Blurred lines of consent

A few days ago, a friend of mine posted an article on her blog about a time in the past when she went to Las Vegas with some girlfriends to celebrate graduation. During this trip, as with many younger people who go, a lot of partying and frolicking with the other sex went on.

The point of her blog entry was not to share those kinds of antics, though. My friend went on to say how one thing led to another at the end of the night, an athlete had taken an interest in her which of course was flattering. She woke up the next morning to be in his hotel room with him laying right next to her and his friend on hte bed opposite to theirs congratulating the athlete on 'getting the hot ginger'. The entry concluded by her saying it took a long time for her to come to terms with what had happened. That she had been sexually assaulted, raped, relived the moment on an almost daily basis between counselling sessions to help her cope. That she didn't remember if she'd said yes or not at any point before she collapsed in bed, completely inebriated. Which, might I add, seems pretty standard for many drunken hook-ups.

Blurred lines of consent

The difference? She was in a 5-year long relationship at home. She had been so intoxicated that a recollection of whether she was even asked for yes/no consent was way past retrieving. Knowledge of whether the involved male also regretted their encounter or felt violated by it was unknown.

This story stuck to me a lot as I, too, went through a similar experience. Different in that it was in my home-town with a guy I was dating and actually lost my virginity in that very way. I know what it feels like to go through the self-blame. That you got yourself into the situation. If only you had controlled your alcohol intake and been more rational in your thinking, it never would have happened. Then the doubt of whether it was even assault or just you being stupid and careless, because the state of shock you had been rendered you unable to scream 'no, no!’. He didn't hit you or hurt you in the typically physical way as often shown in Hollywood, didn’t lunge on you while you were walking alone at dark, so how can you even prove or really know the extent to which you were harmed?

You feel used, like a piece of meat. Whether it was a stranger or someone you knew for years who used you as a sexual accessory then threw you out as if you were disposable.

I read the blog entry to my boyfriend yesterday. He's very much aware of what had happened to me years ago, so I suppose I was seeking some support. What I got instead was him saying he can't lay blame on anyone as we only got one side. That essentially the only thing that really could have 'forced' my friend, and by proxy myself and any other women in similar situations is themselves. You could plead 'but I was drunk', which by law dos make an individual’s consent invalid.

But what if the guy was also drunk. Did you rape each other, in that case? If you get into a motor vehicle accident while intoxicated, can you slip out of that by saying 'sorry officer, I've been drinking and was not cognitive able to render my temporary mental state unsuitable' and be granted nothing but a stern warning?

When you look at the situation in that way, obviously not. Yet the emotional pain and almost disgust with oneself following such encounters is very real. Once you've lived through it yourself, it's no longer so black and white. Bringing some truth to the blurred lines.

Blurred lines of consent

Did you say no? Did you try to push him off? You did leave with him so that was basically implied consent...

In the end, you ask yourself how you can define what consent even is. Does it need to be verbalized? Is every drunken encounter between a couple legally rape then, with the negation of consent while alcohol is involved? How come nobody every checks in with the usual male participant, who may be victim-blaming just the same for reasons like the societal image of a 'real man' having the sexual prowess of a tiger? Perhaps in some cases, men make sexual advances out of peer pressure with their friends egging them on and them knowing that if they don't 'get with this girl', they'll never live it down.

While making clear-set end points for what constitues consent seems like a good solution, in reality that seems very impractical. Things are getting hot and heavy with you and a partner or perhaps someone new, making out is slowly building up to more when the guy or girl leans back and asks 'but wait! May I have your consent for sex before we continue?' Should they pull out a copy or a legal consent form so it doesn't result in more 'he said, she said'?

