Why are black girls the least desirable?

Why is it that black girls are the most undesirable? (For non-black guys)I'm seeing a lot of negative things being said about black women in the media (mainly online). I even saw a forum thread dedicated to how black girls are the ugliest. Sure there are racist people that will say that other races are ugly, but black girls get the most heat. I've seen a lot of black girls ask similar questions, and people just think we're imagining things. I mean, look at the marriage rates. Black women are the least married race. I've heard people say that even black guys don't want black women.

This issue is causing my already low-self esteem to plummet to uncharted territories, even though I think I'm pretty compared to most black girls but not so pretty according to regular beauty standards (if that makes sense). My school is mostly white, but the few black girls that go there don't have boyfriends, and to me they are pretty and seem intelligent. Boys aren't everything and at our young age it's better to be more concerned with our academic and career goals, but I feel so discouraged when it comes to dating (keep in mind that I live in a predominately white area).

In conclusion, I would like to know what it is about black girls that's so unattractive? (BE HONEST, answer anonymously if you must, and don't feed me any crap about "preferences" because in most cases I find that there is underlying racism behind this so-called racial preferences).

 

What's Your Opinion?

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Most Helpful Opinion

  • What is it about black girls that's so unattractive? I wouldn't know, as I am so hot for a lot black gals I know.

    I do understand what this is all about though... When messing around on HotOrNot, I noticed that great looking black gals who would be an 8 or 9 in my books will tend to score a 6 or 7 (rated by predominately white male audience). There is definitely some difference between how my friends and I view the level of attractiveness for most black women. I see hot white gal, my friends see hot white gal. I see hot black gal, my friends are like, NO.

    Far from holding my head up high as a white man and being uppity about the white race on how we have such high quality women among our ranks and high standards for the women we want to be with, I want to take this opportunity to call my friends out for being the morons they are. To me, it doesn't necessarily show they have great taste in gals by having the hots for women who are almost exclusively white (Asian occasionally), but it definitely shows they are missing out on a lot of great gals... Black gals!

    Black ladies, many you are so very fine in my eyes.

    • Thanks for understanding. Well of course a lot of white men are holding their head up high because all races of guys like white women. The only difference is, white, asian and hispanic men will stand up for their women. Black men, not so much. I'm around asian guys a lot and they always defend asian women even though they know a lot of them prefer white guys.

      I was listening to this guy on youtube and was saying that no one likes black women, not even black men. :(

    • LOL thanks for the compliment. I feel you on the friends thing. I've dated all races (white included) and my friends are cool and agree with how hot a guy is except when it comes to white guys. They say that they don't "prefer" white guys. I prefer a guy that is respectful, funny and cute no matter his color. :-)

What Guys Said 266

  • 7d

    Hello, I am a black guy. No matter what black men say, they love black women and find you attractive, certainly physically. In fact many black men who date white women look for white women with the physical attributes of black women. However, beauty is only skin deep.

    Many black men, including me, can never seemingly find desirable black women with both kind dispositions and physical attractiveness who will give us the time of day. So the attractiveness issue is personality driven. In general, YOUNG black women make very poor choices in men, presumably due to peer pressure to only date highly sought after black athletes. Most of these alpha guys date 5 women at once and are irresponsible. After getting dumped or divorced from the perfect guy, many black women generalize there poor choice by projecting negativity to every black man. When the next nice guy asks you out, he is typically rejected, ignored, or raked over the coals with some insane questionnaire. A segment of black women are cynical and date only for money. Yet another boatload of black women display self hatred by seeking out white men only for skin color or perceived traits associated with color, and ignore the great black guys all around them. Tamron Hall is an example.

    Yet another issue that often arise is the selfish nature of many black women who focus so completely on there education and career. Other groups of women date their men in school and work with them cooperatively towards a future while in school. Black women do not.

  • 28d

    I just goggled, at guess what it took me less than two minutes to find 10 astonishingly beautiful black women.

    Sure they are famous and model quality, but don't say black girls can't be astonishingly beautiful.

    List:
    Jada Pinkett Smith
    Emanuela de Paula
    Kerry Washington
    Jessica White
    Gabrielle Union
    Meagan Good
    Melyssa Ford
    Rihanna 3rd Black Females Alive
    Beyonce Knowles
    Halle Berry

  • 29d

    I don't know about the rest of you white gents out there, but for me the issue was never that black girls were unnatractive or that there was any huge social stigma against me dating one, for me it was just that i never saw it, so i never even considered or looked at women of colour as potential relationship partners. Over time i think that could/possibly had have turned into a strong personal preference towards white girls, but ever since i had moved out of my whitewashed world back home to Ottawa i slowly came around to the idea of interracial dating. Of course, i'm now rounding up on my 1 year anniversary with my Polish/Slovak girlfriend, but if anything happened (god forbid) i don't see myself having a problem dating the right black girl.

  • 48d

    There's one thing that is unattractive about black women and one thing only: STEREOTYPES!!! I will explain some of the facts about black women...

    Most black women have very symmetrical faces and are super duper pretty.

    Many black women have nice development in their thighs and buttocks

    Black women tend to be very kind and sweet, and are usually receptive to men being gentlemen and cute. I did a social experiment, where I blew kisses to random girls. White women were disgusted, and generally black women were flattered

    Race is not just some fun thing to think about like the color shirt you wear that day. It is a big part of our identity. Dating outside our race can be very intimidating and a lot to get used to. Some things that white men often wonder about:

    Could I date a woman with that kind of hair? Will my d*ck be big enough to satisfy? What will my parents and friends think? What will it be like to be with a black woman and a black baby if she gets pregnant?

    • 28d

      and pshhh, black guys are the meanest for their own heritage. I like white guys better. They like natural hair, as when black guys encourage usd to look as white as possible. White guys have PERFECT dicks. Not too big, not too small, and are very not judgmental and are very nice. Sooo, if you are white, trust me, most of us black girls... love white guys. Expecially white guy dicks ;) no worries :)

    • 28d

      This comment was very respectful and true. The steriotypes about us, are mostly wrong. Most of us are super sweet, and are very pretty, and so on, just positive stuff. And also we have the bodies, that most white girls don't have. I'm sorry, I have to be blunt.

    • 28d

      "Will my d*ck be big enough to satisfy?" OMG LOL

  • 1mo

    Because people like those who like, or seem to like, them. Most white guys have the same problem that most black women on here have: they believe that the other isn't interested. If you show a white guy (or any guy of any race) that you're interested, then, if he's attracted, he will ask. Now, it might take longer for him to get the hint than it would for a black guy, and you may have to be more direct, because for a while he might believe that it's all in his head and you're just being nice, but he should eventually get it.

    • 28d

      Ohhhh, you just made my life wayyyy easier. WOW. That makes sense.

  • 1mo

    BEST ANSWER YET HERE!!!

    YOU CAN HAVE ANY KIND OF GUY YOU WANT DESIRE YOU. ILL KEEP THIS SIMPLE. CERTAIN SKIN TONES ARE CONSIDERED SEXIER. DARKER BLACK IS CONSIDERED SLIGHTLY MASCULINE BUT doesn't MEAN YOU can't BE SEXY. YOU HAVE TO MAXIMIZE IT. by the way SUPER PALE WHITE SKIN IS LESS SEXY THAN TANNED. BUT PALE WHITE CAN STILL BE VERY SEXY TO. IT STARTS WITH TAKING CARE OF YOURSELF AND YOUR BODY. JUST BOUT ALL GUYS PREFER VICTORIA SECRET MODEL BODY TYPES REGARDLESS OF WHAT THEY SAY! I HAVE SEVERAL BLACK FEMALE FRIENDS WHO DATE ONLY WHITE MUSCULAR GUYS. ONE STARTED OFF AT 5'4 200 LBS BUT WORKED HER WAY TO 117LBS, DRESSES MODEL LIKE, TALKS AND ACTS FRIENDLY, FUN, CONFIDENT WITH A HINT OF VALLEY GIRL TO HER STYLE LOL. IF YOUR INTERESTED IN WHITE GUYS ITS ALSO GOOD TO GET TO KNOW MID-LATE 90'S ALTERNATIVE ROCK. CLEA AN OLD FRIEND WHO IS MEDIUM BLACK SKIN BUT ALSO THIN/MUSCULAR/SEXY AND SHE WORKS AT IT WITH DIET/CARDIO/WEIGHTS SAID SHE STARTED TO GET TO KNOW MID/LATE 90'S TO MID 2000'S ROCK JUST TO HAVE IT IN COMMON WITH WHITE GUYS. SHE SOON FELL IN LOVE WITH IT ANYWAYS DUE TO ITS FUN RYTHYMS AND INNOVATIVE ROMANTIC POETRY. ALL MY HOT BLACK FEMALE FRIENDS CARRY THEMSELVES FRIENDLY, FEMININE, SEXY AND THEY DATE WHOEVER THEY WANT. WHETHER THEY ARE LIGHTSKINNED OR MEDIUM DARKER TONED. IT SEEMS TO ACTUALLY HELP THEM BEING BLACK. MAKES THEM UNIQUE THAT THEY ARE THIN/POLITE/SEXY BEING BLACK INSTEAD OF ACTING TOUGH AND BADASS. WHILE I ADMIT THE LIGHTER TONES ARE A LITTLE SEXIER, MOST GUYS WILL TELL YOU THE DARKER TONES ARE FINE AS WELL AS LONG AS ALL EVERYTHING ELSE IS FEMININE/FUN/POLITE. I KNOW SOME WILL SAY ITS WRONG TELLING GIRLS THIN IS MOST ATTRACTIVE BUT ITS FACT. ALL THIN GIRLS I KNOW, SOME THIN GIRLS ARE LUCKY AND DONT HAVE TO WORK AT IT BUT MOST OF THEM I KNOW WORK VERY HARD AT IT WITH STRICT HEALTHY DIET AND EXERCISE. TO THE ORIGINAL POSTER, YOU STRIKE ME AS SOMEBODY WHO DONT MIND WORKING AT SOMETHING. GOOD LUCK

  • 1mo

    because of all the stigma that society has put on them. the social media makes them see like they are nothing but walking time bombs.

