Pick up artists - Truths/Myths

[doireallyneedone]

So I wrote a take on Dating as an Asian male. A lot of the comments that arose from that were related to Pick up Artists (PUAs) so I thought I'll do a take on that.

First off I don't consider myself a 'pick up artist' or PUA by any means even though I've read a lot of their stuff, studied their materials and even used their materials. PUA is big business, do a google/youtube search and 1000s of videos will pop-up. I first read and applied their materials about 6-7 years ago. I'm not really in the 'scene' so to speak, but of course I have done what most young guys my age do - go out and try to pick up girls with LOTS of trial and error as well as following the aforementioned techniques. Now I've dated my share of girls (~50+), 'picked-up' and slept with many as well. I've also been in long term relationships too (currently in one now). So I feel I have reasonable ancidotal evidence/experience to write this take.

Since the explosion of PUA in the last 5 or so years, they've been getting a lot of hate. Some of it is due to a lack of understanding of what PUA really is (at least in my opinion).

So here is my personal and honest opinion on 'pick-up'. The good and the bad. Again these are my opinions. They will offend some people as opinions always do.

What is PUA?

- PUA is a big business now. It's money driven and targetted towards a growing number of lonely and sexually frustrated men. A lot of the marketting over-sells what PUA really is or is capable of. And unfortunately these men are none the wiser. They become disappointed with the results and will eventually conclude: 'PUA is rubbish because it's all about looks/money/height/race!'

- Despite its name. When it comes down to it, PUA is really just learning to how present yourself in an attractive way to women. It's not really a 'manipulative tool' that people make it out to be. Women are not idiots, they know what is really going on when you approach them asking them for their opinion on 'who lies more'. By suggesting that PUAs able to manipulate women into bed with basic conversational skills, is like implying that women are stupid enough to fall for these 'tricks'.

- Most PUAs I've met are nice genuine people.

- Some PUAs are ego driven douchebags. Some of them are/were 'loser/nerds' in school without ever having success with women. When they do experience some success their heads explode and egos go through the roof. But I guess you'd find these types of people in all different areas/hobbies in life.

- A minority of PUAs do have some sort of vendetta/hatred towards women. They feel that women have mistreated them their entire life and now that they can use/abuse the women they do get. Again, this type of men are in all areas of life.

Does PUA really work?

- Yes.. and no. Most of us (99%) will be limited when in comes to dating in some way - whether this is physical appearance, wealth etc. PUA will not change that.

- PUA will not be effective if the operator (guy) has poor social skills, physically very unattractive, any major disability and doesn't have basic things in life down pat (has a job, some where to live etc). Unforunately these are draw backs that aren't really compensated for just by 'knowing what to say'.

- PUA is NOT magic. It will not allow the average guy to start pulling 10/10 models. PUA is learning how to present yourself in the best way so that you give yourself the best chance. So if you are a 5/10 guy, you will now succesfully and with consistency pull the 5-6/10 girl.

- PUA is a skill. Like any other skill it takes time to learn and get good at it. Some are naturally good at it, others will take longer to achieve the same level of competency.

- Like any skill, without consistent practice one will not get good at PUA and therefore won't work.

PUA is not about long term relationships:

- Yes and no again.

- No, it isn't about long term relationships: Because its engineered around approaching lots and lots of women. To an average lay person this might feel like the complete opposite of finding that one partner or special someone. Also a lot of PUAs will have a particular reputation about them.

- Yes it is about long term relationships: because how does a long term relationship begin? You see an attractive girl. You approach the girl. You say Hi. You capture her attention, you get into an interesting/good conversation. You get her contact details. You text. You set-up a date. Everything up until this point is what PUA emphasises and getting to the date is arguably the most difficult part for most men. Yes, the goal of PUA is sex, but to get there is where 95% of the work is done. The same work that needs to be done if you were to pursue a long term relationship. Therefore, getting good at PUA does help you find and more importantly ACTUALLY GET that special someone.

Got questions?

Ask me below, I'll do my best to answer them.

[dudegrt09]

You are right... PUA had become a business these days and I admit that I have read a lot of stuff regarding this. I have reached a conclusion that many (or dare I say most) of the PUAs are bullshit and I have never been sure which one to actually follow or trust. Then they come up with all kinds of products like meeting women online, club dating, how to approach women etc. When I think retrospectively I was probably doing much better with women before getting into PUA. Only one book that I really found helpful was Mark Redman's Conquer Your Campus, which dealt with college specific game. He genuinely stressed in the book that instead of learning lines and tricks we should be focussing on personality aspects like being dominant, being fun, easygoing and being a leader. But you are right, all of us who read PUA will be limited by one thing or another. Do you suggest any material or product which actually is genuine, when it comes to dating instead of PUA?

