Where Does Persuasion End And Manipulation Begin? Is There Even a Difference?

[estoydorado1]

Ever since I was a child, my immediate family's relationship has been pretty strained. There was always plenty of suspicion and resentment to go around. So I grew up as somewhat of an island onto myself and learned to watch people and how to anticipate their triggers and desires. I would never ask for more than what I needed but because my parents viewed my brother and me as a burden and would give us grief if we said we were hungry or tired or something equally as innocent, I learned to rephrase my requests and alter my behavior to get the results I wanted.

By the time I was about 5 I had learned to set up a conversation so that they would do most of the talking within parameters I had set so that they felt in charge but that their ultimate decision was picked from a batch that wouldn't result in my punishment for asking a question or stating an obvious fact (I mean I was 5, I couldn't understand why they were always so mad at me). My parent's never really understood the details behind why they were all of a sudden unable to dispute the reasoning of a child in many situations but my dad has always told me that he is aware that I "manipulate" situations.

I'm now 19 and I prefer to think of my tactics as persuasion, I honestly couldn't lie to save my life. I know that I'm biased but my reasons for believing I wasn't being deceptive are the following:

1. I am always straight forward about my intentions.

I see no reason to justify something if I don't believe it myself... lol I can't afford to waste my own time like that.

2. I present obvious information to back up my pov.

If someone manages to prove me wrong, they're actually are doing me a favor. Why would I want to walk around sounding like an idiot? I've actually gotten into debates and wound up thanking the other person for educating me.

3. I let people come to their own conclusions based on the information that they themselves can easily fact check.

If I talk you through my thought process and provide evidence of my findings and you agree with me 100% and you still call that deception. Can you please show me where in the dictionary my actions are defined as deceptive?

4. I always tie my conclusions back to irrefutable evidence.

Like I said, I don't have time for nonsense.

My father to this very day still calls me "manipulative" and accuses me of "scheming". He says it like I'm some sort evil mastermind and uses it like a slur when I tell him things he can't deny.

I know being deceptive is wrong and I'm aware of how selfish and cruel manipulative people are.

My Final Point:

I agree that manipulation and persuasion share a goal. When attempting to do either of them you are trying to change a person's viewpoint and align that person with your own ideas. Where I draw the line is when you knowingly misguide someone for any reason (even if you believe it's in their best interest), and you use these lies to block someone from the truth and make them agree with your argument.

Persuasion is when you can show someone the entire truth and they are able to come to the same conclusion as you of their own accord.

Do you agree or disagree? Let me know why in the comments.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

When I look at this particular topic, I often refer to a scene in one of my favorite movies of all time, Dracula Untold; specifically the scene where Vlad actually becomes a vampire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFO5Np4ySLI&t=4s

Many people who watch this movie refer to the Master Vampire (That's the character's name, but I'm just gonna call him 'Faust' for this dissection) as a manipulator in this scenario who tricks Vlad into freeing him.

I say, when you listen to their conversation, that's not really the case. Faust is actually very open about not only the pros but the cons of being a vampire. He puts a huge amount of emphasis on how the transformation can ruin Vlad's life if he's not careful, almost appearing to be discouraging Vlad from going through with it.

And that's what makes him such a powerful character. He didn't have to hide things and manipulate to get what he wanted. In the end, Vlad still drinks human blood and Faust is set free.

No mind fucks.
No lying.
Let the games begin.

[estoydorado1]

Wow that's deep! Yeah, I've experienced this a couple times, I'll have people ask me for advice and I'll be completely upfront on why I don't think someone should go through with something (even if them not doing it is to my detriment), and they'll be like 'oh thanks for the the warning', I'm gonna put myself in this ridiculous situation anyways. Sometimes our ambitions can make us idiots lol.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

That's so slippery, I love it.

[estoydorado1]

Also, maybe I'm just emotional but whenever I see these Faustian pacts take place in books or tv shows I get so frustrated. I mean I enjoy watching the disaster unfold, but you know that mere mortals offering anything and everything to these all powerful, all knowing beings for a bit of power, knowledge, or money are just begging to be screwed over.