  • 2mo

    I think all girls are desirable no matter what race. It shouldn't really matter. People like what you described are ignorant. This issue shouldn't bother you and you should be confident. It's not about what people say, it is you. Black girls, white girls, hispanic, Asian all have beauty. I say this for all girls.

  • 2mo

    Coming from a white guy that has lived in a majority black neighborhood his entire life, I see the white and black side of the world. Black women are not undesirable from a stance of physical attributes. Your typical professional white male will find the majority of black females undesirable because of the way most, not all, black females carry the "ghetto" way of life. This is very unattractive to men, black, white, Hispanic, it doesn't matter what the race is. A black woman that carries herself physically and mentally in a mature manner is very attractive. I know a few black women that are like this and they are very beautiful. The best thing about black women compared to white women is that they are very strong and independent, unlike most white women today. Personally, I would prefer a black woman today because of those qualities, I don't want a weak whiney woman that cannot take care of herself. I really don't understand why black males want white women, they are too much of a headache. I have noticed in the last 10-15 years, black woman have been making great strides to improve their physical appearance and it shows. They need to now focus on their mental appearance and shed the mindset of the ways of life they grew up in. Again, this is for the majority, there are a number of black women out there that choose not to act "ghetto" but they are few and far between. Black women and white men together in a relationship I think will lead to a very strong relationship in many ways. Both of which are career oriented and think along the lines of reason. White women and black men seem to derive most of there thought emotionally and "off the cuff" so to speak. Black women also need to show more desire in white men if that is what they want, at this time most respectful white men aren't actively open to the idea of having a black woman as there partner, but they can be persuaded. Hope this helps.

    • 1mo

      The issue with your comment is that you feel that black women need to change to be found attractive where all other races of women can just be who they are and found to be attractive. Also, not all black women are the nor are most "ghetto" (the term ghetto is stupid in and of itself due to the fact that living in the ghetto does not define a persons personality or is a character trait. I'm trying really hard to not make any assumptions of your intelligence based on your using that word only because its a commonly used phrase used by ignorant people and it wouldn't be fair to fault you for that specifically). My main point is that while I appreciate your appreciation of black women, I completely disagree with your idea that black women need to go through a metamorphosis to be found attractive. Black women haven't changed. People are just realizing how special they always were. I am especially confused about your point "improve their physical appearance". What does that even mean?

  • 2mo

    I have a thing for white girls specifically. It's just my preference. Indian/asian/black I do not find desirable for a relationship. If you ask me why, I have no earthly idea. I am middle eastern btw.

  • 2mo

    They aren't. Black people are the most negatively stereotyped in history. Black women need to stop buying into the negative stereotyping and just be themselves. Black children are born everyday in the world so That means that someone must be attracted to them Now even though I attract other races of women, I don't get worried if I'm attracting them or not, nor do I go out my way to date a particular race. Color doesn't matter to me.If I meet a woman that I like and we click and she happens to be black, Latino, white, etc, then so be it.

  • 2mo

    Let me start out by saying that I'm a mutt of mostly Western European and Hispanic, and I find black girls attractive, and I've had 2 black girlfriends.

    Anyway, my explanation for why some non-blacks view black women as "less desirable" would be because they perceive the following to be true:

    - A large percentage of blacks, and thus black women, are "ghetto." While there are more whites who are poor and "trashy/ghetto" than blacks in the US, the RATIO of ghetto to non-ghetto is far higher among blacks than any other demographic (because there are far more whites than blacks in the US). They don't like "ghetto" anything, and blacks are more likely to be that way.

    - Part of the "ghetto" issue is that promiscuity is far higher in such cultures, which is a negative to people who didn't grow up with ghetto values.

    - Many people grew up in very homogeneous neighborhoods, and so they aren't used to being around blacks, or anyone very different from their own race. Thus, their standards of beauty reflect what they are most familiar and comfortable with. Dark skin, kinky hair, and exaggerated curves seem out of place to them, simply because they aren't used to it. Similarly, a white American will look very out of place in Japan, for the same reason (very homogeneous).

    - Many whites are afraid that if they try to date black women, black men will get angry and become violent with them, which does sometimes happen.

    - Black culture can be quite different from white culture, and many people may think they just won't have enough in common to date. They may not date others who have/maintain a strong, separate culture either.

    - Some are simply racist.

    You'll never win over everyone, but IMO, if you present yourself as a person of respect and integrity, and let people get to know your personality, I think you'll overcome most of the people who initially are skeptical or wary.

    • 2mo

      There's a lot of truth in this answer, I think. I really like that you avoid to over-generalize.

  • 2mo

    Heck no! I like black girls!

  • 2mo

    I'm a guy and I don't know why but I just hate black girls. Would you prefer to have white walls in your house or its needs to be black? White is kind of preferable, attractive compare to black. Black people = Nature gave you the best colour available. make up looks ugly on black chicks. Horrible hair style. Huge ass... its good to fuck but I can't imagine myself sleeping next to that giant bubble ass everyday.Its something natural, they just don't turn me (or any white guys ON) - that's as simple as that. I can stare at any cute white/Asian chicks for hours but can't stand black girls. No offence, but Its like you prefer to have chocolates over celery. This is how it is, something that evolves in our genes, it just comes up for no reason. Black girls = fat, ugly, unhygienic, loud mouth, stupid, always fighting, ghetto type - that's what they show in media, right.. over the time, these things builds up and I have no idea why but i would prefer to go to a brothel and pay 100 to fuck a white chick rather having ding dong with a black for free. You mix different colors to make white - same goes with white chicks, they are beautiful, attractive, friendly, talkative, has inner beauty... Black chicks - loud mouth, aggressive, weird, No need make up..

    • 28d

      ahahaha wow

    • 1mo

      i read your comment and i all could think of was ignorance, you sound just like how the stereotypical society would like you to think, not all black women are like that and not all white women are how you perceive them to be. You shouldn't live life thinking like that, it shouldn't matter what skin colour or hair texture someone may have, like them for who they are. Continue living life like that you could hold back on meeting great people, in this world you never know who anyone could be, that same black girl you think is ghetto could be the doctor saving you or any of your friends/ family's life

    • 2mo

      That was... very very VERY biased... It's not even funny. I can't even laugh at this. Don't even tell me,"It's my opinion." No. You literally tried comparing skin color to a wall. No, white women aren't white. They're peach color, most of the time. Having peach colored walls look ugly. No black women are not black, they're brown. I like brown colors and the shades. You compared two things without even considering the good side and bad side of them both. Black women. Fat? Mostly curvy. Loud Mouth? In the ghetto. Stupid? Don't get me started. White women. Beautiful? Have you seen the south. Friendly? Have you seen mean girls? Inner Beauty? If they had that, they wouldn't be starving themselves. If you like white women and not black women, fine by me, but don't come in here and act like what you say is fact because it isn't. I don't know if you know, but there's a thing called Google. Look up "Beautiful black women." Then "Ugly white women" Then Vice Versa.

  • 2mo

    I'm white, but the complaint among black guys seems to be they think black girls have too much attitude.

    "Boys aren't everything and at our young age it's better to be more concerned with our academic and career goals, but I feel so discouraged when it comes to dating."

    No offense, but if you're 25 or older, as a woman, wouldn't it be best to make dating your priority? Because after a certain age, like 28, 30, guys don't date women their own age.

    And as far as white guys dating black girls goes, in the USA--there's a few very simple reasons why it doesn't happen. (I do believe it's the least common interracial pairing.

    1. Most black girls just aren't attractive to white guys, compared to the girls of our own race.

    2. In the USA, there's a whole "white men oppress blacks and black women" thing going that discourages it.

    3. Ghetto attitude and WTF is with how so many black girls have this certain ghetto type accent?

    4. Yep, there's an element of racism. And who wants to deal with a whole nother culture like that?

    1. Black girl

    • 28d

      Yeah, and most black women are sweet, nice, and are very educated and smart. I think it depends on what area you are located in.

  • 2mo

    I just don't find the physical attributes of black women attractive. The hair, nose, and hips, for example. I prefer tall skinny girls with straight long hair, thin lips, and pointy nose. That's just me and everyone's different.

  • Honestly, I am speaking with all honesty here and I know this might come off as racist but...

    the ones who really find black women undesirable, are many black men.

    Black men, influenced by Kanye West, Snoop Dogg and other famous, influential black men have taken their influence and decided to discard even the most beautiful black women in favor of any white girl they can get their hands on, they see having a black girl with them as something to bring them down, while a white girl is meant to show that they're a "real man"

    Personally I'm a white guy, I have pale skin, my hair shines blonde when in the sun but usually it looks brown, my eyes are a really light shade of blue and I LOVE black girls, when I see a black girl at the night club, I can barely keep my eyes off her, and when I might be confident while talking to an Asian or white girl, my knees get weak and I start stuttering when talking to a black girl.

