Another Gay Take

[BaileyisDarcy]

I just found this on Youtube.

"Nobody really has a reason to hate gays ... there's no completely valid reason." - 9:16

So. I have made a take before, "Why it is okay to be gay" which I will admit isn't one of my best pieces of writing. But it got people talking.

I'm hoping to do the same here.

I'm not going to go on some great speel, I'm simply going to ask a question. And please answer properly without bullshitting me.

For the religious, I want you to imagine that whatever text you follow does not exist. Be it the Bible or whatever. For the purpose of my question, it doesn't exist. Because I am sick to death of people hating gays 'because God said so'. No. Not happening here. So it's not, "Why does God hate gays?" it's "Why do you hate gays?"

For everyone else, decide in your own mind, forget what you've been told.

The question.

Why is it considered immoral to be homosexual, or commit homosexual acts?

Why do you believe gay marriage should not or shouldn't have gone ahead?

And why would people be gay, if it were 'unnatural or not meant to be? (This is the only question for which you can play the God card)

Now, please nobody argue or attack each other. Simply questioning a belief is fine, but don't attack. Nobody here is attacking. I am curious as to what people will say, and if you are for gay rights, then I am happy for you to share why you are. But I don't want to find anyone arguing. Please.

The reason this is a take by the way, and not a question. Is mostly because I was planning on a great speel, and a little for the extra xper.

[RationalMale]

For one, Christians do need to learn reasons why they oppose homosexuality aside from Scripture. You can't expect non-christians to care about what the Bible says.

For two, we in the USA are completely against texting and driving, or drinking and driving, or smoking, right? Because it damages people and those damages cost society?

According to the Center for Disease Control... men who have sex with men are 2% of the American population. They also have 56% percent of HIV cases, which I think we can all agree, is one of the most horrible diseases known to man.

They also have 75% of primary and secondary syphilis cases.

They have anal cancer at a rate 17 times higher than normal men.

https://www.cdc.gov/msmhealth/STD.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/group/msm/index.html

This isn't 1970. This is 2015. Gays have been shouting about free condoms and HIV for decades, plural. From 2008-2010, HIV infections increased 13 percent overall among the men who have sex with men population. The problem isn't going away. Either gays are too dumb to catch on to the last 40 years of "USE CONDOMS!" Or HIV gets around it.

Hell, consider the "bugchaser" subcult in the gay community. Men who want to become infected with STD's.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugchasing

And that isn't taking into account that there is no actual consensus that being homosexual is genetic. Go look at the incidence of homosexual behavior in prison. You all have heard of it, now go look up the rates. It's a hell of a lot higher than it is in the regular population.

According to the Royal College of Psychiatry in the UK (a place so liberal that you will literally be arrested at 2am for making anti-muslim facebook posts, again, look it up if you don't believe me) they say that being gay is a combination of genetic and postnatal factors. In other words, they say it's part genes, and part upbringing.

According to the American Psychological Association, there's no consensus among scientists, and many think it's a combination of nature and nurture.

https://www.wnd.com/2009/05/97940/

The question isn't, "Why try to oppose homosexuality?"

When you look at the facts, the question is, "Why would we tolerate this lifestyle that has a massive cost to society?"

[RationalMale]

by the way, if you claim to be a Christian, don't you go around lying the Bible doesn't clearly label homosexuality as a sin.

Romans 1:25-27: They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

[thetundrawolf]

Anal sex is not the natural use of the body. I think the text is clear.

[Kalibie]

@thetundrawolf more women do anal then the total amount of gay men out there... That's not a reason

[thetundrawolf]

That does not make it a natural use of her body.

[RationalMale]

@Kalibie

It's probably a reason why gays have 17 times higher rate of anal cancer...

[Kalibie]

@thetundrawolf not arguing if it's natural or not. I'm just pointing out using anal sex as a reason to say gay is wrong when there are more woman who do anal than amount of gay men is illogical.

Gay and anal aren't synonymous.

[thetundrawolf]

Saying a group of people also engage in unnatural harmful activities, also, does not negate the point I made.

[thetundrawolf]

Great post @RationalMale I have lived the gay lifestyle and it is so brain- and soul draining you seek whatever fleeting pleasure you can find, no matter how dangerous. You simply do not care, you chase emotions, and wild, out of control desires, you sleep with handfuls of different men in one night and never catch any of their names. It's about sex, pure and simple, and it is damaging society. Most people are falling for it, too, and supporting it blindly. Yes, a few gay couples find monogamy but they are the exception, as your statistics prove.