[estoydorado1]

What's slippery? lol

[FýrdracaDócincel]

He had a responsibility to his people and his family. I don't blame him.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

As in clever and sneaky.

[estoydorado1]

Yeah, that's true in this case I suppose, but in a lot of other stories, people are just really cocky about their ability to get out of the pact once they've got what they bargained for.

Haha I'm not sure what's clever or sneaky about trying to talk some common sense into the people I care about but I'm sure you can enlighten me.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Yea, that's stupid to think they can trick these beings who are beyond their comprehension.

I can.
I assumed that the reason you speak common sense into people is because you know they'll do the opposite to prove you wrong and you'll get benefits from that.

[estoydorado1]

Oh, you thought I used reverse psychology. I find a lot of times I wouldn't need to use that tactic even if I wanted to. A lot of times people will know how poor their chances of success will be (before they even approach me) and they'll still put their neck on the line. That's denial for you.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

It's still reverse psychology if you advising against it is helping them to do it.

[estoydorado1]

Well, they asked for my honest opinion, so I told them the truth. What I really like about your post though is that you highlight the decision maker's responsibility for their actions. Even in cases of deliberate reverse psychology, no one is forcing anyone's hand. When you mentioned your view on people's contempt for the master vampire I was really impressed because like you said, the master vampire painted a very vivid picture of the dark consequences of that power. People love to villainize people that seemingly 'knew better' as if that makes that person responsible for another adult's choices.

[FýrdracaDócincel]

In our society, we are taught to view power and evil as having a direct relationship. It's what is known as "slave morality," which is the idea that those who lack strength in their lives use concepts of right and wrong to shame those who are higher up than they. These people legitimately think they are fighting against the abuse of power, when in reality they are fighting against power because they don't have it.

It's like this, most people who say fighting is wrong can't fight. Have you ever seen someone who is good with their fists speak against squaring up? I bet you haven't and neither have I.

[estoydorado1]

Yes! And it's a vicious cycle too. When people classify power as an evil trait, gained through corruption or some other accusation, they effectively block themselves from attaining it. Which leaves them both cynical and "martyred".

[FýrdracaDócincel]

Thank you, that's what I've always thought. It's a very self-defeating and escapist philosophy.

[estoydorado1]

You're very welcome!

[pervertedjester]

I think as humans we learn quickly to word things to our advantage. Think of it as a survival tool. The question we should ask ourselves is, how much is too much for us. What we can personally put up with vs. how much we use it.

[estoydorado1]

True. I try to establish boundaries and not cross them though. Maybe I'm just paranoid but I worry about going too far with it.

[YepThatsIt]

Assuming honesty and no deceit I find that the only real difference is how successful you are. If you could, simply by telling someone, make them do anything it would certainly be considered some form of mind control. If you can talk them into it without them having a reasonable chance to disagree in the end, manipulation. And if you do a half-assed attempt after which they figure you might be right after all, persuasion.

So in my book, assuming no deception, the only real difference is in skill.
When you are persuasive enough that they will near certainly adopt your views, and you are aware of your own ability, it becomes manipulation.

[estoydorado1]

So you view manipulation as an advanced form of persuasion? That's really interesting, I've never heard that take on it before. I've only heard them compared as good or bad not attempting to explain vs. skilled communicator.

[rjroy3]

All manipulation is persuasion. The difference is manipulation is knowingly convincing someone of something that either does them harm/effects them negatively or just doesn't benefit them at all. The intent defines it. So if they intended good, but it goes south then it was their mistake. But it wasn't manipulation.

[capturemyheartnow]

Persuasion will end when you have told what you had to say. Manipulation begins when , when you start to make the person to believe what you say is the truth and wants them to believe you , no matter what if you are right or wrong.

[estoydorado1]

How do you know when someone has stated all of their evidence though? Think of it like a court case where you're trying to support your argument. A murder in the woods will take longer to resolve than a petty theft caught on tape.

