No, Models Aren't Supposed to be "Sexy"... And, No, the Fashion Industry Isn't Conspiring to Make Us Starve Ourselves

[redeyemindtricks]

#battleroyale #TeamRJ

In the world of the internet, certain things are just inevitable. Like the fact that, if an argument drags on long enough, someone will eventually be compared to Hitler and/or the Nazis.

And... the topic of today's breakfast club:

In any discussion of "hot" women... Someone's eventually going to trot out fashion models as an example.

Specifically, editorial models. The kind you see in fashion layouts, in glossy magazines and the like.

...Or commercial models, like the Victoria's Secret angels. (Most commercial models come from editorial careers anyway, so this is really "Play it again, Sam." Which no one ever actually said in a movie, by the way.)

At this point -- since the internet is, after all, the internet -- the discussion usually devolves into a cloud of bitter obscenities gargled from froth-corrupted lungs.

"Men are such filthy fucking pigs!"

"They're promoting anorexia!"

"They want us to feel bad about ourselves!"

Pull up a chair.

__

Ridiculously Wrong Piece of Crazy Insanity #1: "(Straight) MEN like fashion models."

I hear this WAY too often.

The idea that the waif physique is something perpetrated upon women by a global conspiracy of straight men, for their own gleeful masturbatory satisfaction (and perhaps to keep a lid on food prices, too... WHO KNOWS D00D).

I mean...

Ahahahaha hahahah hahahahha hahahah haha hahahaahahaahah hahah.

Hahah hahah ahahha aha ha.

Ha.

Not that this DESERVES a serious response -- if you've gotten to know more than 0 straight men in your entire life, you'll already realize how insane it is -- but, since I'm in a giving mood today, here are two actual pieces of scholarly research, to back up what everyone already knows anyway:

1)

Women's own ideal (for the female body) is MUCH thinner than what men find ideally attractive.

In fact, even when specifically trying to guess what men prefer, women STILL choose way too thin.

(Men, on the other hand, are able to guess women's preferences accurately... for female bodies, at least. Men have a shitty grip on what WE like... but that, friends, is another discussion for another day.)

2)

The only men who even somewhat prefer waif-like women, on average, are men who don't think they ever want kids. (Guess they're really not bullshittin', if that extends all the way to their subconscious mate preferences... holy shit.)

...And even THOSE men still prefer female bodies that are curvier and more "fertile"-looking than those of fashion models.

The difference is captured pretty well by this graphic:

...Except it's almost certainly more pronounced than that. Remember, those items were chosen from CELEBRITY "multiple choices" -- so, there probably weren't too many women of more normal proportions from which to pick.

But, regardless, we can safely put to rest this particular ridiculously wrong piece of crazy insanity.

In fact...

Straight men find the fashion-model physique so sexually UNappealing that they don't even look at THOSE parts of the models.

I shit you not.

"Eye-tracking heatmaps" show where viewers look, from blue (least time) to red (most time). This is a heatmap for STRAIGHT MEN looking at a Dolce & Gabbana fragrance ad:

Straight men. NOT EVEN LOOKING AT THE TITS.

Oh wait. It gets better:

Yep... men... NOT EVEN LOOKING AT A BARE ASS.

...When it's on a girl who ain't got ass.

(Side point: We look at the shoes. Men don't. Lol ahahahahha)

Okay, I think we've settled this one.

Anyone who thinks that fashion models are supposed to be "sexy" -- to men -- has officially lost their grip on reality.

If they ever had one.

__

So... alright, we know fashion models are chosen to appeal to women.

Duh.

Now... let's talk about THAT.

Because... um... yeah. There is, to put it lightly, a great deal of misunderstanding on that side of the aisle, too.

Ridiculously Wrong Piece of Crazy Insanity #2: "Fashion models are chosen to make normal women feel shitty about themselves."

Uh...

First... Like what the fuck? Let's just stop and think about that, for a sec.

Fashion houses are BUSINESSES. They SELL THINGS. They sell really, really expensive -- and completely frivolous -- goods.

If you want to sell someone really, really expensive things that she doesn't actually need?

Uh...

You don't do that by making her feel shitty and fat.

High-end couture marketing gives women something to ASPIRE to.

"Aspirational" is a buzzword that you'll see in the prospectus of just about every single high-end brand in the world, like, say, Hermès.

Annnnnnd THIS... this... is the reason why editorial models look like editorial models, kiddies. It's so fucking simple that it hurts.

Wait for it...

Women are physically inspired -- generally speaking -- by other women their size or slimmer.

Like... duhhhh.

This is another one of those things that no one should ever NEED to back up with research. But, like I said... Giving mood, today.

Peep it: Women's own BMI's, versus the BMI's they found most attractive (or "aspirational", in marketing terms).

That pink line is where the x- and y-values are equal. (Nice tricky axis scales there, guys!)

Yep, there are exactly TWO data points there for women who picked "preferred" or "inspirational" bodies bigger than their own.
And both of those women were quite slim -- BMI's between 17 and 18 -- and, in both cases, the difference was so tiny as to be pretty much negligible. (Those two data points are only a few pounds off of the pink line. That's a few glasses of water, or a nice bowl of soup, away from having the same BMI.)

And there you go. That's why fashion models look like ... well, fashion models.

The ideal fashion model is "inspiring" or "aspirational" to as many female consumers as possible.

In other words... She's slimmer than EVERYONE, but without actually looking like she's sick or diseased.

So, she looks like...
...A fashion model.

It ain't complicated.

Businesses want to sell things... so they want to make people want to buy things. As many people as possible. I KNOW RIGHT? Like omfg that's cray.

__

Now, let's take the cold, hard bayonet of reality and skewer some reasonable ideas.

__

Reasonable Idea that Turns Out to be Totally Wrong #1: "Overweight models make overweight women feel better about themselves."

I mean... sure, this sounds reasonable. The usual line of reasoning: Thinner models make bigger women feel shitty about themselves -- so, naturally, bigger models should help them feel less shitty about themselves.

Totes plausible.

...But totes wrong.

Sry try again.

In actual reality, thinner models make bigger women feel shitty about themselves... and bigger models ALSO make bigger women feel shitty about themselves.

Basically, thinner models make bigger women feel inadequate by comparison... but bigger models remind bigger women that they're ... well ... bigger.

Ironically, thinner women get a confidence boost from BOTH types of models -- from the thinner models because they're "aspirational", and from the bigger models because they feel superior by comparison.

Hey, don't yell at me! Go yell at the authors of the study if you need to yell at someone.

Oh, and, go tap Aerie and Dove on the shoulder, and kindly explain why their ad campaigns didn't deliver the expected results.

__

Reasonable Idea that Turns Out to be Totally Wrong #2: "Fashion photos emphasize fashion models."

...The fuck?

How could THAT possibly be wrong?

Aren't we talking about ... pictures of fashion models, here?

Well...

Some editorial layouts and ads for ya.

Have a look.

If you've looked at fashion photography much -- and paid attention much -- you'll realize how LITTLE attention is actually given to the models, comparatively speaking.