    Anyway, the only ones who willfully disregard black women and say black women are ugly are black MEN, us non-black men... either we think you're attractive or we don't, that all comes down to preference, we hold no animosity to you, the vast majority of us wouldn't join a forum just to call black girls ugly, if you're a nice girl, with a nice smile and a healthy body, you'll have white, asian, Indian etc... all kinds of guys clambering over each-other just to be with you, while black men are off chasing some overweight white girl.

    • 28d

      awwwwwwwwwww :)

    • 2mo

      Simply going to say this is very true.

  • It has A LOT to do with the media and what "white" America wants to see. White women are OFTEN on TV and viewed as the most beautiful, yet no one wants to see the "mixed" America for what it is. ALL women are beautiful and men just have a one tracked mind; what they see on TV is apparently what they like. Media often depicts the majority of black women as loud and obnoxious, when that is purely untrue. A BIG part of it is racist and part of it is what the media wants us to see. I always say never judge a book by its cover and just because you see one African-American woman act a certain horrible way you should not be that shallow and hateful to put every one in that category.

    Everyone has a preference that's understandable, but there is a difference between that and just being ignorant. All these reviews about IQ, black women being ugly without addressing the TRUE matter at hand is racist. God has a special place for those people. He loves us all equally, why can't we do the same? Thank You

    • 2mo

      Actually, no, not all women are beautiful, just as all men are not good looking. Beauty by definition means above average in looks.

  • They're not the least attractive. But you're talking about a predominantly white nation having a preference towards predominantly white women.

    It's interesting all the generalizations about black women. A lot of such generalization, like the attitude or the weight, come from how black Americans are socialized by each other and the media. They are still recovering from a past so traumatic is sends ripples through the entire race.

    But it's rather ironic to generalize blacks: Nearly all of the genetic variety in the human species is in Africa and in blacks around the world. Europe, for instance, is the most genetically-homogeneous continent on the planet. The Germanic nations even more so.

    So you can expect that white people would have a preference for white features. And TBH, the stereotypical black woman (Loud-mouthed, KFC-eating, finger-waving, generously-sized woman.) repulses me to no end. But since when were all black women like that?

    Here are some women I find quite attractive:

    Aisha Tyler:

    link

    Halle Berry:

    link

    Michelle Obama:

    Not as much physically, but I think she's awesome.

    Esperanza Spalding:

    link

    To finish it off, I have a question for women, then. What do WOMEN have against Asian men? Asian men seem to be viewed as the least desirable men.

    I've heard enough times "How did that Asian guy end up with a white girl? Like THAT can ever happen." To which I reply "Okay, sure...but they get Asian women!"

    • 28d

      Asian men are super sexy, it's just that most of them cannot date outside of their race because of their heritage, so I just assume he's unavailable. It's hard for me to find an Asian boyfriend, and believe me... I want one!

    • 2mo

      I PERSONALLY DO NOT have a problem with Asian men. In fact, I am absolutely crazy for them!!! From personal experiences, I have been ridiculed for obsessing with Asian men, from women of different backgrounds. Basically, the stereotypes fall into place. It's sickening... It's from the same women that say, "Men don't like me because I'm too fat, I'm too ugly..." But you just did the same external thinking to that Asian man that could have been amazing, etc. I don't get it. I want my future husband to be Asian, I don't want to talk a lot, but my heart is in Korea; both North and South and I plan I marrying someone from there too <3

  • No guy I personally know has ever called a black girl ugly. In fact, the only comments I've heard have been positive. I think most non-black guys steer clear of black girls by default, not because of any reason. I think it's just a cultural divide. I live in London, England, by the way. And I'm half white, half east Asian.

    I judge women as individuals. I have my preferences, and if a girl meets those preferences, then I want her. Skin color is way down the list of my preferences. Actually, I'm not even sure I do have a preference when it comes to color. I've actually never interacted at length with a black girl (again I think it's the cultural divide), even though I live in a city that is 13.3% black and 2.3% part-black.

    All that said, these are huge generalizations, but these are some things positive and negative I've noticed about black girls. Some of these positive things may explain why some guys prefer black girls. Some of these negative things may explain why some guys prefer non-black girls. Positive: big butt; big boobs; know how to dance; age well; look good without make-up; loyal to their men. Negative: overly assertive (which can be both irritating and intimidating); they're used to macho male culture (which many non-black guys can't fulfil); more likely to be religious or devoutly religious (a negative for me, as I'm an atheist); approach guys, especially non-black guys, even less than white girls do.

  • Wow, some of these comments are incredibly hurtful or even downright racist. And some of the entitled girls here who don't have to deal with this bullsh*t are accusing you of making this up when it is a very real problem.

    You are right, on average, men are less willing to date a Black woman. Women are also less willing to date an Asian man (I'm an Asian man). One way to see this is the interracial marriage data gathered in the last census show that there are way more Black men / Asian women in interracial marriages than their opposite sex counterparts. But I think a lot of it is a result of negative stereotypes perpetuated by society, mainly media. Black women are commonly portrayed as loud, attitude-y, uneducated, and overall masculine. Asian men are commonly portrayed as nerdy, weak, bad with women, submissive, and overall feminine. It's fine to have preference but it's not okay to be like "I don't date Black girls," that's called being racist. There are obviously differences on average, mainly in physical appearance. But they are not different enough to justify completely discounting an entire race of women. For instance, you can't say you don't like Black girls at all just because a lot of them are obese. A lot does not mean all. And like you said, many of these preferences are racist ideas people got from the media.

    Speaking of physical differences, I am actually an Asian man that has a preference for Black women. Here is what I (generally) find physically attractive about them. Black girls...

    -look good without makeup. This is like the biggest thing; it's always shocking how much more attractive White and especially Asian women can look with the right makeup. If all girls looked as they do when waking up (without makeup), I think more people would see the beauty in Black women. It's nice when your woman looks good all the time, not just with her makeup on.

    -have big beautiful lips

    -have beautiful eyes

    -are curvy and thick. I'm not a fan of skinny girls. I don't like belly fat and I'm not a chubby chaser, I just like fat in the right places.

    -have proportionally longer legs

    -have beautiful skin tone (I like dark skin)

    I hope this helps.

  • Also the black race like to blame white people for all their problems and live in a state of false victimization where, whether overtly or subconsciously, they blame white people for all their short comings when it couldn't be further from the truth. Last thing I want, a white man who believes everyone should be treated equally, not where blacks get affirmative action or women rape men in divorce court but where true merit is what dictates your life. Unfortunately, blacks are the spear head of the left wing socialist/liberal movement because without affirmative action they will always fall behind whites and the other races and they know it. Look at the bell curves of blacks IQ they have an average IQ of a semi-mentally retarded white person. So blacks say the IQ test is racist some how and that is why their scores are low, meanwhile every other race do better and feel it has nothing to do with race (the IQ test). It is living in this victimization world that really makes me not want to date black women on top of the other reasons I gave.

    • 29d

      Who invited the Tea-party rep here? lol

  • Google that: "black women are the most beautiful "and then you will find good opinions about women. I'm a white guy and I don't find white girls attractive as much as black. I really like what Big Dre said. My lovely girlfriend has so much warmth in her! She was born in Africa and I'm from cold Poland. I love my Safyia!

  • It's not discriminatory or racist, no matter how much you want it to be. It's about personal preferrence.

    • it is not personal preference when you're saying entire races are uglier than others come on...that is racist. a preference would be "I prefer redheads, but I can still see the beauty in other women," that is a preference, but saying entire races, given all of their diversity, are ugly is racist.

  • I know this is an old post but people are still finding and reading it so here:

    Black women are some of the most desirable women in the world. That is why we have been mixed with so many races, French, Spanish, Dutch, etc. Why did so many Slave Masters visit the black woman's coveted vagina? Even in her raw beauty of uncombed hair and ragged cloths made from hemp men of all races found her irresistible. Just take a look at history, not His -Story.

    Did white mother raise her little white children? No sir, guess who raise her little white babies? Mamie. You want to know why? Not only was the black woman most desirable for her beauty and sexuality but she was also thought to be better suited as mother to young offspring's of little white children. I could go on and on but I don't have the time. I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hate but just look at history, it tells it's own story. No hot irons, no make up, in some cases not even a bath! so how did some of us get light and damn near white is she is so undesirable.

    It's a part of mental slavery and mental bondage that we need to break away from and recognize the black woman for everything she was, everything she is, and everything she will be. Big Dre

  • Guys, like girls, have their individual ideas of what they find attractive in the opposite sex. As for me, being a Black man, I have dated Black women and can honestly say that the stereotype of Black women being "ghetto fabulous" is not true. Yes there are some who fit the criteria, but I know it doesn't fit the mold for the women I dated. When I was dating black women, I tend to go for the light skinned educated Black woman. Unfortunately, many other Black men seem to go after these type of Black women as well (light skinned.) Many of the Black women I dated often knew this and it created a "diva" like mentality and they often milked it for what it was worth. Once I realized that dating this type of woman was more about how much you were willing to spend on them and not about the romance, I decided to expand my dating pool to other races. I dated White, Hispanic and Asian women, all which have their own set of positives and negatives. I also know that people think Black women have attitudes and other women don't. Let me educate you guys on a little something. If you piss off any woman, she will make it known she is unhappy, though some Black women tend to be a little louder, more confrontational and combative when doing it. Point is all women, and men have attitude. Its part of our personality traits. It just may take a little more to set some of us off than others, but its there.