[capturemyheartnow]

Court cases always involve manipulation of facts even if it is a clear cut case. In court case , all the evidence is never laid out. Some important facts are always kept hidden. Only facts which suit their individual cases are presented. And conclusions are drawn by trying to fill in the missing gaps by making assumptions and presumptions. All cases take their own time whether they are murder cases or theft cases. Sometimes the theft cases caught on camera , can fail if all angles are not properly covered. Or if the video evidence is not allowed to e filmed as per law. And if evidence and witnesses are unable to be properly fitted.

[estoydorado1]

I agree with all that you pointed out but I think I made my question more complex than I intended it to be lol. My bad.

In your post, you said "persuasion will end when you have told what you have to say". I was asking you how you can tell when someone has explained their point completely to their satisfaction?

[capturemyheartnow]

Nobody can explain their points completely. When I speak to you , I choose the best words which can fit in my conversation to give more or less a short idea of the big picture which I want to convey to you. So all persuasion discussions follow this methodology where you talk in short and sweet language. So information is fitted according to the time. If I want to tell you the story of Romeo and Juliet , I will not tell you the full story which could require one full day to tell. But I will tell you the story in 5 to 10 minutes only. So what you tell may not be exactly what the book says. So you will never get complete information in the strict sense of the word "complete." What I mean by saying , "You have explained completely" , is that you have said as much as you wish to say at the moment may be due to lack of time or due to your wish to be short and sweet. Nobody has the ability to keep on listening to another endlessly. So you should use limited time only.

[estoydorado1]

I see all of that, but a healthy conversation requires adjustment and evolution. So in the MyTake I point out that I have had encounters where I would tell the truth and people wouldn't be able to deny it, but they would tell me I was using manipulative tactics to persuade them.

In the MyTake I define manipulation as lying to convince someone to agree with you.
Where do you draw the line? Or do you think manipulation and persuasion are the same thing?

[estoydorado1]

*Where I put evolution I meant to say progression.

[capturemyheartnow]

A LIC agent tells his client about Insurance Product. He persuades the client to buy it based on merits. The client is not convinced. This is where persuasion stops. Then the LIC agant starts to manipulate the client , with consiquesces and difficulties and demerits , if the client does not go for insurance. If he does not go for insurance , the agent says the client and his family may suffer grave consequences. This is when the client who is manipulated by way of brainwashing , decides to buy the insurance policy. So manipulation is like brain washing where you indirectly control other persons brain. Persuasion is not brainwashing because you enable the person to take a rational decision based on his own best judgement. In your case you are manipulating the brains of your parents because they are forced to take the decisions which they would not have naturally taken.

[estoydorado1]

I see what you mean about playing on emotions and trying to cause guilt in that situation and in a lot of other ones as well. I can see that being defined as emotional manipulation or emotional coercion.

But I disagree that I was manipulative for the fact that I wouldn't guilt them into doing anything. I just learned that I should keep my wording simple and straight to the point and that I should word my request in a way that gives my parents the floor to talk. I would give minimum input and I would only voice an opinion if it was in agreement with what they already said and when I subtly supported them it would take the conversation slowly into an area that I knew wouldn't hurt me.

One time I was spanked when we got home because I had asked my mom to buy a toy and even though I left it alone and even forgot about it after she said no, she spanked me with a stick in the garage when we arrived home because she claimed I was ungrateful for asking for that toy...

[estoydorado1]

I prefer the term persuasion because I watched my parents and learned that they liked to have their egos boosted and simply agreeing with them could make them more open to listening to me whenever I talked. Mind you I was 5 years old so I wasn't being malicious I simply was learning how to avoid scary situations and put my opinions in terms that they couldn't find fault with. I would sometimes quote them and point out how good of a point they had made and highlight how my pov agrees with theirs. If you still believe that's manipulation then I guess we can agree to disagree.