[doireallyneedone]

I think the book you've read is quite accurate. Rather than focussing on specific lines and openers, focus on developing yourself as a person. Try to be open, sociable, fun and make it a point to meet new people. Your pick-up skills will naturally improve. Personally, I found PUA helpful for learning the theory behind what women find attractive (as from my experience, this is mostly accurate). The actual techniques they teach can be hit or miss. I may have one or two lines that I've acquire through PUA to help me in difficult situations or situations where I run out of things to say, but generally I've learn't to improve with women by focusing on the core attributes that are attractive rather than specific techniques.

In terms of actual material instead of PUA. You can try a book called 'Way of the superior man'. It doesn't teach any techniques, but rather discusses theory on the way women think - and in my opinion its accurate. And if anything else, its an interesting read.

[dudegrt09]

Yeah that is a David Deida book. I've read it, but found it to be too complicated and spiritual. Went way over my head.

[dudegrt09]

Have you read this Tao of Badass Book by Joshua Pellicer... do you think there is some genuine good advice there.

[doireallyneedone]

No I haven't read that book. I think you are on the right track though. Just go out and socialise a lot, best way to learn is through practice.

[Vinvei]

I guess PUAs are hated on because most of the media they ever get is negative.

[Longblackveil]

i dont really know what PUA techniques are, but if they are just conversation starters basically, and encouraging men to approach, i think thats great!

There are way too many men who think things are supposed to just fall into their lap, or they won't even approach for fear of rejection. If i had to put together a "PUA" program, i would just give the guy some conversation starters, and tell him to use them on every girl he's attracted to. Nothing cauvinistic about that at all.

But like i said, i dont know enough about real PUA techniques to comment on them

[doireallyneedone]

What you've said pretty much sums up the basic principles PUA (in my opinion at least)!

[Kinstrome]

I agree that much of the distaste for PUAs is misunderstanding. Just learning the skills of a PUA does not denote an interest in casual sex, even if it is a skill often associated with that. People learn skills like salesmanship and bartering just for the sake a skill, too. I read some of Neil Strauss' work just to learn how to meet people.

I also agree that pickup art is not a magic solution for everybody, but that that does not mean it's valueless.

[AdamThomas]

The PUA community is like the blind leading the blind. Many of the coaches don't get laid that often, and when they do it's because of the sheer number of women they approach e. g. Yad from daygame. com has mentioned that he would approach women on Oxford Street in London for 12 hours a day. A man who is actually good with women doesn't need to go to that extreme.

[doireallyneedone]

That's because a certain percentage of what makes you good with women or not cannot be influenced by 'game'. Things such as facial features, physical appearance, grooming etc. Some men will always have more advantage than others and yes those men do not need 'game'. Those who are less unfortunate in those areas will need to compensate with 'game'.

The comparison is like Messi vs Ronaldo (this is controversial example), while both are talented, a lot of people say Messi is pure talent while Ronaldo is talent plus hard work. But at the end of the day they are both world-class footballers. Whether a person is naturally good with girls or 'acquired' through practice, the end result is the about the same.

[AdamThomas]

The thing is a lot. of what they teach is useless, counter-productive and some is just plain weird. I was in the PUA community for years in London and I know people who've been out with top guys like Mystery, who've all said how shockingly bad they are, yet still they somehow manage to convince socially awkward men that they're getting laid with models every weekend. There are some guys who teach good stuff but they tend to move away from PUA and become almost anti-PUA once they see it for what it is.

[doireallyneedone]

Oh yeah definitely. Too many people have incorrect expectations of PUA and like I mentioned, PUA is NOT magic. All it is, is how to present yourself in the best way to a woman. It'll boost your chances with a girl within your league, but you still won't be getting 10/10 models. If anyone says otherwise, then they are bullshitting you. At the end of the day, as with just about anyone (99% of people) they are still just playing a numbers game. There is no technique or strategy that will guarantee you success with a woman.

[dudegrt09]

@AdamThomas dude you couldn't be more right. Even I've found this PUA thing to be quite counter-productive. Most of the PUAs are bullshit.

[doireallyneedone]

And yeah, personally I disagree with some of their techniques, hence I don't really consider myself a pickup artist. A lot of what I do now was arrived through trial and error on my own as well as studying their materials. Having said that, A LOT of what they teach is accurate though in my opinion, especially the theory side of things of what a woman is attracted to and also the basic principles of their techniques I think is accurate.