    When I started dating other women besides Black, I found that I saw physical facial features I love in each ethnic group. Don't get me wrong, I think each ethnicity has beautiful women within it, but for the features I was drawn more, led me to lean more toward foreign ethnic women, mostly Asian and Hispanic.

    As I see it, with all I have learned I decided that if all women can possess attitude, I wanted to go for the woman who possessed the most facial features I am attracted to. I tend to love women who don't require or use excessive make-up, don't wear contacts to change the color of their eyes, wear their own natural nails instead of the cosmetic nails and wear their own natural hair, instead of weaves.

    My best friend, who is also my girlfriend, now fiancée and soon to be wife is Asian and I would ever consider dating anyone else as she completes me. not only does she possess the facial features I love, but our personalities are so close to each other naturally, that we seldom have disagreements.

    The bottom line is, since there is beauty in everyone, you need to seek out what makes you look and feel most beautiful about yourself. Once you find that, your esteem will rise and that will resonate to those around you. You can't expect for others to find you beautiful if you have low self esteem. Find what makes you happy and let that be your baseline. It will also help you find out who is most important to you because those who don't like it won't like you any better or worse and those who do will be more than glad to be around and court you

  • I can see you've opened Pandora's box here, so all the haters can go over the stereotyping again. I live in Sweden (as white as it gets I suppose) so I can't really speak to any American cultural factors. The black and brown (if I can include them) population here stem mainly from eastern African and southern Indian immigrants. They come in all sizes and shapes, the overweight ones attract me as little as overweight white girls do, but fit black girls are usually a joy to watch and behave just fine in my experience. Not that into the big booty thing, but love me some color. Make the question about general demand and there's room for discussion, but the term "most undesirable" is a qualitative assertion that doesn't really help.

  • Omg lol isn't it obvious. This is obviously a white girl who's lashing out at black girls because her WHITE boyfriend left her for a black girl or either her crush is crushing on a black girl. At first you sounded like a curious white girl but then you changed your tone lmao, what black girl would that low about them selves. I'm a guy and I'm sexy as f*** and white girls love me ...but I'm gay the white guys flock too but I'm more interested in blacks and Mexicans because we're more real. Sorry that's the way I feel.. but honestly at the end of the goshdang day people are going to be attracted to whoever even if they don't act on it. That's just the way it is. :/

  • I love black girls...They are typically built the best of all races and they are awesome in the bed...I'm white

    • 2mo

      Smdh, every comment I see about black women is for the majority, complimenting their sexuality. I mean not saying this is a bad thing, but...

    • lol

  • people date who they're comfortable with.i've never dated a black girl.in fact I've always dated white women and that's what I'm attracted to.blondes.blonde hair,soft looking white skin.a lot of white guys are this way./and preference is NOT the same as racism.fools who claim that are just that..fools.i have nothing against black people ,male or female either one.but the groups I always hung with were white like myself.and by the way,current research ahows that even with interracial dating being more acceptable than it was 20 years ago,that most people still hang with their own,so to speak.most whites still hang with and date whites,blacks hang with and date blacks,etc..the media however,intentionally decieves people into believing that it's much much more common and almost predominantly that way..it's a misconception among many for that reason.and don't forget this most important factor..most people date other people that are within their comfort zone.this is why white dates white,black dates black,etc(mostly)/ let me put this in caps ..PEOPLE DON'T DATE TO BE DIVERSE..that's not the reason most people date.so anyone that says stuff like "people that only date within their own race are narow minded or racist" remember to tell them that most people don't date to be diverse! those that do aren't as interested in dating as they are in being part of a diverse crowd.let me repeat that>>most people DO NOT date for the reason of being diverse .since I've never dated anyone but white,i'd feel a tad bit awkward or shy dating a non white girl and I don't want that kind of feeling while on a date..i'm used to white girls..so that's what I date and that's what I'm attracted to so...

    • 2mo

      I do honestly understand what you are saying. Everyone has standards. However the reason people stay away from black women is because the are some how afraid. I won't bite your head off. The reason you'd feel awkward is because you'd make it awkward for yourself. I personally think that white guys just don't like minorities in general or they just feel awkward around them. Just because you are black does not mean you're ghetto. Just because you are chinese does not mean you go around saying ching chong ming mong. Just because you are indian does not mean you only eat curry. I could go on and on but I'm tired.

      Buenas Noche :)

  • Don't pay attention to the "sewer rat" forums where the participants dis people. That is a favorite sport of the insecure immature and everyone knows it.

    I am a white man and I think that it is mostly a peer pressure thing to overlook black girls. In any group of white guys I've been in, it seems that there are one or two that are rather racist and they always seem to be vocal and at least marginally bullying about it. They make it unpleasant enough that it seems not worth it to consider to "cross the color line." Then, there is the potential problem with her friends and relatives.

    Black guys seem to hang together and have their own "culture" of speech, music and so on. It is difficult for any young man today to get a career going, or even a decent job. (I have two sons. The oldest at 26 is just starting to get somewhere.) More so for black guys. Many seem to have little or no prospect to support a woman and children.

    Some obviously prefer white women, their boldness giving them an advantage with lonely women. I honestly suspect that part of that stems from a desire to "get back at whitey." But, one thing is certain, mixed race people tend to be special people, and if we all mixed races, we would all be a brown, happier bunch of people: no racism!

    The black girl who tries to engage another person even once per day over some sort of "current event" (something of interest that just happened), or anything else that might be of common interest, will find her life changing for the better, slowly at first. I doesn't matter who the other person is, but include a boy or white person once in a while. Don't do too much smiling at first.

    Also, some boys are not really at home approaching girls, as is well known. I didn't marry until I was 39. So, it all adds up to difficulty unless you have that special gift at hooking up with someone. Don't forget that many of the people that you see so easily getting married ... that's the beginning of their problems.

    There are plenty of white girls and women who are not attractive. That's why one who is gets so much attention. It's the same with black girls, from what I can see. I've seen some that it was hard not to stare. But, that's the part that's only for looks. A woman should not want a guy who considers looks too heavily, Being that shallow, when he finds one he thinks he likes better, he'll leave, marriage or not.

    I never went against the grain of my own personality makeup. They say, 'Be yourself.' But, sometimes, you have to "be someone else," you have to change and start joining groups, learning how to speak at Toastmasters, learning how to dance, etc., even if it's more "work" than you really want to do. You can do these things without "putting your head on the chopping block," so to speak. And, you don't need to be Sanaa Lathan, either. (Check out her movie, "Something New" if you can.)

  • Okay, so I would like to think that I am a pretty open guy, and I have found a lot of black women that I am attracted to, and a lot that I'm not attracted to, same with all the races.

    The reason for black women to be the least desirable is because of the history and past racism of and towards the black community. Whether we like it or not, deny it or accept it, there will always be racism... past generations were not as open as we are today because for fear of how they may be viewed (which count for a lot back then) but times has changed and we are more open to... "variety" and a lot has to do with influence, I see a lot of answers claiming that black girls are fat, and loud and the list goes on, but they grow up around people like that or who react the same way to certain situations so that's what they are used to but other races would be vibrantly different, I've seen plenty of black girls who are cute and shy, and fit... so it's really a clashing culture of communities, what may be acceptable in one community might not fly with another, and we all have our views of "proper" behavior.

    The media spits out an image of beauty so products would sell and apparently our society eats it up and the result is some of the most unattractive women I've ever seen.. for me personally the most unattractive women out there are the ones trying to be something they are not so they can fit in or because of something they saw on TV or whatever the case it's just over done and over used and in denial *shivers*

    but "Beauty" is really in the eye of the beholder and I've behold some pretty freaking gorgeous black women, and some really unattractive ones whose behavior are just improper by my standards.. but just remember no race is a whole... there are fugly White women, and omg wtf is that!? Spanish women, and don't come near me Asian women.. but needless to say there are extremely beautiful women of them all as well

    in the end it's just that since you go to school in an area with mostly white guys, it's really just a clash of culture and residue of history... just be real, and love truly, and even the most beautiful girl in your school can't compare

  • Hello Dear!

    Color of skin is just melatonin accumulated due to external conditions. we are all just humans on planet earth. Our genetical make up is identical and so it is our source.

    Furthermore no race is pure. According to geneticists Greenlanders are the purest in the planet, and they have had many mixes as well.

    We are all racially mixed humans with a small minority of other components. Having said this beauty is in the eyes of the beholder and granted we need to avoid the manipulated media that distorts that beauty, photoshops it and makes everyone that allows it feel that it is never enough and improper or unattractive, too fat, too old, to short, too white, too dark, etc etc.

    If you agree/feel the same way, then do not support it, read it watch it.

    Be yourself, I am sure you are beautiful and there are many out there that will consider that too. Love and be yourself the rest will happen organically. Maybe you just live in the wrong area, consider moving out of there. Blessings, love and light fellow human. I love the divinity in you. Cheers, Leo

  • Okay, I have been "with" many many black girls, and I find them to be really beautiful and fun to be with as long as everything is going well.

    Then when something goes wrong, or they don't get what they want, or they feel somehow disrespected, they go crazy. Now I don't mean crazy like yelling and telling you off and walking away, no they want to try to Pysically hurt you, and they sometimes turn into unhinged rage monsters.

    If you want respect, you must give respect, Right ?

    I've been with the most beautiful girls and it's all good until somekind of competition comes along...another pretty girl...next thing you know she wants to kick off her 6" heels and brawl !

