meeee haha

[Anonymous]

Well... as you probably know, Indian men are considered the least attractive race of men by women all over the world. It's like they write off Indian men entirely, due to the negative stereotype associated with them.

As an Indian man, this has concerned me a bit. I have always bern made to believe that this is just a racial preference that women have. But from your myTake, it seems like these women just 'might' be racist.

Would you please clarify this for me?

[Stacyzee]

Let's start from the beginning. No one is born with a preference. Liking a particular race is a learned behavior which is influenced by environmental, societal , and cultural factors.
Whether someone is racist or not as to do with how they view that race.
Are they solely checking Indian off of their list because that is not their preferable type?
Or are they using that has a cover up to mask their hatred and stereotypes they have against that race?
Yes, some people do truly have a preference when it comes to dating. They have an ideal standard of what they find attractive. Unfortunately , Indian men go against that grain. Indian men will never fit into their standard idea of beauty.
Only when negative stigmas are attached and feelings of superiority are introduced , does this go beyond simple attraction and is racist. (Unfortunately , that's the case for plenty since a lot of racism nowadays is covert or institutionalized). Because of this racism is often overlooked.

[Stacyzee]

A lot of people expect racism to be blatant. But the truth is, most often it isn't. It's right under your nose just disguised.

[Opinion Owner]

Thanks a lot for your detailed comment!

So as an Indian man, I suppose there isn't too much of hope for me. Because all they see is my ethnicity, and can't get past that to find out that I'm just like every other, normal, human within.

[Stacyzee]

I see that you live in India. Aren't you mostly exposed to those of your own ethnic background? Why such a hard time dating then?

[Opinion Owner]

Well... Indian women are usually averse to dating. Most of them are too conservative, and prefer to marry the person chosen by their parents. I'm sure you have heard of arranged marriages.
The very few girls who are open to date, usually get lapped up before they complete their education. The skewed male-female ratio here (940 females per 1000 males) doesn't help the cause either. And Indian women too prefer men of other races. IF they have a choice.

Actually, the reason i asked this is, early next year I'll be immigrating to a different country. I just wanted to know where I stand, since women usually don't prefer Indian men. Except for my physical appearance, everything else about me is in sync with the developed world. So I was just wondering if women there would simply write me off due to my ethnicity/race, without even giving me a chance to prove that I'm as capable of being a good partner, as men of any other race.

[Stacyzee]

This is entirely understandable.
The truth is some will.
It's hard to accept that fact but there's not much you can do about it.
Since you seem like a great guy try to project that so women that are open to dating other races , will see that and gain interest.

[Opinion Owner]

Thank you! I'll see what best I can do. I'm quite inexperienced when it comes to dating, especially due to the environment here. I am actually immigrating due to career and education reasons, and I was just hoping maybe I would have better luck over there in terms of dating too. But it's just that my ethnicity might possibly play spoilsport and get in the way, although I have no other major 'flaws'.

Even during my early days on this website, I used to be racially discriminated a lot. Every question I posted, used to get replies like "what else do you expect? You're an Indian". and similar stuff. Thankfully, I don't usually face that issue too much on here now, and I just hope the view of women that Indian men are unattractive and undesirable, has toned down a bit in reality as well. :)

[Opinion Owner]

Actually, most women ARE open to date inter-racially, but they just wouldn't want to have anything to do with just Indian men.

[Stacyzee]

Geographically that "most" depends on which part of the world you are in.

I'm sorry you've experienced that on this site.
I must say you aren't alone.
I've seen my fair share of racist comments on here as well.

[Opinion Owner]

I had to go anonymous before revealing where I'll be moving to. Sorry about that, I somehow didn;t feel comfortable letting people know about it.

I will be moving to either Australia or New Zealand. Most likely Australia. I have already got my independent work permit for these countries, and just wrapping things up here. Should be able to move in a couple of months.