Interestingly, the game and 'Mystery's Method' is very old now and as with every 'art', its constantly evolving. I'm pretty sure the exact techniques Mystery devised 10-20 years ago aren't so effective today. Personally, I've found the newer techniques taught today are better and more applicable to the average guy. I mean not every guy wants to 'peacock' and wear black nail polish as Mystery did.

[Drast]

I don't see why the approaching/dating lots of women part is looked down upon. I'm not going to settle down until I've experience women to the fullest extent I can. That's not immoral, its simply gaining life experience.

[doireallyneedone]

I understand why many women and men look down upon it, but in reality 'picking up' women is really just starting conversations with strangers of the opposite sex and learning to become more comfortable doing so.

A lot of women don't understand that in many ways it is necessary for men to be proactive and approach/talk to women. Women get be passive and get approached. Every time they get approached they are practicising their social skills talking to strangers of the opposite sex, and so throughout a woman's lifetime, 'practising' this skill is never an issue because men make the move. On the other hand if a man is passive, he will not develop these skills necessary to talk to women, until one day in his 20s when he finally does, he will get shot down because he was too nervous, too needy, not confident enough etc (basically didn't represent himself correctly) and also because there is a massive imbalance in experience between the 2 parties.

[lovethelife]

PUA is not only about sex, it's about approaching, meeting new people etc..

[doireallyneedone]

Agreed!

[WEIXIN]

if you're approaching hundreds of females and not having sex with any of them, then you're doing something wrong. this is what i have observed with pua

[thesweetness]

about your point where you talk about guys who see women as lower then them, because they've been getting mistreated by women their whole lives for whatever reason, and now that they can get girls they use women for sex to get back at them... do you think these men are understable in their attitude and treatment of women because of the way women have treated them throughout their lives?

[doireallyneedone]

Definitely understandable but doesn't make it right. Kind of like how adults who've been sexually abused during childhood are at a higher rate of committing sexual abuse later in life. I can understand how having a rough childhood predisposes someone to committing that crime, but its still a crime.

[thesweetness]

it's not the same thing. sexual abuse is something you just don't do, but it's fairly common for women to mistreat guys who are unattractive, nerdy, shy etc. people know sexual abuse is wrong and just because it happened to you doesn't mean you can/should do it to someone else. but if a guy has been mistreated by a lot of women it's easy to assume the majority of women are this way, so he starts using women for sex because he feels that these women would also have mistreated him if they knew him when he was still in his awkward phase.

[doireallyneedone]

Using women for sex is not mistreating them. I use women for sex, and I know for a fact, they use me for sex too. Women love sex, just as much as men love sex. The reason that I'm not 'mistreating them' is because I'm still respectful towards them and I'm honest about what I want.

Of course that was an extreme example, but the principle is the same. Just because a person had been mistreated before doesn't give him the right to mistreat another person back based on that assumption that the 'majority of women are this way'. Another example would be a woman cheating on her new boyfriend out of spite because she was cheated on in a previous relationship and assumes all men are cheaters/lairs, doesn't make it right does it?

[thesweetness]

if using a woman for sex is not mistreating them, then what do you mean by "use/abuse the women they do get"? are you refering to physical abuse?

[doireallyneedone]

Basically not being honest about their intentions. E. g. Giving a woman the idea that he wants to date her but only does so with the intention of getting sex asap, and then gets rid of her after having sex or when the sex becomes stale, or when he finds someone better.

[thesweetness]

in other words, using them for sex?

[doireallyneedone]

No. One is being honest about your intentions, the other is being dishonest with the purpose of pursuing sex. Its important to understand that men and women face different challenges in dating. For men the challenge (and difficulty) pertains to getting the date, phone number or getting sex. For women, sex is easy. The challenge is finding a guy who she is attracted to who will commit to her. Women control sex, men control commitment (once the woman is attracted to him). If a man is honest about his intentions then a woman can indulge in the pleasures of sex knowing that it is purely a sexual relationship and not commit herself emotionally.

[doireallyneedone]

The challenge for a guy is getting the girl in bed. The girl can be a tease, hang out with the guy, get free meals and then not sleep with him. The guy will feel used. As opposed to, the girl being upfront and saying: I will hang out with you but I'm not interested in sleeping with you. If the guy still chose to hang out with her, he would not feel used.

The challenge for a girl is commitment. She falls in love with a guy, the guy seems interested in more than just sex, they can have sex, then the guy gets up and walks away when he is bored or finds someone better. She feels used. As opposed to the guy saying "I'm attracted to you, but I'm not looking for a long term relationship right now". Now she knows what to expect.

The dilemmas in dating is different for the two sexes. Hence its easy for us to misunderstand them and for them to misunderstand us.