    I can deal with loud and dopey ... saying the wrong things... yes , but these girls need to realize that no matter what happens you still need to act like a lady. That is going to send the loudest alarm as to what kind of person you are. Noone wants a Psycho time-bomb. As far as fat... I like a full-figure...but not a cow, that's a turn off. So sorry if you haven't found someone, Everyone deserves to be happy. As long as you act like yourself you'll be fine. Good luck to you.

    Ciao...Anthony

  • I can rank what I find to turn me off about black women:

    1. Attitude (Loud, annoying, rude)

    2. Hair (I know you can't do anything about it, but it just turns me off, I like straight hair.)

    3. Facial features (Regardless of attitude and hair, I find a lot of black women to have unattactive facial features, very wide noses, enormeous mouths, oversized lips, etc.)

    4. And the fact that 80% of black women are obese doesn't help the case, makes 80% of black women automatically not desirable.

    5. Eyes (I find completely black eyes to be rather boring, but not exactly a turn off, but not as turn on as e.g. blue/green/hazel eyes. But there are black women with lighter brown eyes, which can be attractive.)

    I know three of these are genetical, and can't be done anything about, but the main factor is the attitude.

    If a black woman acts "white," has NICELY straightened hair, good facial features (not enormeous mouths and teeth), is not morbidly obese and has lighter eyes, she could very well be my dream woman, the perfect 10.

    So I'm not by any means racist, if a black woman fullfils beforementioned criterias she can be extremely attractive, it's just that only a very small portion does.

    PS. I'm European, and where I live there are not a lot of black women, so part of my attraction to black women could be credited to the fact that black women are rather exotic to me, and that's a huge turn on. But if I were to live around black girls for an extended period, this exotic feel would probably go away, I don't know.

    But to those of you blaming it on the media, when I went to the US, I actually had higher expectations of black women from the media than I found to be true. So I don't think the media portrays black women as ugly, rather the opposite.

    • you generalized a lot in your comment, though you're entitled to your preference. And what is "Acting white," btw? what is that supposed to mean and about the media showing higher expectations of black women than reality, you could say that about any race...you think every single white woman looks like megan fox...really? so I don't understand that point at all.

  • f*** what them racist ass people say. I love me some chocolate.

  • Me white from philly mostly white part love black girls I love there booty body shape how there real all but there hair And what I don't like is how their hair is most of the time more important then any moment I'm engaged To a black women and I love ever thing about her

  • OK, you want honesty? First off, black girls are very rough around the edges--physically and mentally. A vast majority of black females are "thick" and heavy. Ladies, there's a difference between being curvy and just being plain fat. And just because you have a "big" butt does not mean it is attractive. There's a difference between a full, tone butt and just a big fat butt. I also understand that black hair is way different than other race's hair--just the physical nature of it which cannot be controlled. So then black girls style their hair via weaves, dreads, or just extremely short. I'm sorry, I like hair that is long, flowing and radiant--so hair is a major turn off for me when it comes to black girls. And I realize nothing can be done about it. Also, no offense, but some of the facial features of black girls are just rough and some guys find it hard to get past that.

    But see, the physical characteristics that turn me off wouldn't be such a turnoff if black girls were more polite, and (how do I say this?) quiet. I mean there is a line between loquacious/friendly and flat out obnoxious. No one wants to hear your mastery of ebonics in the loudest manner possible. I think ebonics is a way for black people to somehow retain some cultural identity (which is fine) and it might sound cool to them, but trust me, it does not sound good to the casual white guy. The ghetto sound is weird. And, honestly, the attitude of some black girls is what really gets me. They seem to always be into drama. They always seem to have something negative to say. When talking with black girls, it's sometimes hard to tell if they are serious or if they are joking. It's alright for them to use questionable language and phrases, but not alright for anyone else.

    Long story short, if you are a black girl and desire a normal white guy, you might want to try to look white and act white. I know that sounds terribly insensitive, but that's the way I see it. I wouldn't worry about it though. You are what you are and it shouldn't be a hinderance to your self-esteem (coming from a ginger). Go out and do what you want with who you want and don't worry. Happiness is most desirable.

    • 2mo

      I don't know why this stood out to me, but when you said, "full, toned butt?" Compared to a "big, fat butt?" Really? BLACK GIRLS ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WITH BIG FAT BUTTS? A toned butt is not something natural, so of course no one would have it unless they worked on it. The ignorance all throughout your statement. PLEASE.

    • you're generalizing, you're entitled to your opinion. but you are coming off very ignorant by stereotyping black women as being impolite and loud. you said black women always have something negative to say, your comments indicate that you have nothing positive to say either and you come off as if you have an attitude yourself. just so you know.

    • First of all, stop stereotyping. Not every black girl or black person talks in "ebonics" as you say. And black people are not the only ones who are capable of acting ignorant. And talking proper does not equate to "talking white", contrary to your belief.

    • Show Older
  • I think you're worried about nothing. I don't know you, and I don't know who they kids that go to your school are, but I'm a young man, and through high school I dated a few black and mixed girls. I actually have never dated a white girl (not that it matters) but I just felt like most white girls were bitches (in their attitude). I found a very beautiful mixed girl my senior year in high school, and we dated, and really got to know each other..

    I think women are beautiful regardless of race, but it's not even what's on the outside.. it's what's on the inside. From what I can tell, you're very pretty and intelligent. Stick to your studies and I'm sure one day you'll find a good man. God bless!

  • At the end of the day all the human race came out of a Black woman she is the first woman of Creation,In the Holy Bible King Solomon Sings a song about the Beauty of a Black woman,all nations have Health and Beauty,But the Black woman stands out with hers as she has The Original Touch of class as I said Life it self began in Africa the Black Woman is the Mother of Creation ,why try to put her down when she gave you all life?

    • Solution to your problem. if your gonna date a black girl, don't date the ghetto ones.Or even better solution, DONT DATE THE AMERICAN ONES. Problem solved. Something is wrong with the country you people live in, all American women act trashy and America is fat country. Its the truth :/ As soon as I came to this country, I noticed how filled with racism and ignorance it is.

  • Show More

What Girls Said 224

  • 28d

    hello! I'm a 15 year old mixed girl from Canada. I spent hours reading the "opinions" on this page and it honestly just makes me sad. I'm half black half white, I have hazel eyes, very long loose curly hair, I'm very tall, big lips, feckles, and an athletic build. I previously used to look down on black women, and black men. I thought about the term "ghetto" very often and associated it with them. Then I woke up! I have been in a white based society for my entire life and I realized how ridiculous I was being and thinking. I've always wished I was white because I desire white men. Now I know how ridiculous that is. I think black boys are cuties but in the end, I want to be with a white man. Just a preference. But honestly, I doubt that will ever happen. The stereotypes in the forum are utterly ridiculous and I don't believe that many people will ever be able to look past them. It's true, the black culture is different from the white, but so what? No culture is any better not worse than another. I for one, have been told that I act "too white" and that I should "embrace my inner ratchet." I was so shocked when my supposed friends told me that. Stereotypes have taken over our sad, sad society and are sadly here to stay. So overall, I am honestly just sad. Sad because of the stereotypes. Sad because I was born into society where black people are still viewed as a "downgrade." It's sad that men and boys want us to "act white." I can't even believe somebody would say that. ACT as YOU. This is very long so I'm going to end this with one word. Sad. It's a sad, sad world we live in.

  • 28d

    Why does it matter if a non black man wants you or not? That shit is so played out lol

  • 28d

    Yes, I agree, and white people pay millions of dollars to look like us, the hair, the tans, the lips, but it is still bad to be black. It is downright insulting and wrong. Plus these guys say they like ass and like tits, but they date skinny ass white girls with nothing, saying we are too "fat". I just sounded so ghetto with this comment, and so racist, but hey, it's true.

  • 1mo

    People tend to judge our race alot. They say the most negative things about use that aren't even true about most black girls and women. Yes i can say some black women and girls do act ghetto but they dont know any better it was how they were raised but most black girls and women were raised differently so we should be judge by others behavour. There so many beautiful intelligent and charming black girls and women so have and open mind. Your missing out !!

  • 1mo

    Black people have strong personalities. They are confident and outspoken. I think its because black people have to deal with coming from poor backgrounds than the other race counterparts and thus have to have a stronger personality to deal with difficulties in life. Things are not handed to them on a silver platter. They have to work hard to get out of the hood, get an education and a job and build life for themselves. Nothing is given to them or is made easy for them.

    They also have to face racism and preference being shown to others who are white or have naturally strait hair and fair skin. This is genetic for them but black people have to work for all of that by putting on relaxers and weaves.

    People should understand that's why black people have strong personality. Because of economic reasons caused by history and genetically they have course hair, dark skin, are curvy and have thick lips.

    Even if they are not beautiful in society's standards they are the ones with the most HEART and are SOULFUL. Black people are REAL. Sharing a black persons life journey can only make you more compassionate and appreciate life more. Live life to the fullest and savour every moment.

    Black people are beautiful and have beautiful souls! That's why they are rappers, poets and they are emotionally deep.. They have a lot to tell about life. They are gorgeous and magnificent.
    I should know I am black, intelligent, kind and just too beautiful.

  • 1mo

    I know this doesn't help much because I'm a chick. But I think black women on average tend to be the BEST looking race of women. They are for more likely in my opinion to have perfect bone structure, perfect curves, beautiful features. And you don't. Fucking. Age.

  • 1mo

    There are black men out there that loves black women. In fact, I married a black Hispanic man who does loves black women. Also, I know there are white, hispanic, and Asian men that love black women, but would not date or marry them. Why? Because they are afraid of being ostracized by family, friends, and outsiders. I know black women are beautiful, just don't feed into the ignorant stereotypes that are going around. I sure don't... to me it's child's play.