1 2

Most Helpful Guy

  • I am not blaming the female entirely. I am not blaming the athlete entirely (as much as I would like to). Rape is never ok and it is never the victims fault. However... LIFE IS NOT FAIR AND IF YOUR PUT YOURSELF IN A STUPID SITUATION... YOU MAKE IT THAT MUCH EASIER FOR STUPID SHIT TO HAPPEN. This is an age old story of people getting intoxicated and doing stupid shit. There is no doubt that partying will mostly attract players. There is no doubt most young guys... especially the "athlete" type are most into fucking a girl / having a good lay / using them for sex THAN anything further.

    List of things your friend should not have done:
    1) "During this trip, as with many younger people who go, a lot of partying and frolicking with the other sex went on." - If you already know all this shit then why go their in the first fucking place and expect shit to not happen. Lets go to vegas... people party n fuck there... i have a boyfriend. Oh this ATHLETE is flirting with me... this is vegas where people party get drunk n fuck... i have a boyfriend... but lets continue this because OMG Athlete *flattering*. Oh lets get shit faced drunk... even though people come to vegas for partying drinking fucking and i have this ATHLETE in front of me showing so much interest...

    2) Get heavily intoxicated.
    3) Go out with her piece of shit so called "friends" who let this situation unravel in such a fashion.
    4) "an athlete had taken an interest in her which of course was flattering." WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK? #1 She has a boyfriend. #2 Seeing he was hitting on her... she should have called it quits right there. #3 If her primary reason for attraction is MAN MEAT aka athlete... then why expect the reciprocal to be any different aka a piece of ass and tits.

    You want consent? Learn to not put yourself in stupid situations. Rape is shit and rape is never okay... but your are not helping yourself if you act idiotically and immaturely.

    • yeah of course I agree with most of what you're saying. Not the easiest thing for me to do as I've been in a similar situation as her only when I was not dating anyone, but it was still pretty traumatizing nonetheless. The only defense I could have for your first and fourth point is that sometimes, if situations like hers with the athlete all happen in one night, it'll be way too fast to really think things through clearly. Obviously not helped by teh fact that she was already drunk when she met him. I had something very much like that happen this year, where a guy from the gym who I talk to quickly jumped from friend to asking me for sex and other similar lewd comments. We got along great and ngl I still loved the compliments. I turned down offers for sex but was torn with rejecting going for coffee.

    • I was in a relationship that time so asked myself what could he even hope to gain from that coffee? Pretty clear that he was hoping it would lead to sex so of course I turned it down. I'm just sharing that because I can relate to her situation through that situation which happened to me as well. The thing that differs is that mine happened over the course of a few weeks, so I had time to think it over, weight the pros and cons of what was appropriate, etc.. She had it all thrown on her over the course of a single night, much less a night where she was white girl wasted. Not saying she's free of blame, but with similar things happening to many girls quite often and men always by default getting punished, I wish there was a way to prevent or deal with it that would be more applicable than 'don't stick your dick in crazy'.

    • Well I am really sorry what happened. Good thing is its in the past. Hard to do... but try to leave it in the past. I would say you are in no way different than you were before... as in you are not any less of a person in any way. BUT you should learn from your mistake and learn to be more careful. I agree some of these situations can be hard to judge / think about correctly but hopefully with some precautions something like this will not happen. I really like how you wrote a take on it and reaching out to other people to inform about it. I think if you and your friend can speak about your experience and protect other girls / women from making the same mistakes then that would be quite awesome. In my opinion... if you are looking for relationship rather than sex. No guy would pressure you for sex and do anything you are not comfortable with. Players / bad partners will hold sex over you.

    • Show All

Most Helpful Girl

  • People know what alcohol does to them. They know it impairs their judgment especially with excess drinking. Yet they do it and still put themselves in vulnerable situations.

    Your friend didn't deserve what happened to her.
    But she has to take responsibility for her part in this.
    If I were intoxicated and shot someone , would I be looked at as a victim?
    If I were intoxicated and beat a child to death , would I still be a victim?
    No.
    I could plead my case but guilty is guilty.
    I hope your friend learns from this and make better choices in life.
    If she only chooses to pass blame and not look at what she could have done differently , the same scenario will happen again just with a different person.
    it could even be much worse next time.

