The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

Why do guys have sex with some women, but want to marry others?

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

In popular culture, your average woman can be divided into one of two categories: the Madonna or the whore. Think about the women in your life, unknowingly you've probably already sorted them without you realizing it, but where did this dynamic come from? The Madonna-Whore complex as it's often called, can first be attributed to the father of modern psychoanalysis, Sigmund Freud (yes the same man who thinks that all women wish they had penises... what can you say, they can't all be winners) who stated that a woman belongs to one of two camps: the "saintly and pure" Madonna or the immoral "bad-girl", the whore.

I think you can already see the problem here: people, women included aren't as simple as black and white, we don't all fit neatly into one of two little boxes. You can't really blame Sigmund can you? I mean times were different back then, we knew a lot less than we do now...

Then why are we still having this conversation now in 2016?

“Where such men love they have no desire, and where they desire they cannot love,”

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

That's what good old Siggy had to say about the subject, meaning a man in a good, loving relationship cannot feel true sexual arousal towards his companion, and a man cannot form a good, loving relationship with someone he sexually debases. You have women you admire and women you find sexually attractive and never the two shall meet! But surely in this new enlightened age we have done away with such frivolous labels, you cry! Surely we know that it's quite possible to love and be sexually attracted to someone in this day and age! Except, the idea that men still sleep around with the “whore” while searching for their “Madonna”, their marriage-option, still pervades modern culture.

But why the dichotomy? Why do you sleep with the “whore”, but you don't want to marry her?

I believe it has a lot to do with religion as a whole. Think about the Madonna, the mother of Christ in Christian religions: so virtuous and pure that she conceived a child without ever having sex! The Madonna is the antithesis to modern female sexuality, and for the more conservative lad, the epitome of the sort of woman he sees himself marrying. This directly correlates with the belief in stricter monotheistic religions that sex is inherently wicked, and that sex outside the confines of marriage is even more so. Of course you have the men who believe in no sex before marriage, but overwhelmingly it appears that it's supposed to be women who abstain, while men give into their “baser” desires with the “whores.”

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

Which leads me to another likely culprit perpetuating the Madonna-Whore complex: slut-shaming.

I can hear the angry cries already, but put down your pitchforks for just a second and hear me out, because slut-shaming is a very real thing.

With the Madonna-Whore complex you have a valued psychoanalyst saying that yes women can be sexual beings, but because of this, we cannot respect them; just sleep with them until you find your wife and then settle down with a “good” girl. This idea that “good” women aren't supposed to be sexual creatures persists to this day, though I can't imagine why. You have studies that show that women like sex as much as men, masturbate as much as men, and yet any woman who shamelessly pursues sex is a slut, or a whore.

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

Let me let you in on a little secret, sex is not bad. Regardless of what your religion and what your parents said, there is nothing inherently wrong with sex. Between two consenting adults (or more, I don't judge) it can be a truly beautiful thing. Not having sex doesn't make you “good” any more than having sex makes you “bad”; not that there's anything wrong in saving yourself if that's what you truly want to do, but there IS something wrong when you begin to think less of others for not.

I would say this comes back to Christianity but slut-shaming is something that a lot of people, not just Christians are guilty of: I do believe this all still stems from some religious guilt in regards to sex itself. This idea that men are sexual and women are not needs to just disappear: humans like sex, if we didn't our species would have died out long ago. You will have sex with your wife, and it won't make her any more “dirty” than any other woman who had sex before they were married.

Sex isn't bad, you got that?

So my final thought on the Madonna-Whore complex comes from good old Sigmund Freud yet again, (what can I say, even a broken clock is right twice a day), and stems both from his belief in the Oedipus complex and the actual psychological definition of the Madonna-Whore dynamic. In psychoanalysis the Madonna-Whore complex often arises when a man is unable to see his wife as a sexual being (arising from what I said previously, about men wanting to marry the “Madonna”) and usually manifests itself when their wife has a child: because their wife is now a mother, she is no longer viewed as a sexual option.