You know why? I'll tell you why.

When models are too "in-your-face", female consumers react with hostility and defensiveness -- and form negative associations with the brand.

When models are photographed more peripherally -- and/or as secondary to the activity in which they are engaging -- those same consumers find the advertising "aspirational", and form favorable impressions of the brand.

Fashion houses have known this for decades and decades, but I can't find any research study older than this one. I have the full article -- if you want it, just ask.

Oh -- This ESPECIALLY goes for brands that have the potential to be branded with that scarlet "S" for "slutty".

Reasonable Idea that Turns Out to be Totally Wrong #3: "Women think fashion models are sexy... where sexy means, like, sexy."

Again...

Noooope.

After reading the above, you should already understand this one.

Sex appeal is forward, direct, and INTIMIDATING -- and puts most women on the defensive. This is the same unfortunate instinct that leads all too many women to yell "slutttttt!" at any beautiful woman who might dare to wear "something that reminds ya she's a woman" (as my husband would say).

SMART branding, in fact, involves models who DON'T flip the sex-appeal switch in women's minds.

Victoria's Secret is currently the most popular clothing brand in the world... in no small part because NONE of its advertising could EVER be accused of being "forward" or "slutty".

No Victoria's Secret ad will EVER put the model's sexuality front and center. The brand's appeal is built on "playful!" "carefree!" "mb I'll adult... someday!"

(This isn't hate by the way -- I'm a card-carrying Angel VIP, so, I got got.)

This is a typical VS ad:

Anything and everything BUT sex, happening there. This picture makes me think "sleepover", which is fun, but also the least sexy thing ever.

If I were still in the dating market, that picture would also make me think... "These women are not threats."

NOT THREATS.

Aspirational.

And ... there ya go.

You now understand fashion marketing.

Class dismissed.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Honestly, I pretty much always knew those models aren't "sexy" to men. Maybe it's because I'm from the ghetto, but the men always openly stated how they like cornbread and tortilla fed thick women. The big butt trend that is barely hitting white/maintstream America, was pretty much always there in Latino cultures. And black culture as well.
Victoria Secret models don't make me feel terrible about my body. Women like Ashley Graham, Kim Karshadian, Beyonce, Katy Perry, and Sofia Vergara did. Dont get me wrong, I love their bodies, but I just hated that I didn't look like that. I hated that I didn't have "Latina curves/hips". And yes, I am well aware that not all those women are Latina.

And the models in Latino anything are overly curvy and sexual. Hell, even our weather girls look ridiculously bootylicious, and growing up it did kinda suck to wait for your "Latina curves" but never get them.

Now, I don't really care about it as much. You only get one body, you can hate it or change it.

Also, were the Aerie and Dove campaigns not as successful as stick thin photoshop?

[redeyemindtricks]

Looool girlfriend... believe me, if I'd walked around for a few hours of any day after age 12 with a parrot on my shoulder, I'd be hearing it squawk "Quién te robó las nalgas?" for the rest of my life.

Srsly... I was about 120lbs in high school, and I'm 6'2". And I swear to you, every other girl at my school (a school with 6,000 students) was a video vixen.

I *still* get a damn lump in my throat when I see women with that incredible small waist and that solid shelf of a butt that hardly even MOVES when they walk. It's like I'm staring pure fertility in the face, and losing -- badddd. (I have a bit of a history there, too -- could tell you on pm if you're interested)

But... srsly... 6'2" 120lbs, girl. I at least knew better than to torture myself, and I could at least play to my strengths. I'm not gna play a game I obviously can't win.

[BuchitaBuchys]

Damn you're tall lol

[redeyemindtricks]

That I am. (:

[BuchitaBuchys]

Thanks for mh lol

[redeyemindtricks]

Yw. xx

[meatballs21]

Excellent. This message needs to be written in the sky in giant letters. Models are not meant to be sexy. They are meant to be a living clothes hanger to display new fashions on a runway.

If you want to see the sort of women with bodies men find sex, look at porn stars. Their bodies have to look good and be desirable. Some of them are tiny and petite, with small breasts. Others are voluptuous and have large breasts and booty. Some are obese, some are less than 100lbs. Each man has his own particular dream and you can bet there's porn stars who fit that ideal.

Oh, and there are former models turned porn stars. Zoe Voss is one.

[redeyemindtricks]

"If you want to see the sort of women with bodies men find sex, look at porn stars"
^^ I was thinking about talking about that, but the take was pretty long as it is. And, I don't know where one would get reliable data on that. (There's that Billion Wicked Thoughts book that came out recently-ish, but I don't remember how quantitative that book was.)

Of note, amateur porn -- "warts and all" -- is BY FAR the most popular type of porn. And BBW porn is way way way way way way WAY more popular than porn of super skinny chicks (... so much so, in fact, that the latter is almost vanishingly rare).

[meatballs21]

Here's your reliable data:

jonmillward.com/.../

It does unfortunately counter your assertion that BBW porn is so popular. The average porn star is significantly lighter than the average woman. It might be because my own preference is for slim over voluptuous but I find there's no shortage of petite porn stars for me to admire.

Amateur is good except that the camerawork tends to be awful/shakey/low quality. It's funny how you get the full gamut of body types and body part shapes and something suddenly hits you as WOW.

[redeyemindtricks]

If the "average" is 117lbs, then that's clearly a median, not an arithmetic mean. (If it were an arithmetic mean, there's *no way* there'd be enough double-digit weights to counter the effect of even a relatively small number of BBW's.)

That makes sense, because there really aren't any "in-betweens". There's pretty much normal porn, and there's plumper/BBW porn. If you're a woman who is a size 10 or 12, there's ironically almost no market for that -- you either need to lose some weight, or else gain a LOT of weight.
Obvs there will be more "normal" weight porn stars, hence that median value.

They're comparing to the average for ALL women in the country, which is disingenuous as fuck because that's an average for... like, middle-aged women ahah
The average US 19-year-old weighs something in the 140-150 lb range, I think.

[meatballs21]

Haha! Even so, it makes for interesting reading (I love the study) and supports your position that men do not want supermodels.

The other response I considered (and will save for another time) was "what women think men want" with a picture of Kim Kardashian or Nicki Minaj, and "what men actually want" with a picture of your typical 5'5 140lb woman.

[redeyemindtricks]

Kim K lol... ironic you'd say that, it's mostly women (in my experience) who are all ga-ga over her. Guys are mostly like "uhhh I'd fuck her and live off her money, but that's about it"

Also, Kim is short (I think she's... what, like 5'2" or something?)
That's another thing most women don't understand! Most women think being short is a *disadvantage* in the mating game. But, realistically speaking, shorter women have the most options by far, most of the time.
As far as I see it, the only major disadvantage of being short (as a woman) is that you'd get a lot of "faux dominance" from guys, if dominance is something that's important to you. (If a guy is genuinely dominant with me, at my height -- especially if he's shorter than me -- then that shit ain't fake.)

[redeyemindtricks]

Also, runway models ≠ editorial/commercial models. Runway is a whole different animal altogether. See Tarvold's comment thread.

