Man As Initiator: Why Courtship Roles Shouldn't Change🚶🏽💭❤️

[justbanANNAz]

Yes, I'm a traditional girl. No, I'm not stuck in the 50's.

I believe in gender roles and their benefits, but not necessarily that one must confine themselves to the way society expects an individual to perform.

Society has progressed. Society has opened HIS mind to include the possibility of HERstory too, and I as a woman am thankful to now have the opportunities I do, as opposed to the past.

Education, voting, household duties, rights, the workplace, status... it's all changing, and will continue to. Changes like these needed to be made to produce a society that recognises everyone.

But what about love? ... Well, I don't believe the roles in courtship [as in, a serious relationship] should change at all.

I believe in man as the initiator-

the instigator.

Now if you are a human who is tired of tradition

then these coming thoughts may disturb you,

so I'll save you some time and bid you adieu.

Let us start with the question

of 'why must I, as man, make the first move?

Why is this not the role of a woman...

and what exactly does this prove?'

The answer appears when she hears these 3 words:

"I.Choose.YOU."

I

Interpret this 'I' as confidence. Yup, y'all know how sexy it is! You... as a man who is sure of himself, and sure of the decision that he is making. This is the decision that comes from YOUR heart, after all your years of experience, or even lack thereof. Can you see how different it is to "she chose me?"

Think to yourself... "Who is 'she'? 'She' is more prone to emotion than I am anyway, and this is not a gender construction. This is biology, it is proven psychology. So 'she', realistically, could choose me, yet what foundation lies behind her choice that differentiates me from somebody else?"

Choose

This is important. It's the central argument of mytake. Most [not all] men have a huge issue with commitment, or envisioning a LONG future with one woman anyway. A lot of women [again, not all] on the other hand, envision that emotional bond quite easily. Therefore, it holds, in my eyes, more value for a man to essentially abandon his instincts and CHOOSE a woman to call his. Linking back to the biological perspective, very few species of animals and birds mate with one partner for life. Across ALL species however, the males ALWAYS begin the courtship ritual AND they instinctively aim to seduce the female they are interested in through various performances or indicators. So, forgive me for this next inquiry... but why is it that the human mind has to complicate 'mating' so much that it's now become a battle of 'who should be doing what'?... Could it be that these animals are in fact, more intelligent than us, in simply not overthinking?

YOU

You decided that it was no one else but Her.

Her.

Not that other girl whom you once had a crush on,

not the hottest chick on campus,

not the popular one that every guy was trying to get with,

not the one you only wanted to fuck for a night or two,

not the 'going- out-every-night-with-my-boys' life,

not the 'getting-laid-with-a-different-girl- every- night' life,

not the 'i'm- too-shy- to-even- go-near-her' life,

not the 'i'm-scared-she'll-reject-me' life,

not the 'i'll-be-popular-if-i-get-her' life,

... but the 'I Just Want To Be With Her' life. <3

I can tell you boys now, that in the mind of a woman, for you to choose us amid everything else- to be chosen.. singled out as 'the one' or even 'potentially the one', is one of the most amazing feelings in the world. I hate that I can't adequately type it out in description to make you understand.

It takes a strong man to make an effort for a woman- to hold her and say 'I choose you'... because that's not all that's happening.

You're saying so much more.

... God I love controversy. Ready for the shitstorm. ✌🏽

PS: I wanna add a note for any women who will take offence to this or begin talking about how they like approaching men. Never said you shouldn't, keep doing you boo boo, even I've done it a number of times. I have nothing against that. That's not the point of this mytake.

~j.B🍌

[LadyTerror]

I'd have to disagree here. It seems that you're implying that women are not supposed to "choose" their mates since that's only a man's job. You also keep talking about confidence when really, the fact that you don't approach just show lack of confidence on your part.

And there's no way to know if a guy likes you back unless you actually let him know. If you don't make a move, there's a big chance that you might just have to let him go. This decreases your chances of finding a partner by a lot. It also doesn't help that most guys these days are terrible at reading signals.

[justbanANNAz]

"PS: I wanna add a note for any women who will take offence to this or begin talking about how they like approaching men. Never said you shouldn't, keep doing you boo boo, even I've done it a number of times. I have nothing against that. That's not the point of this mytake."

