Stop Worrying About Your Appearance, Because There's Someone for Everyone!

[GoldMeddle]

I'm not some sort of uber-spiritual body positivity preacher. I don't support the fat acceptance movement and I don't believe being fat is healthy. That being said, I also think a lot of people (men and women) have a lot of misconceptions about beauty and what the other gender finds attractive. This MyTake is based on my own experiences as well as other guys' experiences.

I'd say most women and girls believe that this is the ideal body type, and any deviation from it is a "flaw."

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that model is unattractive. However, I also don't find this picture or this model arousing in the slightest. Many other guys would probably agree with me. Other guys would disagree.

Human bodies are, by nature, imperfect. Imperfection is normal and healthy. Some people carry more fat on their waist. Others, on their hips. Some people have crooked teeth. Some have large foreheads. This does not make you unattractive.

Conventionally, these are the features seen in magazines that a lot of women believe are the ideal standard

-flat stomach

-perfect teeth

-smooth, silky skin

-Toned thighs

-small waist

-toned arms

-not too muscular

-long hair

But plenty of guys don't actually find these things attractive. I'm not going to lie, some guys do find flat stomachs attractive. But many guys don't. Personally, I actually like thin women with a bit of fat on their stomachs (a "softer" body type).

I've heard guys say they like large thighs before, as opposed to thigh gaps. Some guys like harder bodies, some guys like softer bodies. Some guys like muscular bodies.

But ultimately, here's the other thing you have to understand. Guys don't really control their arousal and attraction. It is extremely unlikely that a guy will ONLY be attracted to women of a certain body type or look. From my experience, this isn't the case at all. There's plenty of girls I've liked who didn't have all the features I like.

Many guys like Kate Upton, even though she has a slightly thicker waist.

My point with this MyTake isn't to make some grand statement about tolerating everybody or accepting everybody or anything like that. I made this MyTake to point out how the media kind of gives women the wrong idea. Most guys are not looking for perfection, few guys require perfection, and what guys think is "perfect" differs significantly from guy to guy.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be healthy and happy, but don't obsess over looks. What women fail to realize sometimes is this: Yes, guys notice everything even things you don't want them to notice (the same could be said for women admiring guys.) But guys don't CARE that much. Are guys "visual"- yes, we are. But believe me, most guys do not require or want perfection. Many guys don't find Photoshopped models attractive at all, because their features are unnatural.

And every guy likes something different.

Pretty much everything in this MyTake could be applied to women as well. Women do not require perfection. Women have a wide variety of tastes when it comes to men. I just wrote it from a man's perspective because well... I'm a man.

I don't know, hopefully this helps. I see this sort of thing often and I just wanted to clarify some misconceptions.

[redeyemindtricks]

I like how guys never stop to consider that we might have body goals that (gasp!) WE want to achieve.
It's not all about what you guys want, dude. Really... It's not.

What's funniest -- and most ironic -- is when that misunderstanding comes from guys who hit the gym all the time to get big and shredded, even though the vast majority of women DON'T want a guy who's too big or too shredded.

__

Read this take, by the way:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a30952-no-models-aren-t-supposed-to-be-sexy-no-the-fashion-industry

You'll have a better idea of what's going on there. Most women do not actively want to look like models.

[GoldMeddle]

I understand there are other factors, but the mytake was already long and I wanted to keep it brief.

If most women do not actively want to look like models, why do so many women starve themselves? To ignore your body`s wants and needs you have to want something really badly... too badly

Models used to be thicker. Anorexia less prevalent. Models are thinner now, anorexia is more prevalent.

Body goals for men are-be in better shape and be more muscular. Women on the other hand want to be skinny, not healthy. Why is that? What makes women think skinnier is better.

I have witnessed the effects of this firsthand. I was at the beach one time with a girl and she commented on how great another woman's body was. Not in an admiration sense, in a sad and jealous sense.

There is a reason advertisers use models and want that to be connected with their product.