Yeah, those were my initial days on this site, when I sued a different account. Now, when people here have realised that my answers, opinions and comments don't really reveal my ethnicity, they just treat me like everyone else (except for a few racists, but that can't be helped). I just hope this translates to my real life as well.

[Stacyzee]

No, it's okay I understand. You can never be too safe regarding the information you give on the world wide Web.

I wish you well in where you choose to live. I think things will work out for you. <3

[Opinion Owner]

Thanks a lot for your kind words!

All I need, is just ONE woman to give me a chance to prove myself, in spite of my so-called 'unattractive' ethnicity, and I'm pretty sure I can make her feel special! :)

[abacaxi84]

Anon, if a racial stereotype exists against Indian men, then maybe that's more a thing with American women (it's mainly Americans who use this site)?

I am from the UK, and in the bigger cities, at least, seeing white women being involved with men from men from South Asia is really not that unusual. I've dated an Indian guy and a British-born guy of Indian descent in the past.

Hopefully Australia or NZ will be similar to the UK in that respect, and you can find a less close-minded girl there.

[Opinion Owner]

@abacaxi84

Yeah, I too have heard a few times that it's mainly American women who hate Indian men. I don't know how far that is true though, because I have never stayed outside India for too long.

Australia and New Zealand do have a lot more in common with the UK than the US, so hopefully I can find women there who are willing to look past my ethnicity and give me a chance. :)

[dudegrt09]

@abacaxi84
In my honest opinion American women like Indian men the most (as compared to UK, Australian or NZ women)... Most of them hardly know any Indian guys to from any kind of negative or positive stereotypes for them

[abacaxi84]

@dudegrt09 -- I have no idea either. I was just speculating because Anon was saying he got that impression from this site, that most women are put off by Indian men, and I am aware that way more Americans use the site.

I am not trying to say that no women in the UK hold racist views based on stereotypes, just that there's a large enough proportion who don't.
Maybe it's got nothing to do with UK vs US, and it's simply that the average woman who uses G@G is more likely to hold these stereotypes?

In sum, I was just curious why Anon felt that way, based on his interactions on the site.

[Opinion Owner]

@dudegrt09 and @abacaxi84

I dunno, it's not just from this site. Even on other forums, I always see women hating on Indian men, saying stuff like "Indian men are rapists", "They are ugly", "they smell like curry", "I wouldn't date an Indian man even if he was the last man alive" etc. These were women from different countries, including US, UK and Australia. One possible exception was Germany. German women said that they actually like dating Indian men.

[abacaxi84]

@Anon, some of that can be attributed to irresponsible news coverage here. After the gang rape that happened in New Delhi a few years back lots of British newspapers ran editorials about how India is terrible for women and every man there sexually harasses women, blah, blah.
I have a brain, so I'll reserve judgement until I actually visit, rather than basing my opinions on what the daily mail or some other nasty right wing rag prints.
Even if I did end up getting cat called more than in the UK, it would be pretty dumb for me to infer, just from the actions of a few dudes in the street, that every man in the country is like that!

[Opinion Owner]

Yeah, India is a highly corrupt country, where the media is owned by rich businessmen and ministers. who manipulate and project news according to their selfish needs. It raises the readership/viewership, and that's all they care about. Even when I travel abroad for work, the locals ask me "Is it true that Indian men rape every woman they see? Just wanted to get an accurate answer form you, since it seems exaggerated".

[dudegrt09]

Well personally if you ask me an average Indian male is creepy... in cultures where sexuality is repressed there is bound to be certain creepy factor... talking to girls here lot of Indian guys do send them creepy perverted messages here so can't really blame them for having such a opinion, what you can do is prove them wrong by behaving the exact opposite of what an average Indian male behaves like

[Opinion Owner]

I already behave in an almost non-Indian way. No doubt about that. But I wonder if the women will even look past my ethnicity. I mean.. except for my physical appearance, there is hardly anything 'Indian' about me. Some people even went to the extent of saying that unless I bleach my skin and adopt an Indian sounding name (so as to make myself appear mixed race), no girl would even consider me.