[LadyTerror]

Yeah I know. I wasn't offended or anything. Just voicing my own opinion :)

[tyber1]

You say you believe in the benefits offered by gender roles. But what benefits? The benefits are not to be found on this side of the road. This is just an example of women holding all the cards in dating, and giving away all the responsibilities to the man so the woman won't be hurt or inconvenienced. Women expect men to invest their emotions and money into her before she will invest anything in us. A relationship is supposed to be mutual, like dancing. Instead it's one sided like a job interview.

[tyber1]

I'm just going to point out that my ex would have called me the definition of romantic and a gentleman. Doing nice things for her and surprising her and all that was actually fun in large part because she didn't expect me to. And she would return the favor too. My ex gave me the option to sleep with other women, she opened up our relationship but only on my end. And I never even tried to sleep with anyone else. She chose me in the beginning and I chose her right back when I could have done whatever I wanted. But women like you, you're toxic. You consider yourself and how you wish to be treated and give no consideration to the other side or what you are bringing to the table to make it worthwhile. And this sense of romantic entitlement is so widespread that it just ruins dating for almost everyone. Being a gentleman for a girl who expects you to be a gentleman isn't cute or fun, it's a chore and that's what women like you have turned dating into for men.

[Oram52]

"My ex gave me the option to sleep with other women, she opened up our relationship but only on my end."

Opened only on your end but why was she ok with it or allowed you to begin with?

[tyber1]

@Oram52 I don't know but it was her idea.

[DeadBattery]

Yeah man, well said. @Opinion owner:)

[BuchitaBuchys]

Stop acting like women don't do anything in relationships.

I actually prefer to be the initiator but even when I didn't, relationships take work, not just for men but women too

[Oram52]

@BuchitaBuchys
wth Buchita replying to 14 day old thread. Drunk?
Tell us what women do in relationships.

[tyber1]

@BuchitaBuchys women don't do anything at the start of a relationship. Not apologizing for the truth.

[hellionthesage]

The starting premise is inaccurate as women have always been treated better then men, just as they are today, in fact your entire take proves it. It essentially states that men where sexist and treated women poorly and I want to be treated special like men use to treat women. It's contradictory. Either women where treated poorly or they where not. Men couldn't vote for almost all of history (only earning the right 67 years before women i. e. one generation) but unlike women men where forced into multiple types of conscription unlike women and where legally required to provide for there wives (coveture for instance required the man to pay taxes on his wife's property which is why he was granted the property it being unfair to make him responsible for it and giving him no authority over it. This is also why he would be arrested if his wife incurred a debt that HE couldn't pay) which is why women where against women's suffrage because they did not wish to have the same responsibilities/lose there special priviledges. As for your seasonings for rigid gender roles that only apply to men but not women, why should a man do all of this for you? You get to be pampered and to feel special but what does he get other then the priviledge of getting used by you? See you have completely ignored his wants and needs (i. e. objectified him) in your entire take you have states that he should stick to his gender role because it's beneficial to you. The reason employees pay there employees or why you have to provide a good or service to get a customer to pay you is because any other system is not going to benefit the individual in question and thus will insure that they not participate. Women who think as you do are the reason men do not act in the way you want, because it's to your benefit and there detriment. He takes the risk he puts in the time he puts on the resources and you. . . Give nothing in return. It's easier for him to simply go out and get a one night stand then do all of this, at least this way he invests fewer resources and gets some kind of pay off. Refusal to reciprocate in any fashion is only going to ensure what you want to happen won't, after all nobody wants to be some one else's slave/tool.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Lol GaG men are such self victimising babies

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Yeah, purile insults/ad hominid attacks are a logical rational and appropriate counter to my statements. Facts prove my point history proves my points, statistics prove my point. You whining your complaining bitching your attacks your need to be the absolute victim your need to have men be the scape goat for all the "suffering" in your life will not alter that. So as every guy has been told countless times in his life, grow a pair and deal with it. Its not going to change anything you acknowledging facts or not.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Yes, and I feel so bad for slaveowners for *having* to take care of their slaves.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Your an idiot. You have no understanding of history and yet pretend like you do. Again who died and who lived? Who lived in comfort who slogged through the mud? Who broke their back to provide and who accepted what was provided? You would have to be a complete narcassitic moron not to realize that what your saying is wrong. Your an idiot I'm sorry that you have chosen a delusion over reality but I can't control that you want to be delusional fine, but please don't bother me with it I know the facts the statistics (as you do since I have already told you this before) so you playing victim so others can pamper you more then they already do is not going to work with me so go troll some one else.

