Women As Initiators: Why Courtship Roles Should Change

[Mesonfielde]

*this myTake is heavily based on this myTake by justbanANNAz, just so you know the initial context.

No, I'm not a traditional guy. No, I'm not stuck in the 50's.

I don't believe in gender roles and their benefits, and that one should confine themselves to the way society expects an individual to perform.

Society has progressed. Society has opened THEIR mind to include the possibility of THEIR story too, and I as a male am thankful to now have the opportunities I do, as opposed to the past.

Changing obligations, expectations, accepted behavior - seeing that males can have emotions too rather than being a stoic and unemotional. It's all changing, and will continue to. Changes like these needed to be made to produce a society that recognizes everyone.

But what about love? ... Well, I don't believe in roles in courtship [as in, a serious relationship], and I don't think they shouldn't change at all. (sorry about the double negative there)

I believe in women as the initiators -

the instigators.

Now if you are a human who is not tired of tradition

then these coming thoughts may disturb you,

but otherwise I'll save you some time and bid you adieu.

Let us start with the question

of `why must I, as a woman, make the first move?

Why is this not the role of the man...

and what exactly does this prove?`

The answer appears when he hears these 3 words:

"I. Choose. YOU."

I

Interpret this 'I' as confidence. Yup, y'all know how sexy it is! You... as a woman who is sure of herself, and sure of the decision that she is making. This is the decision that comes from YOUR heart, after all your years of experience, or even lack thereof. Can you see how different it is to "he chose me?"

Think to yourself... "Who is 'he'? He realistically, could choose me, yet what foundation lies behind his choice that differentiates me from somebody else? Does he only want me for my body, or does he truly love me as a person, for me, for who I am?"

Choose

This is important. It's the central argument of the myTake. Most [not all] women have a huge issue with commitment, or envisioning a LONG future with one man anyway. A lot of men [again, not all] on the other hand, envision that bond quite easily (if she's likeable, compatible, and attractive as well - but these standards applies for pretty much anyone). Therefore, it holds, in my eyes, more value for a woman to essentially abandon her instincts and CHOOSE a man to call her partner. Linking back to the biological perspective, very few species of animals and birds mate with one partner for life.

Humans however choose to commit to one partner. But why is it that the human mind has to complicate 'mating' so much that it's now become a battle of 'who should be doing what'? Shouldn't we just do what benefits both of us, and what makes us both happy?

YOU

You decided that it was no one else but Him.

Him.

Not that other guy whom you once had a crush on,

not the hottest guy on campus,

not the popular one that every girl was trying to get with,

not the one you only wanted to fuck for a night or two,

not the 'getting-laid-with-a-different-guy- every- night' life,

not the 'i'm- too-shy- to-even- go-near-him' life,

not the 'i'm-scared-he'll-reject-me' life,

not the 'i'll-be-popular-if-i-get-him' life,

... but the 'I Just Want To Be With Him' life.

I can tell you girls now, that in the mind of a man, for you to choose us amid everything else- to be chosen.. singled out as 'the one' or even 'potentially the one', is one of the most amazing feelings in the world. I hate that I can't adequately type it out in description to make you understand, so here's a relevant picture instead.

It takes a strong woman to make an effort for a man - to kiss him and say 'I choose you'... because that's not all that's happening.

You're saying so much more.

(I can barely wait to see the storm that's on the horizon... ain't that right, banANNAz?)

[DooMguy]

"I can barely wait to see the storm that's on the horizon... ain't that right, banANNAz?"

@justbanANNAz he's calling you out, 1 V 1 M8, MLG. Lets see who gets rekt

img.pandawhale.com/...o-rekt-1v1-me-scrub-DZ3z.gif
i2.kym-cdn.com/.../...-gif-thumbs-up-imgu-L3yP.gif
img.pandawhale.com/...o-heavy-weapons-guy-oPac.gif

*shots fired*

"Meh, I always choose a guy, and I'm not afraid to initiate, I just grab him, and take him"

@ChocoLada will back you up meson

cf.girlsaskguys.com/.../...5-8c96-3084de77c375.gif

[ChocoLada]

Backup ready ;)

dncache-mauganscorp.netdna-ssl.com/.../...nail.jpg

[DooMguy]

meson, it looks like things just got serious

i1.kym-cdn.com/.../853.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sps13ynHSJQ
i1.kym-cdn.com/.../853.gif

@ChocoLada Are you MLG 3l1t3 ?