Scroll Down to Read Other Opinions

What's Your Opinion? Sign Up Now!

What Girls & Guys Said

10 33
  • Your friend does not remember what happened, at all, according to your description.

    This means that there is no way to know if a rape occurred, or not.

    She was (again, according to your description) drunk, so much so she cannot remember saying yes/no. So she has no ground to stand on regarding rape.

    I have a friend who once drove home while black-out drunk. I am not kidding, I was in the car with him. He has no idea how we got home that night, he insists that I must have been the driver. I tried but that night he was not about to give up the keys and I was not interested in actually fighting for the keys. The fact that he can not remember a single thing about the drive does not mean it did not happen, it means only that he cannot remember it.

    Consider the following:
    I allow a friend to stay at my house one night.
    We have been drinking, I got quite drunk.
    The next day I cannot find something valuable to me, which I am fairly certain but not positive was in the house the night before.
    I cannot remember mentioning anything, or not, about it to my friend.

    Is my friend criminally liable for stealing from me?

  • My personal opinion on consent: An ENTHUSIASTIC yes is required to continue. If you don't have this then you shouldn't continue. In regards to making every situation where two people have drunk sex rape... there's too many things to consider. It really has to be handled on a case-to-case basis.

    • "An ENTHUSIASTIC yes is required to continue." From both people? If they just rip each others clothes off and get at it are they both guilty of something?

    • Both people would have to consent to avoid legal difficulty, yes.

  • Drinking, drugs, etc. involve risk. Getting behind the wheel of a car or being in places you shouldn't or putting yourself at sexual risk result from over-doing it. The consequences can be violent. While rape is always wrong no matter what, women can do lots to stay out of situations which might result in rape. It's sad that women have to be so watchful and on guard so much! sigh :(

  • More than "Blurred lines of Consent", this seems to be more about drinking. And not just irresponsible drinking.

    Young people have always seemed to be drawn to drinking. It is nothing new. But it seems to be more of a thing that young people seem to think is the right thing to do than they have in the past. There are laws on this for good reason. but youth ignores them. There are many stories out about these kind of things happening, but again, these are ignored.

    When teens drink, they usually tend to continue drinking. Drinking is to get drunk. Being drunk causes you to lose your good sense and logic. So the lifestyle of drunken partying is asking for bad things to happen. Not necessarily rape, or even anything sexual. But bad things of some kind. It is sometimes fighting, sometimes drunken driving (very often), sometimes sexual wrong doing, etc.

    Why is it that so many people (yes, even older people) have trouble enjoying themselves unless they are drunk? If they would stay sober, the question of were they too drunk would never come up. And even if you do not drink, going where everybody else is will put you in the company of a bunch of drunks.

    Interested in keeping yourself safe? Do not go to drunken parties.

    • (sorry for the accidental downvote) By blurred lines of consent I mean things get hazy once either partner, usually the girl, is intoxicated. People are pretty split in deciding who was wronged, how much liability each individual involved should be held too what with their cognitive reasoning having been impaired and all. I'd be more pro-drink responsibly, get a group of friends who will look out for each other when you go to the party together. Alcohol seems to be something popular among young adults because it gets rid of most inhibitions. Helps everyone relax. I don't think doing away with it completely would be really necessary, everyone should just become better acquainted with their limits and stop by default siding with the girls who cry wolf because they fucked up.

    • The downvote is fine. I am used to them. lol. I know that you meant things get hazy when intoxicated. My point is that drinking parties are almost always for the purpose of getting some level of drunk. And once that level is reached, the inhibition to stop is gone. "Alcohol seems to be something popular among young adults because it gets rid of most inhibitions." Exactly! And getting rid of inhibitions is what causes these problems.