[dudegrt09]

I don't know why are you having these issues, if a woman doesn't like you for who you are she doesn't deserve your attention anyway, you just need to move on and have some self-respect... Most girls in real life would not judge you for your ethnicity, that has been my experience, and if they do I could care less about them, I would rather spend time pursuing girls who don't judge me for that... Australia though I've heard is pretty bad for Indians, probably because we always beat them in Cricket :P Australians seem to me to be the most ignorant people and after them I think the British... British media has vehemently tried to ruin India's reputation over the years even though British empire is itself responsible for several human rights violations and oppression in general...

[Opinion Owner]

@dudegrt09

So Aussies hate Indians? Are you sure about this? I mean... cricket is such a lame reason to be hating the people of a country. I dunno, maybe I should just not actively 'seek' women, whether it's India, Australia, or elsewhere. If something works out, well and good. If not, nothing much I can do. It really sucks to be the most hated race of men in the world. :(

[dudegrt09]

Honestly in my opinion the shit black men get is nothing as compared to Indians... Maybe you have problems with women in general and it has nothing to do with your race or ethnicity... Think about it... have you been with or dated Indian women? I'm sure Indian women are not biased against men of their own race, though it is accepted that Indian men generally are quite misogynistic and sexist in their attitudes...

[Opinion Owner]

No, I'm pretty sure I don't have a problem with women. I have been in 2 relationships in my life, both with Indian girls. That was several years ago, though. These days, even Indian women don't prefer Indian men, if they have other options.

Huh? Black men have it worse than Indian men? You seem to be in a parallel Universe, mate! Every damn study and survey shows that women consider Indian men the least attractive of all.

[TadCurious]

I don't think your characterization of Person C is consistent, and thus your essay is not as effective or as convincing as it otherwise might be. You state that "Person C may have many friends of different racial backgrounds." And then later you state that Person C has "deeply routed [sic] hatred for other races." I don't buy that formulation. I don't believe someone who has friends different racial backgrounds would have deeply rooted hatred for other races.

[Stacyzee]

It's a part of the cover up. As someone that has experienced life I have seen the in denial too many times.

[Anonymous]

Who a person wants to have sex with is their business, and it doesn't matter if you think they are racist, sexist, or anything else. It is a personal decision that each person can make for themselves even if you don't agree with it. You shouldn't care who other people are having sex with. It isn't any of your business.

Quit trying to shame people for not wanting to sleep with the people you think they should be sleeping with. There is why too much shaming of peoples sexuality as it is with out inventing new reasons to shame people for it.

[Stacyzee]

The problem with this society is that the moment someone formulates an opinion people are quick to say they are shaming. People nowadays are far too sensitive and need to get a grip. I am simply exposing the fact that there is racism in this world that is covered up. No where did I tell anyone who they should be attracted to or condemn them for it
I am a person who lives in this society. I have the right to care if people are attaching negative stigmas to me. It affects my daily way of living if I am the person who is constantly judged or given a bad name.
Saying I should hold a blind eye to racism is saying I should ignore world wide issues and allow them to spiral out of control
Ignoring a problem doesn't fix it.
Being aware of it does.

[Stacyzee]

The problem comes when people condemn other racial backgrounds and try to cover up the fact that they are racist. That is what my discussion is. As for people having a preference and not harboring any hate , I clearly did not state that I have a problem with that .

[Opinion Owner]

You are accusing people of being racist if they don't want to date a certain race. That is all you are doing. You aren't fighting against racism or bringing anything to light. You are just insulting anyone that has a preference by calling them a racist.

You are even going as far as to claim people aren't born with preferences to make all people with a preference look bad. Which is a lie anyway. People can be born with a preference. The way a person feels about you is their own business. You aren't entitled to a relationship.