But wait, you say, didn't you mention Oedipus?

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

In case you don't know, Oedipus was a man in Greek mythology who killed his father and married his mother. Freud took this a bit further and developed the Oedipus complex, which was his belief that all boys want to have sex with their mothers at a certain stage in their development. Now Freud was known for spouting some crazy stuff, but this one is rooted in a little bit of reality; men want to marry their mothers just as women want to marry their fathers.

Their mother is often the first experience young boys have with women, and as such they often placed on a pedestal (see my other Take) and idolized as the peak of feminine perfection. Their mothers, their ideal woman are not a sexual being (how can they be, when they are the Madonna personified?) and so they are turned off by the idea of being intimate with another literal Madonna, their wife.

The Madonna and the Whore, Or the Good-Girl vs. Bad-Girl Dynamic

Now I'm taking the Madonna-Whore complex beyond it's mere psychological definition to extend to the idea that women are either sexual or not- using the Oedipus complex, a man wants to marry his mother, and as his mother is not a sexual being, he does not want to marry a sexual being, a “whore”.

So, what can we do about this?

Well for starters, we can stop the idea that sex is a bad thing; it's this idea that sex is “evil” that causes some people to paint women that enjoy sex as wicked (I say women because men are not usually shamed for having promiscuous sex). We can stop the idea that we have sex with some type of person and marry another, when both are valid sexual and romantic options. And lastly, we can realize that humanity is much too wonderful and complex to break down into one of two categories; people are not black and white, we're various shades of gray, and it does us a disservice to shove us into a box, especially when neither box is mutually exclusive.


We're all Madonnas, we're all whores, and we're every little thing in between.

9 2

Most Helpful Girl

  • Great take! I really agree with you on this! I feel people definitely put women into categories of either Good girl or Bad girl. But I think most women are a blend of different things. And for some guys that's hard to deal with.

    I haven't had a successful relationship yet. It seems like whenever I meet a guy, I don't mean one of his expectations and he's gone. I think sometimes it's due to being shy and quiet at first then when we get together I am more open sexually to them. So they start to see me as more slutty and maybe they just don't like that. I'm not entirely sure.

    It just sucks because I should be able to enjoy sex too. My ex boyfriend loved sex and I enjoyed sex with him, and I thought things were going well. But he cheated on me. I think part of it was due to the fact that I am still a bit shy in the bedroom. But his experience intimidated me. And instead of suggesting things to try, he left it all up to me to decide what we could do. Which I didn't know much as I'm kind of naive when it comes to sex.

    I think when it comes to the Good girl vs Bad Girl dynamic, it can be hard for women to walk the line in the right way for some guys. It's like some guys want to have sex with the bad girl, but then only want a good girl to be the mother to their kids.

    It's not fair to put women in this position, they should be allowed to enjoy sex too! Just because a lady enjoys sex, doesn't mean she can't be an incredible mom!

Most Helpful Guy

Scroll Down to Read Other Opinions

What's Your Opinion? Sign Up Now!

What Girls & Guys Said

10 30
  • This is why many men cheat in my opinion. Men marry someone they don't want to f@$k. Which is unatural. So they end up going back to the "whore", because the "virgin" is a bore sexually.

    I dated a man who didn't have a good sex life with his wife before marriage and then wondered why she would not have sex with him after. Smh!

    A happy man is one who can realize that you don't settle for one or the other, but picks a women who meets his familial needs as well as his sexual needs

  • You will never be able to change the minds of men & how they select women, no matter how many essays you write. NO high value man will choose a promiscuous woman to settle down with. Men are biologically driven (NOT religiously) to select a woman who isn't promiscuous. I'm stating FACTS, not my opinion. Sorry to disappoint you, lady.

    • I disagree this is biological - more societal (derived from religion). If she is a lady - no matter how many partners - most decent men wouldn't care.

