Do you think boys are less intelligent and aren't cut out to be successful in the modern era?
I'm sure many of you have already read about "the end of men" etc. Personally I if you break it down by race/class...its poor and minority boys that are being hardest hit, and blanketly saying that men in general are going down seems kinda missing the point.
But regardless...I hear "mens rights activists" and other conservative advocates like Christian Hoff Sommers argue that schools are geared toward female learning...boys needs are being met..blah.blah...blah...And of course feminists often dismiss and criticize these propositions as they should. But I want to know...then...according to these feminists...(because IKD maybe some feminists do agree there's some issues and that our education system is failing boys, but most are skeptical of that line of thinking). I remember one feminist even lamented that Scandinavian countries..which often have more regulations to ensure gender equality...see HUGE gaps between boys an girls in reading ability. And essentially she said " well, that goes to show what we need in the U.S. its a shame boys can't keep up but we can't hold girl's progress back just for them." I just want to know why a lot of feminists aren't more open? If you believe men, whether its for social, or biological reasons..(I think evidence confirms the lates because there are not ANY societies save maybe islamic ttheocraciesor other nations where women are explicitly held back...where men are even equal with women academically). So why are feminists afraid to call a spade a spade and say it: boys are just stupid. If you debunk any other explanations...why can't you admit the implications? I'm not bitter or angry at feminists and I take no personal insult to the idea. As an individual I've sturggled with anxiety disorders and depression that have taken a tool of me acadmically..but I'm 22 and back in school currently working on an assocaites degree..and that's my life, but maybe by nature of being male I am not as academically cut out as well. That's just the hand nature gave us to play, that's all. It just frustrates me to see people dance around the issue and ignore all the implications.
What's Your Opinion?
Most Helpful Opinion
" I remember one feminist even lamented that Scandinavian countries..which often have more regulations to ensure gender equality...see HUGE gaps between boys an girls in reading ability."
It's true for Norway, Iceland, Sweden and Finland, but not true for Denmark. Denmark one of the most gender equal country too, but their educational gender gaps different from other Scandinavian countries. In reading boys disadvantage is significantly lower than other Scandinavian countries (for example in the last PISA reading in 2009, the gender gap was 48 ponts in Norway, but 29 points in Denmark, which is well below the OECD avarage too). In maths boys advantage in Denmark is one of the highest in the world, this is different from the other Scandinavian countries, where there are no difference or girls perform better. If the gender equality were the reason the large gender gap in reading in the Scandinavian countries, why that is not true for Denmark?
I think because this is not the reason. The reason is the anti-school behaviors of boys, which is everywhere in the developed world, but stronger in some countries (for example in Norway) than other countries. And that's already begin in early childhood, when parents enroll boys in sport and this will be the priority, who are the best in football is the cool person, not who is good at the school.
How can it possible that in the last PIRLS test (which is a reading test for 10 years olds) in England girls read better than boys by 21 points (that means in England boys are a year behind girls in reading skills), but in Italy girls read only 3 ponts better (that is no significant difference)? Morover, England with the 21 points difference has a much larger gender gap than Norway and Sweden (both 14 points). If you see gender gaps in Europe you can see that in Northern and Eastern Europe has a very large gender gap in reading (which favours girls) and almost no gender gap in Math. In Western and Southern Europe there is a not so large gender gap in Maths which favours boys, and not so large gender gap in Reading which favors girls. So I think it's only because of the cultural differences, different attitude to the learning not intelligence. If it was because of the intelligence you can't see so large differences beetween the country groups.
The PIRLS 2011 gender gap (this is an international reading test for 10 year olds):
- countries with the smallest:
Italy: 3 points
France: 5 points
Spain: 5 points
Belgium: 5 points
- (western) countries with the largest:
Australia: 17 points
New Zealand: 20 points
Finland: 21 points
England: 21 points
The difference in England is 6 times as much than Italy. How can it possible so large difference beetween 10 years old English and Italian children?
What Girls Said 11
As far as 'education is geared towards women b-c of emphasis on language'. Men were expected to have command of Latin and ancient Greek, as part of their education way before current university age. Guys went off to school at 14 years old.. While women were cooking and getting raped.. Boys went to school--or were apprenticed. They studied language, philosophy,theology, history, psychology, medicine... All the things that are now considered female domain..
when guys were considered the only 'people' and the only beings capable of commanding knowledge, it seems they had a very eclectic brain. Now that women have the right to education and the power to use their brain in w/e they like. Men have certain strengths ,and women are limited to others.
human beings women/ men have the same basic abilities ad sensuousness. There are varying degrees if difference from person to person. This obsessive _need_ to prove its due to your sex, is not just irrational there's a sort of fanatical zeal to it.
if a person wants to study, they'll study. They will discover what there strengths r. Telling someone you can or can not do something is way more damaging then letting them discover maybe they suck at one thing but are better at another.