[BaileyisDarcy]

@thetundrawolf

You cannot 'live the gay lifestyle'. Just saying, you may have been, or identified as gay at some point, but you cannot simply 'live the gay lifestyle' and claim that you know what its about and what its like. Its like saying, I went to a christian school and got called a bible basher, so I know what its like to be catholic. I don't. I was forced to partake in the beliefs of catholics and Christine but iI don't know what its like to be one.

I dont believe you can judge a group on people on statistics. I dont believe that. In my opinion, being gay hasn't cost anybody anything. If anything, its given a few of my friends somebody o talk to who understands what they're going through, or they feel comfortable around. My guy friends feel like they can talk to me about things they can't with straight girls, because they feel like iI'm one of them. Not as in one of the guys. But as somebody who can answer their questions bout women, but also understands their stance as guys.

[thetundrawolf]

You are completely wrong. If anything, me being able to stand back from it gives me the ability to be more fair minded than someone who is actively deceiving themselves and living in a shameful lifestyle. You say it gives you someone to talk to, but that is selfish you have no idea what is really going on in his mind or heart, nor do you care.

I hate to be so hard on you but you are a prime example as to why people are willingly ignorant. You want to believe an emotional lie, an emotional fantasy over cold hard truth.

It's really sad.

[vickiezalez]

I still think its two pieces of bacon on that sign! Lol

To answer your question, I've never thought there was anything wrong with homosexuality. I'm bi so I understand having feelings for the same sex. Usually those who are afraid of something they're not used to are afraid.

[ThatGuy98]

Why is it considered immoral to be homosexual, or commit homosexual acts?

I know what you said about leaving our the Bible but it's kinda hard when talking about morality. One thing I could mention apart from the Bible is that it's not moral when considering children, I will address this later.

Why do you believe gay marriage should not or shouldn't have gone ahead?

Gay marriage was not necessary, nor a right choice to make. There were plenty of other possibilities, such as some kind of civil union or another version of marriage. All they had to do was to leave the Church, the children and the word "marriage" out of it. But no, they just had to change the whole definition of marriage, and at the same time directly target Christians and children. When gay marriage was legalized the state basically told us Christians; "we decide what you can and can not believe". When priests get forced to marry gays against their beliefs and will, we have ultimately thrown freedom of religion out of the window.

Another problem is the children, there is plenty of research that points at gay relationships not being optimal for Children, and we are basically violating the children's rights just because some gays want to marry. A French human's rights lawyer that was raised by 2 lesbians said something like this: "If gay marriage was legal when I was raised, I would sue the state for violation of children's rights. Growing up without a dad was like growing up without a limb, I feel like a part of me is missing. I to this day still have problems with my masculinity and identity."

And why would people be gay, if it were 'unnatural or not meant to be?

This is in my opinion pretty self-explanatory. Gays can not get children, and please don't come with the bs. about impotent heterosexuals, that is not exactly natural either. I really don't understand how someone can claim that being gay is natural, when just a quick look at our biological features show us the opposite. The forms of the sexual organs in a female and male plus the locations of the nerve endings clearly shows that sex was meant for male&female.

Another thing that points at why being gay sin't natural nor healthy is the fact that HIV among gay men is more than 44 times higher than rates among heterosexual men.

[GirlsLie]

Not everyone bases their moral value/code on what the bible teaches.

Marriage shouldn't involve religion in the first place, i'm not sure why it ever did or continues to.

As long as children are in a loving and stable home, then I don't understand why the gender of the two people involved matters at all.

Also if you're going to judge something as unnatural and unhealthy, based on the worst statistics possible about it. Then do you think straight people aren't natural or healthy because they tend to kill each other more often...

[Kalibie]

I don't know why you guys think Christians invented marriage, in that case you should ban the Chinese the Muslims the Indians and all atheists from getting married. Marriage existed during the dawn of men.

[epiman94]

"For the religious, I want you to imagine that whatever text you follow does not exist. Be it the Bible or whatever. For the purpose of my question, it doesn't exist. Because I am sick to death of people hating gays 'because God said so'. No. Not happening here. So it's not, "Why does God hate gays?" it's "Why do you hate gays?"

I'm sorry, but I cannot respect that at all. Someone with faith can't pretend it doesn't exist. It becomes part of a person's existence.
.
But to answer your original question while violating your rules as little as possible:
I don't hate gays, and in my experience God doesn't hate gays either. On the morality aspect of things: I myself am a very conservative person sexually. So homosexual 'relations' outside of a serious relationship is immoral to me, just as casual hetero sex is.