    • @peterjones I'm glad you would want to marry a woman who jumps into bed with you on the first date, really. You are a VERY high value male indeed. You go, Glen Coco! :')

    • @GoldenWing Don't know Glen Coco (will have to look it up) - but I can tell you I only ever got disappointed in girls if they DIDN'T sleep with me as soon as was practical - in my books, you can't really know the person until they do (and I definitely never held it against any of them or though of them less - if anything, it was more). Not as a forced thing - but once the attraction and interest is there - why the heck not, that's what it's meant for - to meet as a boy and a girl, and to enjoy it.

  • I'm thoroughly enjoying your takes! This was great!

  • I've commented on quite a few similar ideas on this site.

    For a multitude of natural, social and societal reasons, men gravitate towards ultimately wanting a girl that is... as virginal as possible. On the other side of the coin, women overwhelmingly tend to want men that have proven they are desirable and have sexual experience. At least beyond a man's teenage years.

    Both genders ultimately want the complete opposite sexual status in a partner. In order for a man to meet the requirements of the future women in his life, he goes out and begins to build up his sexual experience. Not only for them, but also a man's natural proclivity towards various forms of polygamy throughout history. Men want variety. Powerful men used to have multiple wives, concubines, mistresses, etc.

    So, men tend to want to build up their sexual experience in their teens/early 20s. However, women aren't exactly segregated into two groups titled "Sluts" and "wife material" and even if they were, most guys would rather attempt to talk a girl that has had no or limited partners into bed, even if it means lying to her, because they will be viewed as cleaner and more fun/challenging. Men don't really want to have sex with sluts if at all possible, it's just that sluts tend to say yes and its the best some men can do.

    Women generally aren't going to tolerate 25 year old virgins. They guys are going to be deemed losers. With each tick of the clock it actually just gets worse for them, so men do what they can to gain as much access to pussy as possible to set themselves up to be desirable when they are stable a bit later in life and ready to find a wife.

    Now, I'm certainly in the camp that thinks that judging someone by how much or how little they've had sex is idiocy. If I were to meet an awesome girl that I found attractive and that I clicked with and her only "crime" is that she had the audacity to enjoy sex with various people throughout her adult life, then I'm not going to hold that against her.

    Ultimately, you are right. Religion plays a huge part in indoctrinating people into believing that sex is this oh so sacred thing and that people should feel ashamed to even think about doing it, particularly with someone they aren't *GASP* married to.

    Beyond that, I think people are just kind of selfish. They want to be that person to whom their partner is giving them this magical, one of a kind gift of access to their genitals.

    • There's a really interesting documentary that I enjoyed called the Science of Sexuality which kind of touches a little on what you mentioned here. It talks about how women are attracted to different guys based on where they are in their ovulation cycle or even in their life. Women generally want to reproduce with the "strong" male figure, while building a life with their more "softer" counterpart; the strong male will father healthy offspring while the softer one will stick around and help her raise it. Now i don't know if I agree with it entirely, and always believe that we're not tied to our baser instincts, but it's certainly interesting to think about. But yes, love and romance are ultimately selfish at the end of the day.

    • Ahhh... essentially why women are attracted to the alpha male 'bad boys' and generally aim to have sex with them in their youth, but want to settle down with the beta males that didn't get nearly as much action when they were younger, but focused on their careers and showed signs of making for a better long term partner. Is it as cut and dry as that? Probably not. Does every woman fit into that category? Of course not. However, there is definitely some truth to that. I mean you can see it out there everyday. Of course, the alpha male types might enjoy this arrangement because it means he's getting sex from his teens years on up until at least the first sets of child support payments. The 'husband material' beta male types might go along with it because society dictates that getting married and having kids is the thing to do but they aren't exactly too thrilled with the fact that they don't get to have all this fun with these women in their youthful years.

  • Okay, that kinda makes sense.

  • Men wish to have whores as girlfriends but a virgin wife on his wedding night.