[dangerDoge]

I can get behind this myTake (or at the very least, can't argue against) *almost* entirely. My only big point of contention is the statement regarding straight men (who want kids) not finding the models appealing.

Speaking personally, I find the "man's ideal woman" version more attractive than the left. However, I still find the left attractive. And, likewise, I'd go to say that the vast majority of editorial models are still considered "attractive" to me. (Note: This is also speaking from a straight dude who likes the idea of having kids, so one cannot disregard my opinion on that note lol.)

Now, I can't claim to regard myself as a representation for all men, but I think that from what I've seen around, many men would still find the "woman's ideal woman" to be attractive. Maybe not ideal as you first said, but certainly not unappealing like you later said.

I can accept the base ideas of your myTake, although I believe some parts were exaggerated that hurt your points (i. e. quote in contention: "Straight men find the fashion-model physique so unappealing...") It leads the reader to almost draw conclusions that models (specifically editorial) are unnattractive, in which I would say they quite aren't.

[redeyemindtricks]

"The camera adds ten pounds" is a real thing -- and, when photo shoots are not happening, ultra thin women are not always dressed in stylish clothes that accentuate their silhouettes so well.

I mean... dude I speak only from experience. My weight never fluctuated by more than 10-15 lbs, but, whenever I was *up* 10-15 lbs, male attention always EXPLODED. From randoms, and also from every boyfriend I ever had, and from my husband, too.
... And these were guys who met me at my normal weight, so, it's not like their eyes were broken when we met.

But, dude... sry if this wasn't clear, but, fashion models -- including me, back in the day -- are still significantly thinner even than the "woman's ideal woman".
Back then, my weight fluctuated between about 118 and 132 lbs. I'm 6'2". At the bottom, that's a BMI of about 15.
Find BMI 15 on that scatterplot with the pink line -- it's basically below ALL the data points.

The left-hand figure ("women's ideal") is more like BMI 17, which is

[redeyemindtricks]

still a little bit higher than even my "fat" weight back then (6'2" 132lbs = BMI 16.9).

So, basically, you are still in line with all the normal dudes.

And you're using the word "still" -- "I *STILL* find the [BMI 17] woman attractive" -- implying that you're starting to hit the lower threshold. Would you have liked me at my lowest working weight of 117-118lbs at 6'2"?
Ehhh...
If so, nowhere near as much.

[dangerDoge]

Well, I haven't seen editorial models in real life, so alas, I can only judge by the camera/photos. Even then I can admit I've only been exposed to a limited amount... Commercials, snippets of magazines, random city ads, whatnot. I can only imagine the complimentary clothing and shtuff-- you would know about that much more than I would.
With that in mind, I've also seen some sickly looking runway sorta girls that were ungodly skinny. Now that looked bad from what I've seen. If the images and weights and situations you are describing are sorta like that, I'm on board with what you are saying and have no more qualms.

I was more so looking at the picture in the take and thinking to myself "ehh she is still pretty, even if almost too thin." Then I interpreted the myTake as saying "this is base example of an editorial model." Hey, maybe I misinterpreted what you were saying here, and if I did, that's 'totes' on me.

[redeyemindtricks]

okay, I suppose there's some ambiguity.

The brunette in the two Katharine Hamnett tearsheets (the black-and-whites) has BMI ≈ 16. The woman on the right (sitting down) in the Grace Coddington editorial (with the 3 women in the retro outfits) has a BMI ≈ 15.5. Both figures lie below "woman's ideal woman", which is normally somewhere in the 17-18 range depending on exactly which women are being surveyed.

The other two women in the Coddington layout... their necks look weird to me, so, I'm guessing photoshop? That's a Vogue layout, and Vogue doesn't retouch *too* heavily, but those poses look weird enough that I kinda don't want to slap numbers on them. (If I HAD to say, I'd say BMI ≈ 15 for them.)

The blonde bending over the washer in the first KH ad, and the woman in the Fusion editorial (out in the chaparral/rocks), I really can't get numbers on, since their poses are too weird. Esp the Fusion girl, with her legs in the foreground like that.

[adrianalima0]

Nice myTake!
On the VS model topic. Victoria's Secret models are popular because they have drop dead gorgeous faces. Their stunning faces (even though they are fit) is why people are so drawn to them. There are millions of fit women pretty much none of them are as beautiful as a VS model face-wise an VS *knows* this

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...75de2dd7e2.jpg
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...faedaa5aa4.jpg
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...8e20a0658d.jpg
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[Anonymous]

Visual attention pattern is quite right, I mostly look at the face, and legs of course, I don't care about butt, because I'm a leg man.
Anyway, some models are very sexy, here are some of the best examples:

ris.fashion.telegraph.co.uk/.../DK-M_2800266a.png

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...7469306634.jpg

www.comprardecadurabolin.com/.../...th_fitness.jpg

i4.mirror.co.uk/.../...Penshoppe-Denimlab-2015.jpg

iv1.lisimg.com/.../600full-lindsay-ellingson.jpg

[Mesonfielde]

I'm legitimately APPALLED and AMAZED by this Take! It might as well be the BEST TAKE I'VE EVER READ!

This actually explains perfectly well why I NEVER find supermodels attractive, NEVER! I always said they're scrawny and not sexually appealing to me at all - and look, it's because that's what they were inherently designed for!

Honestly, I feel kinda stupid not having realized that supermodels are not appealing because they are supposed to appeal to women and not men.

I guess what I'll never understand is why females feel like they should "aspire" to be a thinner body than what men find sexually attractive.

What's the point of aspiring to have an unattractive body? I don't get it!

I DON'T GET IT

[redeyemindtricks]

Hah, glad I could help. (:

"I guess what I'll never understand is why females feel like they should 'aspire' to be a thinner body than what men find sexually attractive."

^^ To this... You're pretty much implying that we shouldn't aspire to anything other than what *men* want.
... Huh?
I mean... The psychology is obviously complicated, but, it is what it is -- and guys would do well to just *understand* that this stuff is the case.

Besides, the same is true for guys who work out. Men's ideal for their own muscularity is pretty much *always* more than what the average straight woman actually wants. Sometimes a LOT more.
... Am I gna respond to that with "I DON'T GET IT"?
Well... no.
Because, frankly, I get the fact that men actually have certain physical goals for (*gasp*) THEIR OWN REASONS, beyond just appealing to women. Shocker, right?

Same thing in the other direction. I know it's *crazy* that we might actually have physical goals FOR OURSELVES... but, yeah, that's

[redeyemindtricks]

a thing. (:

Besides, a big part of it is fantasy aspiration. It's not as though 99.5 percent of women are actually willing to undertake the sorts of dietary/workout regimes that will actually *maintain* a lower bodyweight -- especially once they have busy lives and careers and kids and all that.
In the same way 99.5 percent of guys... mb even 99.9 percent, since it's a lot harder for guys to achieve extreme muscle definition than for us to just get slimmer -- *definitely* won't change their workouts, diets, and entire lifestyles to actually ACCOMPLISH their dream physique.

