I Think It's Time We Face BDSM For What It Is: Mostly Normal.

[Anonymous]

Throughtout our evolutionary history dominant and submissive relationships were the norm. The thing that people tend to forget is that those types of relationships, although built around a party 'imposing' its will on the other, is still mostly voluntary.

Men, for the most part, asked women (or at least their parents) to marry them. That isn't to say that there were not times in our history that sex between males and females was involuntary... because it was. But it's important to recognize that it is also somewhat involuntary in the animal kingdom in general. This is not a point from morality but from fact.

But out of that so-called 'natural rape' came an evolutionary adaptation. Females, to a certain extent, [can] enjoy being dominated. That's just how the hormones evolved. It's also why books like Fifty Shades of Grey and other erotic stories are so popular and consistent.

This is not just because it's taboo... it's because it is biology. A person can fight their natural inclinations but in the end, with something like sex, who are they really hurting?

This isn't (all) to say that there aren't different types and levels of BDSM but at it's most basic ... it's human.

It's also important to remember that even when it was possibly involuntary men consistently laid down their lifes for their families.

[Anonymous]

I've always loved S&M. I love it when he chokes me, pulls my hair, calls me skank, slut, whore, etc. Shoves his penis down my throat and makes me gag, spanks me. Cums on my face and in my hair.

As Rihanna once said "Cause I may be bad but I'm perfectly good at it sex in the air I don't care I love the smell of it sticks and stones may break my bones but chains and whips excite me!" ;)

[myTake Owner]

The fact that you have to go anon and say this, the fact that you would be ridiculed by society and feminists for feeling this way is EXACTLY the reason I posted this and I will make it one of my life's goal to eliminate irrational bashing of people. One day guys will man up and defend girls like you for feeling this way and stop hiding in the shadows. Keep being you.

[Opinion Owner]

I really do appreciate it, but it's more so the fact that I'm a minor and don't want to be judged rather than the fact that I'm into it. Especially if someone I know in real life were to ever join GAG.

[myTake Owner]

You're welcome. First off, it depends on how old you are and where you live. If you live in an area where the age of consent is sixteen (sometimes younger or older) you are legally allowed to do basically what you want, by the way. So how old are you? Secondly, that's the other part of my point. Age of consent after puberty is basically arbitrary. There is no real scientific backing. You feel the way you do because you hit puberty, for the most part. The fact that you are being judged for liking sex at your age is what bothers me. I'm actually glad that you feel that way because it means there are different sorts of people out there. "Especially if someone I know in real life were to ever join GAG." Yes see that's rough so I understand. I'm not saying you shouldn't be anon... you probably should. There's a reason I am too and it's because this isn't overly popular yet but I think people are more accepting than you might think. Well at least some of us.

[Opinion Owner]

The state I live in I have reached my age of consent, but it won't make that much of a difference until I'm by law an adult and don't have my parents down my back.

[myTake Owner]

Mmm fair point. I hope you're careful though. Some guys will take advantage of girls like you by the way.

[Anonymous]

Bdsm is normal. What's annoying is people who watched Fifty shades of grey And claim they know what it is

[myTake Owner]

I agree and I hope I didn't imply that Fifty Shades of Grey was an accurate representation of it. I was just saying that it is conceptually fairly similar.

[bailey11]

You wish!

[Izzy2102]

Evolution doesn't favor rape though. Best chances of conception are when she orgasms. Just that you have to open your legs, makes it harder to rape. Throughout human history rape was punished rather harshly, with either death or excommunication. That popular image of the caveman throwing his cavewoman over the shoulder and carrying her to the age is not accurate. In close knit hunter gather communities rape would create tensions and aggression.
Men need to be able to rely on each other, because he even the best hunter, loses out sometimes, in which case he relies on the others sharing. Hunting is dangerous, you have to be able to rely on each other. It's not really controversial that as a species we started pair bonding at some point. Which means that you are most likely raping someone else's partner which creates a lot of tension

So I think to say that women liking dominant men is an evolutionary response to getting raped a lot is quite a stretch.
More likely I think it's about being the dominant male. Being more dominant than most other guys makes you a good partner. It means you can protect and feed your family. Notice how in 50 shades of grey dominance isn't limited to the bedroom. That guy is also insanely handsome and filthy rich. Dominance represent things that make you a good partner in a cruel cruel world, that's why women like. And men... well men like to be dominant because they want to be wanted.