Discrimination is a part of attraction. We all know that. People discriminate against height, weight, gender, and even age in dating and it is all perfectly fine. You like what you like. It doesn't matter why you like it. If you aren't attracted to a race, then that is also fine. You aren't required to be attracted to anyone to prove anything.

[Opinion Owner]

Don't give me that crap. You even called someone's mother the town whore on here. You aren't doing anything but trying to insult people.

[Stacyzee]

You have a problem with reading comprehension my friend. If someone is going around shouting obscenities about other racial backgrounds then what are they? Is this the over sensitive generation I live in now? Scared of labels? If an animal is a duck , must I not call it a duck because that word doesn't sound as good as another? I am "exposing" the truth which is what debunked means. Making people aware of truth helps the fight against it.
People disregarding height , weight is totally different. Why? For the simple fact those people could be of any race , hair or eye color.
Discriminating against an entire race bands ALL people of that race based on the factor of their skin.
At least when you bind height or weight there's still a variety of different people you are able to choose from.
Totally different topic.
bad comparison.

[Opinion Owner]

You are shaming people and you know it. You are throwing out personal insults while pretending you are having an intellectual conversation and failing. Your telling someone their mother is a whore pretty much proves my point.

We are talking about the way people feel. People are free to dislike anyone for any reason and that is fine. What you can't do is deprive a person of there rights do to racism, or to harass them about their race. Not wanting to have sex with someone because of their race is totally fine. The civil rights movement never had anything to do with who you want to have sex with.

Not wanting wanting to have sex with someone of a different race still leaves a variety of different people. it is just a different variety than you personally would prefer to see. So it is a good comparison.

[Stacyzee]

Your point is incorrect and invalid. The persons comment was removed by another moderator. They said much worse to me which is what triggered a response of that nature.

As long as there is breath in me I am entitled to have an opinion.
I was very descriptive in people like Person C because I want people to understand how much this racism is masked.
It's infuriating.
if you are racist by all means , be one but don't try to cover it up to look like someone else.

Your comparison is bad because like I said there's still a variety of people you can still choose from skin color , hair , eye color.
When you exclude other races , that variety is only limited to your own.
I have no problem with people who have preferences just those who feel themselves are superior , which most certainly you seem to feel you are since you are disputing this with me.

[Opinion Owner]

You still called his mother a whore. You don't get to pretend to be having a civil conversation on this forum after sinking to that level.

Yes you are entitled to have an opinion. As am i. My opinion is that you should stay out of other people's sex lives.

So what if you're only limited to your own race? For a lot of people that majority of the people they will ever meet. That is a lot of variety to choose from.

[Stacyzee]

If someone is calling me obscenities, then why should I respond with respect? It doesn't work that way. Respect is a two way street , something you clearly know nothing about.
You are a man standing behind the fact that it's okay for someone to condemn others , but it's not ok for others to take notice of it and call them what they really are.
This is beyond the topic of just "sex".
I listed numerous traits that people like Person C would posses , sex just happened to be just one of them.
As much as you have the right to discriminate , is the same right I have to formulate an opinion about people like you.
You must understand when you operate a certain way , people will judge.
It's a consequence of your action.
Practice love instead of harboring hate.
I'm not saying be open to dating all, but stop the hate that's flowing through your veins. We are all people.

[Opinion Owner]

And what did his mother do to you? You crossed a line, just admit it. Of course people will judge based on the actions we make. You are the one that needs to accept that. I don't have any hate in my veins. lmfao How dumb can a person be to think hate is flowing through a persons veins because they don't want to date certain races? lol

Anyway I never said I wasn't open to dating outside of my race. You jumped to that conclusion all on your own. All I said is that who a person wants to have sex with is their business and you should leave them alone.

[Stacyzee]

You're defending a guy solely based on the fact that you both probably have the same view. You're being captain save a hoe for no other reason than the fact you feel the need to band together in your close minded views with another.