Schools offer alt of things that are beneficial. And some things that stunt learning in any child. The fact you have to sit for most of the day when you're in your physical prime is torture and not conducive to optimal learning.
nor is arbitrary lessons that rather than encouraging using your mind and creativity you're limited to w/e yore allowed to think. But you get to be socialized, there's someone in the room you can -hopefully- ask questions to.
people whose parents don't have money for good schools obviously don't get a fair deal in education, expensive school have the flexibility to gear a kids education to the kid. Not the class or the sex. School I-m- should be equal and free- that's another discussion yet not entirely separate.. If everyone had access to good quality education the issue of boys is girls or girls or boys falling behind or jumping ahead would be unnecessary b-c the kid would be getting the attention and freedom to express herself/ himself, that is needed for developing reasoning intuiting analysing empathizing creativity honor dignity etc to her/ his potential. Not to the predetermined potential of their sex.
Imo,pressure when you are so young not just to 'act' this way. but to think you ARE this way-is extremely detrimental and medieval. Its not at al enlightened nor should it be part of an -ostensibly- 'modern society'. Its barbaric. And people still giving ridiculous theories as to why women act this way and men act this way without stopping to consider how much of what they think they perceive is based and their expectations and not an inherent truth that's been discovered for the millionth time right before its struck down as prejudice.
Education is too much Expectation vs too little Reality. I-m-o.
boy's are more logical than girls, boy's tend to think of the best things to do in bad situation, all the top fashion designers are all men, and they're not even homo's, boys made the cars, video games, the best houses, tv-shows and the best movies, girls made... magazines, cheap fashion and cheap show's... I think boy's are genuinely waayyy more high standard than girls, but some girls are as talented as a guy ^_^
I don't think it's because boys are stupid. Study after study has shown we have our own academic strengths. I think it has more to do with that fact that we're in an era of women taking advantage of our newfound equality in school and the workplace. We also know that there is still a hint of sexism when it comes to the highest positions of power, so we have that drive to work harder. Men may simply be taking for granted the priviledges that they've always had. They never had to fight for those.
Well our school system hasn't changed that much. I don't think the problem is that boys are stupid but rather that they lack ambition. Being good in school is often considered uncool more for boys than girls.
Some people believe they lack a positive role model. 60 years ago it easier, boys needed to do well in school and get a good job or go on to University because they were the main breadwinners. If they coudln't do that, they couldn't get married. End of story.That's not true anymore. Women get increasingly more college degrees and higher paying jobs, so if school is uncool and they don't need to get with girls a lot of them tend slack on academics.
Could it be that men aren't less intelligent or less successful, but that women, with the allowance of schooling and gaining of equality, are merely catching up and so the gap is not as extreme?
Male or female it does not matter, some people are smarter than others but generally I think people CAN be smart it's just HOW your taught and if you find that right thing that clicks with you then you can build and build on that with lots of hard work till seem like a total genius haha, yeh... there is no such thing a "genius" those people just spent so much hard work on what they do because they love to do it and they stuck to doing it, there has been equally the amount of great minds in both genders so I think it's quite narrow minded to even debate about which is smartest.
...haha kind of, I went to the city with my brothers(in their late 20's) the other day, one of their friends dropped us off and told us to call when we needed a ride back. Well when we were ready for a ride back my brother said he didn't have his number saved... I said OK well let's start walking to the train (about a mile away). Then both my brother say they don't want to and will just wait where they were standing... for what? He's doesn't know where we are! ... I remembered that he called earlier so I asked my brother to see his phone, I looked in recent calls and there was his number... duhh. lol.
I think it's individualistic. Of course if we mold our boys to be a certain way due to their race, religion, social class, and sexual orientation they'll have a difficult time trying to transition to certain situations, but that isn't to say that they don't have the ability to change the mentality they were told to have.
To some extent, we can change what's expected of us.
Men can be as much of a success as a woman can.
"if you break it down by race/class...its poor and minority boys that are being hardest hit, and blanketly saying that men in general are going down seems kinda missing the point."
YEP that's pretty much what I believe.