[myTake Owner]

You're somewhat correct and I think we mostly agree. "Evolution doesn't favor rape though. Best chances of conception are when she orgasms. Just that you have to open your legs, makes it harder to rape." Eh this is somewhat correct. Evolution does favor rape to a degree though because males very frequently did "rape" (sex that was not consensual) women throughout history (especially during times of war) and those women did conceive quite often because those males were strong enough to overpower them and carry out the rape. Greater health (for the most part) = Healthier sperm

[myTake Owner]

You and I mostly agree but I'm going to try and clear up some misconceptions: "Throughout human history rape was punished rather harshly, with either death or excommunication. That popular image of the caveman throwing his cavewoman over the shoulder and carrying her to the age is not accurate." Yes and no. It depends on the era and culture. Women did not always have a "right" to outright deny requests that were made by their elders (typically males and sometimes females) or their husbands. They were expected to submit, usually. There were sometimes groups (usually small) that were matriarchal but for the most part the most successful primates and by extension humans have predominantly been patriarchal for the most part. As far as cavemen go... not really. That actually is somewhat accurate. Cavemen (so-to-speak) had not developed language yet and like animals the strongest and/or most viable got first choice of the women they wanted.

[Izzy2102]

their children were also more likely to die. Because throughout pretty much all times of history men were essential in raising children. That's why you weren't supposed to have sex before marriage, because then you'd have a kid and no way to take care of it. (The other part of the equation is that husbands are assumed the father of any children his wife has.) That is also why many cultures made rape victims marry their rapists, so he'd be responsible for any children he conceived with her. This is artificially fixing the problem, which is that children and in fact mothers don't have good chances of survival without their father/partner If rape was as common as you claim it is we would have died out a long time ago There's noting normal or acceptable about rape. Though definitions of rape varied between cultures punishments were always severe, from the very beginning.

[myTake Owner]

Whoops I said this twice: "You and I mostly agree but I'm going to try and clear up some misconceptions:"

[Izzy2102]

It was always very hard for women to prove that they were in fact raped. Especially since people assumed you can't get pregnant from rape (what does that tell you btw? ) but once you were found guilty, your life was over, often literally As I said definitions or rape varied. Rape within marriage wasn't usually considered rape. But that doesn't change the fact that rape, however it was defined, was seen as despicable As long as humans have lived in groups rape was a very obvious problem for the group. The alpha male is usually the strongest most dominant of the group, which is why all women want him. But eventually we moved on to pair bonding and then at the latest rape became a huge issue

[myTake Owner]

Most of what you said is related to cultural development and not biology so I'm not sure how to respond. "So I think to say that women liking dominant men is an evolutionary response to getting raped a lot is quite a stretch." I'll finish responding to this in a little while too. I just got distracted.

[Izzy2102]

it's a cultural fix to a biological problem

[myTake Owner]

Also debatable. Culture developed things like virgin sacrifice and genocide. Also religion is a part of culture before anyone mentions that. But then we get into morality and that kind of misses me whole point of pointing out biological tendencies and evolution. Also, "rape" as we see it is new. The closest thing they had back then dealt with female virginity. You were not allowed to take that from females or you'd be punished. The modern conception of rape is probably just a couple hundred years old give or take.

[myTake Owner]

I'll further discuss this in a bit. I'm still distracted.

[Izzy2102]

I didn't say everything in culture was biological but this particular issue is. And no, you also weren't allowed rape married women. And in those time you were either married or a virgin, so...

[myTake Owner]

Not at all... females would be punished by their families or the law if they had sex before marriage and they were. Of course you couldn't "rape" (the modern conception of it) married women as their husbands back then because there was no such thing. And you couldn't have sex with someone that was married back then because it was adultery and not rape. Rape didn't really exist at all back then. That's why women adapted to it.

[Izzy2102]

consensual sex with married people was adultery, rape was still rape. Not by her husband tho, I said that. If you were not her husband though you could rape a woman that was married to someone else. In fact even thinking the queen was attractive was a crime So you think because the legal definition of rape was different then, women adapted to it, liking... ehm.. to be raped? that's just not how it works

[myTake Owner]

Again yes and no. The crime was adultery. If a woman could not prove she did not have a choice then she would have been an adulteress and punished accordingly. Mmmm "In fact even thinking the queen was attractive was a crime" I think this probably varied by kingdom. But I see your point. Also, they had prostitutes back then and they were no longer virgins and did not have the right per-say to refuse a customer, neither did slaves. The point I'm trying to make is that basically all females adjusted to not having the option to refuse sex AT LEAST under some circumstances (like marriage) and their bodies adjusted to it. That isn't really debatable. This is also neglecting that when you count wars, pillaging, and raids we are basically all descended from rapists (the current definition of rape) somewhere down the line.

[myTake Owner]

"If rape was as common as you claim it is we would have died out a long time ago" I think I see see our confusion now. Rapists are people who have sex with someone involuntarily (according to the modern definition). A person that is a "rapist" does not necessarily rape someone and then leave. They most certainly didn't do that before documented 'marriage' existed because of how primates pair bond, to an extent. Some primates, to my knowledge, can have more than one mate. I'm saying that it's somewhere between consensual and involuntary. That it isn't so black and white.