So... at the end of the day it's mostly a matter of "my fantasy ≠ your fantasy", in most couples. And the reality just... is what it is.

The good thing, though, is that MOST people actually LIKE "ordinary reality".
For instance, amateur porn is easily the most popular category of porn -- and most consumers choose amateur porn with people of similar ages/races/body types as themselves.

[redeyemindtricks]

Oh, and, thanks for the kind words. <3

[Mesonfielde]

@redeyemindtricks
>> You're pretty much implying that we shouldn't aspire to anything other than what *men* want.

Haha, I knew you'd say that, I knew it as I was writing it down.

The problem isn't that it "doesn't appeal to men".
It's that it doesn't serve a purpose.
It has no value. It doesn't provide a benefit.
There are guys who bulk up muscles so that "women will find them attractive".
But even without that, muscles serve a purpose. Physical strength has utility.
Being thin has no utility.

Therefore I do not understand why anyone would aspire to be thinner than what still has utility.

I personally am lazy to work out, because I like my current "skinny fat" physique. However, if I worked out, it would be to increase stamina and power output - merely because that is a useful thing to have more of. But "being more thin" doesn't provide a benefit like that. Therefore I do not understand it.

[redeyemindtricks]

Muscle can have utility, but, not the "vanity" type of muscle that 95% of urban and suburban male gym-rats build. That's not functional strength at all -- it's basically just outerwear. Outerwear that makes them less physically flexible and more susceptible to injury in a fight, too (since almost NONE of them stretch nearly as much as they should).

More generally -- Come onnnnnn
It's not like we're living in some post-apocalyptic survivalist economy, here. MOST things people want, in first-world countries, offer relatively little in the way of utilitarian value.
• Why do people buy clothes that cost more than the cheapest ones?
• Why do people buy expensive cars?
• Why do people buy gourmet food (which is bad for both their wallets and their waistlines)?

Also... On top of that --
Being thin absolutely DOES have utilitarian value. This isn't a perfect analogy, but it has mostly the same effect on other women as men's height and imposing physique has on other men -- it DEFINITELY

[redeyemindtricks]

gives off a subconscious aura of superiority, to which LOTS of others -- not all, but certainly lots -- will give deference.
Trust me on this one. My physique isn't appreciably different from back in my editorial days (except I have boobs now, too), and the effect I have on other women in a room -- especially when I'm *very* well dressed and put together -- is palpable.
It's DEFINITELY a thing.

[Mesonfielde]

>> not like we're living in some post-apocalyptic survivalist economy, here. MOST things people want, in first-world countries, offer relatively little in the way of utilitarian value.

Ohhh... maybe that's the problem. I live in Hungary, so it kinda feels like a post-apocalyptic survivalist economy at times. That would explain why I don't get it; although even with that, people still strive to be thinner than thin - they just get the expensive-looking clothes from second-hand stores :p

>> Muscle can have utility, but, not the "vanity" type of muscle that 95% of male gym-rats build.

Funny thing, I never understood that either. Which is why I don't have that.

>> Being thin absolutely DOES have utilitarian value. It has mostly the same effect on other women as men's height and imposing physique has on other men -- it DEFINITELY gives off a subconscious aura of superiority, the effect on women is palpable.

I see. Although I'll never get why being thin is so important to them.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Status. Being thin these days is higher status and viewed positively. Being muscular brings status, even when they go over board. Cars, clothes, ridiculous food? Status, also novelty, but don't underestimate status.

In any social species, status is all about securing resources and sexual access. So "we shouldn't aspire to anything other than what *men* want" isn't accurate, but on a fundamental level this is what we do. There's no necessity for all of this kind of behaviour to be conscious. We pursue status because it makes us feel good -- and that's all girls will ever have to say when you ask them about why the want to look the way they do -- but it's evolved to feel good because being high status is good for the continuity of your bloodline. In a very indirect and unconscious way virtually everyone aspires to be sexually appealing.

We're all just animals, don't get uptight about it.

[Mesonfielde]

@AllThatSweetJazz Ah, that explains a lot. I don't care about status, I care about money :D

[COCOCHANEL]

actually in japan, the vast majority of straight men prefer model thin girls (and openly state this) and this is a trend in society that has been continuing for a few decades. as thin as possible. they do NOT care for ”curves” as in big breast or a round butt/hips. they don't see it as a trade-off. hourglass is not what appeals to them.

i've talked to doctors and confirmed that it hasn't always been like this in japan. feminine, soft ”mochi-like” body types used to be preferred. not anymore. it's well known and men say it freely to women and women are intense about being thin.

[redeyemindtricks]

*Sexually* preferred, though? Or just seen as wifely/matronly?

[COCOCHANEL]

preferred for both showing off and sexually. i can say with great confidence that japanese males born in japan in the 80's and 90's almost ALL prefer skinny to extremely skinny and they do not mince words. they do not appreciate an hourglass shape. there are a few who do but honestly i've never heard a man say he prefers big tits and you can clearly see it in the women they choose to date and marry.

[redeyemindtricks]

Interesting! Thanks for the perspective.

[COCOCHANEL]

sure, i haven't talked to everyone and i am mainly focusing on feedback from the ones i've found to be at least 80% my type. i mean guys who know they are hot because girls come to the in droves. there were a few guys out of the thousands i've spoken to who said they prefer a feminine soft body but they weren't my type. sure there are some busty gravure idols and pornstars but there isn't a demand for this kind of girl in real life. plump butts? absolutely zero demand.

[FakeName123]

Japan is by no means a good example for the rest of the world though. I will bite nonetheless. Japans overly tradtiional ways are cracking down altogether and all in one. The culture is about to collapse and implode and it is just hidden behind bling-bling and spectacle.

Not to mention that Redeye explained it here: "The only men who even somewhat prefer waif-like women, on average, are men who don't think they ever want kids."

Japan reached a point a few years ago where adult diapers are bought more than baby-diapers. You really do not need more info to understand how many japanese still want children.

[COCOCHANEL]

@FakeName123 it's not that they don't want children, it's that they don't feel financially stable because most people are working contract jobs. it's hard to find job stability.

[FakeName123]

My great-grandparents raised 6 children right after war when they had close to nothing. It's all about, if you really want to.

[COCOCHANEL]

@FakeName123 i know, but these days people want to be financially stable first. it's the same in the west. that's why so many people abort and/or delay till it's too late

[capturemyheartnow]

I was fascinated to see some of the women volleyball players in the Japanese Olympic team and also the Olympic basket Ball team. They looked very beautiful to me. Normal Japanese women that I get to see in Reflexology videos and Massage videos are usually short and chubby. But they look young may be because of their facial texture. But I will prefer to say that the women basket ball and volley ball players were looking stunningly beautiful.

[popsickle]

I think fashion has its own intentions, and since its in a position of power... like any other position of power... it has some intended and unintended affects on its audience. I think you have some great points especially how real life average male attraction works differently, but I'm not entirely convinced the insecurities provoked by the fashion industry are unintentional. Why? Because insecurities bring business. Brings attention. Also, sex appeal doesn't have to be as intense as you describe. It can be subtle.

