My Escape From the Slavery of Isolation, Brainwash, and Judgmentalism

[geonator]

What would you think of me if I told you I am a practicing Roman Catholic? You might think I have good values and care about people. Or you might think I'm judgmental, closed minded, and only care about ritual. Either way, I see where you're coming from and understand, and won't disagree.

The culture within Christianity has lost a lot of its core values. And I'm not saying that in attempt to move people away from it. I go to Mass every Sunday and accept all the Church's teachings. So what problem do I have? My problem is what the people have made of Christianity, not the religion or teachings themselves. And I'm confident you'd think the same way if you knew what I was talking about from my own firsthand failures, so here we go:

21st century Christians, especially Catholics, are often using the Church to isolate themselves from a world which makes them uncomfortable so that they can feel as though they're better than the rest of the world. As a result, they become judgmental toward the world and teach others to do the same. I fell for this same trend for a really long time, and I'm so glad I grew out of it. If you read through the Gospels, you'll see that this behavior is basically the opposite of what Christianity was intended for. While modern day Christians often write off interacting with people who partake in behavior that is "sinful", Jesus himself interacted with such people and was strong against criticism from the Pharisees (hypocritical Jewish leaders). He said "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners" (Mark 2: 17). Applying this to today, Christians ought to simply be accepting of people even if they lead a different lifestyle and just love them as Jesus would, unlike the Pharisees who considered themselves to be "holier than thou" and loved the pedestal they were on.

I can see the effects of this on others. I've heard from non-Christians that they find Christians to be judgmental and rude, and I don't blame them. If this is what they've experienced, what else are they supposed to think?

Ever since I got help in escaping my own isolation and judgmentalism, I've made a lot of friends outside of my religion including people who do things which are against Christianity. And I don't tell them not to, because I know it won't make a difference. But I love these people because God gave them as many good qualities as He gave to my Christian friends. In retrospect, isolation and judgmentalism just made my life boring and it had no purpose.

In summary, I hope and pray that Christians come to abide by the entire purpose for why Jesus established our religion: not so that we could cozy ourselves up with people who believe the same things as us or to put ourselves on a pedestal because "we're holier than them." He established this religion so we could be properly prepared to love and serve the world, as the Father has a long, deep desire to love and serve it. Let's integrate ourselves with the world as if we were anyone else, love everyone for who they are, and do good things.

[I-am-a-nobody]

First, let me say I appreciate your opinions most times and I agree with you a lot, but just not on this one...

"I can see the effects of this on others. I've heard from non-Christians that they find Christians to be judgmental and rude, and I don't blame them."

OK, Pharisaical behahior and acting "holier-than-thou" can be a factor, but sometimes non-Christians cry "judgmental" just because they enjoy their sin! Ever think of that? The people who embrace homosexuality, abortion and pre-marital sex aren't called judgmental too often, but take a stand on any of these and expect to hear "judgmental" being bandied about.
(Effectively judging the "judgmental")

I think Christians are too worried about offending people and not concerned enough about offending God. Christians shouldn't LOOK for ways to offend people, but if people get offended sometimes, we shouldn't jump to the erroneous conclusion that we did something wrong.
My question to you: Are you HATED?
You SHOULD be, by SOMEONE.
Jesus said...
“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you." - John 15:18
He also said,... "Woe to you when all men speak well of you, for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way." - Luke 6:26

Peace at any price is foolishness, yet... "so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men." -Romans 12:18

So, it's good to live peaceably with all men, but speaking the truth even in love will sometimes "cause" them to hate you.

"He established this religion so we could be properly prepared to love and serve the world..."

And sometimes (not all the time) that means "testifying that its deeds are evil" as Jesus did, which received hate in return.

John 7:7
"The world cannot hate you, but it hates Me because I testify of it, that its deeds are evil."

It's so easy to judge the "judgmental", but taking a stand for God will lead to false accusations and hatred and ultimately persecution.

2 Timothy 3:12
Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

I do agree that Christians shouldn't isolate... that's part of the reason I'm here.

[geonator]

Yeah, and I think both of us agree on most of these things. Definitely there are people who will hate us because of our morals no matter how charitable we are in presenting them. But in a lot of cases the problem is that Catholics and other Christians had presented the fact of the immorality of someone's actions that wasn't rooted in love, and that doesn't accomplish anything because the person just thinks they're being hated on and bossed around.