    • There is truth in this. Not always, but enough to make it a stereotype, yes. That said, it should be disregarded as much as possible - having the confidence to have and live your take on things is universally accepted (and attractive) - stereotypes are often used by weak people, not the confident ones (of either sex).

    • No. Men wish to have girlfriends that are only a whore to them.

  • Commenting on your picture - Sandy was much sexier as the good girl then lost all appeal when she whored herself out - not only was she visually unappealing but more importantly she wasn't herself. I'm a good girl kinda guy, but also like women who are themselves not playing a part...

    • Hah don't get me started on the terribleness of the Grease movie. I love it as a movie don't get me wrong, but the whole idea that you have to change your entire being for a boyfriend/girlfriend... yikes.

  • Funny, you are saying that things aren't as simple as black and white, and yet you are trying to claim/preach that sex is always white. but it's not the case. When a women have sex with the right man is can be good, when a women act like a slut/whore and letting many men have her, it's bad, both morally and medically (much higher change to get STDs), the modern meaning Madonna–Whore Complex is little different then what Freud what talking about, is not that men can't want to have sex with good women, is just the fact that easy women are good only for one-night stand and nothing more, as sluts can't be trusted, the main reason that many men don't want to have anything serious with a slut, is to avoid the "Mama's Baby, Papa's Maybe" scenario, and also because first hand woman is usually much better then used goods, so what can you say to try and counter those facts? also even if not all women are black or white, is still don't mean that some women are much more black then white, and a smart man try to avoid problematic women almost like a plague.

    tvtropes.org/.../MadonnaWhoreComplex

    tvtropes.org/.../MamasBabyPapasMaybe

    • If it's safe and consensual, there's nothing wrong with having sex with many partners, so no, there's nothing morally or medically wrong with it, the same as if a man had sex with many partners. I'm not "used goods", I'm a woman who enjoys safe and consensual sex.

    • Keep telling it to yourself, but in the end of the day no one want you for serious relationship, they jest use you and throw you, but someone like you deserve nothing better.

    • Sure, and I'll be sure to tell that to my boyfriend when he comes home from work to the home we live in together. I'm sure he'll get a kick out of it, and then we'll have safe consensual sex.

    • Show All
  • 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏 amazing take! Well done

  • I like how this Take was written, it was entertaining, but you kinda miss the point to why fuck one and marry the other. I mean... no one wants to marry a whore because... well, it's a whore.
    Even women, who clearly show their preference for more experienced men by shaming the virgins, wouldn't marry a manwhore either. They'd fuck him, but wouldn't marry.

    This Take is applicable to both genders, cause women do the same, though you failed to give a true explanation to why we don't wanna marry whores.
    Think about it this way, you work at Human Resources and you have two resumes, they're both identical, except for one thing: one of them has had 10 different jobs in 2 years, while the other has only had 2. You know who's getting the job... the one with that had 2 jobs.

    What a whore tells you is that they put more value on sex than on relationships; that they would rather jump around between wo/men than stick to one.
    Sure, maybe the whore may end up being a great partner, but you don't know that, are you gonna risk it? Your time, your mental health, your life? Some will, but most won't, cause the chances of a relationship with a whore failing is pretty high (numbers show this).

    A person who has thought for years about having a great relationship and a happy family, is gonna put more effort, and most likely do better, than one who until 3 months ago was banging a different person every week.

    • I realize that this is an age-old question, but just in your eyes, what would make a woman a whore? Is it anyone who is not a virgin? You mentioned 'a different person every week' which would be an obvious sign lol! But is there a magic number for you, or is it more about behavior or a complete lack of discretion?

    • @MargaritaPeach It's more about behavior. This applies to guys too. I've seen some who will simply sleep with someone because they couldn't find anyone hotter, so why not? Others sleep with people because they bought them drinks so they'd feel bad if they say no. Others who just sleep to increase their number. Others who sleep with strangers without any protection because "it feels better". You can sleep with 30 people, but always taking precautions and respecting yourself, and not be a whore, but you can sleep with just one, and be a whore if you lose all your self-respect. It's all about the attitude.