[Mesonfielde]

@DooMguy I actually wanted to mention her there in the take but the system took it apart :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6oGoJLKv-0

serious business indeed

[DooMguy]

darude dankstorm, fight the system man, fight the power

67.media.tumblr.com/.../...ypJCKe1szim6vo1_250.gif

(I hope when she finally gets here it'll be worth the wait)

[Mesonfielde]

She got here and it was kind of a let down

[ChocoLada]

No, who is MLG 3l1t3?

[DooMguy]

Awww. . . @justbanANNA what happened, didn't you want to rumble? most anti-climatic moment ever. I have to put the Doritos and mountain dew away now. MLG moment over

@ChocoLada git gud M9. "MLG 3l1t3" = major league gaming elite or in other words a pro-gamer

[ChocoLada]

No, I'm just an amateur gamer :)
@justbanANNA blocked you too? LOL, I don't understand how she can be so stuck up :P

[Mesonfielde]

@ChocoLada I think you guys are just missing the "z" at the end of her name

[DooMguy]

@justbanANNAz yeah I just pasted that wrong, seriously banana did you see that? "how she can be so stuck up" *shots fired*

@ChocoLada you'll make it to MLG one day, if you have right fuel

[ChocoLada]

Right, but I can't tag her anyway, because @justbanANNAz blocked me for no valid reason.

[ChocoLada]

I hope so :D

[Mesonfielde]

@ChocoLada I never really understood why some people do that.

[ChocoLada]

Me neither.

[xHoneyxBeex]

If a person (male or female) is interested in someone else, they should make the first move. There's nothing wrong with either gender being the first to initiate.

I am a fairly traditional person but I still think that if someone likes another person, they should make their interest known. Sitting around and waiting for the person you like to make the first move could result in missing out on the relationship completely.

[hellionthesage]

Just because you do things a certain way, that is to say in a way they have traditionally been done does not make you backwards, inversely doing things differently does not make you "progressive". It has been illegal to murder for thousands of years, would you proclaim it progressive to defy this and to begin killing others? No. So clearly being progressive is more then simply doing things that are against sociatel expectations. It is being able to move beyond old ideas to new ones that are beneficial to the individual and to society however that requires a deep understanding of the subject matter and grasp at both how it works and why it works. What your staying ignores base biology and the reasons why we have these roles to begin with. A woman takes a greater risk in reproduction then the man by a large margin this is why we have the system in place that we do. It is the man's role to provide because reproduction is physically limiting to a woman and thus hinders her ability to acquire resources. The man approaching her is showing that he has interest, him continuously doing so shows a level of investment that suggests he is not simply going to abandon her after sex leaving her with the massive burden of pregnancy and child reading which will impact her for years. That isn't to say a woman can't ask a man out but rather the reason why expecting this to be the norm for quite honestly no real reason is absurd, it essentially pretends that men and woman are the same despite the fact that even a cursory knowledge of the genders will show you that we are quite different. A square peg will not fit into a round hole no matter how much you may want it to. Can we have some leeway with how we interact, sure but then we generally have had that from the start. Men have always been allowed to express emotion, why do you think through out all of history ports have been male? The notion that men where never allowed to show emotion is a misnomer, it completely ignored the evidence that suggests other wide while taking stoicism out of context. You had to be stoic because lives depended on you once out of those situations you where free to express your feelings, usually using your wife as emotional support (hence woman's nurturing qualities being emphasized historicly so as to support the men who in turn supported them). This is why having a solid grasp on the subject is vital, if you do not account for everything your going to cause more problems then what you solved.

[Mesonfielde]

>> A woman takes a greater risk in reproduction then the man by a large margin

That's exactly why it makes more sense for them to jump on the opportunity to fetch a guy they actually find attractive instead of just settling for one who was clingy enough that she felt bad to say "no"

>> The man approaching her is showing that he has interest, him continuously doing so shows a level of investment that suggests he is not simply going to abandon her after sex

You might be saying that, but I'm pretty sure you realize that doesn't actually work. Single mothers, anyone?

>> the reason why expecting this to be the norm for quite honestly no real reason

The reason is that women have the authority to choose their own partners instead of just passively waiting in the corner.

>> even a cursory knowledge of the genders

I don't believe in stereotypes. I do believe ovaries and testicles are different, but that's that for the mass generalizations.

[Mesonfielde]

>> out of those situations you where free to express your feelings

But then why do people consider being rigid and stoic a "masculine trait"?