As for the latter issue (and I'll get downvotes for this), there is seriously no GOOD science done that suggests boys or girls are INNATELY cut out for certain things and that's just the way things are. The key is understanding how practice can shape our brains (neuroplasticity; nurture becomes nature). Maybe boys are behind in reading because their parents, teachers, and peers encouraged them to do more active, physically engaging activities. Gender roles work both ways; you can't just say, "If women are failing, it's because society is affecting them, but if men are failing, it must be biology." I'm actually kind of surprised that a feminist would say that. I think everyone would benefit from taking a Psych of Gender class, if only it were free...
What Guys Said 11
Girls get better grades because they study harder.Boys are distracted by girls,interest in opposite sex and sports.Lack of father in western families plays a role as boys have no role model and disciplinarian. Asian boys in US do better than white girls but that does not mean they are more intelligent.All important scientific work has been done by white men. Asian and Africans look to the west for solution of their problems like tuberculosis,leprosy ,malaria.They themselves have not developed cure for these diseases. Grades alone do not reflect intelligence but mostly reflect more hours in studies. One student can have a GPA of 2.5 and be more intelligent than someone that is the valedictorian. The valedictorian could very easily be someone that isn't all that intelligent, but rather a person that studies a lot and gains knowledge about certain topics for a certain period of time. While the person with the GPA of 2.5 could be someone that couldn't care less about school because they know that their intelligence will allow them to prosper even with a low HS GPA, going off to a community college, then transferring to a state university before getting in the real world rather than worrying about getting amazing grades in HS.
What I mean when I said that a valedictorian could be someone that just studies a lot and gains knowledge about certain topics for a certain period of time is that they have the ability to do the homework, and do well on test because they learn the subject at that given point in time. Let's just say the subject is accounting and that they learned how to keep a book and excelled in class, but then decided to change their major to something completely different; then you go a head and ask that very same person a couple of years later on how to keep a book, and it's very possible, more than likely probable, that they will have forgotten how to keep a book.
So, like I stated in the beginning. Getting good grades does not equate to ones personal intelligence. Likewise, the lack of caring also does not equate to the lack of intelligence. One could argue that lack of caring can equate to lack of maturity, but definitely not intelligence. I also think the most important thing to take away from this is academia reflects ones knowledge and not their intelligence.
it's bollocks. there is no mismatch in intelligence levels between boys and girls, but due to differing brain chemistry, there's going to be some discrepancy.
For a start, male cognitive development is much more stop-start than female. Women tend to increase in maturity fairly steadily, men tend to mature to a certain level very fast, then stay there for years at a time. So boys are more likely to manage motor skills, reading and writing faster, but girls will continue improving linearly each year, whereas a boy will probably stay at the same level for a few years then make another jump. It's the same with the drive to work, girls are more likely to take school seriously een when it's not a vital stage. Boys will screw around, on average, for most of their time, then as soon as it comes time for major tests, suddenly snap into work-mode. So reports from the intervening years won't take that into account, they can't.
Throughout school, until the last 2-3 years, girls will be higher in just about everything. Then the full spatial reasoning kicks in for guys, and mathematics and especially physics becomes a male-dominated field, just because of the way out brains are wired. You can see that at any University, Engineering, Physics, MAthematics...it's at least 80% men.
The problem is that as a backlash against a long era of male domination, it's now become taboo to claim male superiority in anything, especially when it's published. this isn't me bitching about feminism, or anything else, but it's like saying that men are stronger. It's just true. We are stronger, we are better at 3D reasoning and planning, and that's why we're better at parking cars. Fact. So we hear that schools show worse results for boys, and also get the howls of "Engineering being prejudiced against female students" (something no female engineering student has ever said, it's always the CRAZY sub-group of feminists looking fromt he outside)
but it comes down to the fact that yes, schools will show poorer results for boys than for girls of a similar age, almost certainly. But that's a function of biology, and it's not an indicator of intelligence. As soon as the grades start to REALLY matter, i.e. when it comes to standardised tests? The scores don't show a massive difference.
If guys were less intelligent, engineering wouldn't be a male-dominated field. It's a different kind of smarts; women are far better at anything involving, basically, human empathy, it's why there are more female psychology students or Primary Ed. students. When it comes to spatial reasoning and logic functions, the caveman part of our brain is wired ot be able to do that, whereas in women it just isn't. We're not less intelligent, nor smarter, we're just better at certain things.
How many female Presidents have we had? How many female Governors? Senators? CEO's? This question is ridiculous. I'm a man...and a minority...not to stroke my own ego, but I did very well in college.
Women have their strengths, but they aren't more intelligent than men. I love women a lot. I think that they are beautiful, they smell good, they are caring, and well organzed. But if women are actually smarter than men, than why are they so easily manipulated by bad guys?
Well you bring up two different issues in your post. The first talking about overall gender equality especially as it relates to men. And the second being about academia.