[BuchitaBuchys]

You used the wrong "your" twice, normally I wouldn't care. But it's hilarious since you are trying to call me an idiot.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys But you are an idiot. First spelling is irrelevant as its always been subject to change, in fact their was no standardized spelling until the early 1700's when the printing press became commonplace. Two the purpose of the written word is to express ideas as long as the idea is understood it has fulfilled its function. Three Hemmingway, Agatha Christie (The best selling novelist of all time) as well as countless more where terrible spellers despite being writers i. e. spelling is irrelevant. So attempting to belittle some one based upon their ability to arrange arbitrary symbols in arbitrary orders based upon arbitrary rules is idioticly stupid. As for the rest of my remark, you are an idiot, you have chosen to ignore facts because you like the sound of a delusion more that is and always will be idiotic. You are wrong provably so but you refuse to accept it so what would you call it if not stupidity/idiocy?

[BuchitaBuchys]

Don't you mean "YOUR an idiot?" Lol

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys what a sad and pathetic person you must be, if you disagree give a reason back it with evidence or fuck off. I'm not going to play this game where you try and instigate a fight because it makes you feel validated. I don't mind a debate or discussion but you insulting me because you are so filled with self loathing isn't appealing to me. You can't argue against self hatred, which is precisely what your doing. Your trying to start a fight so that I validate your views your feelings towards men (your hatred of them and pity for your self). Provide a reasoned argument or wallow in pity and anger some where else.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Yes, you are.

And there's no point. In the military, they have a saying. You cannot do much to help someone unless they stop mindfucking themselves.
You are so deep into self victimization, completely mindfucked, there's very little any outside influences can help with.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Yet you have no evidence to back up any of your claims and I do. Strange isn't it?

[BuchitaBuchys]

I see claims but no sources. Strange isn't it?

I can make up shit too, or go on sites that twists statistics to fit my agenda as well.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Really? I have provided sources so many times and you and others have ignored them, however if you want to play this game fine, and don't try and claim that feminist websites don't twist facts but the CDC NCVS and every other one I provide does.
www.saveservices.org/.../
https://time.com/3393442/cdc-rape-numbers/
www.acrosswalls.org/.../
www.gilderlehrman.org/.../legal-status-women-1776%E2%80%931830
Then you have the fact that in the western world its illegal to circumcise a woman yet it is perfectly legal to circumcise an infant male child.
Then of course the lack of reproductive rights as for instance hermmsman vs seyer stated that no matter the circumstance of pregnancy the man was still obligated to provide for the child in the form of child support, the case was where a 12 year old boy was raped by his babysitter and then forced to pay child support to her.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys This has been upheld in most states like Arizona (where a 14 year old was raped by a 30 year old woman) and in florida where a man had his sperm stolen from a sperm bank by his ex who impregnated herself and successfully sued for child support: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermesmann_v._Seyer
www.usatoday.com/.../
www.uptownmagazine.com/.../
www.naturalnews.com/...aternity_child_support.html
www.cnn.com/.../
www.nydailynews.com/.../...y-not-article-1.2578736
Thus showing that men have no reproductive rights but women do. Men have no parental rights thanks to unfair divorce laws: www.irp.wisc.edu/.../...S_09-11_Final_revi2012.pdf
The break down: judgybitch.com/.../
Then of course courts are bias in favor of women resulting in a huge sentencing gap where women get a third of the sentencing that men do for commiting the same crime: www.law.umich.edu/.../...r_gender_disparities.aspx
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../...r-gap_n_1874742.html

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys The wage gap doesn't exist except in select fields where it is strictly beneficial to women: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpYXn1e2PHg
There is more then likely a lot more that I am forgetting but this is more then enough proof to prove my point (not that it matters your just going to ignore it anyway and make up what ever excuse you can for why its all wrong or your not even going to bother with that and just insult me again acting as if verbal attacks are the same as evidence). So which is it going to be, you insulting me and ignoring my evidence or you making up an elaborate excuse for why everything I stated is absolutely false because "reasons"?