>> if you do not account for everything

This is the very beginning of a romantic relation. The complications arise only later. This is just to show both sexes can create a beginning if they so desire; that is their agency.

[hellionthesage]

No because by her going after him he gains greater influence, he knows she wants him and thus is more callable of manipulating her. It's like poker you don't want to show your hand otherwise you will not be on equal terms. The guy approaches because he has less to lose so him approaching isn't really tipping the scale in her favor as much as the inverse would.
That's why historicly women didn't give up sex so readily, now with the government taking over the role of father (forced child support programs to aid single mothers etc) it no longer places the burden on her but men and society.
Women do choose their own partners, what they do is wait and see who has the confidence to approach, confidence being an indicator of assertiveness etc.
What's a stereotype? The structural difference in genitals, bone structure (wider hips inward facing thighs for women, more pronounced bone structure in the face (to reduce damage from blunt impact) and denser bones in men

[hellionthesage]

The skin differences like different amounts of collagen (men have 25% more collagen then women making them literally thicker skinned, women lose collagen at a rate of 2% each year after thirty men lose it at a rate of 1% a year after thiry) as well as men having fewer pain receptors (hence males having a highest threshold for pain), differences in biochemical make up (females having the primary sex hormones of estrogen and progesterone (which interferes with calcium absorption which causes the tendenciefor women to develop osteoporosis) for men it's testosterone (which preliminary studies show suppresses the immune system leading to the sterotypical "manflu") and androgen (which results in males being more prone to achne and having it last longer (androgens are responsible for sebum production (oil)) as well as make patterned baldness) or the neurological differences (men have about 8% to 10% larger brains and more gray matter while women have significantly more white matter as well as

[hellionthesage]

Differences in brain structure and activity) psycological differences (women tend to self mutilate more then men men tend to be outwardly destructive) differences in identity (as has been proven in many experiments like the (tragic) human experiment done in david rehmier) to genetics (as you know the differences between male and female genetics is the difference between a human and chimpanzee (in the size of the genetic variation not in the genes themselves obviously) so as I said it's not sterotype it's scientific fact backed by empirical evidence and multiple replication studies.

[hellionthesage]

Why do people believe men could vote and women couldn't? Confirmation bias, women where free to express emotion whenever they wanted men where not the reason being as I stated previously is because lives where at stake, a man was not allowed to give into his fear (which is different then not being allowed to express it) because lives depended on him. Imagine if a soldier or police officer of a fireman would act emotionally? They would not be able to do there jobs, however afterwards there would be no such issue. Men tended to open up more to women then men because males are competitive by nature and being in a constant state of competition most where not comfortable exposing their insecurities to another man.
But it is the removal of a system with no consideration to the impact it may have, the social and biological drives as well as why things are balanced in such a way. It's the presumption that it is wrong and inefficient because you (empirical you) don't like it.

[Bandit74]

Lol, Nice job Meson...

However, I actually do believe it's better when guys are expected to approach. Well better for men anyways. If girls started to approach they would be choosing who to approach primarily based on looks and social standing since that's essentially all you can ascertain about a person you don't know. Additionally, if you did get approached you would likely be approached by women who don't interest you and would be tasked with the burden of rejecting them and crushing their spirits.

When guys are expected to approach you get to decide who you are investing time in pursuing. You don't have to waist time interacting and rejecting the women who you aren't interested in. You are not limited to choosing from the people who have approached you first. Women who don't approach currently can only choose from the group of men who chose to approach them first. This means there is less competition for you since you only have to go up against the men who have actually approached her. Finally if you aren't above average in terms of looks or social standing, being the instigator allows you to make up for what you lack in those categories with wit and charm. However if women approached first you would likely be ignored since your outer qualities (looks/social standing) wouldn't warrant her approaching you and giving you a chance.

[lumos]

I've read both takes and I disagree with both of them.
No gender should have the "burden" of courtship solely placed on them. If you like someone, ask them out. OR wait around for something that might never happen. But then you only have yourself to blame for not making a move.
The burden should be placed on both people. Both people should feel the need to make a move.

[Keepcalm89]

I feel that what you posted and the OP mytake here is bit more realistic and that's what people do now days. JustbanANNAz mytake seem like it just fits for a certain group of people that might be more financially situated and ate more privileged in life. And that's not all of us. I think what fits us I say "us" (because not all of us are that financially situated or have a good bank account...) would be to support us both with money and approach each other... Men approach or start the courtship or the women.. either way.. and putting the responsibility on the guy is a bit outdated in my opinion.. the guy will ask to marry her.. I agree... she'll get his last name.. that I agree wholeheartedly but the rest has changed a bit since olden times..