I think most people, especially women have a hard time comprehending the fact that the scale is starting to tip the other way. Men are slowing receiving the short end of the stick but not because of outright oppression as was the case with women. In fact its the opposite. Its because we assume men have so much given to them and born onto them in terms of rights, physical and mental strength, that we disregard their problems as a gender, giving them the proverbial "rub some dirt in it and walk it off" treatment. I've actual read articles suggesting that a large reason for the uprising in violent crime and mass shootings is because of a mental disorder epidemic occurring in men due to our current state of affairs. This is obviously a long subject so I won't go into greater detail but I do feel that our society is forgetting about our men because we give so much focus caring about the needs of women and we're already witnessing the effects of that.
As far as school. I don't think its that men are more stupid. I just don't like academia is designed in such a way as to suit the skill sets and learning style of men. I remember discussing this and reading articles about this in a college psychology class. It's been pretty much proven than boys have a harder time in school because school doesn't fit with the male psyche. Men are risk takers, innovaters, and like to go against the grain. Our school system does not nurture such a personality. It instead praises staying within the box, following direction, giving the teacher exactly as she wants, and memorizing through reading. All skills that women are better than men at. Women are more task oriented which is why they do better in school.
So far all of this isn't too apparent yet in our society (American society at least). But I think at our current pace it won't be more than another 10-20yrs before we really start to see things unravel and its the 1950's all over again but with men taking the beating instead of women.
Boys aren't less intelligent however they are unfortunate in that they enter puberty later than girls.
So girls go through all the horrible changes and insanity by the time they're 14, when nothing important is happening at school.
Boys meanwhile don't usually finish until 16 physically and then mentally adapting to that takes another year or two. This is the absolutely critical time of their education, when all the important tests that will decide their future take place.
So boys have this big disadvantage over girls.
I'm not stupid. In fact, I know this is going to sound pretty arrogant, but I've never met a woman my age that was smarter than me. I think the education system is geared towards women because school is about obedience, following directions, and doing what other people tell you. In the way men are being raised, there is an inner conflict with their natural spontaneous nature, and the systematic way school treats everyone. I think schools do not utilize the natural tendencies of boys in a constructive way, but instead criticize them.
Ridiculous. Girls and Boys have an equal intelligence and equal ability to do well.
Traditionally girls have been held back because academia was considered a mans domain in which they should not compete (especially engineering, science etc). Thankfully that has changed and now women are free to pursue their interests in any field (although are still under-represented in many areas).
If men are falling behind as you say then rather it being any institutional bias that needs to be addressed I would say that it is that boys themselves are too focussed on other things during their teenage years (girls, video-games, sport, being cool) and that testosterone and attitude if not handled correctly can see them go off course (especially under media influence).
Also remember that men still have more opportunity to go into trades than women which can explain (the slight) weighting in favour of women for university graduations in the present age. It has nothing to do with ability only with effort applied and the direction it is applied in. In the exact same manner that when women were under-repressented academically it was nothing to do with ability or intelligence.
Your attitude is just negative man and not very well reasoned.
First: These books, movements, and whatever else think they are uncovering some revolutionary problem in our society. Since when have the lower class people NOT been hit the hardest? I mean sh*t, any joker could predict that yet when someone suddenly writes it in a book, they're scholarly? I should go into the business of making obvious predictions, I'm tired of actually working for a living if I could make money that way instead.
Second: These "prophets" of our society must not actually visit our schools. Both boys and girls go through our school systems, and both boys and girls come out not that much better off. Our school systems are modeled after our society in general- schools give us qualifications on paper, not actual skill or talent with our minds. We teach snippets of everything in hopes that our students will be Renaissance men/women, but this is entirely ineffective for reasons that don't even need to be explained in depth.
There are hundreds of different societal institutions that all have their own framework, culture, and all that. We aren't the least bit consistent in how we raise people to function in society, yet there are apparently books out there that try to attribute it to one tiny little aspect in the grand scheme of things? These people must be as stupid as the people they're preaching on and on about.
It is likely true that our education system is more geared to the average girl then the average boy. This has become increasingly true over time.
Boys seem to have some advantages in spatial reasoning, girls in language. Obviously there are some pretty good male writers and I went to university with some excellent female mathematicians, we're talking population averages though.
I think there are reasons to be concerned about the lack of male role models in schools especially in the primary grades. Most kids will make it to grade 8 having had, perhaps, one male teacher. Some boys - especially in areas where academic achievement is not prized - seem to view school as 'for girls'.
I also think that the average boy and girl, there's some difference in how they are motivated, and schools tend to do a bad job of using motivators that 'work' for boys.