[redeyemindtricks]

"insecurities bring business. Brings attention"

^^ "Insecurities" is a loaded word, of course, but... yep. The fashion industry has understood this for FAR longer than scholars have. The psych people are only now beginning to study it.

Basically... The fashion houses know that their models will impact POSITIVELY on the moods -- and spending decisions -- of women who fit BOTH (1) their size ranges AND (2) their target personality, namely the gregarious see-and-be-seen type.

You'll see #2 in the studies under the guise of "social comparison orientation". Not an exact match but pretty damn close.
Check this one out, for starters:
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/.../abstract

They know what they're doing.

[KittieCat]

I always found it weird how women assumed guys like the model body yet (and not all guys like this but) you see guys raving about tits and ass and call me crazy but those models aren't carrying triple Ds or an ass so fat even Nikki would be jealous.
Anyways for you ladies out there, quit worrying about if you look like what guys like or whatever, some things you can change some things you can't. If you have small hips and you want big hips well tough shit, love who you are and embrace that shit cause someone will be jealous.
Awesome take btw! :)

[redeyemindtricks]

"If you have small hips and you want big hips well tough shit"

^^ Or, go have babies, and then don't breastfeed them. (: (Breastfeeding leaches the hip and thigh fat that's built up with pregnancy)

... ofc that's not going to be the *good* kind of bigger hips... lol.

[redeyemindtricks]

And thank you for the kind words <3

[KittieCat]

Lol no problem! :) <3

[RJGraveyTrain]

This was really informative, and actually a very fun read (and I ain't saying that just because I'm biased). Once you actually started putting it all together and explaining it my mind went to all of the girls I knew who blamed women in magazines for the reasons why they felt bad.

I now have a response to them all. Lol.

[redeyemindtricks]

Thanks! <3

It was fun to write, too. ("I KNOW RIGHT? Like omfg that's cray." -- I'm betting you lol'd at that one, specifically... I KNOW YOU GURLLLLL)

[RJGraveyTrain]

Yes lmao I laughed at all of your little narrative quips and gifs. XD You have me pegged.

[Polocrew]

Mom please stop embarrassing me fr, wow

[RJGraveyTrain]

@Polocrew Sshhh mommy's having an adult conversation. Go play with your legos.

[redeyemindtricks]

@Polocrew wha?

[Polocrew]

Woww.

[Bandit74]

Well actually I do often find them attractive in their photoshoots but the main thing I like about models is their faces and that they are often topless/naked, withboiled skin, and they are usually making sexually suggestive facial expressions.

Like if a girl with an average face but the same body was in the picture, I wouldn't be attracted to her at all.

Also when I see their bodies in pictures where they are not modeling ( without the skin oil, no photoshop, and no beautiful scenery behind her) then I am actually dissapointed at how plain I find them.

[Bandit74]

Oiled skin*

[redeyemindtricks]

ahah yeah, I figured that out when I got to the second reference to oil. LOL 😂😂😂 For a sec, I was like "nooo! boils all over would totally not get you the job!"

[Bandit74]

Normally I don't go back to correct spelling errors but this time I thought it was nessesary lol 😅

[redeyemindtricks]

yah, good call lol

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

I like this take.

Fashion modelling is about MONEY however and In order to get money they need to appease and inspire. For example when I see male models (David Gandy is my man crush) I'm envious and inspired.

However it can go both ways, models may be advertised to make bigger girls feel inferior/bad so that they slim down and buy the products... you never know advertising these days... and their strategic planning to impose jealousy to sell. Maybe this is my conspiracy theory here.

VS girls are super hot though, and no matter what bigger girls will hate on them.

[redeyemindtricks]

"models may be advertised to make bigger girls feel inferior/bad so that they slim down and buy the products..."
They do feel bad -- and they do adjust their health-related behavior accordingly, on average, too -- but, I'm not sure whether fashion advertisers would take THAT much upon themselves.
Check out the last 2 paragraphs in the LEFT column of the third page (marked page 206) of this:
www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/v35/naacr_vol35_285.pdf

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Yeah exactly.
Well money is money though. Very interesting article too ^^

[redeyemindtricks]

Also one other thing... there's surprisingly little money for the models in editorial work. (Dunno whether you meant this, when you said "MONEY" in all caps.)

When I was doing editorial, I had to do showroom work (boring as fuck, like being a mannequin for hours on end) and buyers' shows (like runway shows, but... less glamorous, with an audience of fashion buyer) to make enough for an actual living.

Obviously there's BIG money in major commercial contracts (like the VS angels), but that's like making it into the NFL, or the English Premier league, or something like that. In fact it's even *more* exclusive than those things, since there are several hundred players in those leagues, and there aren't anywhere near that many major commercial models.

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Oh no not the models! The big modelling brands

Oh wow, interesting! Did you enjoy it at all though? Then why is it worth it if you don't earn much?

Ah again, not the models themselves but the businesses!

[redeyemindtricks]

Oh hell yeah!

I got to live in 6 different countries in 6 years, with all of the different kinds of priceless experience that come from that -- and to this day I have friends in every corner of the globe...

A bunch of jobs "paid in kind" -- in other words, I got to keep the clothes samples -- so I had a wardrobe to DIE for by the time I was 23 or 24 (although moving that wardrobe from country to country was... uhhm fun)...

Although I worked through an agency, I learned to manage my own schedule and resources, while figuring out all the logistics of paying bills in each country on the fly -- which pretty much set the stage for the freelance stuff I do now...

I had my first taste of nutrition-hacking, since the food in every place I lived was so different...

Plus, I transitioned from editorial into a full-time position working for Medellín's fashion week organization. Had that one for a few years (about 70% time in Colombia and 30% in the States) until I was married and started

[redeyemindtricks]

doing more freelance stuff.

Totally worth it in every way.
Lol dude, I was in my early 20's... Roof over mah head,
food in mah belly, that was good enough for me. Everything else was just a bonus.

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Oh damn! At what age did you start modelling? I'm guessing France would have been one of the main countries you went to since the fashion industry is massive there, and Italy, Australia? And the clothes themselves would be worth thousands haha.

Yep yep and from a young age the experience gain and independence. Colombia? Why there, if it's such a small and poor country. Really admire that.

Exactly as long as you're safe, eating well and enjoy your job. However I have a drive to get money... probably will never go away. Even started my own little business at hs, selling sweets and dealing. Earnt at least £500. And someone else 2k lmao

[redeyemindtricks]

Just noticed this comment -- for some reason I never saw a notification for it.

Italy yeah -- I spent a year and change in Milan.
I wrote a thousand million words about that (and Medellín) on my opinion here:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q2116876-what-is-the-life-of-women-like-in-other-countries-besides-the-united

Never lived in France.

Australia? LOL dude... there is practically no fashion scene in Australia at all. What made you think of Aus?
(Out of all the first-world countries with decently big populations, Australia and Canada are the two that have pretty much NO significant couture/fashion scene AT ALL.)