[thesweetness]

i understood what you meant, no need to elaborate. but what you said is what i mean by using women for sex - being dishonest in your intentions and making them believe you are looking for a relationship, especially with women who are not just looking for a hook up and want something serious. then once you've slept with them, move on to the next girl. do you think guys who have always been mistreated by women are justified in doing this once they can get girls?

[doireallyneedone]

Personally, I don't think it is justified. It's not that difficult to just be honest/upfront about your intentions and you can potentially save yourself a lot of trouble and the other person a lot of emotional heartache.

I've been overlooked by women in the past for being a 'nerd' or whatever the reason is. I also know men who've overlooked women with great personalities for being too fat, too short, too ugly. It goes both ways. Still, I don't feel the need to treat women poorly.

[thesweetness]

once again, a lot of women aren't just looking for a hookup, and if you are honest about your intentions, you won't get to have sex with them. i know women like sex but a lot of them wouldn't have sex with a guy unless they've been going out for a while and she has developed real feelings for him, and thinks he feels the same. these women would make the best targets for such a guy.

[tenchu11]

They play the numbers game and prey on the weak an insecure. I read a book about when I was younger think meal Strauss said how he got into the community and done of the masters were lonely losers who had no success in life but approaching insecure woman.

[WestcoastBratt]

You want to know what PUA stands for! Pick Up Asshole! I agree that PUA is a huge business now and it has gotten so big that women know about and know a lot of techniques and magic little lines, they know kino tricks and stuff like that. Basically PUA isn't fresh and original anymore because all they have don't is invented a whole bunch of damn copycats!

[Consultant]

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I think lots of dudes overcomplicate this.

[doireallyneedone]

You are right, for an average person with normal social skills this is all you have to do. Unfortunately there's heaps of guys who can't even do this, because they are too shy or have weird mannerisms that even if they walk up and say hi they will get turned down. I think for guys who aren't well developed socially, PUA can be a useful tool.

[ilovemse]

in short, this is the thing: a dude is the product he is trying to sell, and atractive women are the wanted customers. pua are some marketing strategies to try to have more success selling the product.

[Jersey1]

It is hilarious to me that women on this site say that the guy had confidence because he walked right up to me and talked to me and asked m out... Straight out of the Pick Up Artist handbook, lol. Women should studybPUA in order to spot these guys.

These guys actually lack confidence which is why they look for a cheap trick.

[HappyDominant17]

or just know how to get laid?

[Jersey1]

I never needed such a thing and I look down on it, but, that attitude may be why I never needed it.

[doireallyneedone]

It's true that most guys don't need it. Guys were getting girls since the dawn of time and now we need a pick up manual? Nah.

But having said that, this would still work if the girl knew what was going on. Its essentially triggering attraction switches in girls. PUA is not really a bag of tricks, its just giving guys without confidence/awkward something to say when they approach girls so they aren't lost in conversation. Its like if a girl read a manual on how to do her hair better and apply make up better, and even if we knew she's been reading a manual, we would still be attracted to her if the make up and hair made her more attractive.

[Words_and_Wisdom]

Was about to make this take actually lol. Awesome read. There's this unfair signed with pick up artists. This stuff should be taught in high school.

[WEIXIN]

a lot of pua hate women because they get rejected so much

[ArchDruidMordred]

I would like to ask your opinion on league mobility.

[doireallyneedone]

I assume you mean dating girls outside of your league? I. e. more attractive than you are. It's pretty difficult, its definitely much easier to stay within your league

[ArchDruidMordred]

I meant increasing your league so that I CAN get higher than my natural league.

[doireallyneedone]

Yes it is possible, but still largely confined in my opinion as there's so many things one can't change about themselves. But things you can do to maximise your 'league':
- Dress as well as you can
- Get a good haircut
- Workout and try to achieve a good physique
- Have a successful career
- Try to develop an attractive personality

[Starfishlover]

If this is true, I am utterly disgusted at the mistreatment of feelings. May PUA burn in hell.

[doireallyneedone]

Which point (s) in particular? Could you please elaborate? thanks

[YourFutureEx]

Great! Very honest and to the point.

[platona]

BS. Girls are attracted to personality/ that is the main point of PUA and game. nothing else.

[SilenRose]

Reminds me of Hitch except in that movie he helps guys get the one girl they are in love with.

[doireallyneedone]

I think that is a romanticised idealised version. Unfortunately for many men that will never really work. Hence why PUA is needed for some men.

[SilenRose]

PUA seems more like a way for guys to have sex with as many girls as possible instead of finding the right one.