[Izzy2102]

we don't adapt that fast though, even if your reasoning was right which it's not. all of those are agricultural problems. We invented agriculture about 12000 years ago. We were hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years. And hunter gatherer societies had different problems. I could copy and past what I wrote in my original answer. but I'm sure you can reread yourself

[myTake Owner]

Also, I'm not necessarily trying to convince you necessarily. I just want to give people access to, what I understand, is accurate information that I was not given in the past. I was told things that were blatantly not true.

[Izzy2102]

then what would they do instead? Stay around, play with their children and flip burgers on the weekend?

[myTake Owner]

"we don't adapt that fast though, even if your reasoning was right which it's not. all of those are agricultural problems. We invented agriculture about 12000 years ago. We were hunter gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years. And hunter gatherer societies had different problems. I could copy and past what I wrote in my original answer. but I'm sure you can reread yourself" Thus far my reasoning appears to be entirely correct. I'm trying to dissect what you're saying though in case I'm mistaken in understanding you. Whether we were hunter-gathers or agricultural makes no difference. This adaptation probably far exceeds homo sapiens. Similar animals display almost identical characteristics so I'm not sure what you're talking about. The point is that "rape" did not exist back then (how we see it now) and once females were married and sometimes before... they complied with sex. Their bodies adapted. It's basically as simple as that.

[myTake Owner]

"then what would they do instead? Stay around, play with their children and flip burgers on the weekend?" I assume they = women and hopefully my assumption is correct. If it is then women typically attended to household duties often managing them in at least some circumstances. They or their slaves would raise their children. It really all depended on the society, era and culture.

[Izzy2102]

no they is the rapist. Because I was saying children and pregnant women aren't likely to survive without a man, which is just another reason why evolution doesn't favor rape. To which you said it was wrong to assume the rapists just leave, so what do they do instead? And no, agricultural and hunter gather societies are very different in that regard. Wealth is an agricultural phenomena. Men don't need to rely on each other that much anymore, which may take out an incentive not to rape. Hunter gatherer societies are usually small and they need to stick together to survive which is why anything that disrupts the group (such as rape ) is potentially life threatening. And rape wasn't common there. So you can't take something from a agricultural society, in some cases as recent as 1000 years ago and say we adapted to that. No we didn't. It takes much longer than that. You say rape was common because marriage was often not consensual but marriage, as an institution is

[Izzy2102]

is an agricultural development. That you don't get to choose your own mate, must be fluke evolution, before that women did very well get to choose their own mate. And men adapted to their desires You're right not all, primates are monogamous, among those that are polygamous, the males that are not the alpha males, do not rape. Mostly. They try to get with the females and try to fight the alpha, but the vast majority of them don't rape

[myTake Owner]

"no they is the rapist. Because I was saying children and pregnant women aren't likely to survive without a man, which is just another reason why evolution doesn't favor rape. To which you said it was wrong to assume the rapists just leave, so what do they do instead?" People have a false assumption that rape = leaving her after sex. This is a massive misconception. Males are territorial in almost every species of primates and with most animals in general. They take the female and she belongs to him. I'm not saying it's right. I'm saying that's what happened. Females complied and adapted to that. "And no, agricultural and hunter gather societies are very different in that regard. Wealth is an agricultural phenomena. Men don't need to rely on each other that much anymore" ... Men do need to rely on each-other. They still do now. We didn't just abandon the need for men to be men. We still have armies for a reason. Not just for wars either, there are natural disasters, protests, etc

[myTake Owner]

"So you can't take something from a agricultural society, in some cases as recent as 1000 years ago and say we adapted to that. No we didn't. It takes much longer than that. You say rape was common because marriage was often not consensual but marriage, as an institution is" Again no, I'm saying sex in large part was not entirely consensual. Man wants sex then woman complied. Refusing sex is a fairly new idea. Cause and effect. It certainly wasn't over 1000 years, this has probably been going on for millions of years even before homo sapiens.