Bang-on with the market value of the clothes ahahah
You hear some people complain about having somewhere to go but nothing to wear? Well... yeah lol, the story of my 20's was exactly the opposite ahah. All these thousand-dollar outfits, and DEFINITELY not enough money to actually go anywhere where they wouldn't look out of place. 😂😂😂
(In fact, now that I think about

[redeyemindtricks]

it, that's probably a not-insignificant reason why a lot of models date older, wealthier guys -- because they have all these really expensive clothes, and only those kinds of guys can actually afford to take them out to any place where those clothes would be appropriate to wear!)

I can imagine it would suck to be a RUNWAY model, because runway clothes are weird eyesores. (Runway collections aren't the same as the ready-to-wear stuff -- they're over-the-top pieces of weird weirdness.)
It would also suck to be a runway model because... well, you'd have to look like a runway model, too, ahahha (see tarvold's comment thread, if you don't understand what I'm laughing at there).

__

Lol there's nothing to "admire" about going to Colombia...
Medellín has the biggest fashion week in South America dude.
https://colombiamoda.inexmoda.org.co/en/

I was working in staging for the runway part of that show ^^. Remember, I'm

[redeyemindtricks]

bilingual Spanish/English from birth (my father is from Mexico). My father's father was actually originally *from* Colombia -- in fact, he was from the greater Medellín area. I still had (somewhat distant) relatives in the area who helped me move in, and everything ahah.
It was a pretty sweet gig -- it was like 70/30 percent time between Colombia and the States (Miami and/or Las Vegas), and I had a surprising amount of freedom to fly back and forth between the two countries pretty much whenever I wanted to -- on company-paid flights.

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Oh wow! Experienced all that? Never been to Italy ether but what you said is all very interesting, I can see how Italy is way more appreciative of beauty unlike America which is full of jealousy. Buildings in Milan are beautiful though! <3 South America does also have a lot of leaders, and authority issues leading to corruption etc.

HAHA! I thought so because AUS is a hot, beautiful and paradisaical country with a lot of attractive people!

hahah that makes so much sense! But who cares, you could wear those expensive clothes in a cheap takeaway restaurant, so what? :p

And I know what you mean with runway models

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...24b5de9b5c.jpg

Always wanted to go to South America anyway, especially Peru! I didn't know you were bilingual !
I could have been too with German/Polish and English. My dad is Polish and mum is German British who had a German speaking mother. Is that also one of the main reasons why you chose to go to Columbia?

[redeyemindtricks]

Interesting... The Polish- and Ukrainian-American immigrant grandparents I knew (don't know any immigrants from that region who are younger than grandparents) NEVER speak their native languages at home.
They probably would have punished their children for even *trying* to learn those languages -- they were ALL about assimilation.

One of the 10,000,000,000 reasons why I credit my father with most of my eventual success in the US is that he spoke English with us literally as much as he could -- he STRONGLY discouraged us from using the "Spanglish" that's so common in California, because he knew that would keep us trapped in the lower classes.
He really didn't speak Spanish at home unless he just didn't know how to say something in English, or unless he was swearing lol.
My mother was a native speaker of English (she also spoke Navajo, but... ahha NOPE. I tried learning some Navajo as a gift to *her* father -- who outlived her by several years -- and... holy shit. Let's just say, I

[redeyemindtricks]

understood why Navajo was used as a secret military code in the war!)... so, I at least got the baby talk in English. She died when I was 2.
My little brother is the only one of us who didn't get English baby talk -- my father still sang lullabies, etc in Spanish for the most part, and who can really baby-talk in a second language? -- and so he actually still has a SLIGHTLY different accent from the rest of us. (He was only a few months old when my mother died.) He's obviously not a foreigner, but the is something just... interestingly different about his speech.

I totally DO get dressed up for nothing, a lot. 😂😂
That habit started when my husband and I first got together. His work was always Thursday through Sunday nights for the most part, so, we had a lot of dates at unusual days/times.

Yeah, having fam in Colombia was a factor. Probably not a huge one tho. Inexmoda just happened to be interviewing, and I was ready for something new.

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Haha yes, that's true in America, it's all about the melting pot. Actually my dad has Polish-Hungarian roots (on his dad's side) his mum's side has German-Polish roots so for centuries my Polish side has been speaking German AND Polish due to being raised on the boarder with Germany... so their kids were also taught to speak German too... During the Second World War this also saved them from being shot, because they spoke German they were forced into joining the German army, or working in German tank and gun factories. In England there's a growing consensus that religions and cultures are assimilating much faster now than ever so less and less cultures are keeping to themselves, my generation for example, blacks, whites and browns don't care about race, hell I don't even recognise race just bros and friends. And yes that's true, since English is the most spoken language, however I still wish my parents spoke Polish and German to me, i'd have succeeded much further.

[MaLifeBeLikeOooAaah]

Haha my dad had to learn Russian due to the Russian rule over Poland, where books, scripts, and everyday life was pretty much Russian... Awwh I'm sorry to hear that <3 And you're part Native American too then? And that's very interesting too haha! My brother came straight from Poland to South Africa at the age of 11 and now has a full on South African accent and now has actually forgotten to speak Polish. I was born in SA and I think I still have a very slight SA accent, I sure as hell had an extremely strong one at the age of 5 when I moved to GB though, up until the age of around 6-7. I get dressed up for nothing :p always good to look fresh no matter what. Oo yeah, I might even consider going to Germany after my degree or during…since I know German and I have roots there too, a lot of family actually.

[Tarvold]

LOL... "class dismissed" - I wrote about this exact topic, with similar but much less insightful details, specifically using VS as a case study, for my finals paper in my MBA ethics class. Though I must admit, it was partially an excuse to watch the VS fashion show and call it homework.

Anyways, I have another theory on this, which I only have anecdotal evidence for, but perhaps you can help me confirm it - that is, the fashion industry is largely run by women and gay men. Fashion/catwalk models are chosen largely by gay male fashion to make their clothes look good, and straight men are getting blamed for something they didn't do.

[redeyemindtricks]

Oh, runway models? Yeah, runway models are basically walking clothes hangers.

I agree that straight men unfairly bear the brunt of the "blame" here -- and I wrote as much, in this take -- BUT, I don't think RUNWAY models have anything to do with that, at all.

First of all, most people -- including most women -- don't even really realize that runway models ≠ editorial/commercial models.

Second of all, runway models are REALLY WEIRD-LOOKING.
Their physiques are weird, sure (which normally doesn't matter much, because runway clothes tend to be gaudy and oversized -- they aren't the same as the ready-to-wear collections).
But... their FACES are also weird-looking. Look at some runway models sometime dude.
Since you're sufficiently nerdy to appreciate it... here's just one example: Runway models tend to have almost ZERO depth to their supraorbital ridge (brow bone). In other words, their eyes are as close as possible to being in the same

[redeyemindtricks]

vertical plane as their forehead.
Look at these runway models, and look at how NOT deep-set their eyes are:

makeupforlife.net/.../...ing-2009-fashion-show.jpg

thecrustycurmudgeon.files.wordpress.com/.../balenciaga-model-runway-240tp071709.jpg

makeupforlife.net/.../...ring-2009-runway-show.jpg

The reason is obvious, **IF** you actually stop to think about it. Let's see if you can guess what it is (scroll down for answer)

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.