[aficionado]

This is a great myTake.

But the main reason why women don't initiate, is that they don't HAVE to. We men are making it so easy for them by asking them out left and right. So they can afford to sit back, wait for the men to approach, and take their pick of the litter! :P

[stillagoodgirl]

I don't mind initiating contact (mostly) like talking first or suggestion of contact outside of where we usually see each other (school or randomly running into each other). But after a while if he's not initiating contact back I'll assume he's not interested. It kinda feels like chasing a one sided situation and I don't like that.

I prefer the guy to lead. The most I'll do is call, text and be flirty but I probably will never ask for a first date. I'll hint or make suggestions but I don't know if that counts

[Mesonfielde]

The initial context is needed to truly appreciate this myTake. It was written to counter @JustbanANNAz 's myTake, which was pretty much exactly the same thing, except "he" was "she" and vice versa. Of course, the point was that males like to be appreciated too, if they like you back then they're just as happy if you ask them out.

[stillagoodgirl]

Ehhhh that's the thing. Is he just flattered and felt pity for me or did he like me so much he was too sacred of rejection?
If it's the latter I don't mind initiating because I understand but the former, well then I'd rather be rejected than lead on

[Jehovahkiin]

Great take. I loved the amount of thought you put into discussing the meaning behind each word. Also, Steins;Gate. xD

Although I would have to add that the reason why many of us don’t initiate is because society dictates it to be the case. Guys typically ask girls out whom they are interested in, so when a guy don’t seem to be asking us out, we generally feel that he isn’t interested and shouldn’t even bother.

[Mesonfielde]

>> I loved the amount of thought you put into discussing the meaning behind each word.

I have to admit, this is a rewrite of another take to mean its exact opposite (and also adding Steins;Gate :P ), so the whole "I", "choose", "you" explanation credit goes to the original author (linked at the top of the take).

I did rewrite parts of it but *that* particular idea goes to them!

>> when a guy don’t seem to be asking us out

Well yes and no, if they seek your attention, the possibility of them being somewhat interested tends to be there. Whether they find you attractive or not isn't an obvious thing, though! Unless they bluntly stare at your face from time to time, although that's more common when you don't actually see it. :p

[Keepcalm89]

But women have to let us guys know in some way if you desire to be asked out right.. I don't want to go up to a girl I may be interested or attracted to and she's not feeling me.. so I got to know just to avoid unwanted asking out by my part.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

Been asked out a lot, i think both sexes should, if they feel, be able to ask out. It isn't difficult, you simply utter a few words and then get a yes or no response in some context.
But i do think women still hang on the notion of old world values like having the man initiate first and all that bullshit, which needs to be changed. If a woman sees a man she really likes and does not approach because she feels as though he should approach its a missed opportunity. In other words that is the problem, i don't think either sex should be required to initiate, i think instead it comes down to the individual.

[Azgeda]

Oh look what time it is.
https://m.memegen.com/fguox1.jpg

[justbanANNAz]

at least come up with ur own format lol. i didn't read it tbh. i just found it cute

[93stepsawayfromhome]

Would that be as effective, though? Not if you ask me.

[justbanANNAz]

@93stepsawayfromhome probably, since it would be a proper argument rather than copy pasting my own lol, which doesn't make as much sense.
if you ask me, men who dont initiate dont have the balls to do it. if that offends u I'm not sorry lol. i dont need everyone to agree with me on everything.

[93stepsawayfromhome]

Sure, that's your opinion. I disagree, but it doesn't offend me. But in the take, they simply turned your argument around and it makes just as much sense, which says a lot more about your argument than a simple "I disagree because blah blah" response would.

[justbanANNAz]

@93stepsawayfromhome that is your opinion and I'm cool with that :)

[93stepsawayfromhome]

Well, okay.

[Mesonfielde]

I actually kept the format exactly to show just how well your take can be applied to men, too. Even the new images are in the exact same spot.

I did change some things here and there beyond negations and pronouns to retain sense, mostly the "choose" section and the first paragraph (can't say times changed and men are finally getting educated, right?) But some of it just matched too well for the male side too, so I saw no reason to change it! :)

Next time I might ask for permission, although the inspiration was just too strong. You should at least glance through it, you might be surprised.