    • Spot on! I was a Command Master Chief in the Navy and one of my jobs was to educate Sailors how to not get into these kinds of situations. Statistically, it's not even close. Any time I had an incident on my ship - I could conclude almost immediately that alcohol was involved. I don't want to slam alcohol - as a retired Sailor, I sure enjoy my fair share of rum... but not to excess. You have to learn to drink responsibly... for me that's ONE SHOT of 151 in any social situation and maybe TWO if I'm at home at night and know I just have to walk upstairs and slink into my bed!

    • Show All
  • People make "consent" way too complicated.

    Sure, it can be "verbalized" ... but we humans use a startling number of physical cues to communicate with other humans.

    If there was one thing I would change, it would be the attitude that many of the current crop of younger men have about sex.

    Guys... sex isn't about "robbing" a girl and speeding away in a getaway car.

    Part of a real man's sexual "prowess" is making the girl feel good about the encounter. If you don't do this... you sucked. Sex isn't just the act of copulation - it's the whole experience, and how the girl thinks about it as she walks away from it.

    But - I will not relieve women of responsibility here either. In the stated case - girls and guys when out and got drunk. The woman claims she was too drunk to properly consent. I would wager the men were too drunk to properly ASK for consent.

    Let's get real here... the whole situation could have been avoided by staying away from it - that was her primary mistake. She got drunk... around a bunch of drunk men... and things happened that she regretted later. There's no sexual assault here... just a suspension of common sense.

    But she has to blame the men... otherwise she'll have to blame herself for her lack of common sense.

    She should take it as a learning experience and move on. Unless she's pregnant, she's been done no irreparable harm. She needs to take the lessons onboard and ensure she doesn't put herself in a situation like this again.

    Back to men, and this idea that all "consent" must be verbal. In general, I find verbal consent to be "non-romantic" and boring. I have verbally asked for consent few times in my life. I can pick up on the girl's body language... I'll proceed if I see positive signs and QUIT if I see negative ones... even subtle ones. Come on people - we know this isn't hard.

    But guys... you need to understand that sex isn't ABOUT YOU. It's about HER and making her walk away from the experience feeling like you're the greatest guy in the world. It's not about how "big" you are or your "stamina" ... or how "good looking" you are. It's about your ability to craft an overall experience for a woman that leaves her thinking you are better than every other man out there.

    THATS the challenge you ought to pursue. That's really what makes you "better" and "stand out" from other men.

    • Wow you summarized exactly how I feel about it and wrote up a perfectly reasonable take on this whole issue pefectly, a fair perspective from both sides. If I could give MHO's for mytakes, I would certainly give you the honour! :P

    • By the way... there was ONE occasion in my life when a girl hesitated, and it was right after SHE herself told me what she wanted from me. I mean... it was literally about 30 seconds after she told me she wanted me. And... right at the moment of truth - I sensed a change in her body language. I asked her... "What's wrong?" And she said... "I'm scared". So I said... "It's not a problem, don't feel bad about it... I don't." What I'm trying to say here is that there is a danger in trying to distill "consent" down into verbiage. She had already given me verbal consent. And she wasn't going to remove the consent verbally... until I picked up on her body language and asked her about it. Consent is not something you can distill down into a process... it's multifaceted. You can't distill it into a law. Colleges that are attempting to do so now, will fail.

  • There is a pretty defined line between Rape and Regret.

    If you had sex with a guy, and regret in the next day, That does not mean he raped you, that just means your drunk ass made a stupid mistake.

    Rape sucks, But... as i said, This is regret, not rape.

    • She was drunk, it was rape

    • Pretend my comment isn't there

    • NO, Just because she was drunk DOES NOT mean it was rape, It means she was drunk and made a fucking stupid mistake and regretted it. If a girl fucked a drunk guy and the guy regretted it, you wouldn't say he got raped would you? so why is it any different the other way around?

    • Show All
  • You get too drunk to even remember whether you have consent or not. Which indicates that you are too stupid to know your limit and to stay within it. What right do you have to blame a guy you hooked up with if you were too drunk to even remember the whole thing?