.
If you read all this, thanks for your time. We may not agree, but hopefully we can get along anyway. I'd like to see LOVE overcome the darkness of this world.
Thanks for making this take/question.

[Anonymous]

There is no way other than religious to legitimately say why homosexual acts are immoral. If there is no religion involved then it is simply an argument between people repulsed by gays and people who support gays. And in that situation nobody is truly right or wrong, it's just a power struggle between two different groups with two different opinions. Whoever wins the power struggle is not "right", they just overpowered their opponent.

That said God designed man to be male and female, with man coming together only with his wife. But we are not commanded to hate homosexuals, and we are not commanded to overpower them through the legal system to take away their rights. So gay marriage is wrong but it's something we simply must deal with even if we don't like it.

Why people are gay in a secular sense would probably be explained as a mental malfunction. Biologically all heterosexual species are designed to be that way, therefore the few examples that stray against the norm can be considered to have some sort of bodily or mental malfunction. But society doesn't really like to think of it that way because gay people are for the most part able to live in society without disruption.

As a religious person I think it may be a bodily malfunction but also has a spiritual aspect affecting the person. They did not choose to have it, but God wants them to resist it and faithe in Him to heal them or help them endure suffering from it.

[BaileyisDarcy]

You do make some good points.

With the idea of a 'malfunction' being the cause of homosexuality, I'm not quite sure if that could be considered accurate. Autistic people have a brain malfunction, people with anxiety and depression have a brain malfunction. Being gay, to me, does not fit. 1 in 68 children have autism. 1.5 percent of the US population have been diagnosed at least once with anxiety and/or depression. www.economist.com/.../economist-explains-3
I'm struggling to summarise that, but that's explaining how many people -may- be gay.

A heck of a lot more.

This may be me just not wanting to think of myself as having a malfunction, but I don't believe that with so many people 'suffering' the same thing, that it could be a malfunction. To me, if God does exist, it could be Him trying to curb the population in a more peaceful way than killing off all the firstborns.
(I'm not saying He does or doesn't exist, I just like to think I'm open to either possibility)

But thankyou for answering and sharing.

[Kalibie]

For all we know gay happened because God decided, oppsies. Over populated my Sims! And it's just natures way of cutting down the population.

[QuestionMan]

No not another gay discussion :(
If gays want to do their business they should do it in the privacy of their own homes and stop spreading their propaganda. It's gross and people are repulsed by it so please accept the fact that not everyone is comfortable with this lifestyle.

Marriage is the union of a man and a woman in hopes of having children and starting a family. If gays want to start their own family and adopt a child or have a surrogate deliver one, I am completely against it since a child needs a balance between a mother's and father's parenting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0xOGVw3KJE

If gays want to live together they can get a civil union it's pretty much the same thing is a marriage except it's open to every human being. A civil union by definition is a union of two individuals, so gays and lesbians can have the same rights as straight people without the definition change. Civil unions would allow gays to have their own festivities instead of copying what is already done by straight people. Their union is different and they should embrace that difference by having their own ceremonies instead of forcing straights to be ok with copying theirs.

That's all most people ask for "Don't ask, don't tell" if you're gay great do it in the privacy of your own home and don't publicize it, no one is stopping them.

There are very few people that are actively anti-gay and want to cause them harm. It is merely about being tired of the constant propaganda and being forced to accept something, most people are not comfortable with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTQeodDbQN4

[checkyesjulietx]

Then why should straight people be allowed to get married if they aren't going to have children? Your logic stinks. Also, some people are repulsed by a lot of things. That is no one else's problem. We shouldn't censor things just to protect their poor little feelings. If they don't want to see it they can walk away! Simple!

[QuestionMan]

@checkyesjulietx We can't control who will and won't have kids. I have nothing against gays living together, my problem is when they redefine marriage. Please read the part about civil unions again. I wish I could just walk away and let them do their thing in private but when it is being pushed on me from every direction I have only two options surrender or fight back. One things is certain I will not bow down before anyone, I will not sacrifice my beliefs. I will not stand for a tyranny of the minority.

[checkyesjulietx]

In my book, marriage is the union of people who love each other and who decide to show a commitment to one another. There is no need to make gay couples feel like outsiders in this union. If you feel like it is being 'pushed' on you 'from every direction' you need to reevaluate your life. No one is forcing you to take part in a gay marriage. You just let people live the way they want to live because at the end of the day it doesn't affect you despite your victim mentality. Just focus on your own life instead of trying to control others'

[QuestionMan]

@checkyesjulietx The union of gays is different than that of straights, I am merely saying that they should embrace the fact that they are different instead of assimilating. They can have their own ceremonies instead of copying ours and I'm certain theirs will be very interesting. It's like having a Chinese guy come to the US, change his name to Gary, stop eating Chinese food and start acting like a White guy. Why would you sacrifice what you have just to be like someone else?