[Mesonfielde]

Sidenote,
>> men who dont initiate dont have the balls to do it

I knew I should have kept the disclaimer saying "I'm not saying men shouldn't initiate", it was part of the original but felt it was superfluous - apparently it wasn't :p

[justbanANNAz]

Lol, im glad i inspired u that much. Yeah permission would be nice, but hey enjoy your little comeback.🍷

[Mesonfielde]

Technically the section I changed most was the

>>> Think to yourself... "Who is 'he'?

I kinda rewrote most of that, considering I don't believe women are "inherently more emotional", and males are just as capable of emotion and joy of being chosen by a girl they like: which is pretty much the central message of *this* myTake.

I changed the education and stuff to overcoming the expectations of stoicism towards males, I changed "his and her story" to "their and their story" (gender neutral stance), I changed the end of the "I" section, in the choose section I ripped out the bird dance performance stuff, and otherwise replaced every "man" with "woman", every "he" with "she", and pretty much added negation to the original wordings.

The only thing I'm iffy about in hindsight is that I kept that "women struggle with commitment", I should have made that gender neutral. Lots of people cheat, regardless of gender, after all.

[justbanANNAz]

Look man, i did end up reading it, and i know which bits u changed, yet u cannot deny that you initially did copy paste my work without permission, and that is pretty low. Im totally fine with a counter argument, but to do it like that... I dunno i mean some people seem to be impressed by it, but if you wouldn't mind if someone did that to u then cool. I on the other hand, found it pretty uncharacteristic for someone intelligent like urself, even if u dont like me and want to overtly display that.

It's pointless continuing to talk about it though as there's nothing more to say. The more u justify u doing this, the more i won't make an attempt to understand u.

[carrotbody]

He did copy your format, that was the point. I think you're missing the point entirely.

By the way, weren't you also one of those people who wants the guy to pay for the first date? Must be nice claiming "I'm traditional!" because it suits you.

God knows you won't give up your voting rights though, because you're not actually traditional. You just pick and choose the privileges you want.

[OrdinaryGentleman]

You nor asker aren't getting paid, and literally nothing is taking a toll on him copying from you. Just take it as a compliment and move on. Arguing on gag is pointless.

[fleur-de-lys]

@carrotbody For me, it has nothing to do with paying for a date. I can just have coffee or take a walk. It has everything to do with showing some interest after I have given him signals. If he does not bother, he is not worth my time and/or devotion.

[Kirah]

Very nice take, good read. I agree.

For what it's worth, I'm often the initiator as well. I feel comfortable doing that. No reason to wait around, right?

I think it's very hypocritical that some women want equality, but still want the guy to initiate. It's 2016, and I firmly believe that if we want equality, we need to drop these outdated standards.

Also, I loved the Steins Gate references. ;)

[ChocoLada]

I agree with this myTake, being strong is not easy, but some of us have the courage to do it ;)

[anonman32]

i agree with this take, i dont think men should take over the passive roles of dating that girls had or were supposed to have but i think that we should both be initiating because then you have the most success chances.

[Shorty1991]

I agree with Lumos and honey bee, its very one sided putting it down to gender roles. Whoever has the crush should definitely make the first move. Its nonsensical to sit back and wait on your crush taking you by the hand.

[Hunterb]

tried to take srs but couldn't with all the hentai haha

[Mesonfielde]

That's no hentai

[LadyTerror]

I'm mostly here because Steins;Gate

Good take though!

[flintlockwood]

men are pussies, that is why you will be alone and why i will get all your women.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Thanks mes, your version is the good one. 👍🏻

[Harpesian]

'Eyyyyy, Steins;Gate!!!

[Mesonfielde]

Kurisu best girl

orig15.deviantart.net/.../...uronofate-d41cabc.png

[Harpesian]

Best show of all time~

[Harpesian]

Although, hang on; does this really help in proving your point when no matter how you look at it, Okarin pretty much definitely makes the first move?

[Mesonfielde]

She's the one who pulls him down and kisses him though, that's what was constantly going through my mind while (re) writing the take :P

[Harpesian]

Lol XD

[Harpesian]

B-but it's not like she did it because she wanted to or anything!!!

[Mesonfielde]

Baaaka

[Shawn58]

Steinsgate I love that anime such a good anime.

[Mysterio421]

What's the name of the anime?

[Shawn58]

@Mysterio421 it's called steinsgate it's about Time travel its really good dude like no lie.

[Thisperson98]

I like this take.