And yeah, if no one hates you then that probably means there's some work to do. Although I do have people who hate me, I can't think of any that hate me because of my morals. The thing is, we shouldn't hope for people to hate us, because that will lead to uncharitable treatment of others on our part. When faced with a decision of whether to do an immoral action or assert to someone that we cannot do this, the better thing to do is to charitably explain that this action will lead to harm (which all sin does) in an understandable way

[geonator]

That's better than telling them that its "against God's will" because they won't be receptive to that and, if anything, will be pushed further away from Christianity than they already were. If even after being charitable they hate us, then that is their problem and we can claim victory on it. But basically in any situation it's best to wait until morally necessary to say that something is "wrong" not because we don't want them to hate us but because they need to gradually understand that Jesus actually loves them and that refraining from sinful behavior is actually for their own good.

Basically, if someone is going to turn to Christ, it's almost always gradual and through experiences of love, not through experiences of people telling them that their behavior is wrong. But again, yes, if avoiding immoral behavior means people hating us then that's also a victory on our part provided that we acted charitably about it

[kaylaS91]

'I've heard from non-Christians that they find Christians to be judgmental and rude, and I don't blame them.'
-ummm.. you'll hear that from people of all religions/cultures/sexual orientations/genders/races about those who don't belong to a group they also belong to. I've experienced a multitude of occurrences in which a man who happened to be Muslim behaved in an extremely crude and distasteful manner. However, I'm smart enough to know that I shouldn't base my judgement of how I view millions of people (Muslims/men) based on the actions of just a small sample size.

'The culture within Christianity has lost a lot of its core values.'
-... such as?
Sounds like you wrote up this rant based on the actions of a select few Catholics who justify their actions with their religion. Something they're perfectly free to do, so long as it doesn't directly hurt anyone, and something which isn't exclusive to being done by them.

[geonator]

This wasn't intended to be a "rant." It was intended to show people that there is a more positive intended outcome of the Church's activity in the world. I'm reasoning for why a lot of the activity I've seen of people's arrogance from the Christian standpoint is counter productive to this and my life has been a lot better after I've resolved to not live my religion this way.

And no, it's not a select few of them. It's a good fraction of the ones I knew from Catholic school growing up (the adults included), the people I know at my current church, and the rude behavior I see within Catholic groups on facebook with people I don't know. I do know a lot of Catholics who are good and not like this, fortunately, but it's also good fraction that have work to do

[GAGSUCKS333]

and OP, what you are doing is just covering your eyes because the truth is harsh. There are a lot of close minded people who follow these religions because the principles have been enforced in such a manner to make people think that they are right and others need to ''accept jesus''. look at Hinduism and Buddhism for example. Both are what you call free religion, no official teachings, they believe you have your own path and they do not go to your door or stand outside telling you to accept and worship some deity.

[hellionthesagereborn]

I wouldn't disagree with your assessment, some times the dogma of the religion blinds you to the actual facts both of the world and what the religion was trying to preach. I am agnostic myself but having studied religions most of my life it always frustrates me when people try to claim that religion is evil and bigoted because that is far from the truth. Jesus's teachings where of not judging others, of not isolating ones self from others (as the jewish people had done prior), they where about understanding that we all make mistakes but that doesn't mean we have to be damned for them that we can change and in fact the most righteous thing we can do is acknowledge our wrong doings and try to fix them as well as trying to help others who have failed, made mistakes or sinned and help them become better people. However I will say I think that the "Christians to be judgmental and rude" is over stated. Its the loudest voice that is heard not the most numerous. Many Christians are quite about there faith and just do what they do and I think that's probably for the best as Jesus did not want people to convert (he even specified upon his resurrection to not go out to those who have faith like the Babylonians and the sumerians but to those who had lost their way (on another note if you look at the story of the good summerian he was actually showing that you did not need to be "one of gods chosen people" to be a decent person. In that time era the jewish people hated sumerians (and a lot of others people as well) so his point was that here was a hated enemy that did the right thing whilst those who had believed they where righteous and pure cared only for themselves. Thus he was trying to establish tolerance of others within his community)). So yes I think that there are issues within the religion but unfortunately their are issues with all ideologies, you will find intolerant people everywhere, its not limited to religion. So I think its good that you acknowledge the issue and do what you can to set the example that Jesus set. Compassion, love, tolerance and forgiveness is what Christianity is suppose to be about and I think there are more out there who believe this then you might imagine (over 70% of the US identifies as Christian yet you only see a few groups who seem to be intolerant, that means that you are probably part of the silent majority).