[BuchitaBuchys]

It exists but it's not 72cents it's more like 96 cents. And for single, childless women it's actually helpful 1.07.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys As the video points out it doesn't exist because its not discrimination but choice. Women are less likely to travel further for a job that pays more, they take more sick days and vacation days, are less likely to work overtime and holidays and gravitate to jobs that pay less but have more flexible schedules. So any gap is due to choice not decrimation mean while the advantages that they get like how the highest paid model made 43 million life time earnings and the highest paid male model made only 1.3 million life time earnings shows a massive wage gap that has nothing to do with work ethic. When social workers make a dollar more then men who statisticly are more willing to work longer hours and more rigid schedules that is questionable, same with STEM fields. All of those benefit women and exist as far as any one can tell (since they benefit women know one really does any research on them) are purely due to gender bias. Same with highering quotas where we only have

[BuchitaBuchys]

That's even with such factors taken into account

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys them in male dominated fields that women want but do not have them in female dominated fields like education where 80% of teachers are female despite evidence showing that male students respond better to male teachers, or social work where its 80% women, or psychology where its 80% women, or HR jobs which by the way deal with "sexual harassment" and various gender related issues in offices and businesses yet are comprised of 80% women (I mention the harassment because this is why there is no harassment against men reported because their is an extreme bias). Then you have women claiming that girls score better in math when their gender is unknown, yet no one talks about how boys score better in writing when their gender is unknown (and this from a system run almost entirely by women): www.youtube.com/watch

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Yet strangely despite their being hiring quotas for women and none for men, we also see in society everyone talking about how men have it better, we need more women in politics etc. Funny part being we have more male homeless at about 80% of homeless are male: www.telegraph.co.uk/.../...mostly-impacts-men.html
which no one talks about claiming poverty is a "womens issue" 80% of mining is by men (and if you look at that 20% female group, it is almost entirely in upper management) as well as construction and oil rig workers, garbage pickers etc all the lowest level jobs are operated by men yet their are no female quotas for those only the good jobs and we claim how men are at the top yet ignore how men are disporportionatley at the bottom too. So what are your thoughts on every thing else I stated?

[BuchitaBuchys]

Just because those are issues, but that doesn't mean female don't have issues

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Exactly what I expected. I never stated women don't have issues not once what I stated is that mens issues are rampant and no one cares, they either deny them like you did, or when given overwhelming evidence make up an excuse for why they don't care i. e. women have issues too. The fact is what ever issues women have are being addressed, laws are passed society alters in order to address said issues. Whats being done about mens issues? Nothing. People like you ignore them claiming women need more help more everything (I also forgot to mention that when it comes to health women receive three times the spending both in the public and private sectors then men do. If you look prostate cancer affects more men and is more leathel then breast cancer yet you never hear any one talk about it and it gets three times less spending then the less dangerous breast cancer). This is the usual response and its unsurprising but also disappointing. This is precisely the problem.

[BuchitaBuchys]

I never denied men's issues. I just said you self victimize too much. Next you're gonna say poor white people. Were the most oppressed!

I'm not saying they don't have or face issues but it's not as bad you claim.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Yes you did say they don't have issues you are literally denying their issues right now. It is as bad as I claimed and I proved it with the sources you demanded which as I stated you immediately dismiss. I literally proved women have all the rights and men have none, women have all the privlidges and men have none and your immediate response is to claim victimization of yourself and women and to state that men don't have it that bad. They make up 75% of suicide victims 80% of homeless 98% of all workplace accidents and deaths, 70% of domesetic violence victims, get 63% more sever punishments under the law simply for being male, have their health ignored while womens health receives 300% more attention, have no reproductive rights, no paternal rights, are subjects to the whims of women during divorce and your claim is men don't have it that bad? This is why I stopped posting links, every one ignores them, preffering their own delusional world.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Show me verbatim where I said they don't have issues? You're just continuing with false claims

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys You didn't say they had no issues you said women have issues too, the moment I mentioned male issues thus shifting the focus to womens issues ie ignoring the male issues. You stated that men don't have it that bad and I am "self victimizing" despite the fact that I proved empirically they really do have it that bad since everything I stated was backed by hard facts and data (unlike anything you have claimed). So by extention you have essentially stated that men have no issues at least no issues worth noting, that men do not matter because you cannot be bothered to be concerned with their issues. So your right what you said was much worse then claiming men had no issues, you claimed that you didn't care about their issues by downplaying them or outright side stepping the issue entirely.