You're the dumb person because apparently you totally missed the part where I clearly put I'm ok with preferences and not disputing them. I am solely disputing racism that is disguised as a mask to cover ones hatred.

Your so obsessed with sex.
Out of all of the things I listed about person C you seem to be the one stuck on the topic of sex.
Sounds like you care more than me.

[Anonymous]

The thing is, this whole 'preferences is racist' thing applies to white people most of the time. That's what annoys me.

Because every time I hear a black, hispanic or Asian woman say "I would never date a white guy" people don't care and respect their preference. But when a white man says "I feel more attracted to white women" every ethnicity will immediately form into some "racist" fury against him.

Even though you will most likely tell me you have never noticed this, but I witness this way all the time (real life & internet) for me to make this conclusion.

[Stacyzee]

I agree with your observation. I think it has to do with the fact of where we stand in society.

Whites are held up to a high standard and have been for a while.
Other races tend to be on the minority end, and do usually won't get as extreme of a bashing as a white person would (if they were to make a racist comment).

I believe racism can come from any race.
So, even when I hear a minority group make racial comments towards the opposite race I draw the same conclusion as I am here

[Anonymous]

Lol. Most girls got the point of this take but signifigant amount of guys comment shit like " you can't tell me who to fuck or date. I don't find black women attractive. I own nothing to them. I want my kids to be white and be proud of being white"

And these guys belong to group C.

[RainbowFanGirl]

Exactly, she wasn't telling the guys who to date.

[dudegrt09]

Well I don't have any definite preference as such but I have always found that it's white women who have seemed to be interested in me, and so I've only ever dated white women instead of my own race (with a few exceptions)...
Also is it possible for some women to have only sexual encounter with me or be friends with benefits but not seriously commit to me because I'm not of their race? maybe I'm in such a situation right now, and it's really hurting me

[Stacyzee]

Yes, it's very possible.
I wouldn't automatically assume that however unless the person gave me reason to believe that.
Some people see other races as a fantasy or experiment and would never want a committed relationship with them , only good times beneath the sheets.

[dudegrt09]

I can't be too sure about her, she seems to be very commitment phobic person, I never asked her if she ever had a non-white serious boyfriend... she used the n- word once and said that she never means it as offence and she knows she's not racist cause she has black friends and they use n-word all the times. She said that this word is made offensive in US (she is from Europe) and should not be considered as something offensive

[Stacyzee]

I don't want to past judgment on her because I don't personally know her. However, she sounds a lot like "Person C" from my article. Do you really like this girl? I don't think she understands the depths of what she is saying. Just because a few black people, who also don't understand the impact of the "n" word use it, doesn't make it okay for her to do the same. She needs to understand what that word exactly routed from and its impact in history. It seems as if she says a lot of things without giving them much thought.

[nymous1234]

Awww that girl sounds a lot like person C :(

[dudegrt09]

That makes me so sad :(
But even I have heard that this word means old king in many African languages and was never supposed to me offensive until Europeans and colonialists gave it a bad meaning... She says that she knows she doesn't mean it as an insult to blacks, it's just American standards which has made it racist

[Stacyzee]

www.africaresource.com/.../

It doesn't matter what meaning the word is derived from. She knows the way in which it has been used and still is. She is justifying her behavior and making obscenities seem ok.

Since you seem to like this girl, I feel you should have a open discussion with her to better understand her. Find out where you stand in terms of dating.

[dudegrt09]

She has made it clear that we are just friends who are having fun...
I don't know what questions I can raise to know if she is a type c person... We live in different countries, have a significant age difference (she's much older), she's never been married, don't want kids, so seems like she doesn't want to commit with anyone regardless of race...
But when i told her i'll visit her in her country she said she doesn't want me there since I will get boted when she's away for work or when she's travelling with friends... That really irked me cause the only reason i could see for her to not wabting me there was that I was not Spanish or white...