    • That sums up how I try to decipher guy's behavior as well. I would hope that this would be how most guys feel as well, but didn't want to assume. There are SO many guys on this site putting down girls who have even one or two sexual partners because they feel that anyone who isn't a virgin is automatically a whore. That just seems like such a warped way of thinking to me. (I still respect their right to have an opinion, I just don't like the slut shaming aspect of it). Thanks for clarifying; and I think you have the right idea about using a girl's behavior to decide her motives and character. So much more mature than just assuming or judging.

    • Show All
  • Im going to make my own myTake, because this one gets so many things wrong. Im conservative, deeply religious, and I disagree. Slut-shaming exists, but for very different reasons than you might expect.

    • Send a link when you do topics and opinions on this is always interesting

    • @19magic I shall

  • Very well done. Great job.

  • Sure there's the whole religious angle but apart from that there are plenty of rational reasons why guys AND girls make this distinction.

    There's people you are attracted to (maybe only with beer goggles) but who don't fit your relationship standards ("damn that booty, and I know she's up for it, but she's uneducated, impulsive and would cuck me with Chad Thundercock in a heartbeat", or "omg look at those abs and jawline on that chad, but he's dumb as f*ck, has no ambitions at all and says he doesn't believe in monogamy"). This is completely normal and we can choose to have casual sex with these people.

  • I don't think religion plays that much of a role in guys wanting to fuck sluts but not marry them.

    And while its rare to meet someone who perfectly embodies either extreme, its not uncommon for someone to be closer to one extreme than they are to the other.

  • Men are shamed too, you know. "Creep", "pervert", "pig" are just a few examples of derogative words men get for simple things as cheking out a woman, or watching porn. Even to just approach women nowadays. Not all women shame men for such things, and not all men shame women for being sluts, but it goes both ways.

    Also, I don't think you difference something key here: Not wanting to commit to what we know as a "slut", doesn't equal slut shame.

    You misunderstood and simplified a heck lot Christian's views about sex, in my opinion, and promiscuity. It's not nearly as black and white as you claim.

    Very good written, though.

    • Thanks for the criticism! Unfortunately I'm writing from both a female and an atheist point of view, so I'm never going to fully understand the "other side" so to speak. I did some research for this, but again, anything you read is going to be biased one way or another. Stereotypes are just those, and both men and women are guilty of them; as you said, there's plenty of guys who could care less about promiscuous women, just as there are women who shame promiscuous men. If it doesn't apply to you it doesn't, but I wrote it I suppose for the people it does apply to. Again, thanks for the comment!

  • Well said.

    I was drilled that sex was bad throughout my life. Hence I am terrified of having it. I don't how to fix it. I now see it as a sinful act.

    But with my boyfriend, we're trying to fix that.

  • This is the most beautiful Take I've read this year. Thank you for saying this. Some cultures really raise rigidity that causes them guilt and shame to its followers at some point.

    Loved it!

  • Men don't want to marry the "whore", because promiscuous behaviour is linked all sorts of mental illnesses. Men instinctively pick up on this giant red flag.

  • Women also have different groups of guys that they'd marry or fuck.

  • sluts simply can't be trusted. they are low value bad investments that are not worth the effort. that's basically that. relationships come with stipulations and if a man is to restrict himself then he needs some return on his investment. bam all those words you wrote are nonsense.

    • I lIke your honesty. 👌

    • @GoldenWing yeah I wouldn't expect a good women to give her all to a man who never wanted to get a job or look after her while she's pregnant and nursing. relationships are conditional and those conditions determine the amount either party is willing to give.

    • That's true I couldn't care if he earned more than me or I more than him but if there's nothing, no drive there. Then I'm not going to hang around.

  • Show More (20)