[redeyemindtricks]

"Body goals for men are-be in better shape and be more muscular"

ahah righttttt
... and how many of those men are going about this in ways that are actually "healthy" for the long term?

versus how many of them are going about it with steroids / prohormones / whatever the latest totally un-tested new designer drug is, every time the feds slap the previous ones on schedule III?
yeahhhh
... probably just about the same percentage as the anorexic/bulimic women dude.

I'm not dismissing either problem, but, it's folly to think that men are somehow "more responsible for their health" here. I actually make a pretty big part of my living helping fix the health of middle-aged guys, and a lot of them are guys whose hormones are *still* fucked up -- twenty or thirty years later -- from running a bunch of "supplements" they didn't adequately research in their twenties.

[GoldMeddle]

My point is that, regardless of the methods they use to achieve it, men are striving to get strong and have bigger muscles. Which makes sense, as both are beneficial. It is not beneficial to be too skinny, but women still strive to be very very very skinny. The question is why. It goes against nature. For reproduction, being thicker is actually advantageous while being too skinny can put the baby at risk. What would compel a woman to want to be so skinny and why is it a much bigger problem now?

Also, while some men do resort to those things I'm willing to bet that most men don't. I've seen a range of statistics for how many women suffer from disordered eating, but the numbers I've seen are all above 50%. I guarantee you the numbers for steroid usage are not that high. 50% of men don't use steroids. I can make this guarantee because when I go outside, probably 1 in every 100 guys looks buff enough to have used steroids. So maybe, MAYBE 1% of guys use steroids.

[GoldMeddle]

I'm not saying that men are healthier, but I'm saying the fitness goals men strive for are healthier. Being muscular and strong is healthy. Being weak and frail is not healthy. But the models that a lot of women strive to look like are weak and frail. Why is that?

[redeyemindtricks]

Huh?
LIFETIME prevalence of anorexia nervosa PLUS bulimia nervosa PLUS binge eating is...

... wait for it...

... 5.2 percent.
(0.9 + 1.5 + 2.8)

www.anad.org/.../

This organization ^^ clearly has no vested interest in under-reporting numbers -- in fact, quite the opposite -- so, we can comfortably say those are max values.

Come again, now? How are you getting 50 percent from 5 percent?

You might see some higher numbers for "disordered eating in general", but those are bullshit cooked-up numbers that include waaaayy too much under their umbrella.
I once saw a number around 20-30 percent once, for instance -- but that figure used a definition of "orthorexia" that included **literally everyone who had EVER eaten a fitness-related diet** -- regardless of knowledge or self-control.

__

"It is not beneficial to be too skinny"

^^ Au contraire -- If living for a long time is

[redeyemindtricks]

yr goal, then, low bodyweight and restricted calories are **THE two strongest predictors** of longevity. (Being short helps, too, but that ship had already sailed when you were born... lol)
The longest-lived people in the world are, just about invariably, skinny people who eat calorie-restricted (but NOT semistarvation) diets.

Summary paper of the (considerable) evidence in that field:
https://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/361.full

When it comes to things like coronary heart disease, dude, weight is weight is weight is weight... Yr heart has to pump blood to all of it, whether it's lean weight or fat weight (and in fact, large amounts of lean mass are MORE taxing on the heart, lb for lb).
If you're a big guy -- regardless of whether it's the good big or the bad big -- you're pretty much fucked when it comes to heart health after a certain age. So... live it up, while you can.

[GoldMeddle]

As someone who is too skinny, I can 100% guarantee you it is not beneficial in any way, shape, or form

Some facts about eating disorders:

The rate of development of new cases of eating disorders has been increasing since 1950 (Hudson et al., 2007; Streigel-Moore &Franko, 2003; Wade et al., 2011).
There has been a rise in incidence of anorexia in young women 15-19 in each decade since 1930 (Hoek& van Hoeken, 2003).
The incidence of bulimia in 10-39 year old women TRIPLED between 1988 and 1993 (Hoek& van Hoeken, 2003).
The prevalence of eating disorders is similar among Non-Hispanic Whites, Hispanics, African-Americans, and Asians in the United States, with the exception that anorexia nervosa is more common among Non-Hispanic Whites (Hudson et al., 2007; Wade et al., 2011).