[BuchitaBuchys]

I actually didn't bring up female issues. You did.

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys "Just because those are issues, but that doesn't mean female don't have issues" as I stated you brushed off the male issues while claiming women have issues and by brushing off the male issues while claiming women have issues (which I never argued against) you are prioritizing womens issues. And yes as the quote shows you did mention female issues.

[BuchitaBuchys]

If you could read better, you'd see YOU were the one who brought up female issues first. That was merely a response to it

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Your pathetic, you insult because you have nothing else you twist statements because you can't acknowledge the truth. I'm done I have provided overwhelming evidence you continue to ignore it so you can wallow in self pity and as you call it "self victimization" How people like you can live with themselves is beyond me how you can dismiss everything ignore your own statements or play your game where you pretend that since you didn't explicitly state it that you didn't say it (as if communication was that straight forward). So yeah I'm done with you go find some one else to troll but it won't make you feel better about yourself it won't prove your right its just going to end up the same way as this.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Again, you're the one who mentioned it first. I'm not sure why you're attacking me for responding to something you said first

[hellionthesage]

@BuchitaBuchys Its Irrelevent that's whats frustrating about this. Who the fuck care who mentioned it first? That's why this is pathetic. Their are actual problems and your ignoring it your trying to start a fight your trying to ignore the male issues by down playing them then claiming women have issues too which is just a way of saying that those are the issues that matter not the ones that affect men.

[BuchitaBuchys]

You mentioned it first though lol I literally responded to that. Had you not said it, I wouldn't have said what I said. Duh. This is 1st grade shit

[AriadneSky]

thing is regardless of who initiates BEING in a relationship is saying i CHOOSE TO BE HERE. its easy to pick a person to ask out. or even ask to be your parter. its the actual relationship that takes work and hows by being there and caring that you choose to be there. i really think that who initiates really doesn't matter or prove anything bc its being with each other that matters.

also it is not proven that Women are more emotional. I've read plenty of studies claiming the opposite. What is documented is just that they are more expressive (probably bc its held against gem if they are not). and i think its demeaning to claim a woman imitating doesn't men anything bc she can't tell the difference from one guy to another. And, anyhow, even if a person were 'more' emotional that means they UNDERSTAND they feelings beer it doesn't men they are therefore incompetent to make decisions.

i dont have any problem y all with your view and i know many people share it and thats ok.. buy can't agree bc i think

1 initiating is relatively insignificant in the long run its the easiest part.

2 women are no less capable of making a solid decision romantically.

3 a lot of women feel really good having the confidence to go after what they want. its who they are or want to be.

4. we change over time. we are not as we were 100,000 years ago and -hopefully- we won't be the same 10,000 years from now. experience shaped us and continue to shape us. who we were (which we dont really ow exactly bc there are not note books left in caves by or ancestors) does not explain who we are or who we can be. what it indicates is how we have developed.

but i can see this issue is important and you put effort into the take, without tying to insult any, so can appreciate tat :-)

[justbanANNAz]

Thank u for ur valuable input. I appreciate your understanding and respect for my views, as i respect yours xx

[popsickle]

I like a blend of modern and traditional, but it's amazing to me how guys assume traditional roles make it easier for the woman. Really? I could understand that view when it comes to a man who works more and more hours as a single income household feeling very stressed, but most men are working the same amount of hours as women with incomes who simultaneously raise families. Usually traditional women put a lot of expectations on themselves too. Homemaking is not easy, if it was... everyone would be flocking to do it rather than everyone tending towards education and work. The fact that women have been fighting to get away from that and men haven't really rushed to assume those roles says a lot on its own.

Anyways, I think courtship roles should become whatever they are meant to become. If more and more women become initiators, men will have to adjust and become more meticulous about physical appearance like women in order to keep up. Currently, a man would have his best chance by doing the courting.

[Jager66]

This is a good take and for the most part I think it's fairly true although people are nothing if not diverse so it's unlikely that we will have a one size fits all solution to these problems.

Also, this is wrong in my opinion.

"Across ALL species however, the males ALWAYS begin the courtship ritual AND they instinctively aim to seduce the female they are interested in through various performances or indicators. So, forgive me for this next inquiry... but why is it that the human mind has to complicate 'mating' so much that it's now become a battle of 'who should be doing what'? Could it be that these animals are in fact, more intelligent than us, in simply not overthinking?"