Of course no one is forcing me to get married to a man but what people are trying to force me to do is give up my definition of marriage to accommodate a minority. I'm all for civil unions, and I refuse to identify a partnership of non-heterosexual couples as a marriage. I never said I wanted to control anyone's life quite the opposite I'm saying that I want people to do their thing in private and stop trying to indoctrinate me in their beliefs.

[checkyesjulietx]

Oh get over yourself! Why does the definition of marriage have to be so specific? It really shouldn't affect you. Marriage is what you make it. Loads of them end in divorce so the sanctity of marriage is hardly in tact as it is. Times are changing and you may as well get used to it. It is not assimilating to ask to be treated equally to your Herero counterparts.

[QuestionMan]

Why does the definition of marriage have to be so specific?
Because the purpose of marriage is usually to have kids and create a family. Yes it is something difficult and not many can manage it which is what makes the commitment so sacred.

"Times are changing and you may as well get used to it."
Why? Am I not allowed to hold my own beliefs if they do not adhere to your norms? Different doesn't mean better or worse and that is exactly what gay "marriage" is. That is why a new terminology is needed to describe it. Which is where civil unions come in.

Civil unions do not discriminate against homosexuals, quite the contrary the give them the same rights as heterosexuals and allow them to create their own traditions instead of copying those already established for heterosexuals.

[QuestionMan]

Forgot to mention you in the reply
@checkyesjulietx

[Kalibie]

Your just assuming Christians invented marriage eh? So if a gay man uses a Chinese wedding ceremony it'd be OK? Seriously...

[QuestionMan]

@Kalible I never said Christians invented it. I'm not even Christian.
Each culture has it's own traditions, there's Christian marriage, Jewish marriage, Muslim marriage and e. t. c.
What all of these have in common is that it's a man and a woman.
Gays are creating something new, a new type of union. It is not a marriage but it is a union nonetheless.
I would prefer to call it a civil union since it fits the definition.

[QuestionMan]

@Kalibie

[Kalibie]

Yes, but even if you aren't limiting it to Christians, that still means atheists shouldn't be able to get married either.
Let me just put it this way, marriage in this modern age is just law. You can argue gays and atheists shouldn't be allowed a religious ceremony, but that doesn't mean they can't have the same rights and be able to write their names on a piece on paper by law. A civil partnership is just not the same.

[Kalibie]

People who are married usually enjoy more benefits than those in civil unions, including:

Legal recognition of the relationship in other states
The ability to divorce in any state, regardless of where married
Tax benefits available to married couples only
Immigration benefits when petitioning for a non-citizen spouse
Federal benefits, such as social security, medical, and life insurance

[QuestionMan]

@Kalibie I'm an atheist lol.
Anyways as I said time and time again, I have no problem between a union of two individuals of the same sex. My problem is the changing of the definition of marriage.

They can call it a civil union and have the same rights. That's all I'm saying. Keep the DEFINITION of marriage as the union of a man and a woman but provide the same rights to all couples regardless of the union they take part in.

[ruskodisco]

In my opinion homosexuality is just about sex. I don't believe it's about love or any of that. I just believe homosexuals just want to have sex with as many as they can.
and there are plenty of gays i know that are all about the sex: https://nogaymarriage.wordpress.com/

www.nytimes.com/.../...choosing-to-say-i-dont.html

www.thedailybeast.com/.../...ant-gay-marriage.html

But as a religious person who believe in the bible, it actually says multiple times (not just Leviticus) about how homosexuality is a sin and should not be done.
It's not any worse of a sin the adultery or alcoholism. But it's a sin.

[checkyesjulietx]

I'm sure you also know lots of straight people who are all about sex? They are all humans what's your point

[ruskodisco]

of course and that's wrong. it damages people mentally and it is known that the more as person has sex the more likely they will have a failed or relationship.
you can be mad about it, but you can't deny it has it's adverse effects.

[Anonymous]

As a man who has struggled with homosexuality all of his life, allow me to answer.

The reason why God hates it, is because it is two men, shirking their responsibilities and duties as men, and forsaking a lonely woman who would otherwise be blessed by a kind, caring, sensitive man. There is literally zero work needed to have sex with another man. If you know the hookup spots, all you have to do is be there, and you can have sex however you want, with whoever you want. You may never even know what they look like.