[I-am-a-nobody]

@hellionthesagereborn
"(he even specified upon his resurrection to not go out to those who have faith like the Babylonians and the sumerians but to those who had lost their way"

Actually, it was early on that Jesus told them to go only to the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" in Matthew 10:6. Later, after the resurrection He told them to "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." in Matthew 28:19.

[geonator]

It's also true that the apostles led by Peter and Paul started off just preaching to the Jews, and eventually after Paul's conversion he started preaching to the gentiles.

Yeah, it makes sense that over 70% of the US identifies as Christian but most of those people aren't super serious in Christianity and thus aren't gonna be intolerant or exclusive on that basis. A large fraction of Christians who ardently practice their faith do have trouble with tolerance and inclusion, but that also doesn't mean there aren't also a lot who are charitable and inclusive

[hellionthesagereborn]

@I-am-a-nobody I'm going by memory I apologize for inaccuracies, that is not how I recalled it. I must have blended the two together.

[hellionthesagereborn]

Who is to say who is and is not devout? As I said, many are open and kind and generous and others are not. I think its presumptuous to claim that most are not reasonable people, that most are bigots. I mean isn't that itself bigotry? To presume that since they are of a faith that they must therefore either be bigoted and closed minded or not truly believe? As I stated at first, yes some are close minded but as 70% of the American population identifies as Christian clearly most must be open minded otherwise our society would be vastly different then it is.

[geonator]

No I think your facts were right, I just went into more specifics of them

[BCRanger10]

I am a practicing Catholic myself, but I am not going to give my seal of approval to this one. Here's why.

First of all, what exactly are you trying to argue here?

Second, no, we are in fact NOT called to "simply accept" other people. We are instructed to "... make disciples of all nations..." (Matthew 28:19). Remember that scene with the adulteress, the "... let he who is without sin throw the first stone" nd that He didn't condemn her either bit? There's another part of that encounter that most people are either unaware of or - more likely - blatantly ignore. "Go and SIN NO MORE."

Then there's also this unsettling declaration from Luke's Gospel..."Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels."

This brings me to another point, when you said you don't tell your friends to amend their lives because you know they won't change anything. You're not off the hook. First of all, what makes you so certain that they won't? Second, you still have a responsibility to proclaim Truth to them. The Church even says that silence makes you an accessory to sin (Luke 9:26).

It took me many years of convincing to finally get one of my good friends to start going to Confession. And even now, I'm still working on him with the Second Commandment; he has made some strides. St. Monica wept and prayed daily for the conversion of her son, St. Augustine for 20 years. Just because it doesn't happen instantly doesn't mean it won't happen ever.

And since we're on the subject of Things Jesus Never Said...
www.churchpop.com/.../71.jpg

Read the writings of Sts. Robert Bellarmine and Alphonsus Ligouri on Hell. When you do, then you'll have a SLIGHT (and I don't mean that sarcastically) understanding of what exactly Jesus Christ saved us from. Read what St. Faustina had to say about her vision of Hell.

Now take note. Just because Jesus spoke bluntly and harshly does NOT authorize us to be hateful and judgmental, like one former member of GAG seemed to think. There is still a relativistic culture that we have to reach. We DO in fact have to develop relationships with people so that they may see authentic Christian charity exercised towards them. We must also pray and study. We have to know our faith so that we can effectively AND ACCURATELY share it (this is Truth Himself that we're talking about).

I don't think you're doing Him any favors with writings like this.

[geonator]

I find that I can both agree with everything you just said and defend the point I was making in this, which if I clarify it would answer the first question you had. The last paragraph you wrote here "Now take note..." is pretty much the point I was making in this MyTake. The point was that I find way too many Catholics just using the Church to cozy themselves up away from the evil in the outside world, where they can also have fun bashing everyone in the outside world (often inaccurate, because there are plenty of very good people in the outside world despite that lives aren't completely in accordance with moral law and thus we hope they eventually repent from certain things).

If we're using the Church for this, we're missing the point of it, because we are supposed to go make disciples of all nations. And you're right that we have an obligation to help people understand moral law, but it's not as simple as that because if we do it in the wrong way or at the wrong time then they

[geonator]

might resent the Church and not be any closer to understanding how the particular rule in question contributes to the greater good. Since we aren't perfect, we just need to allow Jesus to take over our will so we can know the right time and the right way to present something such that the person we are talking to will understand that it's for the best for them and others and see love, not judgment, in it. Jesus showed the adulterous woman love and thus gained her trust so she knew "not sinning anymore" wasn't just an arbitrarily judgmental command.