Humans are by far the most socially complex species on the planet. We also have the ability to destroy the planet. Therefore it's important that we don't let instinct/biology determine how we choose mates because if we continue to do so we WILL destroy the planet and likely our selvs along with it.

For example the female instinct to nest, gather resources and choose a high status/high resource mate is what prevents us from going extinct while we evolved and developed technology, in that sense it is a very good thing.

However, in the modern era that instinct is a huge factor in what drives us toward our own destruction by destroying our oceans, forests, atmosphere, global warming, war, huge divides between rich and poor, etc...

So for humans I think it's very important that we overthink this stuff and try to figure out how we can curb our instinctual drives or direct them in a positive way instead. Otherwise we will destroy our selves and the world with us.

[Keepcalm89]

Great mytake! I always like reading your mytakes. I wish I can see more like this, this is not a popular subject and I know that I'll make many uncomfortable reading it.

Now question, how is a guy suppose to know that you want him to make a move on you? A guy will never know unless he's told. She'll be so turned off if I made a move and she was not expecting it.

I can choose a girl, but nothing garantees that she'll choose me. You make it sound like by just choosing her she will choose you back. Not the case

Confidence is a good trait that many guys including myself don't have much of. Confidence (and all the good that comes from it) doesn't guarantee you anything, even be liked back or be found sexy at all.

I think it will work better if the guy has some position at a place.. I seen how some women flocked to guys that held positions at my past jobs, and hardly notice the regulars as myself or didn't think much of them.

I think I'm still insecure and lack much confidence to do this kind of thing. I'm that guy that is still too shy to talk to the girls he likes... That is one of the things that I dislike about myself. The not-being-able-to-talk-to-her-due -to shyness-shit.

I was not like those guys that could easily chat up a girl and she'll respond in a positive manner and we both are laughing and flirting and her twirling her hair, I wish that I could say I was like that but nope. that hardly or ever happened to me before. Very few times. Not as much as I'd liked or how is done by the regular man.

I pray everyday to be this kind of guy that you write about here. that maybe someday I can say that I'm this kind of guy, that I can clearly see, women expect, for me to be. Someday I'll be. I'm not a hopeless case, I'm making progress everyday but I'm not this guy yet.

[fleur-de-lys]

I totally agree with you. Men should show some initiative and interest, otherwise, why should we bother? They like the chase and being pursued turns them off. It shows neediness and at worse, desperation. I would be more attracted to a guy who goes for it, who is confident and makes a move than the cutest guy sitting at the bar staring at me and not doing anything, even though I have signalled my interest. Most women want to be conquered, to be wooed. If the guy does not make any effort, why should we respond? We'd just be wasting out time and devotion. This also applies to follow-up after a date. If he does not call back or waits a week or 2 before touching base with you, you should not bother. It shows he's not really interested.

[justbanANNAz]

thanks for that input. I'm glad u can understand my perspective.

[fleur-de-lys]

You know what? You should add a poll to ask women if they prefer the guy to make the 1st move (after they have shown some interest and given the signal), and I bet you that the majority would say 'yes'.

[justbanANNAz]

ill have a think about that. thanks =]

[VerbalWN]

@fleur-de-lys out of curiosity. Can you give an example of how you would show a guy interest an signals that you might give. That also wouldn't be interpreted as you just being friendly.

[genericname85]

1. tell that to all the feminazis who complain about white male supremacy all day long xD

2. i disagree with those feminazis but i disagree with you too. yeah i understand it is hot if a guy you like does that to you. everybody would like that but how is the guy supposed to know that you´d like him to do it?

3. in my opinion, this point of view you present is just cowardly giving responsibility away, not taking any initiative, just letting them do everything to you. pretty much the negative female equivalent to a male macho.

[justbanANNAz]

Lol no worries dude

[YepThatsIt]

While I don't mind being the person who starts things I do have to emphasize that men enjoy hearing that just as much as you do - Maybe more.

So I am not against it. Since men are more likely to be rejected I suppose it does show more confidence. That said over here it is (in my personal experience) more common that women initiate than men.
Same goes for practically everywhere. Here the girl will actually walk up to you and tell you she's into you. In the states she'll wink and flirt from a distance. Show you that inviting smile.
Women have pretty much always been the initiators either way. Some people just fail to see it.