[Izzy2102]

"Man wants sex then woman complied" that is just not true. It's against everything we know, everything you will ever read in anything about evolutionary psychology and against everything we observe in other animals. That's a stereotype that has nothing to do with reality. That's exactly what I mean with the caveman stereotype. it IS stereotype For the most part, what you will find anywhere is that females are the pickier sex and males run, fly or swim circles to get to mate with her. That is how we evolved. Which is not to say that rape doesn't happen, but it's not the norm. For the most part men asked for sex, women refused and men worked harder. In fact women who were pickier in their mate were more likely to successfully pass on their genes Men in agricultural societies rely much less on each other for daily survival than men in hunter gatherer societies

[myTake Owner]

""Man wants sex then woman complied" that is just not true. It's against everything we know, everything you will ever read in anything about evolutionary psychology and against everything we observe in other animals. That's a stereotype that has nothing to do with reality. That's exactly what I mean with the caveman stereotype. it IS stereotype" Yeah see now you believe something that isn't true. I would suggest you check your sources. If an alpha male or a man in general sought sex with a woman (in the past, in general, unless she was a virgin or married) they complied because fighting a rapist can cause harm to a female if he is able to succeed. Generally rapists did not kill the person they raped they just have sex with her UNLESS she fought him and/or injured him. This does vary but it's a pretty sound point.

[myTake Owner]

"For the most part, what you will find anywhere is that females are the pickier sex and males run, fly or swim circles to get to mate with her. That is how we evolved. Which is not to say that rape doesn't happen, but it's not the norm. For the most part men asked for sex, women refused and men worked harder. In fact women who were pickier in their mate were more likely to successfully pass on their genes." Eh sort of but not exactly. To my knowledge this was in species that did not have much variance in size and strength with respect to females, less complex genetics. When more complex mammals began to develop and that sort of variance came about, a different trend emerged. A trend of alpha male dominated societies (aside from Bonobos which are an anomaly) took hold. And they were EXTREMELY successful. They quickly raised to the top of the food chain. For the most part the most successful predators are patriarchal in nature and that is not a coincidence.

[myTake Owner]

"You're right not all, primates are monogamous, among those that are polygamous, the males that are not the alpha males, do not rape. Mostly. They try to get with the females and try to fight the alpha, but the vast majority of them don't rape" They don't rape because they can't. The so-called alpha stops it. Not females. That's them being territorial. So I don't see your point. The alpha still has sex with them and they comply which is my original point. They adapted to the alpha having sex with them even when they might not have wanted to.

[myTake Owner]

"is an agricultural development. That you don't get to choose your own mate, must be fluke evolution, before that women did very well get to choose their own mate. And men adapted to their desires" No... Women have not entirely ever entirely chosen their own mates until somewhat recently. They had input but it was more complex than that. It also wouldn't change my point so I'm not sure what you're saying. This isn't about choosing a mate (although men mostly decided that) this is about sex and the idea that even if females did not want to have sex persay they would anyway and adapted to that. I'm not sure how to make it anymore simple than that. I posted those in the wrong box. Too funny.

[Izzy2102]

you still think modern laws influence how we evolved? OK? show me sources for that? And by modern I mean the past 12000 years
Other than that i don't know what to say to you, just that you are so wrong. If you think you're not, how about you gimme some links for that.

For the most part evolution is about sexual selection which is about having the choice
prizedwriting.ucdavis.edu/.../female-mate-choice-as-a-significant-selective-force-in-nonhuman-primates
https://web.missouri.edu/~gearyd/MatechoicePDF.pdf
citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/.../download

the first one has a pretty good summary

[myTake Owner]

"you still think modern laws influence how we evolved? OK? show me sources for that? And by modern I mean the past 12000 years Other than that i don't know what to say to you, just that you are so wrong. If you think you're not, how about you gimme some links for that." I don't recall saying laws influenced our evolution. I'm confused. I'm going to read your links. One moment.

[Izzy2102]

No what I said is they don't even attempt to rape. One of the links says that too. Choosing your mate is not a modern invention at all. I don't know where you got that from? seriously where? Because I've never heard anything like it. It's base of how we evolved. According to darwin sexual selection consists of two parts male to male competition ((intrasexual competition)) and and female selection (intersexual choice).

[myTake Owner]

First off, two things. Number one I just finished looking over your first link. The UC Davis link is not peer-reviewed evolutionary psychological science. It is an English Paper... that a female student sourced. She's also an anthropology student. I hope she's a grad student at least although I don't think that would matter. However, it's going to cause me to check my sources on primate 'rape' so I appreciate that. I'm checking your second link. One moment.

[myTake Owner]

Also, after looking over your second link the first hypothesis is about: females being "excluded from power and seen as objects of exchange" so that isn't very promising to your point. Hypothesis 1: Structural Powerlessness and Sex Role Socialization This hypothesis is that women are typically excluded from power and are viewed as objects of exchange. Because of their restricted paths for individual advancement, women seek in mates those characteristics associated with power such as earning capacity and higher education. Hypergamy, the tendency for women to marry upward in socioeconomic status, thus composes the primary traditional channel for upward mobility for women. Men, in contrast, place a premium on the quality of the "exchange object" itself, and so value physical beauty (e. g., enhanced value as a sex object). Physical attractiveness becomes a central means for designating relative value among exchange commodities. Traditional socialization

[myTake Owner]

The second link also appears to be more reliable. It looks scientific so to speak.