Like I said, the 50% number came from a different website. Even 5%- that means if you lined up 20 women one of them would have some sort of disordered eating.

[GoldMeddle]

As these numbers show eating disorders are becoming more and more of an issue. The question is why? What would compel a person to do something that's so bad for them (not eating, vomiting after they eat) if not an unrealistic beauty standard.

[redeyemindtricks]

"As someone who is too skinny..."

Ectomorph is a good place to start from bruh. Just wait until you're my age... you'll understand.

Bias acknowledged.
(I'm only ≈145lbs after 3 natural childbirths... and I'm 6'2". When I was an editorial model -- back when you were about zero years old -- I averaged out in the low 120's. No disordered eating, I like food too much for that lol... although I do eat literally 5 times as many vegetables as anyone else I know.)

It's ALWAYS better to struggle with putting weight *on* than to struggle with LOSING it. That's... an intelligence test. Not even a question.
And it gets... even more better, the older you get.

[GoldMeddle]

If you were an editorial model couldn't some part of this be wishful thinking? As in, you are hoping that you never damaged a woman's self confidence so you approach this with a viewpoint of "models don't damage women's self confidence." Because you yourself were a model. Just a thought.

Actually, the risk of mortality increases from being underweight and obese, but does not increase when a person is overweight. So being overweight is actually preferable.

People in my family have suffered from eating disorders, and they have a much different stance then you.

I'm not blaming you for making women jealous or unhappy, but that is frequently what happens when women see models in magazines or on TV. Negative motivation is sometimes more effective, at least when it comes to getting people to purchase things. That's why so many insurance commercials depict all these horrible things. Makes people feel scared, but it makes them buy insurance.

[redeyemindtricks]

You can't scare someone into buying couture clothes, tho.

Please check out this take, on this exact thing
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a30952-no-models-aren-t-supposed-to-be-sexy-no-the-fashion-industry

[GoldMeddle]

I read the MyTake. I found the heatmap diagram interesting, but that doesn't prove that women don't feel shitty about themselves when they look at these pictures. That just proves that men don't get sexually aroused from these pictures. The "women aren't going to buy something if it makes them feel shitty and fat" is your opinion. And considering you were an editorial model, biased opinion.

I was making a comparison between the feelings. Feeling unhappy and feeling scared are both negative feelings, as is jealousy.

[GoldMeddle]

I explicitly stated that this belief about what men do or do not find attractive is INcorrect. And that heatmap just goes further to prove that. The heatmap backs up what I said. My argument is that part of the reason women do this to themselves is because they believe men find certain features attractive. Men don't, but women BELIEVE men do. That's only a part of it though.

[redeyemindtricks]

"doesn't prove that women don't feel shitty about themselves when they look at these pictures"

^^ The women who are in the relevant size range don't. That's why they are in the market for the clothes dude!

Plenty of research, but, here's one relevant piece
www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/v35/naacr_vol35_285.pdf

The fashion industry has known all this stuff since the '50's at least... academia is only now catching up.

Slim models *DO* make overweight women feel shitty -- but, as plenty of studies have shown (and as I mentioned as "Reasonable but wrong point #1" in that take), literally ALL models make overweight women feel shitty.

[redeyemindtricks]

from that pdf
"underweight consumers exhibit higher self-esteem after exposure to any models because they feel similar to thin standards and dissimilar to heavy standards, while overweight consumers show lower self-esteem after exposure to any models because they feel similar to heavy standards and dissimilar to thin standards."

... this is pretty darn accurate from what I have seen. (note that the definition of "underweight" in use there is very liberal -- it's like anything below BMI 19, which includes about thirty percent of ALL 21-year-old women and almost *half* of all teenagers)

[redeyemindtricks]

gotta run for now, i'll check this thread later or tmrw

[GoldMeddle]

The problem with all these studies is I can find a study to back up my findings. Nearly any point of view you could have on a subject is backed up by a study.

However, addressing this study- so women look at an underweight model and feel shitty and they look at a larger model and also feel shitty.