[doireallyneedone]

^Yeah what you just said is the misconception I think. PUA is marketed that way, as that is what appeals to guys - since in our society, getting lots of girls is almost seen as a macho thing for guys. The reality is, most guys in PUA are far from your smooth talking Casanovas, they are generally nerds or socially inept guys who get no girls. Many of them are virgins or never had a girlfriend before. About 95% of PUA is just teaching a guy how to talk to a girl. Of course there is a % of guys who do try to have sex with as many women as possible, but similarly there are many women who will have sex with many men. That is an individual choice.

[SilenRose]

I already know the types of guys who go for this but in regards to the woman. I haven't heard of woman doing the equivalent of PUA in order to sleep with a lot of guys.

[doireallyneedone]

That's because a woman doesn't need PUA to sleep with men. Men will sleep with her if she allows them to. Women control sex. I know plenty of women who've slept with many many guys. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their individual choice.

[SilenRose]

I never said there was anything wrong with woman sleeping with any number of guys. I was saying that guys who use PUA to sleep with numerous woman is not the same as woman who sleep with numerous guys. Guys who use PUA to sleep with woman only have the seediest intentions while woman make it clear. That's my take on it.

[doireallyneedone]

So women who sleep with men are ok. Yet men (who are disadvantaged in some way, and try to make up for it by learning how to speak with women) is seedy? You know, the guys that I know who are the best at picking up and sleeping with women are not PUAs.

Your post is the exact misunderstanding I tried to address. PUA is marketed like its some sort of magic pill that will allow guys to sleep and get many many women. I'm sure you know that there is no such thing. PUA is teaching someone how to talk to women. That's it. Whether a person's intentions are 'seedy' or not is not really related to learning PUA. If they are 'seedy' now, they were probably seedy before.

I know plenty of 'seedy' girls too. I know plenty of girls that cheat on their boyfriends. So what? There will always be people like that. PUA didn't create them.

[SilenRose]

There is no point in me continuing to respond to you because you keep taking what I write and twisting it to conform to your thoughts. Then you try to compare things that shouldn't be compared or detour from the topic. Where does cheating women come into this? Because I called PUA's seedy? This is a rhetorical question and i could care less what your response is. Enjoy your day.

[doireallyneedone]

And you ignore everything I write and continue along your preconceptions of PUA without any logical thinking.

Let me quote you to make sure I'm not twisting anything you're saying. You said: "I was saying that guys who use PUA to sleep with numerous woman is not the same as woman who sleep with numerous guys". And I'm saying that it is more or less the same thing. A man (who might be disadvantaged in some way and gets tips on how to speak with women) and then sleeps with a women is worse than a woman who sleeps with a man? Why? Because he had to get help

The misconception is that PUA is something seedy and crazy, but in reality all it is, is giving guys tips on how to speak to women. That's it. And like I've said, the misconception is largely driven by the way the PUAs market themselves. They 'oversell' what they actually do to appeal to the ego of men.

[SilenRose]

Thanks for that. You've helped me understand PUA's. In short PUA's = Shit.

[doireallyneedone]

Thanks for helping me understand you. You = idiot.

[rabbit316]

where is the other take you wrote?

[rabbit316]

"So if you are a 5/10 guy, you will now succesfully and with consistency pull the 5-6/10 girl."

i don't do pua, but what's the point then if this is all it can teach you? any guy can get girls who are about on the same level as them on the looks scale. guys who don't want to learn how to get girls who are 5's and 6's. guys want to be able to get girls who are from 7/10 upwards. if you will just be able to get girls who are about as attractive as you then why bother with it at all?

[doireallyneedone]

Because many men can't even get girls 'within their own league'. Getting girls higher rating than yourself is much harder to do. It usually requires either exceptional game or something else that's exceptional (bedroom skills, wealth, popularity etc)

[doireallyneedone]

Other take:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a9545-dating-as-an-asian-male-truth-myths

[doireallyneedone]

The other thing is looks are subjective. But the interesting thing is go to some 'PUA forums' where they post pictures of themselves and women they slept with. Personally I found the so called '8/10, 9/10s' they were sleeping with were average or slightly above average and actually around the same attractiveness as the guy. The holds true in my experience too. I'd personally rate myself around 6-7/10 (on looks alone). Yes there is the odd occasion I'd pull a 9, but 90% of the time I'm getting girls 'within my league'. The difference is, with 'PUA' I can consistently get girls that I come across within 6-7/10, whereas before I would still fail with lots of girls within that range. My success with women higher than me has improved too but its still highly inconsistent.

[Tarvold]

Got link to your take on dating as an Asian male?

[doireallyneedone]

Here:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a9545-dating-as-an-asian-male-truth-myths