[capturemyheartnow]

If I was your parent , I wouldn't get into your logic if I had a preset mind , and if I did not like you whole heartedly.----(Don't hate me for saying so. This is just a discussion)

[estoydorado1]

Haha, don't worry, I don't hate you. And yes that's exactly why I had to use "alternate methods" to communicate with them. I honestly don't think they liked me at all until I could perform all basic tasks myself. I think they felt cheated whenever they had to do something for my brother and I but we didn't really understand why we were always punished (that's when I got curious and started paying attention to the events and interactions surrounding their bouts of anger). I would tell them straight up what I wanted but whenever they would lecture me I would vocally agree with little tidbits that I could piece together in my favor and stay silent when I disagreed. It wasn't fool-proof obviously, but I was often able to convince my parents to listen to me at the very least because it's very hard for people to argue with themselves.. remember how I mentioned the ego? My proving that I listened to everything they said probably made them feel bad since they often accuse me of ignoring them.

[estoydorado1]

And It's pretty amazing but you can persuade completely illogical people into doing logical things if you can appeal to whatever makes them tick, whether it's their ego, greed, etc. If you understand what they want, they can sometimes wind up being the easiest people to persuade because they don't actually care about the details, they only care about what they can get out of it.

[capturemyheartnow]

Why do they hate you. Are you an adopted child? Or do they have less money to satisfy your needs?

[estoydorado1]

I think my dad accuses me of being malicious and deceptive because he wants to have a reason to be angry with me but when I play his reasoning back to him it doesn't stand up to the circumstances surrounding his evidence. I think he gets angry because HE can't even agree with his reasoning and he needs a way to turn the blame back on to me.

I know I'm faaar from perfect by the way, this is just me stating my observations and my pov.

[capturemyheartnow]

I think you need to have better respect for your parents. Parents too have their own set of problems which may not be of interest to you. I used to hate my parents and found their reasons very wild. But when I grew up , I knew that they very only doing as best as they could. They cannot be super humans. So we have to understand their sacrifices for us. Our welfare is all they are worried about. And as a child of God , you have to love them dearly.

[estoydorado1]

Sorry, I didn't see your post before my last response. My parent's relationship has always been pretty complex. I'm probably about to risk TMI but I'm not too stressed. I don't think my mom has really ever been that into my dad (they're now divorced and openly hateful to each other). I think she had this idea of the perfect family in her head and she wanted it, so she went through all of the motions, (i know my dad was smitten with her). She wanted kids so they had my brother and I (we are their biological children). I honestly don't think they understood the reality of raising a human being. I learned at a very young age that I shouldn't talk to them without having a strategy and trying to angle the situation so that I could leave the convo if they decided they wanted a fight. They never liked the fact that I had my own thoughts, like let's say my mom liked the color red and I liked the color blue, She states her preference and I'd chime and say my favorite color is blue. She would...

[estoydorado1]

... She would take it as a challenge and it would sort of rub her wrong that I didn't echo every one of her thoughts I guess. I think they thought raising children was simply feeding, clothing, housing, etc. and they were unprepared for me and my brother to have thoughts and opinions and desires beyond all that.

[estoydorado1]

I do respect my parents, I do what they say, I say please and thank you all the time even when my father called me a devil child and said I caused my parents divorce (simply because I told him that I wasn't okay with him calling my brother a retard and essentially useless, my brother isn't retarded btw) my only response to my father was that I would always remind my brother that he is loved and supported so his hateful words would never have any power.

[estoydorado1]

And I tell them I love them at the conclusion of every conversation. I truly do love them, and like I said I'm not perfect either but getting punished for their entertainment or power trip pushed me to observe what goes on behind people's actions and taught me to adapt to avoid obstacles or conflict while still saying my truth. People can think or believe what they want, live and let live is my motto, but I'm not 1 to shy away from my truth so I've found ways to make it work.

[capturemyheartnow]

How do you get along with other people? What do they think about your behaviour? Do you try to play wit words with them too?