For instance, if I hypothetically met a homosexual and was becoming friends (just friends obviously) with him, the worst thing I can do is refrain from speaking with him on the basis that he's a homosexual. Then he'll just think I'm arbitrarily judging him. The way to do it is to let the friendship develop naturally so that he knows I intend for the best and so that the right moment will come up for Jesus to show me the way which is best

[geonator]

for him, which in this case is to look for the way to serve the Lord which is outside of romantic love and which he will be truly happy with. But again, this needs to come at the right time and in a way that he'll see the charity in it, otherwise he'll think it's arbitrary rules and judgment and it won't accomplish anything

[Wontstop]

besides the fact that your way off on so many things the Roman Catholic Church is occult in nature nothing good is gonna come out of there and there trying to create a one world religion so they have to target Christians and confuse them, same with Muslims, and any other religion

IM A BIBLE BELIEVER IM ALLOWED TO BE JUDGE it is permitted read the bible

the difference is I can not cast final judgement that's up to GOD and by no means do I think im better I JUST KNOW FOR A FACT IM 100% CORRECT NOW ITS NOW OUT IN PUBLIC

also you are confusing the issue the Bible is a literal book not metaphorical

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God

the Bible is a warning Book not a Book of flowers and pure happiness, as a bible believer are job is to warn the people of what is coming,

GOD IS ONE SIDED ON THE SUBJECT HIS WAY OR GET OUT

Revelation 2
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

WHEN GOD COMES BACK HE IS GONNA SAY MY WAY OR GET THE HECK OUT

and the people will make there choice,

I TELL PEOPLE HEY LOOK THE EARTH IS FLAT WITH A DOME OVER IT
GOD IS REAL
flatearthscienceandbible.files.wordpress.com/.../img_0039-1.jpeg

and if you think there nice about it no they deny physical evidence cause they do not like the idea of a GOD ruling over and im one sided on the subject now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAcp3BFBYw4&t=45s

ITS EITHER GODS WAY OR GET THE HECK OUT

[TrollG0D]

I agree with you said (especially Catholicism being an idolatry occult), except for the earth being flat. I don't know why you believe that.

[Wontstop]

@TrollG0D

its in the first page of the bible
and when you take the 60+ verses it describes a flat earth

GENESIS 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

Job 37:18
Hast thou with him spread out the sky, which is strong, and as a molten looking glass

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool

Job 9:6
Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble

https://www.testingtheglobe.com/images/YTC5.jpg

flatearthscienceandbible.files.wordpress.com/.../img_0039-1.jpeg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAcp3BFBYw4

[TrollG0D]

I've done my research on this before and I think you have a personal interpretation of what these verses mean. Your verses describe a flat round earth. Because in contrast to the supposed “flat earth” verses, there are numerous verses that clearly indicate otherwise.

The earth is described as being suspended over empty space, implying a spherical figure. Like in Job 26:7.

(Job 26:7) "God stretches the northern sky over empty space and hangs the earth on nothing."

(Pro 8:27) "I was there when he set the heavens in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep"

(Mat 12:40) "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

[Wontstop]

@TrollG0D
its hung on nothing cause its set on pillars not cause its in space im sorry bro we all have been lied too the earth is flat

1 Samuel 2:8
for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them

Firmament in Hebrew - It denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body

Genesis 1:8
And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

Heaven and Firmament are the same thing

so lets look at this verse again
Pro 8:27
I was there when he set the heavens (firmament) in place, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep"

and I Quote Auguste Piccard
flatearthperspectives.files.wordpress.com/.../flat-earth-memes-194-10.jpg

Mat 12:40
this is speaking when he went under the earth to hell for 3 days too pick up the elect in Abrahams bosom to take them to heaven

[Wontstop]

@TrollG0D

here you go bro watch this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8jVJR9zSEs

[Wontstop]

Genesis 1:7
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

[TrollG0D]

Again. You have a personal interpretation of what these verses mean. Every verse I posted are to be taken literally and not to make your own assumptions on.

Are you apart of the biblical flat earth society? Because once again, in contrast to the supposed “flat earth” verses, there are numerous verses that clearly indicate otherwise. Does this mean some parts of the Bible are wrong? No. Because the earth is round and your verses describe a flat round earth.
Read this case on biblical evidence for a round earth:
www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c015.html

I'm no advocate for secular organizations like NASA, and you're free to believe what you want, but things such as space flight, satellite communications, and space photography did come to existence out of nothing. Simply because the verses where written in a time where cosmology wasn't understood to the level it is today, doesn't mean we live on a flat earth.