    I wish women would just stop victimizing themselves and antagonizing guys if they have done a stupid mistakes. Own it up as your stupid mistake, and move on. It makes me embarrassed as a woman that there are still women who like to play the rape victim card when they are the one who are too dumb to drink responsibly. And it makes me feel bad for the many guys who have been blamed for rape just because the girl later regrets her decision and just seeks a scapegoat. Those girls need some serious spanking.

  • This is one of the reasons, I don't have sex with a female that has been drinking.

    A female goes out has a few drinks, goes with a male somewhere has sex. Wakes up the next morning, does not like who she had sex with and all of a sudden she was sexually assaulted and raped.

    • But it was not your fault, even worse is the fact she doesn't even know if she caught a infection/disease. Could even be unprotected sex and so on

  • Drunk sex is always tricky. Who tells you that the guy she slept with wasn't even more wasted than her? Do we decide who raped who by their level of drunkenness?\
    Why do we always jump to the conclusion that HE raped HER and not the other way around.
    I know it's fucked up and it's a painful experience for her, but we only know her side of the story. What if she actually said yes? If he's intoxicated too he wouldn't have thought "oh, she said yes but since she's drunk it probably isn't a good idea".

    It's not an easy situation.

    • yeah I agree. Seems like putting clear definitions on what would make up a universal given consent would be appropriate, but there are just so may variables that change with each case that wouldn't work too well. Guess people, both sides, should just be super cautious when hooking up drunkenly and do what they can to avoid situations like this altogether!

    • Actually making choices not cautiously is the very definition of being drunk, so i don't think you can actually tell drunk people to be careful.

    • @TheGuyFromMiddleEast Maybe. That's why in Canada, at least, if the individual is intoxicated, their consent to have sex is invalid according to the law. Decision-making and rational thinking may be impaired when you're drinking, but you're certainly capable of telling people to be cautious with their decisions when they're sober, before the alcohol comes into play.

    • Show All
  • if you get drunk and have sex then thats your fault. I don't know about other people but when im drunk i completely understand whats going on around me. i dont make the best choices but i do understand whats going on. if 2 drunk people have sex then thats their choice. being drunk is very dangerous. its your own responsibility to protect yourself and everyone knows that being intoxicated puts you at risk. if you choose to drink then have a friend with you or watch how much you're drinking.

  • You make some interesting points but this is why my parents taught me not to even put myself in these situations. Don't want to get too drunk? Don't take the first drink. Why should the drunk man be held to a higher standard than the drunk female? At some point people need to lwarn to take the consequences that come with their actions.
    Sorry if I sound cold but if you're going into a drunken party/rave environment and choose to participate then don't be surprised ir expect sympathy when you wake up naked next to a stranger.
    Maybe next time take your friends to cirque de solie.

    • The waking up naked next to a stranger was my friend from high school, not me. I agree though.. it's pretty easy when you first hear about something like that happening to an old friend, to sympathize with her and feel like she was greatly wronged. With a bit of time to digest it though and not be so influenced by the biased tone in which her blog entry was written, I do agree with you. At a certain point, you do have to realize you're not 100% helpless. Sure, alcohol may hinder your ability to think reasonably and according to your morals to a certain degree, but I'll assume no one forced you to take those drinks so...

    • Oh yes I understood it was your friend? I'm using the word "you" in a general sense as this kind of thing happens all the time.

  • I've taken drunk wasted girls home just to walk away three times. They just laid there not even remembering my name... I felt like I was a piece of shit when I even kissed the firsts one and she didn't know who I was. I walked away from her letting her sleep it off naked (I covered her) on my couch. Happened with two different girls after that where I could have but didn't sleep with them. I let them know nothing happened, I just knew if I messed up my family would defend me to the grave. I didn't want to give them a reason to have to

  • Go to a strange city to party.
    Meet some hot guys.
    Get drunk while partying with them.
    Go back to their hotel room to continue the party.

    And your surprised that sex happened?
    Regret for cheating on your boyfriend does not make it rape. Regret for loosing your virginity while drunk to a stranger does not make it rape.