[myTake Owner]

I think I might use your link actually lol it seems to be proving my point so thank you.

[Izzy2102]

ya, power as in political and economic power. In case it wasn't clear, the paper reviews modern mate choice under the context of evolution and natural selection. Concluding that where women are excluded from society they choose high status men. That is the point though, they CHOOSE

[Izzy2102]

so what you're saying is you can't tell the difference between a gold digger and a rape victim?

[myTake Owner]

Yes but this discussion isn't about modern mate selection... lol you're talking about modern psychology. This is about evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology. And how women evolved. Culture has come into play and that affects how they make choices... obviously. That was the entire point of this point.

[myTake Owner]

entire point of this post*

[myTake Owner]

"Choosing your mate is not a modern invention at all. I don't know where you got that from? seriously where? Because I've never heard anything like it. It's base of how we evolved. According to darwin sexual selection consists of two parts male to male competition ((intrasexual competition)) and and female selection (intersexual choice)." This is partly true. It depends on the species though. Not all of them were that way. There is a lot of genetic variation.

[Izzy2102]

that IS what the article is about. You have yet to send me any links to support your point and from what you have said so far I really think you have no idea what you're talking about and you can't admit when you're wrong

[Izzy2102]

whatever sex gets the worse card in child bearing gets to be selective, 99% of times it's the female

[myTake Owner]

"that IS what the article is about. You have yet to send me any links to support your point and from what you have said so far I really think you have no idea what you're talking about and you can't admit when you're wrong" I guess I need to find links to information about primate rape and I guess human rape but the latter is probably unnecessary so I'm not sure how I'm wrong because so far I do not appear to be. Your links thus far have proven my point more than yours so I'm not sure what you're getting at. In fact I just used your link as a source for this same discussion lol the second link. I will look into primate rape and what not and get back to you!

[Izzy2102]

how has it proven your point? It's hard to find an article that states that sexual selection is how a species advances (female selection especially ), instead of rape. Because no one really doubts that. Well aside from you. No I don't know why you'd only look into primates. It's about humans after all. Find me any research that supports your original theory, which is that women have evolved to like dominant men in the bedroom because they've been raped so often. Might be true for one individual, but def for the whole species. But well I might be wrong. Just show me research

[myTake Owner]

"how has it proven your point?
It's hard to find an article that states that sexual selection is how a species advances (female selection especially ), instead of rape. Because no one really doubts that. Well aside from you.

No I don't know why you'd only look into primates. It's about humans after all. Find me any research that supports your original theory, which is that women have evolved to like dominant men in the bedroom because they've been raped so often. Might be true for one individual, but def for the whole species. But well I might be wrong. Just show me research"

I hope to bring you information along with other people who have questions. I'm quite interested in the subject. However, I'm about to eat. I would suggest you check this out in the mean time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion

There are more solid sources at the bottom, I think. I will find more 'reliable' information shortly. Also, I don't expect you to believe me. I'm just giving you food for thought. I hope people do their research.

[Izzy2102]

I've seen that article, but it really just describes the term. It doesn't say anything about how relevant that is to evolution or even how common it is in humans. I'm aware it exists, if you're unclear about it. I know it exists but it's not the norm, it's now how we evolved

[myTake Owner]

"I've seen that article, but it really just describes the term. It doesn't say anything about how relevant that is to evolution or even how common it is in humans. I'm aware it exists, if you're unclear about it. I know it exists but it's not the norm, it's now how we evolved" I'm not really sure what you're saying here.

[myTake Owner]

https://www.upf.edu/estiu/_pdf/1363_info.pdf

voila first link

[myTake Owner]

voila second link

en.wikipedia.org/.../Sexual_coercion

[Izzy2102]

What is unclear about that statement? The Wikipedia article (which you linked a second time?) define sexual coercion and give examples in nature. But that's not the point of this discussion. You didn't just claim that it exists, you claimed women adapted to it by enjoying rough sex. There is nothing in that article that would support any such statement. It does quite the opposite, saying that where sexual coercion is common, evolution is often an arms race between females evolving to protect themselves from it and males evolving to destroy that protection. It doesn't in any way imply that that any species would evolve to embrace rape. And also that section of the article talks about bugs and snakes, you can't assume a correlation to humans. How old are you? Because no offence but if you see that as support for your claims you need to go back to high school and practice your reading skills. Or maybe it's a matter of hearing what you want to hear? And the second one doesn't either. It