  • 1mo

    Black women are more manly than other women, in both appearance and mannerisms.

    It would seem that for both genders, Asians are most feminine, blacks most masculine and whites+arabs fall somewhere in the middle, so black women and Asian men are least desirable for the majority of gynephiles whereas Asian women and black men are most desirable for the majority of androphiles.

  • 2mo

    Black women arents seen in the media a lot and media has some or a lot of effect on who people end up being attractesd to. But I'm straight, but I think black girls are extremely beautiful. I love their feminine features as well as the strong atmosphere they hold. I think they're beautiful anf I've seen guys (white as well) dating black girls

  • 2mo

    I think it's partly because a lot of different countries and cultures were built on the fact that the lighter the skin the more desirable the person is. I feel like that's so deeply ingrained in cultures that they're not willing to see beyond someone's skin tone

  • 2mo

    You'll just have to learn to look past it.
    There are a lot of shallow people here in GaG and their negative opinions doesn't represent the whole truth.



  • First off I'd like to say that I am black women, from East Africa (cushite) and I find myself wondering is it is preference or race, and I'll be honest I'm still undecided. But what I have found absolutely galling is the stereotypes attached to black women. And scrolling down this thread has just seemed to make me more angrier and more frustrated.

    I live in England and I've decided to share some of the stereotypes attached to other races of women.

    White women :

    1- like their drink, more so then taking care of their children or homes.

    2- extremely easy...

    3- they all want to be BLACK! With their tanned skins, plumped lips and fake breast.

    Asian women:

    1- submissive

    2- A- sexual beings. ( found sexy in a fetish way)

    3- Boring.

    Now do I find any of these stereotypes to be true, NO. Could their be a white/Asian women who meets these stereotypes yes. But they would be few and far between. I can accept people saying they don't like black features or hair. But I refuse to accept your lack of attraction on stereotypes, now that I find racist.

  • How about the question you should ask is why do some people like feel the need to hate on certain others? Some might find African Americans unattractive, while others would find them beautiful. Though I'm not black, I do wish I had their amazing figures and strong attitude. And who gives a crap about what the media says? I don't think black people are ugly, nor 'divas' how some might call them as. I have this friend in school, and she's black, but she's extremely beautiful and the nicest person ever. Don't let media, or online people make you feel down :) I know some guys who only go for black girls because they like everything about them.

  • Its crazy how people use to be more honest and answer more years ago! Well a troll user linked your question so that's why I found it lmao.

    I see where your coming from though so I hope college life won't be like that.

  • I'm sorry but whoever you are you need therapy. I don't know where your getting this idea, but it's the biggest load of bull*hit. Men of all cultures are interested in black women, and that your pretty in comparison to most black girls what exactly does that mean, because it sound like have internalized colorism or something

  • well Black women aren't uglier than any other race and people who claims so are brainwashed and or racist. the reason we're mistreated is because many of us (in the new world anyway) are descendants of slaves and people think that this makes us less than. I also would like to remind you that we were brought to the United States and Latin America FOR LABOR, to toil and this racist society will never acknowledge our beauty or give us credit for having features that are desired by others races full lips, dark skin, voluptuous bodies, luscious voices, diverse beauty etc...they will never give credit, they'll throw up a J. Lo or Kim Kardashian or an Adele and call it a day...so just accept this and it will life the burden off of your shoulders you can't change people. I would recommend only going around people who value you, go outside the United States, especially to Latin American like Northern brazil or Africa and you'll find that your beauty is appreciated.

  • Just would like to chime in.

    I don't think white men find black women less attractive. That is sweeping generalization!

    I've found, throughout my years, If you live in a progressive city or mixed community in general you will see interracial (black/white) couples and families.

    I've lived in many places in the US. I've dated many white men (I am a black female) and have drawn this conclusion. I've seen, with my own eyes, white men with black women. Married, with multi raced children. Half our sons elementary school class are multi racial.

    My partner/best friend/fiance is a white man, very attractive, owns his own business and is very alpha/confident. He is not the dredge of society or a white man trying to act black.

    His preferences are black women or Latina women.

    He has dated white women in the past but, according to him, he's always been drawn to non white women.

    He further says that if you put a hot white woman in the same room with an average black girl he is automatically turned on (if you will) to the black woman. I am the same way.

    I say that it is akin to being gay. You like what you like. You are what you are.

    It's preference my dears.

    For anyone despairing over "Are black women unattractive" who cares. All that matters is what YOU find attractive because, at the end of the day, YOU are the one coming home to THEM. Not the world and their perception.

    So in conclusion. There ARE white men, Asian men, non Hispanic men and everything in between who find black women attractive. There are more than you know. The world and peoples views are progressing and barriers are coming down. This is not the 1950's anymore. That breed/mentality is dying.

    - In a relationship with my soul mate for 7 years

  • Stupid stereotypes mislead incompetent men

  • there is not a difference in physical features of any race and as far as hair every race of people have "good and bad hair". I've seen white people with tight curly dry unattractive hair and when white people's hair is wet it has a bad order to it and one some straight hair looks stringy and unhealthy. there are white people with wide noses and big lips and beady eyes, tiny beady eyes are not attractive regardless of color. Most white women do not look like Nicole Kidman or Scarlette Johanson. I don't think most people are superstar beautiful besides beauty comes from within. If someone is not attracted to your personality you do not want that person anyway. Stay focused on your studies to prepare you for a promising successful future. Have faith you'll one day meet a wonderful man to share your life with and you'll have a loving family. Just be happy and have fun. Falling in love young and ruin your life.

    btw I do not have any chemicals on my hair and my hair is to the middle of my back and I think I have great facial features and I know many other black women just as beautiful if not more beautiful

  • My dear, I simply have one recommendation for you. "You need not think of receiving love from another, when you are lacking in the ability to love yourself and realize the how beautiful you are." Then and only then will you feel appreciated and loved as a black woman or whatever ethnic group owns you. Another piece of information you'll find useful is that an educated, smart, sophisticated black woman is desirable. Persons that stereotype personalities, based on race lack knowledge, because all races have women and men that are intolerable. Likewise, you'll find tolerable characters amongst the intolerable ones in every race, as well. The comments you get here are merely for encouragement and nothing comes of it, if you remain insecure about your character. We're all beautiful in our own ways, plus we're all imperfect. Make other things in life become your burden, like where do you see yourself in 10 years.

    I'm unable to share personal experiences with you, being that I've never experienced such a predicament. When discussing racial preference, some persons that are discontent with life on a whole and their life experiences, feel it necessary to share their folly vices. Ignorance is a comfort to fools.

  • I honestly want to know where most of these guys are finding black women like this. I read some of the answers from the male section, and it makes very little sense because it seems that they are describing black women from the ghetto. Did they forget about the black women that actually go to university, and college, and do something with their lives. I understand that there are a lot of ghetto black women, but honestly what about the ones who actually do something and make a difference. And I don't understand why people can not keep their rude, negative opinions to themselves, there are ways around saying something rude that can be phrased in a way that it is not offensive. People seem to forget that everyone has feelings, and nobody likes to get them hurt. This is why it's so hard to move forward, and get past things. Why make someone else feel bad about themselves, you don't need to do it. And I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't want someone else to pick away at their own insecurities. Why do it, we all live on one earth and you're going to see people of different races, creeds, and ethnicities, so get over yourself and put yourself in someone else's shoes and think, would I like if someone bullied me or picked at my insecurities. And I am a black female from Canada who's going to university next year, and personally I like white guys, that's just who I am. But I would never bash black guys.

  • It's funny looking at some of the post. I am a black female, and I find it the opposite with me, I only attract white guys because most black guys think that I am too "white" whatever that means. Everyone thinks I am mixed, but both of my parents are black. Now we do have; French, American Indian, Spanish and Caucasian in our family tree, so I picked up some of those features. My mom was a school teacher and later worked to educating young kids about food and nutrition. (My mom has her Masters in Agriculture and her Bachelors in Elementary Education)( My dad had his bachelors in business, and worked as a postal manager). So I guess that is why my parents were able to take on vacations, camp, let us take swim lessons and expose us to different cultures and races. So I think it all comes down to how the person is raised, how there attitude will be, as far as features...genetics. I am married to a wonderful "White" guy now, but I still get hit on by "White" men, and now I get hit on by "Black" men, but I think it is because I am with my husband. I understand that some of my people fit the stereotypes, but those are the one the media shows the world. You need to go out and see for yourself.

  • I am disgusted by the lack of education many people have on this board. I am Black, African American, I am intelligent, I am educated. I have a Bachelors Degree and I will soon have a Masters Degree. Black women are NOT the most undesirable women, we are the MOST desired. Sisters don't let mass media fool you and don't allow ignorance to deter you. Look at yourselves, bronze skin, dark eyes, full lips, wide hips, what's not desirable about being a real women. People are spending thousands of dollars to get those lips honey, we are born with them. We are truly unique, starting with our hair down to our bronze feet. No other woman on earth is like us and that should be celebrated. We come in all shades from the lightest to the most ebony. Our bone structure is amazing, strong and baby we are built to last. God made us and he didn't make any mistakes on us.