Clearly they think the larger model is the outlier then. They wouldn't think that if the other models weren't skinny. They see themselves as being part of the "other" group along with these other models, but what in the first place makes them think this way. If they were only exposed to pictures of normal sized women for their entire life, the average body and appearance of a woman, would they still feel as though they are the outlier? I don't think so.

[GoldMeddle]

It's not preprogrammed in a woman's brain that they should be really skinny. Why would it?

[GoldMeddle]

Weight is not weight. Women and men with an ideal body fat percentage are found to have less health issues overall. Muscle helps with metabolism. The more muscle a person has, the stronger a person's heart will be because the heart has muscles. Excess fat damages the body. Yes, a person with a bigger body will have more blood to pump, but if the heart muscle is stronger it is able to do that. Whereas if the heart muscle isn't stronger and the body is just bigger it is much harder for it to do that.

[Library]

Okay I guess I'lll stop worrying about being too tall.

[aWes0MeNeSs]

I agree with this and have been trying to tell my friends this for many years when they start worrying about not fitting into the stereotype of what the opposite sex is "supposed" to like. I like to think of people as works of art. There is always someone who will appreciate it. Like some people prefer abstract art, others prefer a different kind (sorry, I'm not too familiar on the subject). Everyone has different preferences, and you are beautiful in at least one person's eyes.

[GoldMeddle]

I'm curious. What would you say encourages this stereotype? Would you say models in magazines encourage this stereotype?

[aWes0MeNeSs]

I'm not really sure. I think it's just a stereotype in general, that all men like [fill in the blank] and all women like [fill in the blank]. I think it's been around for years.

[Anonymous]

I do like your take but I don't agree with the title. I actually thought you were going to include the men's side to this as well. As a very short guy I don't have hope for finding a girl to love or marry. If I was average height though I'm sure it would be a different story.

[GoldMeddle]

The title was "slightly" Tweaked by a moderator apparently to give it more oomph (I guess they changed a word and added an exclamation). I mean it to sound more matter of fact, they changed it to sound punchier.

Not being a woman myself I figured I'd give a man's perspective. Also because women tend to worry about this more then men in my experience.

I've seen very short men with very tall women, very short women with very tall men and every variation. If I've seen a very short guy with a normal sized woman and they were married/in a relationship that statement isn't true.

Out of curiosity, how tall are you?

[Saoirse_Nua]

That makes an awful lot of sense to me because I would be reverse to you - I think the first model is gorgeous if she was shown in a non photoshopped picture/

[Fathoms77]

The top picture doesn't appear ideal at all. She looks ill.

[GoldMeddle]

Yeah, but when you look up model that is the result. And there are much skinnier models

[redeyemindtricks]

You guys *did* notice the signature on that photo, right?

"PhotoshopDisasters. com"

You should be able to tell from a single glance that her "body" is not the actual body of a human being.

[Fathoms77]

@redeyemindtricks I know. It couldn't possibly be.

[GoldMeddle]

@redeyemindtricks Yeah, she's photoshopped. But all of the models that came up under "female model" were photoshopped. She wasn't as photoshopped as some of them believe it or not.

[redeyemindtricks]

The two black-and-white Katharine Hamnett ads in this take are *definitely* not photoshopped:
www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a30952-no-models-aren-t-supposed-to-be-sexy-no-the-fashion-industry

__

"... believe it or not"

^^ I was an editorial fashion model. I know what goes on.

[GoldMeddle]

@redeyemindtricks Hang on, I feel like a lot of the points I've made aren't supported with evidence and I haven't done enough research on this. I'm going to read your MyTake more in depth and the next time I'll respond I'll have a more cohesive argument instead of just pulling stuff out of my ass and stuff. I only skimmed the MyTake, so I'm going to look more in depth. It's an interesting topic. I want to figure out my own stance and present solid evidence which so far I haven't been doing. I'll have a better response in a couple days.

[Anonymous]

That top picture is NOT ideal. She has the body of a drag queen lol huge shoulders, boxy man waist and no hips.

[whitelily]

It's true. I never think I am pretty until some guys mention it to me. But hey I got a lot of rejections too -____________-

[Anonymous]

But I worry for me, not for others. -_-