[Izzy2102]

says " there is no ‘conspicuous morphology that might be a rape adaptation’ in human males," so that's that part of the equation "‘for natural selection to favor rape, rapists would have to differ genetically from nonrapists and need to sow their seed more successfully, so to speak, causing more pregnancies than nonrapists" I think we know today that is not the case Then it goes to explain that there is a cultural correlation between violence in a culture and rape "Rape-prone societies are more likely to be characterized by male segregation in separate houses, an ideology of male toughness, emphasis on competition, low respect for women as citizens, and the absence of women in the public domain of economic and political affairs" (kinda a no brainer but not relevant to the question ) "Because these stereotypes condoned sexual aggression by making it ‘natural,’ such as seen in the idea that ‘boys will be boys,’,’" which is exactly what you are doing then the article goes on

[Izzy2102]

rape statistic in the US and cultural prevent, again not relevant. So this article at all doesn't not prove your point it rather disproves it

[myTake Owner]

Another one of your assessments that are false. I'm not in high school. I'll have to check the article again. I just quickly skimmed it. Because it seemingly explained my point. You're clearly emotionally attached to the issue and I am not. That's the difference. That made me laugh a little though so thank you.

[myTake Owner]

Lol it's starting to sound like you should read a little more... I found this after two seconds of reading under the sexual coercion article, "Sometimes, females choose not to struggle and simple acquiesce to forceful matings. This can happen when they decide that the cost of resisting would be greater than the cost of mating.[22] They use submission to avoid further harassment or aggression, which could end in death or injury.[26] This is often seen in primate species, such as chimpanzees and hamadryas baboons." You're clearly very bias and afraid of looking into it. Listen, I don't care if you don't believe me. I used to think as you did too. I changed my perspective because I did my own research which you are than capable to doing also. I'll try to find the information for you myself but if you're disrespectful it's going to make me much less inclined. I'm interested in the truth, nothing more and nothing less.

[myTake Owner]

" there is no ‘conspicuous morphology that might be a rape adaptation’ in human males," so that's that part of the equation "‘for natural selection to favor rape, rapists would have to differ genetically from nonrapists and need to sow their seed more successfully, so to speak, causing more pregnancies than nonrapists" I think we know today that is not the case" Lol no... if you had read the entire argument and understood it then you would have realized that it proved nothing. What you read, the excerpt, was of a dissenter's argument against other scientists. There are ALWAY dissenting arguments in ANY field of science. There were dissenters against Einstein and Peter Ware Higgs. And those were PHYSICISTS explaining hard science. I'm only going to say things about a person that I think are accurate. For instance, I don't think you understand how science works which is clouding your ability to think and judge this information clearly

[myTake Owner]

My goal was to remove the societal misconception that dominant and submissive relationships were more normal than they were led to believe and this is almost certainly true. My main point was that, "Females, to a certain extent, [can] enjoy being dominated." And this is true because THEY can and DO quite often, do your research. This is even the way society is now which has been heavily influenced by socialism and feminism, in massive numbers that skew toward female submissive and male dominants. If you want to believe that I'm the only one that believes this scientifically (which I think is almost certainly untrue), then you can take this: "out of that so-called 'natural rape' came an evolutionary adaptation" as my hypothesis and that's fine. Since you apparently want to get technical. I'm trying to help you understand something I came to understand a while ago. If it bothers you emotionally why are you even discussing this?

[myTake Owner]

Also, if i send you a link that is explaining my point and it's scientific then you might want to read the entire thing and try to understand it... otherwise it's going to make a lot more work for me and I have a lot of people with questions like this. This is especially given that I'm quite certain you're openly and clearly bias... because of that you're intending disrespect. My goal is to bring forth the truth as I understand it, nothing more and nothing less. In my book I'm trying to help you understand. If you don't want to believe what I'm saying then why are you even having this discussion? To prove me wrong? You're going to have a difficult time with that unless it's blatantly obvious because this is psychology and there are many different schools of psychology with slightly different views. I'm trying to help people understand themselves and their inclinations, not to force them to believe what I do. Believe what you want. But do your research.

[myTake Owner]

If you're actually curious though, because to me even the notions that I have not throughly proven to you, are still pretty interesting in my opinion. And I'll do my best to find further information for you if you ask. But I have to dig this stuff out. I don't save it.

[myTake Owner]

"My goal was to remove the societal misconception that dominant and submissive relationships were more normal than they were led to believe and this is almost certainly true. " Whoops I meant to say remove the societal misconception that dominant and submissive relationships are not normal when they actually are***

[myTake Owner]

ALSO. I just realized something. My point was not that females enjoy being raped because I think that's untrue and was never my point, females ARE sexually selective. It was that they enjoy being dominated, which they tend to and in very large numbers in spite of cultural opposition.