    I have dated men of all races, half asian, black, white, Hispanic, arab, African I never had an issue attracting anyone. The DEVIL is a liar sisters don't believe the hype. There is NOTHING wrong with you...your nose is perfect, your hair is beautiful, your body is a blessing no matter the shape. Are you healthy? Are you strong? That's what matters. As far as our attitude...All women are emotional creatures and we all nag, we all get upset and most of us don't like the taste of BS. You can't say all black women have an attitude, for those who say we do..my question is what is it about you that attracts that kind of person?

    People who aren't well traveled, well educated, make the most ignorant assumptions. You people don't know any better so you should crack open a book, take trip to Africa, and get to know people. Invite someone who is of African Ancestry over to your home, or matter of fact go hang out with a black person. Let me tell you, us sisters can really cook, come eat at my house. I bet by the time you leave your mind will be changed and your heart will be open. - Much Love!

  • American blacks act differently from other black people and not all American blacks act ghetto and have big ghetto butts. So generalizing like that doesn't make sense, people need to travel outside their country and meet people and you all will realize that black people are very classy. frankly I find all Americans dull and ignorant, not just blacks.

  • Me too! I feel you girl they portray black women as violent, ghetto and undesirable and they portray white women (no hate guys) as beautiful, sophisticated and classy and if a black women acts like that they say " oh! she is so acting white" so black people aren't classy, they aren't beautiful? excuse me we do not have many baby daddys or we do not live in some crime-ridden ghetto place were we smoke all day long. NO! I am sick and f***ing tired of these stereotypes is 2012 people understand and appreciate everyone. I like white boys but in the back of mind I think they prefer white girls or mixed-raced.

    I can't change who I am and if I can I will never in a MILLION YEARS. God made me the way I AM and the media can go f*** itself. Because lately the media is like acting as Hitler trying to create a white world with blond and blue eyes. Peh-lease this ain't Sweden.

    :D You are beatiful. Black women are beautiful. Don't stop the growth of your self-esteem let it blossom darling.

    Anonymous wise 14 year old bitch ladies and ladies. :D xxxx

  • Honestly because most black girls are laud . They stink . And there ashy ..Well that could be true for one black girl but THAT DOES NOT MEAN ALL BLACK Women ARE THIS WAY! Also people do not date to make a statistic...They date because they are interested in each other... Is it mostly Black men with white women .?.Or white Men with Black women? Its mostly White men with a black women... ! And you know what's mostly in this country? WHITE MEN! So why would you write this post and downgrade yourself ? hhhmmmm jus Sayn !

    xoxo,

    D

  • @eddiearmstrong what I want to know though is why you only feel "comfortable dating white girls" like I hear this a lot from people, that they want to date people they are comfortable with and that have similar cultures to theirs...well I grew up in predominantly white areas and black kids have always been large minorities in my schools (we're talking 2 or 3 per grade out of over 100 kids) so I never really got what that whole "comfortable" means..i understand preference, if you like blond girls go nuts and date blond girls but if you won't date a girl of another race just because you might feel "awkward" then that is racial discrimination, you're treating people differently because of the color of their skin

  • I may not be a guy, but as a young black woman all I want to say to you is the only people worth your time are the people who accept you for who you are as a person.I have struggled with the same but now that I am almost twenty I see the beauty in all cultures and ethnicities. Remember, you don't wake up very morning to impress people, so they don't matter. Once you go to college, you'll be exposed to more diversity which will definitely be good for you. I went to a predominantly white school but had no problems. I dated white, Asian and black boys and had many friends of different races. It all depends on where you are what you'll experience will be.

    I've learned that we are made in God's image, so if someone doesn't like your sun kissed skin, or hair that reaches up to the heavens in tight curls, or full lips, then them and their preferences can kick rocks and you keep you pretty head held high. If they have a problem with who you are, it is not your problems, tell them that is between them and God. One thing a lot of my guy friends say they like in any woman,especially black women are the ones who are confident (not condescending), who take good care of themselves and are just geniunely good people. And whether they want to wear their hair naturally or not is a personal choice and fine with them. Don't go looking for others to accept you. People who truly like you for who you are will find you. I think all women are gorgeous and the media has this ill way of making women feel that we are not adequate and they always change their mind on what's in style. None of these things matter. Be good to yourself and others and you will be blessed. I say when its time to go to college whether you chose an HBCU (like myself) or not, anywhere you go there will be diversity and more opportunities to grow as an individual. So don't be discouraged relying on man to give you confidence, relying on man gives nothing but disappointment. So remember love yourself and the body God gave you and keep your head held high because you are a diamond and don't you ever forget that. As I have always been told "God DOES NOT make junk"

  • I'm not racists, I have white friends (lol).

    Some "generalizations" about White American Men and the real reasons why "Black Women" won't date them.

    You resemble apes more than any other race. With your disgusting hair problems, I mean who wants to date someone with greasy, oily hair coming out of every crack and crevice. Nose, ears, behind, it's everywhere, complete turn off. You are clearly decended from the apes you claim to have evolved from (I think it is more like de-evolved).You act like uncivilized apes everywhere you go. The whole world is disgusted by White Americans. Everywhere you go you destroy the economy and culture. You're filthy ways are the precursor to some of the worst disease epidemics to plague the human race. Your perversions are insatiable you are unable to have normal relations with a woman. Pornography and other sick diversions were made for you. Bottom line the real apes.

    Small penises... I believe a lot of the problems with sex white men have are directly related to their false legislated superiority. White men are behind the statistics concerning penis size, their research pools consist mainly of white men and maybe a few tiny Asian men to round it out. Therefore you get the average 3-5 inch penis of the White man. Size matters.

    White men are ignorant, and down right stupid. No original thoughts. I had a white boy tell me that Travon Martin's shooting was justified because he shouldn't have been walking in that neighborhood. White people are not the most intelligent in the world by far. This is demonstrated in their need to fudge the data in every aspect to perpetuate their false superiority. Their only strength is in numbers in America, not intelligence. The Good Old Boy system is their only salvation. Hence their need to suppress and demonize other races for their own survival. 85% of the world is non-white people. They will soon fizzle out on their own.

    Disgusting inbreeding. Black women never want to compromise their superior gene pool by watering it down with inbreed white genes. Thus her continued attraction and affliation with delicious virile black men. Just look at the races with the most deformed, handi-capped, retarded children. You only see this in large degree in white America.

    Most white men are fuugggglllyyyy. They have to work real hard just to be barely presentable. What is it with white men's naturally flabby bodies ewwww, white men have disgusting bodies and age prematurely (poor genes). Being blunt the majority of white men HAVE to pay for it...

    They are mean, vicious, cowards, effeminate, scarey, creepy, disgusting. Truly fat, lazy, and stupid. Their Ghetto counterparts are mearly mirroring what they learned from them. Whites lack morality and will do anything to advance their own agenda.

    Unless he is far outside of the norm a white man is not worth dating. The proof is in the answers given to a child in the previous posts. Having all descended from the same two people race is a false construct.

    • There are some good white men out there. I just hate when white people called blacks apes so I HAVE to give them the business because I'm pretty sure apes and monkeys have white skin under that brown and black HAIR that is naturally straight and thin, and last time I checked apes and monkeys have pretty thin lips. So just remember that next time someone ignorant comes along trying to bring you down just shoot that at them, smile and walk away because what they have to say after does not matter

  • Wow, how did I stumble onto this page?

    I have to respond though. A lot of these responses are kinda racist and based on stereotypes that I find to be mostly untrue or built on total misunderstandings or people being brainwashed by standard culture.

    Girl, let me help you out. I'm a black woman. I grew up in "the ghetto," learned to talk white, act white, went to an Ivy League school, and learned to schmooze with professionals, politicians, and wealthy people. That BS was a betrayal of who I am. So I didn't last long in that world.

    Yet I find that now, now that I'm true to myself, I tend to be universally liked. I have no trouble attracting men of all colors. I'm not telling you this to brag but to make a point, so hear me out. I'm thirty and I can tell you straight up: I am nobody but myself, I don't CARE what anybody thinks of me, and THAT is what makes me attractive. Believe me, it took me a very long time, a lot of soul-searching, and a lot of painful transformations to reach this point. But when what other people thought stopped mattering to me--that's when I became the girl everybody wanted.

    Eventually, I stopped "talking white" (code-switching) for other peoples' benefit. I wear my own style, wear my hair however I feel like wearing it, straight or curly--it doesn't matter, and act, well, like me. Simply put, I do whatever makes ME feel good, because we are far past the time when black women should be letting others decide how we look and act.

    Yoko Ono and John Lennon once said "woman is the n*gger" of the world," without realizing that there is something worse than being a "n*gger" and that's being a "n*gger" woman. The burden on black womens' backs is greater than any burden in the world. We are the most oppressed demographic in the US, yet we have incredible strength. Black women contribute more proportionally to our communities, and we are often the matriarchs of our families. In addition, we deal with attitudes like the ones expressed in this forum, attitudes that are designed to make us feel inferior. Recognize that those attitudes are wrong. Recognize your own strength.

    Don't EVER, EVER, EVER let someone not wanting to date you destroy your self esteem. That is utter bull. Be yourself. Be you. Above all, LOVE yourself because, my dear, you deserve it. Look at the answers here and ask yourself if you would even WANT to date men like this. Who think these things about black women. Who would judge you this way. You wouldn't. I don't put any stock in it, but I've heard men say they prefer white women because white women are easier to control. C'mon. This is ALL some misogynistic, racist crap. Forget it. Throw it out.

    Seriously. I know it sounds cliche, but please, please, be yourself, surround yourself with people who will be themselves, find a fellow who will be himself. Be an individual and seek a partner who is an individual. Don't ask fools on the internet for their opinion on who you are. You are sacred.