[estoydorado1]

I really don't play mind games if that's what you think. I just don't enjoy conflict so nowadays if someone is being hostile or cruel I literally just end the convo. I was referring to a point in my life where I didn't have the ability to escape a very volatile situation and found ways to avoid those scary scenarios. I wasn't doing anything crazy I just realized that there weren't certain boundaries my parents wouldn't cross so if I literally made myself as inconspicuous as possible I could still say my piece without them being able to justify punishment. Again I wasn't trying to do anything crazy I just didn't want to get punished for saying I had a headache, no lie I used to get migraines and cry and my dad always said I was trying to emotionally manipulate my parents and he'd yell at me to stop crying. Eventually, we went to the doctors and they realized it was true but still. That's exactly what I was trying to avoid.

[estoydorado1]

*were

[estoydorado1]

I also can't really be character witness for myself because there is an obvious bias no matter how well intentioned I am. My friends and family haven't complained about anything though, a lot of times my friends will come to me for advice and support because they know that even if I have no clue what to do about a situation I have their best interest at heart. I don't really ask for anything either, people offering me things honestly makes me kinda nervous because it makes me feel responsible to return the favor. I've been called sweet, mature, and compassionate. When parents weren't in a bad mood they've oftentimes said I'm wise beyond my years and stubborn but ethical. (that's why I've said I think they were trying to find reasons to be angry, because they'll turn around and say stuff like that) again you don't know me personally and people can't be an unbiased personal witness. So for all you know I could be making this up, I'm really not but I'm also only one side of every...

[estoydorado1]

... interaction

[capturemyheartnow]

Your attitude to make people think and do the way you want them to think and do can land you in trouble especially in relationships. A girl who has the guts to do anything and everything to put the other partner at a disadvantage just because she knows the art to argue and communicate skilfully. I have read a few books on the art of negotiation , and this is a very skillful art. There are some Russian spies who can manipulate any type of American girl , who use such type dangerous NLP based communication skill to charm others. Have you succeeded in charming any guy with your wonderful skills. And later on they realized their mistake that they fell for you only because of your charm?

[estoydorado1]

Haha, I can see that (the suspicion and trouble my persuasion could potentially cause). I've never charmed a boy into doing anything tbh. I've had guys try to inconvenience themselves to help me and I've told them to their face to chill out and hold themselves to a higher standard. I'm not going to lie I still "people watch" to this very day. Now that I'm an adult and can voice my thoughts I'll tell people if I know they're acting shady and I'll hold them accountable, not much gets by me. The mere thought of toying with people makes me sick because I grew up somewhat oppressed. If anything I use my observations to get to know the people around me, I'm a great conversationalist and a great listener and the most I do with my observations is portray my pov in terms others can understand. An example is if someone is really passionate about cars and they tell me a story, I might later on use that story as a reference when I'm telling them about my love of animals. To sum it up I watch...

[estoydorado1]

... people closely and it helps me kind of overcome the barriers our perspectives may cause. At the end of the day they might disagree with my conclusion but they'll understand my starting point, and they'll know that I understand and respect theirs.

[estoydorado1]

Also, I'm not sure whether to be flattered or worried about your belief that I can change peoples' minds from 1 thing to something completely different but to clear it up, I'm not able to do that.
I'm simply good at telling what I believe in terms people can understand (even if I'm completely wrong). Have you ever had someone tell you something that you knew for a fact is wrong? Let's say that you were completely baffled by where they even came up with that idea. What I do is i think things through very deeply so I have a very clear understanding of how I came to my conclusion. Like I mentioned above, I gladly welcome anyone who can inform me. But my 'talent' isn't persuasion really, my talent is being able to explain my thought process in a way that has you sitting there saying, 'You're completely clueless *insert my name* but I can see the path that led you to your confusion. Persuasion is more like a by product of when I lay out my thought process and I'm actually right..

[capturemyheartnow]

Do you want to take this skill at a professional level? You will be paid handsomely if you can deliver results to your employers. If have read somewhere that negotiators belong to the exclusive club of the best 10 professionals. So make your skills count.