Whether this is definitively linked to "But out of that so-called 'natural rape' came an evolutionary adaptation" or not is irrelevant. If we want to call that my hypothesis that's fine but it wouldn't change my main point which was this: "Females, to a certain extent, [can] enjoy being dominated." And they do again in spite of cultural opposition in a significant majority.

www.anth.ucsb.edu/projects/human/epfaq/rape.html
The above link or one like it led me down my original path. And that is OLD. There might be more information since then that would more clearly explain the tendencies that I was talking about.

[myTake Owner]

But to conclude that females did not adapt to rape is almost certainly untrue. And I STILL don't think females gaining adaptations to rape (or dominant alpha males that could be forcing them into sex) that would allow them to enjoy dominant relationships is necessarily untrue either but again it was not my point.

This sort of thing was my point:
www.psychologytoday.com/.../why-dominant-women-enjoy-sexual-submission-fantasies-part-1

If you don't agree with that then you are more than welcome to. Again I'm not here to force you to believe one way or the other.

[myTake Owner]

www.psychologytoday.com/.../why-dominant-women-enjoy-sexual-submission-fantasies-part-2

Second part, the link is dead. AGAIN this does not prove anything. I think it's interesting. This article is not science per-say. I think there is probably a scientific foundation for most if not all of it though.

[Izzy2102]

The ONE article you linked looked into the issue from a biological and cultural point and came to the conclusion that rape is a cultural phenomena. What they found is that biological evidence is shaky at best but cultural evidence very there and conclusive. I'm not emotionally attached to it but I do get quite upset when people make false assumptions, claim they are facts and don't understand the evidence they are providing I don't have time to reply to all of your 10 comments now. I might later

[myTake Owner]

"The ONE article you linked looked into the issue from a biological and cultural point and came to the conclusion that rape is a cultural phenomena.
What they found is that biological evidence is shaky at best but cultural evidence very there and conclusive."

Oh I thought you meant proving that females enjoying rape was evolutionary. My point was that it's probably difficult to do that in psychology definitively because it just is. However if we're just talking about rape being evolutionary that's a lot easier.

courses.washington.edu/.../why%20men%20rape.pdf

Two species in particular provide clear examples
of adaptations in males to rape females.
A large body of evidence demonstrates that
male scorpionflies (Panorpa vulgaris) have a
notal organ that is designed exclusively to facilitate
sexual access to a female in a coercive
fashion, that is, rape (Thornhill, 1980, 1981;
Thornhill & Sauer, 1991). Scorpionfly males do
not always secure copulations through rape.

[myTake Owner]

Male orangutans (Pongo pygmaeus) also deploy conditional strategies of sexual coercion and rape. Orangutans are unique among apes in that they live solitary lives. Females therefore do not have mates or kin that may deter or prevent rape (Wrangham & Peterson, 1996). This fact alone makes rape a more viable strategy for male orangutans. Forced copulations account for up to half of all copulations (Mitani, 1985; Wrangham & Peterson, 1996).

[myTake Owner]

Also, this is interesting: For rape to be produced by evolved psychological mechanisms, it must have recurrently generated reproductive benefits for ancestral rapists. These benefits must have outweighed the costs that men may incur if they attempt or successfully complete a rape. Despite the costs, there is evidence that rape may have increased the number of women with whom ancestral men copulated and, therefore, the reproductive success of rapist males (Gottschall & Gottschall, 2003; Holmes, Resnick, Kilpatrick, & Best, 1996; Krueger, 1988; Shields & Shields, 1983; Thornhill, 1999; Thornhill & Palmer, 2000).

[myTake Owner]

"I'm not emotionally attached to it but I do get quite upset when people make false assumptions, claim they are facts and don't understand the evidence they are providing " Oh you might not think you are but it's pretty clear to me that you are emotionally attached. We can agree to disagree though. I'm the same way. I like accurate data but I didn't say that was a fact necessarily. That's why I said it was [technically] a hypothesis as far as you're concerned in a post before that you have not read yet. Also, we have not determined it is "false" yet. You believe it is false and that is a grave assumption and a bias preventing you from seeing both sides. I have viewed both sides and this makes more sense to me. If you disagree then you are more than welcome to do so. But if you believe something is false ONLY because you have not seen evidence yet then that is a fallacy. Your belief thus far appears as a false dichotomy and is an argument from ignorance, an informal logical fallacy

[Izzy2102]

again I didn't read all of your comments yet. But see you can't look at scorpion flies and assume for humans. I believe that females adapted to rape in some species. But even there not in order to accommodate it, as you say, but to better defend themselves against it Humans are sociable species and rape comes with social consequences. So anything you see in a non sociable species doesn't really apply. One of your quotes even points that out, saying that orangutans, which are virtually the only apes that rape frequently , do not usually live in groups. The vast majority of ones that do live in groups do not rape (frequently). Don't look at the exception, look at the rule