  • Black women are beautiful. White men and other non Black races overrate their women in looks if you ask me.

    The only time I see a beautiful white woman or other non Black woman is usually on t.v in reality they are average looking or simply cute but not "omg white/Asian/Indian women are hot" like many men act like.

  • To answer your question though, its simple. Racism and misogyny. Don't let them fool you with nature talk. If their preferences were based solely on nature they'd be attracted to fertility, and on average black women are more fertile than white women. They'd be attracted to signs of said fertility, and guess what "tight" and "toned" don't really make the list. Fleshy wide hips would be where it's at. Skinny pushed as attractive is an invention of capitalism to sell diet pills and exercise equipment. It's a billion dollar industry. That is how most of our preferences our formed these days- the media. Stop fooling yourselves.

    Now as far as personalities go, the sexism comes in to play more. Let me just be frank. Men are mentally/emotionally weak and fragile. . "Act like a lady" is code for "sugarcoat things and coddle me. Don't yell at me, my masculinity is so fragile that if you do I will feel broken. Even if I'm dead ass wrong, tell me with a smile." Nuts. What's interesting though is that they think black women aren't like that. We shouldn't be but most of us ARE. We are taught to coddle more than anyone else! (See the "ride or die" trope)

    And for those black women who actually do say "I don't need a man" have every f*cking right to when 60% of us are sexually assaulted before we even reach 18 (These are the ones reported! I believe the number to be even higher just based on my family, friends, and classmates!) We absolutely do not need you when you sh*t on us like this. But see that's the thing. Men want to be needed. It goes back to needing you to be weak for them to feel strong. No denying it.

    Yall can swallow this act more feminine bull if you want to. That's nothing but a tool to keep you oppressed, suppressed and depressed enough to take their sh*t. So what if we look angry. Stop raping and harassing us just for existing and maybe we wont! Try that before you tell us to be more pleasant a**holes!

  • First of all Google black women. Then Google white women. White women being better looking is a lie. They're just so bland and many have skin like pigs lmao. Our skin not being soft is a lie. That's why white women shrivel up while we get carded at 50 (my mom still does) Black women having bigger p****** is a lie. Here, have a study racehist.blogspot.c o m/2008/05/racial-differences-in-vaginal.html (take out the spaces in com or you can just google black women smallest vaginas) Please never feel inferior to white women. They are dry. Literally and figuratively. They know it's true too that's why they gotta shove the idea that they're beautiful down everyone else's throat.

    Black women are f***ing beautiful. Our hair when short reminds me of little flowers and buds. When long, like the trees. I feel like we embody the beauty of nature more than anyone else.We are the essence of life. We are the origin of life. We are everything. White hair to me is like...idk stingy soggy ass noodles lmao. It's all about your perception. Work on decolonizing your mind before you start dating. Remind youself you're beautiful everyday. Spend time admiring other black women. Spend time around black women who don't try to diminish their blackness. It will help trust me :)

  • Your so right though! I always ask this two, I'll see a fine ass guy going for a stick. I even asked some of my friends and they said that black girls are so loud, noisy, arrogant, and rude, but what I don't understand is the reason they say this is because the only ones their looking at is the one's who act like this, I know so many black girls with class, brains, and their pretty. Yeah they don't wear designer clothes but that don't go past their personality. But I was in class and this girl, lord! She was threatening to beat the boys up and she was wearing boy clothes and she was as thin as a white girl, and they was whispering to me "Daum, she fine doe." Um...no. and sweet heart look at you, obviously a guy would want a girl like you, you smart and have a future it seems,the only thing wrong with you is the low self esteem, so go on with your bad self. And about the racism, yeah their some racist mother f***ers but yo be yourself, theirs plenty of men out there.

  • I don't understand some of the feed back. All black women are not loud, thick, have huge butts or speak in Ebonics. There are other races of women who are striving to get bigs butt and big lips, and also some black women are. I'm 5ft and weight 120 and people say I have a nice butt but it is not fat mostly because I can't really gain weight. But I wish people would open their eyes and not just set certain people in different categories because we are not all the same. And we all don't wear weave neither do we all need it. It kind of sucks to know this is what everyone thinks of all black women even when I am nothing like how these individuals explain. To be educated and not to speak in Ebonics means you trying to be like white people, it's just not right. But, whatever I love myself and all races of people even the unkind and ignorant.

  • I've read a couple of the comments below and some of the things that were said are very true. A lot of men don't find African American women attractive because of the way that they carry themselves. In some cases, it's not about the looks because there are plenty of men of every race who do find African American women attractive. It's their negative attitudes that repel them. I myself am a 17 YO African American female and I have seen how so many African American girls and women carry themselves in a very unfeminine way. They act exactly like the stereotypes on television. They walk around with this bad attitude and act like they want to fight someone if they think they're looking at them the wrong way. On top of that, they don't speak proper English and handle themselves very similar to the way an undesirable man would. Now, I am NOT saying that this applies to every African American female out there; just a great majority of them.

    I am proof that not every African American woman out there is the same. I do not carry myself the way many others do because I respect myself enough to not want to be that way. I find it to be extremely undesirable.

    I have met and dated several guys of different races and plenty of them told me that I was different "from the rest of them". So, is it really a matter of race? It's not that African American women/girls are the least desirable. It's just that a majority of them make a bad name for us because of their undesirable attitudes.

  • because you smell like a barnyard animal and look just like an ape

  • The truth of the matter is yes racism exist, but more than that reality exist. People only know what they are taught and what they have been exposed to. I think what is true is that men are attracted to their mother's and women are attracted to their father's, father/mother figure or a protector of some sort. I am a black women who has always been attracted to black men. I grew up in a black neighborhood and that was all I knew. I found some white men attractive "to be white", but I would never have dated one. I have been exposed to other things in my adult hood and I married a white man. The marriage did not work, I still find some white men attractive but mostly I am attracted to black men and I want my next husband to be a black man who can relate to me. Attraction is generally a preference based on what we have been exposed to. On the occasion it is ignorance, and any race of man or women who do not date within there race (based on ignorance) I would question their love for self and their ability to love anyone else. What men and women both like is confidence, start loving your self and men and women will flock to you. Desperation is a repellent, don't listen to it or allow it in your world. There is a lot of good things and bad things said about all ethnicity's and nationalities, you just have to choose what you pay attention to.

    I think because you are feeling vulnerable about self you tend to hone in on the negative things said about black women. Change the way you think and the world will change, I guarantee it. It's all subjective and the only truth is what you decide..Good luck in life and love.

  • I agree with the concept of preferences= prejudices. If I had my choice in men, they would be over 6 feet, intelligent, and understanding. Good people are hard to find in ANY race and any height, so I try not to be so limited in my thinking.

    As far as appearance is concerned, I've noticed even among Black men that Black hair is not attractive, no matter how pretty or long it is. Boy, am I glad that I don't live to attract people to me. I wake up, and I decide that I'm beautiful. And my self esteem alone attracts others of all races. More White men like my natural hair than Black men! The last Black guy I went on a date with, I met him with my hair natural. When we were preparing to go out, he asked me if I was going to do something with my hair, like straighten it. :-/

    As far as education and attitude are concerned, we are getting better as a race. More of us are graduating and going to college. You forget, we are just three generations from emotional and mental slavery, so it will take us a couple of more generations to get it right.

    Our behavior and attitude is centered around insecurities. Most Black women don't know how to weed out men's intentions, so they start by being 'hard'. You look at her too long, and she gives you the 'whatchu looking at?' face. They figure if you can get through the attitude, then you're probably strong enough to deal with them. No woman likes a weak man. A man that understands that a smart woman is an asset, yes. But no weaknuts. They know that more civilized people don't want you to make a scene, so they tend to get loud to get what they want. Also, this is also indicative of any race of people who aren't used to nice things. I have a White friend who embarrassed the HELL out of me at the restaurant in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel in New York. There is ghetto in every race.

    The reason why Black men don't like our attitude is because we remind them of their mothers. Mom had to be dad too. She was never sure of her own decisions when it comes to men, and he probably witnessed her being either overbearing, controlling, and probably to some loser because if nothing else, he was expected to be a screw-up, or to come up short when he does show up. His sister is the same way, and so are the other Black girls that he knows. So there are two things he set out to do: not be the loser that women chose to deal with, and not deal with a Black woman who's going to treat him like a child. He seeks women that are demure, and let him make the decisions in a relationship. That's the reason why guys of all races like Asian women. They're smart, petite, and they let the man lead. Traditionally speaking anyway.

    As a double degreed SUCCESSFUL Black woman from humble beginnings, it is pertinent for Black people to get an education, and see more in life. Once they see that success is possible, everything opens up. Even relationships.

  • Most Black women don't marry because the men (Black men) aren't on their level in terms of education, finances and morals.

    Sad but true.

    If you notice MOST White women are NOT married to Black men either. Unless, he's an athlete or musician with a lot of money the majority of white women and Asian women won't marry a Black men either because on average Black guys have noting to offer.

    What is a man if he can't uplift you spiritually but instead degrades you?

    What is a man if he can't be a provider as nature intended but instead tugs on the lint in his pockets and calls her a golddiger when he doesn't even have a penny for her to dig for copper?

    What is a man that has no education whether self-taught or otherwise and he sits around using vulgar language to describe women and situations?

    What is a man that has feminine emotions are argues with women as if he were a woman?

    It's a so called Black man and for most sane women those characteristics are highly UNATTRACTIVE.

    Who would marry that?

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