It spreads disease, which is a burden, and a danger to society. According to the CDC, gay identified men are responsible for over three quarters of all new infections of STD, including HIV.

Now, imagine one of those men gets into a car accident, and he is injured. A bystander pulls him out of the car, and gets cuts, mingling their blood- now he has HIV. Is it fair to the good Samaritan, now he has been sentenced to death, because the man in the car chose to live a destructive lifestyle.

Gay men are more miserable than straight men. This is due to them trying to short circuit who they were born to be.

An anus is supposed to hold feces in until they are ready to be expelled.

It is NOT for sexual penetration or aggressive pounding. The human body was never designed to take that kind of abuse.

Sex is sacred, intimate, a beautiful dance of trust and love. Sodomy is none of that. It is one sided pleasure.

If you support "Gay rights" but are not gay, you simply have no idea what you are supporting. If you knew the truth about the empty, depression and rage filled lifestyles many homosexuals live with, I hope you would not be so quick to support something you know little to nothing about.

[Kalibie]

Yes but I know more women who do anal sex than gay men. What about lesbians?
I know gay men who were each others first love and have been together decades with children via surragacy.
If gay men was wrong for taking away from a possible straight relationship the amount of lesbians should balence it out.

[Anonymous]

Oh my, this place have become a gay and feminism debate site...

Here we go again:
he question.
"Why is it considered immoral to be homosexual, or commit homosexual acts?"

Because God intended one man and one woman, nothing else including many wife's. The law of Moses only temporarily tolerated having many wife's, Jesus made is clear for Christians it's one man and one woman period.

"Why do you believe gay marriage should not or shouldn't have gone ahead?"

I don't believe gay marriage has anything to do with the Bible, gay rights are a secular issues, for the state legislature, and my religious views doesn't matter for anyone but me. To say it differently, I am oppose to homosexual behaviour, but I don't expect others rights to be limited by my morals, you do have the right not to be a Christian, obviously.

"And why would people be gay, if it were 'unnatural or not meant to be?"

Unnatural is a matter of definition, it's clearly unnatural in way we usually define the word unnatural. But natural or unnatural doesn't matter, you have the right to be unnatural if you wish to be so, as long as nobody else is hurt then it's your right as a free human being.

[LetsGoRangers]

I'm religious and I'm fine with gay people. I feel the bible is not meant to be taken literally. The stuff written about gays was just the law of the land back then. A religion (Christianity) that's bases so much on acceptance wouldn't exclude people for their preferences (which is not under their control). And lastly, even if God does find it immoral, another core aspect of Christianity is forgiveness. According to the bible we are all sinners and all sins are forgiven. So I think people saying God tells them are either being misconceived or are just using it as an excuse for hate. Sorry for writing a small novel but I feel pretty strongly on this. Pleas don't assume all religious people are Bigots

[NovaLS]

I agree and disagree... the bible does not condone sexual acts and actually mentions it in Leviticus and in the New Testament in Romans. And its quite clear homosexual relations are a sin. However, you are correct that the people themselves are to be loved and accepted and many Christians miss out on the whole love one another part of it all. So basically love the person but not the actions.

[thetundrawolf]

You are correct, NovaLS. Some people have a form of religion, but no real relationship with God. It's not easy and even I struggle with it, but a relationship with God is a must. The Bible isn't to be taken as a work of fiction.

[runningislife]

You know love is a chmeical right? Gay people I don't even like using the word gay because it's been so bashed on that when people hear it they automatically feel like it's a virus or some sort. However gay people are just normal people. There's nothing PHYSICALY DIFFERNT ABOUT THEM. They may express themselves differently some are more Flamboyant about it and there's some who you can't tell their gay till their with their partner or hitting on another gay person. Not everything in life works out. Yes they can't have children but that doesn't mean they can't love someone. Love is a chemical Everyone can experience it.

[ThisDudeHere]

@creepycreeper Do you remember why we blocked each other? Because I can't remember any more and your opinions seem to be pretty cool, a shame I can't give you upvotes.

[ThisDudeHere]

Damn, he won't see this. Can anyone help?

[oracle12c]

Nope he blocked me as well, he is obviously very passive aggressive, blocking the first chance he gets AFTER saying whatever offensive thing he says.

One cool statesmen doesn't remove his passive aggressive trolling behaviour.

[ThisDudeHere]

Oh right... maybe that was the reason...

[Noxifer626]

I support gay marriage. In my country, we've had it for 5 years already and nothing bad has come out of it.