[estoydorado1]

.. Which obviously isn't 100% of the time but I think you know what I mean. Also, I think the key to my ability to make my point clear is my practice of 100% transparency, I'll openly admit when I'm wrong and I respectfully but openly admit when I disagree. If anyone pays close enough attention they can find the inconsistencies in a lie or an act. Me opening up completely actually leaves me invulnerable even when I'm making an idiot of myself lol. I think my ability to persuade people is mostly because people trust me and I try my best to deserve it lol.

[estoydorado1]

Wait.. what's the name of this profession?

[capturemyheartnow]

Your art of persuasion or manipulation is based on your morals. But it doesn't need to be that way every time. With family and friends , this method is all right. But when you are dealing with people you have to play by different rules. Because they will not be as truthful as you. If you lay out your clean slate in front of them , they will use that content to manipulate you because these people who talk to you are not truthful and their slate is not cleanly laid out bare for you to see. So always beware , people in the outside world and specially guys who want to charm you will play the game of deception to take full advantage of you.

[estoydorado1]

Omg! Yes to everything you just said! I honestly think that's why I'm so effective with my ability to adapt and maintain my 'voice' for lack of a better word in pretty much every situation. I know people are shady and manipulative. I hold myself to a certain standard because I know that I have to live with myself for the rest of my life. Honestly, my integrity means I don't have to keep a thousand variations of the truth straight, that leaves me free to observe other people and make judgments based on their actions. I'm well aware that humans are creatures of habit. I always approach people with the benefit of the doubt but everything they do is tallied up in my head and I am very detail oriented. I don't hold grudges or anything but once I've gotten your measure, I'll act accordingly. Like if you're a liar, I'll let you speak, but I won't trust a word out of your mouth and I'll check everything you've said.

[estoydorado1]

... If you're a narcissist, I won't bother to try and correct you, I'll find alternative ways to get around your ego. I'm aware in some situations avoidance isn't possible but when I can, I'll treat you like an obstacle and I'll find a way around you to get the solution we both want, but that your ego is going to mess up, etc... My skill relies on my ability to read people. How can I help someone understand me If I can't understand them?

[estoydorado1]

Oh, and yeah if someone is being shady, I'm not going to make myself vulnerable to them. I can be 100% honest and transparent and still have 25 strategies running through my head on how to appeal to that person meanwhile completely disagreeing with them. The best way to get people to listen to you is to actively listen to them. It is actually very easy to validate people while boldly disagreeing with them. It's as simple as saying I completely disagree with such and such (you have to be sure to point out exactly what you disagree with, showing that you were listening to every word), If you are able to show people that your statement can adapt and stand in the face of all unanticipated counterarguments people start to really pay attention.

[capturemyheartnow]

They are basically negotiators and stratagists and communicatiors with multiple skills-Hostage Negotiator , Contract Negotiator , Union Negotiator , Police Negotiator , Financial Negotiator , NLP Trainers. Negotiators can be employed in any industry Including Aviation , Defence , and in cross country agreements.

[estoydorado1]

Wow. I don't even know what to say to that. That would require a degree of some sort right?

[capturemyheartnow]

Use your brain , if you want to get far. Otherwise you can be satisfied in being just a saleswoman

[estoydorado1]

That's the truth. Thanks for the suggestion, I'll check it out.

[Anonymous]

Persuasion ends with men and manipulation begins with woman.

[estoydorado1]

You sound disillusioned. I don't doubt you've encountered any trouble with the female gender. Do you care to share your reasons for that statement?

[Opinion Owner]

My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek, although I have certainly encountered a lot of manipulative women... more than men, but men do it too.

[Opinion Owner]

PS - nice take. :)

[estoydorado1]

Haha thanks! And yeah I agree women tend to be natural planners at best and straight up manipulative in some other cases. My inspiration was sort wondering where people draw the line at someone making a solid point and a conversation moving towards a cruel sort of mind game. I feel like everyones' boundaries will vary and it's interesting to see what people think.