[justbanANNAz]

i am aware of the male's point of view, even though i didn't include it. that wasn't the point of the mytake.

i appreciate your understanding though, so thanks.

[feminismisnarcissism]

you dont have the first clue about the male POV justbanANNAz

[Xseed]

It's a good perspective. I like that you mentioned how in all of the animal kingdom, males almost always attract the females first. There is truth to that. However, no other animals have progressed as fast and as amazingly as humans have. We rule the world for God's sake. We broke out of our genetic programming and with each generation, our way of thinking changes.

Personally, I think men should be the assertive ones and the ones to lead women in romantic and sexual courses. Women find it sexy and it's fun to ask the girls out. Kind of like honing a skill to attract mates. So as the world changes i look forward to being approached by women just as much as doing the approaching myself.

Woman gets mad points for having the balls to go up to a guy and talk to him though.

[justbanANNAz]

Thanks, i agree with all u said and i loved how u civilly expressed ur own view. Thank u.

[posted]

I I feel like the odds of a girl having a boyfriend is somehow greater than the opposite.
" but why is it that the human mind has to complicate 'mating' so much that it's now become a battle of 'who should be doing what'? "
Wired into random mammals and other species to do displays to attract the opposite sex, how things go.

Anyway I personally believe it should change a bit. GIrls are generally pickier than guys and a lot of them sit there and wait for the specific guy to do something , when he never does they get incredibly salty and forget they have two legs + a mouth and can also initiate haha. I wouldn't say most men have a huge issue with commitment when there are so many girls posting here with 'I'm basically bored of my boyfriend now, should I dump?' haha.

[DeadBattery]

A woman is not supposed to be something we choose, work hard to prove ourselves to, then finally have. Love is reciprocal, she should at least take a few steps for my hundred steps. Otherwise, she would be just another shampoo on the shelf ; I would be choosing without knowing if it is really the one for me ;)

[justbanANNAz]

... i dont know why people are thinking that I'm oblivious to the fact that love goes both ways, just because I've chosen to focus on one particular angle...

[Truthatanycost]

This is all fine but the hookup culture means there aren't any worth choosing... similar to that list you mentioned...''You decided that it was no one else but Her.''

''Her... not the girl whom you had a crush on... or the hot chick on the campus'' etc etc...

Problem is that when you chose a woman in today's hookup culture, she has already been with Tyron, Jim, John, Ron, Rob, Mark, Mick, Mike, Tim, Jack, Harry, Steve, Jane, Julie, Mary, Lucinda, Melony, Jules, and... Dick...

It goes both ways... no matter what way you phrase it, there is no point in dedicating and investing in someone that has invested in everyone...

[Theo1987]

Amen! If a girl want's to be my "one and only" she needs to meet me half way. You can't get the part if you can't play the part ;)

[Truthatanycost]

@Theo1987 You are very unlikely to meet a woman that fits that standard... Consider the statistics for Gonorrhea infection and the age range is 15-24. That age range makes up 50% of the stats. When you take into consideration all of the other stds it just gets worse...

This is why people keep on telling you that the past is the past because they do not want to be held accountable.

[Theo1987]

Unlikely, but not impossible ;) I'm naively optimistic. But if all else fail I have an awesome career so living the single life isn't exactly a death sentence either!

[Theo1987]

And I hate it when people say "The past is in the past" as if that was a legitimate excuse. I'll try saying that to the judge next time I'm on trial for murder...

[Truthatanycost]

@Theo1987 It's not impossible but the problem is that when it eventually fails with that needle in a haystack, you will have a hard time finding another one. This is why I simply do not bother... it would be like visiting the local sewer each weekend hoping to find an area that was not covered with...

[Theo1987]

That is something I can agree on :/ When I'm rejected by a good girl it hurts a heck of a lot more. It's like misplacing a winning lottery ticket.

[BeautifulMind59]

Agree or disagree, this is what WORKS - ALL the time.
Guys, you want to sweep a girl off her feet, listen to this advice.
You want to be a grumpy old man alone without a girl, fine. That's your choice. While you are grumbling and explaining and deciding the "should"s and "must"s that are based on some theory, the smart guys out there will be getting all the girls by just going by nature's theories and playing the game by it's rules.