.

.

.

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.

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... it's because runways are ALWAYS lit from above, with theatre-style lighting (which would make "normal" faces look weirdly shadowy). Those weird faces are the ones that actually look semi normal, with all that overhead lighting.

There are other reasons for all the weird weirdnesses of the runway look, too -- just like there are reasons for everything that's weird about weird dog breeds (like those wrinkles on a Shar Pei... draining blood away from its eye area during dog fights, and shit).

But, yeah, I don't

[redeyemindtricks]

think anyone has runway models in mind. Because runway models are freaks.

[Tarvold]

Wow. Interesting.

I hadn't considered the lighting factor at all, but makes so much more sense now.

oh... and didn't know that the model hierarchy was so well defined. hahahaha.

[redeyemindtricks]

Yeah, modeling is very segmented.

It is for guys, too.
For instance, you might think that "underwear model" and "fitness model" are interchangeable... but, no wayyy

If you look at underwear models, they tend to have mostly cylindrical torsos -- they have wide (but still defined) waists, and not much of a taper. That's the "underwear model" look.
The V-shaped taper is pretty much nonexistent among underwear models, unless they are "models" who happen to be famous athletes.

Like, here's Kellan Lutz (34" waist)
farm4. static. flickr. com/3593/3586396609_96574c3ba9. jpg

Mark Wahlberg, back in the day (33" waist)
images-ff.asos-media.com/.../...-afdf309260b8.jpeg

Fitness models, on the other hand, have a pronounced taper. They're also

[redeyemindtricks]

usually way shorter than underwear models (usually 5'5" to 5'9", versus 5'11"-6'3" -- again, to emphasize or de-emphasize the triangle shape, respectively)
This is Tim Gabel (27" waist in this picture)
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...92cc8a3f78.jpg

BIG differences.
(Marky Mark is REALLY short for an underwear model, but he was a singer/rapper first.)

__

that pic of Kellan Lutz didn't work, here it is again.
34" waist
farm4.static.flickr.com/.../...6609_96574c3ba9.jpg

[redeyemindtricks]

... Also, as I just typed in FatherJack's comment, the fact that lots of designers are gay has nothing to do with anything. Gay men and design just happen to come together a lot -- whether it's fashion design or any other kind of design.

[EmpatheticLady]

Lmaooooo. Oh, holy hell, I giggled throughout this entire thing. That was the most perfect thing I've read all day... and in a while for that matter. xD Cheers to you, ma'am!

Also: "At this point -- since the internet is, after all, the internet -- the discussion usually devolves into a cloud of bitter obscenities gargled from froth-corrupted lungs." This sums things up rather well on this site. :P

[redeyemindtricks]

ahah but did you realize that was actually a SRS LITERARY REFERENCE
https://www.English.emory.edu/LostPoets/Dulce.html

... about 5-6 lines from the bottom #highculturelowlife #nurdgurl #itshopeless

[redeyemindtricks]

@Fathoms77 will shit himself with joy at seeing a srs literary reference.

[EmpatheticLady]

You literary, crafty genius, you.

But seriously, though... the "O rly?" owl had me dyin' after what you said. It's so damn true.

[redeyemindtricks]

Lol "genius"
I put little hidden treasures in the stuff I write, because I entertain myself that way. Srsly, I'm like an 8-year-old.

[Fathoms77]

No idea what an SRS Literary Reference is. :P

[redeyemindtricks]

@Fathoms77 "serious"
yay the internet

[Fathoms77]

Oh. Yeah, I actually write words. :P

[FallOutBoy2001]

Hmmm, I usually see women in VS ads and think "sex" but I might be the quirky one here, and I still buy their products.

My only question is how the scientists who did the study of where men looked at models executed that study. I'm not sure how many men would look at a models tits if he knew everyone was going to know about it

[redeyemindtricks]

ahah

Given how many men *still* can't help themselves, even when they're with women who are honestly pretty rude about the whole "mah ahhhhs are up here" thing... it's definitely significant, even if it's skewed *somewhat* by whatever social inhibition.

[FallOutBoy2001]

Yeah. I mean I'll be like "yes, I stare at them too but can you continue making eye contact?"

[redeyemindtricks]

lol.

[RainbowFanGirl]

I don't care about Victoria secret models much. They inspire me to lose weight actually. I mean my boyfriend likes my body the way it is now, but I don't like it, so I'm striving to change it.

I'm going to post a take soon on my weight loss results. Almost there.

[redeyemindtricks]

Congratulations, and good luck <3

By the way, I like yr stuff here. You always post things that are well thought out -- especially for yr age. Impressive.

Yr boyfriend will probably still be pretty damn happy with yr body with a little less weight on it.
When I was younger, I always noticed a LOT less male attention when I was 10-15lbs down than when I was 10-15lbs up (that's the most my weight really ever fluctuated, not counting pregnancy). So, yeah...
But, I'm talking ≈118-120lbs versus ≈130-132lbs, and I'm 6'2".
As long as you're still talking within the normal weight range, I can't really imagine a dude caring that much either way.

How about yr friends? How are they, as far as being supportive?
I know that some groups of "frenemies" are all passive-aggressive about this shit ("Live a little! Here, eat this cake!"), while other groups of friends -- like mine -- are genuinely supportive of each other. How are yours?

[RainbowFanGirl]

Aw, thank you so much :) I like your stuff too you're always real and to the point.

Yeah, my friends have been supportive of me. It's my dad who sabotages me though. He always buys me donuts and cakes and stuff , probably doesn't want me to get hot or something. I dunno.

[redeyemindtricks]

The guy who downvoted apparently wants to sabotage you too. 😂😂😂

[RainbowFanGirl]

He's a hater. I get downvoted for saying I like kittens. XD

[Kevin342000]

Obviously guys don't like women without curves. Women are way too self conscious of their appearance all the time. My girlfriend is guilty of it too. She weighs more than me but is in no way fat. She has put on a couple lbs but I'll just let it go anyway lol

[Kevin342000]

However the Victoria secrets girls are definitely jerk off worthy😀

[redeyemindtricks]

lol!

[Kevin342000]

No reason to hate on those girls. Although my girlfriend would not appreciate my affection for them. She can be a little insecure sometimes and a little overbearing. But I wouldn't ever point out that she's being that way. She's so lucky to have me lol

[YourFutureEx]

Insane #1. True, but the content is bullshit
cf.girlsaskguys.com/.../...6-ab4f-4a576ae465bb.jpg
It's like saying that there is an ideal appearance which is universally beautiful.
Plus, what we like and what we want to become are completely two different things.
And what was the point to include that visual attention pattern? Even in porn videos, you will find out that men focus a lot on the face.

Insane #2. Who says that?

Reasonable #1. False. Have you ever talked to fat women? Observed their behaviour? Noticed their blind affection towards Ashley Graham?