[Wontstop]

@TrollG0D

NO I TAKE THE BIBLE LITERALLY
like where supposed to unless told other wise

example Jesus says im gonna tell a parable simple not hard to understand
and yes read it in Hebrew

and yes NASA IS LYING
robschannel.com/.../NASA-deceive.jpg

[TrollG0D]

Good. You need to tell the Catholic idol worshiper QA to follow the Bible the same way.

But to answer what you said; The writers God used to produce the Bible were not inspired to write about things of the natural world that were beyond their own worldview and knowledge base.

Therefore the verses you stated reflect a common ancient Near Eastern perspective about cosmology. The Bible even speaks about unicorns, but the word "unicorn" had a different meaning in those times, the way "firmament" did.

[Wontstop]

@TrollG0D

Genesis
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so

do you really think the higher power is gonna tell everyone hey religion you where right GOD exist that changes everything science, jobs, HOW PEOPLE THINK, plus they tried to break through it already
Operation Dominic
Operation Fishbowl the waters above the Firmament Heaven
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8jVJR9zSEs

[Curmudgeon]

Things Jesus Never Said? How about things Jesus actually did say:

[GAGSUCKS333]

and what of the other nasty quotes from him and god?

[Curmudgeon]

@GAGSUCKS333 What of them? The point is, attempts by the political Left to denigrate the Lord on one hand, and then try to hide in His robes on the other, are pathetic and blatantly dishonest.

[GAGSUCKS333]

ah I see. So either be with it or dont.

[starbucksjr69]

A lot of religious people are/can be cool, but intimidating sometimes. I'm not a fan of any religious practices so I feel extremely uncomfortable when they try to make me follow their beliefs

[geonator]

That's why I don't try to make people follow their beliefs. If they end up following ones beliefs naturally it will be after a while of them thinking about it and deciding they agree with them. They won't be any more likely to do that if we force them

[Iraqveteran666]

Im afraid you and I have had a different experience of the Catholic church

[geonator]

Everyone was really nice in your experience?

[Iraqveteran666]

Of course it's the Catholic church not ISIS. The church gives young people a great grounding and does great work amount the Catholic community. You see the same thing among the Jews, Mormons, Muslims, Presbyterians, Baptists etc in various degrees. I always feel sorry for those raised outside the church and faiths not just for what they lose in spirituality but also in community and material and educational benefits. Though I will say as a Catholic I am jealous of say Presbyterians for instance and some others though yes they have to pay like a 10% tigh of their earnings their church does give them pratically intrest free loans to start buissnesses, buy land, buy a home, college etc though on the condition they sell only to another member of the faith and shop wherever possible with a member of the faith. I think Jews and Mormons are the same.

[geonator]

I agree with most of the second half of that. And yeah, communities do a good job of cultivating community and faith building among young people, but my point in this post was that a common failure is people's ability to properly represent Catholicism for people on the outside. A lot of people are very justmental of people on the outside and that's not what the Church was meant for

[Iraqveteran666]

But thats people in general even atheists and people in other religions

[geonator]

Yeah of course

[Iraqveteran666]

Let me ask you were the judgmental people reasonably well off?

[geonator]

You mean financially well off or what? If so, yeah, most of them are.

[Iraqveteran666]

Well there you go. That's very common.

[sedrftvgyhujik]

A business where you only sell to others of the same faith sounds really restrictive especially if you want to take it online for most businesses it's not practical to vet every customer nor is it good for business?

[Iraqveteran666]

@sedrftvgyhujik not only sell goods and products to your own faith. It's more to keep property and buissnesses in your community

[sedrftvgyhujik]

Ok misinterpreted that.

[Iraqveteran666]

@sedrftvgyhujik as I say I admire that but then if you flip to coin some of those churches will not look after you in any way if you do not pay your tithes and regularly attend church.

[Anonymous]

religious people are only religious because they FEAR God they dont love him. but believers LOVE God and focus on his mercy not hell. dont let the rules in the bible scare you focus on God not your sins

[geonator]

Totally agree, I've had to grow into that myself

[G-Daz]

I'm proud to be Catholic.

It's interesting that much of the west traded Christianity for Islam and that catastrophic result of that is obvious

[Kakaky]

Still crazy over Jess.

[geonator]

That's a good thing

[Anonymous]

The number of Christians is becoming lower every year. This religion is funny.