    Regret =/= Rape

    • How dare you claim that women should be as responsible for their actions as men! :O Don't you know, alcohol does not affect male judgement, only female?

    • Wow lol. You're a terrible person. Maybe it should to you

    • *happen*

    • Show All
  • Stopping and saying "is everything okay? Are you okay with this?" Does not ruin the mood, we do it all the time in BDSM. But both parties have to understand that when one says no, it ends. And a woman who does that to a guy has just performed "Coitus Interuptus" same as when a guy cums early. It sucks, but a gentleman understands and excepts. I am not a fan of the double standard of a guy finishing and wanting to end it and the woman shaming him for it, but a woman ending it, and the guy is expected to take it well. As for both parties raping each other it usually comes down to the first part who call rape. The accuser is immune from prosecution by the fact that they are the first to say that they are raped (this was added to the law to prevent this, "he raped me,""well you raped me" back and forth)

  • Guys just don't socialize with girls that have been drinking that day/night. If they are drinking stay away from them. If you want to talk to a girl at a party make sure she isn't drinking then you should be fine and not have this blurred lines problem.

    • No point to go to bars or parties then.

  • While obviously it is scum from the guy to take advantage of a drunken girl - let's face it. She is in a diferent city, go all out drunk to the point she has a blackout and then she want pity?

    No, thanks. No pity from me. It's plain stupid.

    Additionally there is a difference between passing out from being drunk and taken advantage of and being violently dragged into a quiet place and forecfully penetrated.

    • who says the guy was taking advantage of her? maybe she took advantage of him and is just regretting her decision the next day now that her sex drive has been satisfied.

    • @Jager66 Might be. I frankly don't care though. Both got excessively drunk, had sex, shit happens, deal with it. If you get drunk, you know the risks.

    • Additionally it's just mocking actual traumatised rape-victims.

    • Show All
  • Honestly? Don't be so ridiculous. We can't call it rape everytime we have sex with someone we regret.

    • I don't think I ever said 'every time' but quite often I hear about stories like that. Usually in the news, but most recently when this friend posted her story on her facebook and received nothing but sympathy from all friends, close and not so much, family, co-workers, etc..

    • Sympathy for what? Getting drunk and making a mistake?

    • sympathy for what she referred to several times in the blog entry as having been 'sexually assaulted/raped'. I guess for having fooled around with someone without given consent, in the context of not remembering blatantly giving it the next morning though.

  • I'm a frequent drinker, I'm prone to blackout drunkenness, and I know one day it'll get me in over my head. That being said, almost anyone who drinks more or less regularly, can always see the blackout coming from miles away, If you don't want to go to *that* place all you have to do is NOT DRINK that one last shot. I just enjoy my drunken antics way too much to say no, and make conscious decision to get shitfaced. But if I feel that situation might get out of hand and get me in sort of trouble I can't handle on tomorrow I just don't go there.
    You're an adult, it's not your first time drunk and you know full&well what effect alcohol can have on people and especially how it affects you. Whenever you see that this or that drink will push you over the edge and make you lose control (and you don't feel comfortable losing control in this particular situation) just put down the fucking glass and enjoy yourself, you're probably buzzed enough for it to last a few hours.

    • yeah of course, I'm aware. The friend of mine to whom this happened to, the Vegas thing, was not a frequent drinker at all. Not that it makes this any more acceptable of a situation for her to have gotten herself into. She was pretty conservative, saving herself for marriage till she lost it to her current boyfriend with whom she's been with for over 5 years now.

  • Great stuff! You make a lot of valid points about what consent actually is and how does one go about getting it so there's no equivocation about what actually happened. Your last paragraph is spot on and is something I brought up on another posting a while back as the only real "solution" though it's largely impractical from a romance standpoint.

  • Never happened to me. Lol im so nice that not even drunk women are attracted to me. So To me, this is all academic. two people got drunk, threw their name away (as one does), move on... whatever.

  • Show More (23)