[justbanANNAz]

lol i like ur bluntness :P thanks for ur input

[Cosytoasty]

I dont think this dynamic has actually changed much, despite what people say. Something i've observed without fail is that you have to chase the people you really want and get chased by the people you would only find passable. Without sounding conceited, almost every girl that has ever approached me with real intent at a relationship has not been quite my type either looks or personality wise and my lasting relationships have always been with girls i've pursued.

[justbanANNAz]

this was really valuable, thank u.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Although I don't really agree, I do like how you laid out your points.
As someone has been rejected by every man she has asked out, it can be frustrating and destroys your self confidence temporarily, at first.
So I can see how bitter these dudes are.
I feel that "signals" are a bit silly. And that it can be frustrating.

However, I do feel that the average man does have final say in commitment. So I can see why it's better for them to initiate. But I still prefer to ask out.

[justbanANNAz]

Thanks for the input. I appreciate it.

[Mesonfielde]

I disagree and am countering it with my take here:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a29594-women-as-initiators-why-courtship-roles-should-change

[93stepsawayfromhome]

So I read this whole thing, and my first thought was, "you can easily turn all this around". Then I saw this.

I shouldn't even be surprised. 11/10

[Slikmix]

@93stepsawayfromhome I didn't even read it and I agree with you.

[Mesonfielde]

@Slikmix technically it's pretty much the same thing except it makes the claim that "yes, gender roles should change" and then "women" is changed to "men" and vice versa. And there were other minor changes, but it's pretty much the same, except it's the opposite :D

[ihatethiswebsite]

I could never be with a traditional person. In most cases it seems that they want the guy to do everything while she sits by and Benefits by it. Typically the traditional girl wants the guy to take all of risks so she doesn't. You could be different but that seems to be the way most traditional girls are.

[yololoyo]

It's much more fun to take risk dude

[justbanANNAz]

eh, living by that assumption limits u.

[RandomBritishGuy94]

Translation - Women should get all the good of changing gender roles and none of the bad.

Sorry but it doesn't work that way. Men are becoming less willing to "choose" someone in the way you're talking about. Life isn't a Disney film. Both people have to work at relationships and their is no valid reason, in my opinion, that shouldn't also include starting relationships.

[fleur-de-lys]

Yes, both people need to work at a relationship and do their part, but when it comes to initiating it, guys should show some interest, especially if you have shown it and given him all the signals. Why bother if a guy cannot even make a move and have some initiative? Being confident and getting out there to get what you want is supposed to be a masculine trait. I would not pursue a guy who does not make any effort, and going after a guy usually turns him off.

[RandomBritishGuy94]

@fleur-de-lys Not really. I've never known anyone who was asked out by a women and was "turned off".

I do understand the idea that you don't want a man who won't even ask you out but the days where that is the case are gone. I'll ask a women I'm interested in, sure, but the chances I'll ask someone giving me signals is next to nothing. Why? I think the same way you do. If you can't be honest with me and instead feel your "signals" should be enough then I'm not interested in playing this game.

[FakeName123]

@fleur-de-lys

"Yes, both people need to work at a relationship and do their part, but when it comes to initiating it, girls should show some interest, especially if you have shown it and given her all the signals. Why bother if a girl cannot even make a move and have some initiative?"

Can easily be turned around and is a non-argument.

[ChocoLada]

Meh, I always choose a guy, and I'm not afraid to initiate, I just grab him, and take him ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOfhlYIRCXM

[justbanANNAz]

okay?

[moviedude714]

You've approached guys before?

[HikerDude]

What you don't understand is that we as men like to know that we're her choice, too. Younger women tend to be so focused on what they want that they often overlook this very crucial fact. I don't want to go chasing some woman around trying to convince her to like me. That feels desperate and disrespectful to myself.

[justbanANNAz]

i like how u think i completely ignored a man's point of view, just because i didn't talk about it. if i did, id be writing forever, so ur response is expected before i press submit.

[HikerDude]

Hey, I'm allowed to post my thoughts here just the same. This is a discussion forum, not a one-way lecture in which you educate all of us on how the world works.

[justbanANNAz]

if i considered it a one way lecture i could have easily allowed no opinions... u know this right? so don't begin making assumptions about my intentions lol.

[HikerDude]

Ok, then accept what I'm writing as a counterpoint to what you wrote. As I intoned, attraction is a two-way street. It's fine that women like yourself want to maintain traditional roles in dating. Just remember that it's not all about what women want.

[justbanANNAz]

thank you for your input.