[Kakaky]

Are you Muslim?

[Opinion Owner]

@Kakaky I am.

[TrollG0D]

Your problem was going Catholic in the first place. Catholicism is completely different from Christianity, the same way Mormonism or Islam is.

You're better off far away from Catholics.

[geonator]

If Catholicism is completely different from Christianity then why were the Catholics and Orthodox Christian the main players in Christianity for centuries including this immediately following Christ? It took until the 1500s for Protestants to decide they'd do their own thing

[TrollG0D]

You've just answered your question for me. Catholicism basically was Christianity in the beginning, the times of the first millennium pope (Pope Peter - One of Jesus's disciples).

But Catholicism started branching out from a church to a government supervised money collecting establishment and caused the Protestant reformation.

Today Catholicism has completely branched out on it's own from the teachings of Jesus Christ that Peter carried and is basically an idolatry occult. What the Catholics passed to each other today is completely different from biblical teachings that should followed by Christians.

[geonator]

Yes, that's why there was the counter reformation because some smart people actually realized things needed to change after Martin Luther broke off.

And no, apart from the times that humans have done stupid things with the Church, the practice and teachings of the church aren't different than what they were at the time following the apostles. What you're calling "idolatry" is only us asking those who have made it to heaven to pray for us. In 1 Peter 3:2 Peter tells us that the ears of the Lord are attentive to those who are righteous. The people in Heaven are righteous, they've successfully accomplished what we hope to accomplish, so their prayers for us are heard very readily. Our prayers are heard as well but we aren't as close to God as them We aren't worshipping them, we're seeking their counsel just as a medical school student might seek the counsel of a friend who has successfully become a doctor.

[TrollG0D]

This is where you completely lost yourself in this discussion, once you start endorsing praying and worshiping other people like you and me rather than God himself. This is exactly why Catholicism is an idolatry occult and very separate from Christianity.

What basis do you stand on to endorse getting on your knees and praying to other human beings? There isn't a single biblical verse that allows you to pray to anyone other than God himself. Every biblical indication you can try to find will tell you to pray directly to Him (Do your own research if you don't believe me).
Plus lets use logic here, what exactly is praying to a "saint" going to accomplish for YOU?

As for your Peter 3:2 reference, what makes you think once you get to heaven you become righteous? You have to live according to the biblical plan left to us and be righteous before you can enter His kingdom. This is exactly what I was talking about, Catholicism moving away from the Bible and making up their own conclusions.

[geonator]

You didn't actually take time to understand my point with "praying" to Saints. We don't pray to Saints in the same way we pray to God. When we pray to God we invoke the intercession of the Holy Spirit so that our fill selves may be devoted to glorifying and thanking the Lord for His perfect goodness. When we speak to Saints, we are only talking to them as if they were another human being and asking them to pray for us. And because the Saints, unlike me, have already been made righteous by their death and the sacrifice of Christ, they are close to God and their prayers are more direct than mine.

And yes, you do have to become righteous to get into Heaven. That's why, since the saints are in heaven, we know they are righteous.

So no, Catholicism isn't making up it's on conclusions. In fact, Protestants eventually completely abandoned the use of the Sacraments except on purely symbolic grounds. All Christians practiced all the Sacraments for 1500 years and believed the same things

[geonator]

About them as Catholics believe today. Then Martin Luther broke off, only changing a few things. Then eventually his followers through the last few centuries gradually dropped practices that were alive for centuries.

[TrollG0D]

You spoke a lot to basically say nothing. And you've failed to answer my Qs 😪

What basis do you stand on to endorse getting on your knees and praying to other human beings (This includes asking "saints" to pray for you)? There is ZERO biblical evidence telling or even recommending you to do this. Where did you get this idea from? From the failed Catholic church.

Plus, although you have no idea whatsoever if these supposed "saints" are in heaven (you're concluding from your own judgement that they are), what is praying to "saints" going to do for YOU?

If they've done what they needed to do to get there, it's up to you to do it too so you can make it as well. What they say has zero impact on your relationship with Him. All prayers are handled exactly the same way, no "saint" is superior to any of us, they're prayers aren't any closer to God than ours are, if you're righteous to begin with your prayers are already close to God.

[TrollG0D]

& The Protestant did right. Whatever sacrament you speak of that holds no basis in biblical teachings, like that "praying" to saints nonsense you tried to pull, needs to be thrown out. it has no business in a church.

No wonder you were easily swayed, Catholics and their failed church ruined your faith.