Reasonable #2. Who says that?

Reasonable #3. Really? Who says that?

[COCOCHANEL]

Asian born Asian men care about face but always prefer the thinnest girl they can find

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL All men have body preferences. (to an extent)

[COCOCHANEL]

but they don't go after women with big breasts/butts. they don't want to date them.

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL Well, you can't blame them. You like only Asian men, they like only skinny women. Nobody wants to compromise.

[COCOCHANEL]

not blaming just saying how different it is from what most guys want in the west. i'm ok with various body types on Asian men. any height too. shorter than me is fine.

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL I'm not saying that either. Clearly, not all Asian born Asian men strictly prefer skinny women. But it is possible that you won’t like them for one reason or another.

[COCOCHANEL]

this isn't about me though. i've actually talked to thousands of men about this and if you come here you'll see what i mean.

[COCOCHANEL]

did you think i was just talking about me? i have a boyfriend and have dated the guys i chose (by their appearance). while i'm average height and body shape, i don't have big breasts/hips by japanese standards.

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL no I don't. I have read countless of opinions from you about how many guys you've had sex with and most (all?) Of them were pretty "meh".

And I think (not "sure" because you're Japanese, not me) that you pretty curvy. Definitely big by Japanese standards.

[COCOCHANEL]

meh? they were all very attractive by my standards. i wouldn't have sex with a guy who i didn't find attractive and i'm really, really picky. if you mean their personalities, how long they could last in bed, ethics, etc then yeah i'd say most were meh.

i'm not big by japanese standards. not sure why you think that. the guys who've seen me without clothes said i'm average in japan, not chubby nor ”a litte chubby” and not ”glamour”. some said that my breasts were smaller than average in japan and looked a lot bigger when i had clothes on (padded bra) my butt and thighs are chubby in my opinion but i fit japanese ”free size” s/m

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL I've fucked some hot girls who ridiculously sucked in bed. Looks/personality don't matter. I just read something like that from you. Guess you were referring their performance. Anyway,

Personally, I don't believe it's good to call "curvy" girls "chubby". They are different in my dictionary. And don't you have problems with your butt and not breast?

[COCOCHANEL]

i've always said looks absolutely matters and i get called shallow a lot and i'm fine with it.

in japan the term ”choi poccha” is used for both curvy and chubby and are kinda the same thing. ”glamour” is for girls who have both big breasts and hips/butt. i saw on the news that the most common female body type in this country is pear and you do see a lot of women around with this average pear body type but they don't date the hottest guys.

[YourFutureEx]

@COCOCHANEL lol they're inferior people who criticise you for saying "looks matter". If you have free time, ridicule them for their ignorance, they deserve it haha

Well, I'll believe you. I don't see much Japanese girls on daily basis. I've just seen them in porn or as singers. It must be true that there are pear shaped girls because comparing them to the North-Eastern girls from India (who have a bit similar E-Asiatic features), the Japanese girls have better defined shape.

[dipta]

@COCOCHANEL
IMHO and as a girl with actual hips and waist proportion, calling Japanese girls pear shaped is practically a joke. They aren't pear shaped, they are almost straight or with shoulders wider than their hips. Especially the younger crowd, but most of the population (at least where I live) and the fashion reflects that.

There's no difference between curvy and chubby because... they are NOT curvy, there isn't even such a notion. It's either thin, chubby or fat.
Many if not most men prefer thin or skinny, but then they're usually skinny themselves. Some prefer thin just to show off to his friends and take home for "genetics", not for sex. They're egocentric, always controlling what the other eats and body shaming them, and not out of love or concern for their health.
Personally, I find that in most loving relationships, both of them are not even skinny, just healthy and accepting of their partner (within reason).

[Wulfila]

This myTake actually explains quite a lot. I've never been a fan of the wispy supermodel types, and their being marketed towards women makes a lot of sense. I'd take a healthy, curvy girl any day.

You're so knowledgeable about everything, girl. Will you ever cease to amaze me? ;-)

[redeyemindtricks]

Haha thanks.

I suppose 90% of seeming "knowledgeable" is just shutting up about the stuff I *don't* know much about. LOL

[Wulfila]

True that! Stick to the stuff you do know, that way people can't tell what you don't know. Haha.

[SuitAndTie]

Well thank goodness. Now I don't need to re-evaluate myself when I think A, B or C models aren't attractive to me.

The girls I consider supermodels in my own world people will laugh at. Some people may even throw up when they see my taste in women.

[redeyemindtricks]

I'm so curious now -- you gotta throw at least ONE example at me.

I promise I won't throw up, I don't model anymore. 😂😂🙃🙃😶💋

[SuitAndTie]

Haha maybe throwing up is an exaggeration but something like this is very nice to look at:

www.google.co.uk/search

www.google.co.uk/search

[redeyemindtricks]

#teamshorthair <3
(since... like 2 weeks ago)

Uh what? You just like glasses. LOL

Ironically, models photographed in glasses are MUCH more likely to have the supermodel-like strong jawline.

Supermodels tend to have that jawline (as I explained to "library") because it's a function of having high cheekbones and cheek hollows.
But, in the case of yr glasses-girls, it's the aesthetic -- a square jaw is more parallel to the glasses frame itself, so it creates a more pleasing overall whole.

In any case, the final result is that you're looking at faces that are a lot closer to "typical supermodel face" than you might think.

[SuitAndTie]

Perhaps. But I've always noticed the girls I go for my friends find average at the very best.

So when do I see an example of YOU in your modelling years?

[Library]

Their bodies aren't sexy but their faces have to look good. That's usually done by makeup and photoshop. Only supermodels have a pretty face with and without makeup.

[redeyemindtricks]

Supermodels have a certain kind of look. Their faces actually tend to have a pretty masculine character in general -- including a REALLY strong jawline.

Here's Alessandra Ambrosio, for instance... you could cut diamond with that jaw
media.vogue.com/.../...uty-alessandra-ambrosio.jpg

[Library]

i remember you told me the same thing about Karlie Kloss. Why do the fashion industries pick supermodels with strong jaw lines?

[redeyemindtricks]

They don't DIRECTLY select for that.

They select for high, prominent cheekbones. If a woman has the right kind of cheekbones, then she'll have the "cheek hollows" -- which, relatively, will make her jaw look more prominent.
The effect increases with age, too. Look at Angelina Jolie now:
i.dailymail.co.uk/.../...lina_Jolie_attends_a_.JPG

Notice her cheekbones and cheek hollows -- and then just use common sense to think about how that affects the look of her jawline.

[Anonymous]

I like the waifish lasses. I quite like thin. Just not super-model thin.

You're bananas if you think that last pic has no sex appeal. Are you serious?
Maybe to girls it doesn't and if that's what you mean then ok. But to guys it definitely does, it's just not purely sexual. Do you think girls smiling and having fun is going to be less attractive? Going to turn us off somehow?

[redeyemindtricks]

I'm a girl. (:

If there's some residual sex appeal to guys, that's even BETTER for marketing!
..:But remember, guys are not the target consumer here.