[geonator]

"What you spoke says nothing" when it comes to TrollGod trying to shut down the Catholic Church, but otherwise it actually says a lot.

We don't need everything we believe and do to be explicitly stated in scripture. We know from Scripture that you need to be righteous to get into Heaven and that the Lord very readily hears the prayers of the righteous. It is philosophical common sense based on these two conclusions that if we speak to people in Heaven to ask them to pray for us, their prayers will be very well heard. You telling me not to request this of these people because it doesn't explicitly say to do so in the Bible is like me telling you that you shouldn't wear a cross over your neck because it doesn't say to do so in the Bible.

The Church only concludes if someone is in Heaven based on miracles that happen on Earth to confirm that that soul is in Heaven (these wouldn't happen if they weren't in Heaven). And I already told you what asking the intercession of Saints will do to

[geonator]

me. Since they're already in Heaven their prayers are more direct than mine.

And if the Catholic Church is failed, how did it survive 2000 years worth of it's enemies trying to destroy it?

Oh so you believe in predestination? You believe that you are either righteous your whole life or you're never righteous? Because righteousness only comes from the sacrifice of Christ which is a gift to all of us. We aren't made righteous except by the sacrifice of Christ through our own deaths

[geonator]

And no one "does what they need to do" to get to Heaven. Jesus did what it took for us to get to Heaven. If Jesus sacrificed to help us, and we accept his help, we help others as well and we also accept others' help from who is able to give it to us

[geonator]

Baptism holds biblical basis. Jesus told his apostles "who's sins you forgive are forgiven" and that's how we know we have the sacrament of reconciliation. Jesus told us "Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life" which is why we have the Eucharist. And no, the latter isn't a symbol. What would eating the symbol of Jesus's flesh accomplish? If you pay me to wash your car, and I wash the symbol of your car, I didn't accomplish the task

[TrollG0D]

You wrote a four post essay in detail on heretic nonsense 😴

Did you really think using four posts would give credibility to your trash? On top of that you failed to answer my Qs despite using four posts. What's next? An 8 post reply? This is where I get off. Your catholic brainwashing won't work on me.

A simple summary of the heresy you posted would be this:
- You don't need the Bible to tell what you need to do as a Christian.
- "Saints" are in heaven and their prayers are superior to ours.
- Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for us therefore we can do and sin however we want

This is exactly where the Catholic church failed. Everything we need to know as a follower of God is inside the Bible. Now you can have your little idolatry occults but do not go around pushing as biblical truth. Especially with ZERO biblical evidence whatsoever. Please. & Jesus himself explained that repenting and following him is the one and only way to enter the His kingdom.

Enjoy your brainwashing ✌️

[geonator]

Now you're just turning to rudeness and immaturity to try to prove your point

What does the fact that I used four posts have to do with whether those four posts are wrong or not? And those three things you listed you aren't actually explaining why you think they're wrong. And I didn't say that we can sin however we want, no one is perfect and we're supposed to turn to Jesus' sacrifice to save us from whatever sin we have. Without his sin we can't be saved. And I already explained to you why our interactions with the saints does not fall under the definition of idolatry, but you hold on to that for dear life because you really would love to shut down the Catholic Church.

By the way, not everything we need is in the bible.
"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." (John 21:25)

Now YOU enjoy your brainwash ;)

[John_Doesnt]

So you escaped being molested by king pedophile?

[geonator]

That's not a problem in the church anymore.

[John_Doesnt]

Not according to USA Today: www.usatoday.com/.../
How gullible do you have to be to think that they stopped molesting kids?

[geonator]

Do you have a US example? Because in the US is where they took extensive measures to prevent the scandals. Probably other countries as well and Guam was just behind a bit

[John_Doesnt]

"they took extensive measures to prevent the scandals" they took extensive measures to cover it up by paying off the families of the victims. It's pathetic that anybody still trusts that castle full of pedophiles.

[geonator]

That's not all they did. You're taking just the information that helps you to further hate the Catholic Church. There are all kinds of rules now about molestation risks and how everyone involved in the Church is required to be aware and take actions to prevent and stop molestations. And these rules also prohibit certain risky scenarios involving priests and children. Stop dwelling on the past and ignoring information which inhibits your arguments

[John_Doesnt]

www-tc.pbs.org/.../Bishops-Council-Chart-b.png
s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...346c213ba7.jpg

[geonator]

Yes, that picture shows the rates are decreasing over time, and the Church is still working to instill precautions so that they even further go down. Thank you for helping to prove my point

[John_Doesnt]

Decreasing, not stopped. Meaning they still molest kids. You said "that's not a problem anymore", but it still clearly goes on. Probably going down because parents are smart enough to stop sending their kids to be an "alter boy" or basically a priest's plaything.

[geonator]

Because I still attend the Catholic Church, I know you're wrong when you say that parents stop sending their kids to be altar boys because I see them still do so. The regulations on such things are what has and will continue to help decrease the numbers. I'm not gonna stop believing my firm beliefs just because other people who believe them have done stupid things. I'm not gonna stop believing in freedom and justice just because some US presidents have unjustly killed people

[John_Doesnt]

The Catholic Church website says that church attendance is down. Their own website admits there are less people going to Catholic church.

[geonator]

Yeah, church attendance is down. That has nothing to do with the argument you're trying to support. You can stop going through extensive measures to prove your point because I'm not leaving the Church just because some people in it have done stupid things. Under logic like that I should leave the world because people in the world have done stupid things

[John_Doesnt]

You should leave the church because it continues to do stupid things.

[geonator]

The Church doesn't do stupid things, the people in it do, and those people aren't living their lives in the Church properly. I'm not gonna leave the Earth because the people in it do stupid things they're not supposed to do in the Earth, same with the Church

[John_Doesnt]

So you follow a building and not what some guy in a white hat says? Funny, that's not what the Catholics usually say. You eat fish on Friday because the Pope orders you to and you blindly obey.

[geonator]

The Church (with a capital C) isn't a building. With a lower case c it is. The Church is the institution set up by Jesus Christ which is meant to bring charity and justice to the world. Those priests were not doing their job in accordance with the Church's teachings because their actions weren't charitable and just. And we don't "blindly" obey the Pope. It's the job of the Pope and the bishops around the world to interpret the teachings of Jesus Christ and apply them to specific scenarios in everyday life, which is why they are required to go through intense studies to prepare for this. I trust their interpretation more than my own, even though I still use my own, because they are trained to do so.

The more you use rude words and literary tones, the less likely I am to think that your logic is sound because it simply expresses your biased hatred of the Church

[John_Doesnt]

Definition of church: a building used for public Christian worship..
You can make up whatever you want, but the facts are different.

[geonator]

That's the definition of the word church with a lower case c, as I already mentioned and you wanted to bypass to get your own way. The Catholic definition of Church with an upper case C is the institution set up by Jesus Christ

[John_Doesnt]

Jesus never mentions the word "Catholic" throughout the entire bible. Find me the passage where Jesus says "Catholic". It's not there and you're just making stuff up.

[geonator]

Jesus also never said the word 'Christian". So why do we call ourselves Christians? Because that was the name given later when the disciples were in Antioch. your claim that the word "Catholic" shouldn't be used because it was started by humans other than Jesus is an attack on all Christians for calling themselves "Christians" because their name was given by humans other than Jesus.

When the schism happened in early Christianity, what were we supposed to do besides call each side a name? If we're not supposed to give the west side of the Church a name, we would have been calling it "the west side" this whole time

[John_Doesnt]

You call yourself Christian because of the English language: meaning follower of Christ. If Jesus never established an actual church during his life than you are not following him very well.

[John_Doesnt]

And yes I am attacking all Christians because your religion is ridiculous for following a cosmic Jewish zombie.

[geonator]

What reasoning do you have to support that he's a "cosmic Jewish zombie?"

[John_Doesnt]

Comes from the heavens (cosmos) and rose from the dead and was a Jew. Aka: a cosmic Jewish zombie.

[geonator]

zombies are basically still dead after they start walking around because they have no life in them. Jesus had his life completely restored

[John_Doesnt]

Nobody has actually seen Jesus anymore than people have actually seen zombies. We've got eyewitness reports from wingnuts, but no actual evidence of Jesus or zombies.
He's dead and nobody has actually seen him since.

[geonator]

Well just twelve apostles were enough to eventually get the spread of Christianity around the entire world. In my opinion that couldn't have happened without a higher being involved but you can disagree with it if you want

[John_Doesnt]

How is that any different from the small group of people who spread Mormonism or Scientology?

[geonator]

Mormons and scientologists didn't have people constantly trying to kill them and also had more modern technology with which to spread their word

[John_Doesnt]

Mormons were imprisoned and killed. Scientologists have been sued and called a cult. Both had to fight for the right to call themselves a religion in America.