[myTake Owner]

"again I didn't read all of your comments yet. But see you can't look at scorpion flies and assume for humans. I believe that females adapted to rape in some species. But even there not in order to accommodate it, as you say, but to better defend themselves against it Humans are sociable species and rape comes with social consequences. So anything you see in a non sociable species doesn't really apply. One of your quotes even points that out, saying that orangutans, which are virtually the only apes that rape frequently , do not usually live in groups. The vast majority of ones that do live in groups do not rape (frequently). Don't look at the exception, look at the rule" No chimps do also as I understand and we are VERY similar to them. The only ape I'm aware of that isn't patriarchal are bonobos and that is ONLY because the females came together to defend themselves while the males did not. It is an anomaly that oddly enough works fairly well for them.

[myTake Owner]

You need to read everything I brought forth and then get back with me. I addressed some of this already. Also it's important to note that bonobos don't compete with chimps over territory for the most part which is lucky for them because if they had the chimps would probably give the bonobos a VERY bad time. That's just how nature works for mammals thus far.

[myTake Owner]

You have to read the ENTIRE works I send otherwise I have to go through and quote a bunch of parts for you which is A LOT of work for me. I'll try to do that but it seems like i'm doing most of the work and you're sitting back and critiquing me. This isn't me proving a hypothesis to you. This is me giving you information so you can start to research it yourself.

[myTake Owner]

"But even there not in order to accommodate it" ... I didn't say they would accommodate rape. Females do not want to be raped. I get that. I'm saying that if it's going to happen anyway they might as well have an evolutionary response to enjoy it in some instances. Try to understand. Don't assume. It isn't becoming of you.

[Izzy2102]

Is rape an adaptation? talks about adaptations in men and men's behviour not about females. . So not sure what your point was there And the psychology today paper, well not sure what your point was there either? It states "the researchers found that both men and women preferred to imagine being dominated. And men liked it even more than women. " And then goes on saying "The most socially dominant men rated vignettes in which they were sexually dominant higher than the other men did" which kinda supports my point, that dominance in the bedroom is representative of other behavior that makes men attractive the washington. edu article also exhaustivley talks about how male might have adapted to it and when it goes on to women it does make some interesting point, many of which I've already made.

[Izzy2102]

Smuts (1992) argued that women form alliances with groups of men and other women for protection against would-be rapists (...) Women’s mate preferences for physically and socially dominant men may reflect antirape adaptation" and then goes on about several other way we could have evolved to avoid rape. Now that I believe, liking dominant men is rape prevention strategy not making the best out of rape. See what I said before about dominant men making good partners, dominance implying that you can protect her and her family As I said before I don't disagree that liking dominant behviour in the bedroom is normal, but saying it is because women have been raped so often they adapted to it, is not the right the reasoning. At least not based on any evidence you gave me so far "I'm saying that if it's going to happen anyway they might as well have an evolutionary response to enjoy it in some instances." No not just any response, you assumed a positive reponse and

[Izzy2102]

that IS accomondating to rape

[myTake Owner]

"Is rape an adaptation? talks about adaptations in men and men's behviour not about females. . So not sure what your point was there " You aren't quoting me and I also have no idea what you're talking about so I'll assume: both males and females have probably adapted to rape. I've already explained that.

[myTake Owner]

"And the psychology today paper, well not sure what your point was there either? It states "the researchers found that both men and women preferred to imagine being dominated. And men liked it even more than women. " And then goes on saying "The most socially dominant men rated vignettes in which they were sexually dominant higher than the other men did" which kinda supports my point, that dominance in the bedroom is representative of other behavior that makes men attractive " I knew you would notice that and finally it's a very solid point. But it goes on to say: "It makes a good deal of sense that an alternate fantasy self would be the target of aggressive womanly pursuit free from rejection and restrictions." Ah yes, just sit back and let the horny ladies come to you. To support their claim, they analyzed two volumes of Penthouse Letters, which are aimed at male readers. In these fantasies, 43% of the hookups were initiated by women and only 28% by men."

[myTake Owner]

The point is that they like aggression not dominance necessarily. And even then you're nitpicking. That wasn't my point. Also... that isn't science that was just an article written by a science journalist. If you don't want to believe it don't?

[myTake Owner]

"the washington. edu article also exhaustivley talks about how male might have adapted to it and when it goes on to women it does make some interesting point, many of which I've already made." Not sure what you're talking about. Most of what I've linked makes my basic points. You don't quote enough.

[myTake Owner]

"Smuts (1992) argued that women form alliances with groups of men and other women for protection against would-be rapists (...) Women’s mate preferences for physically and socially dominant men may reflect antirape adaptation" and then goes on about several other way we could have evolved to avoid rape. Now that I believe, liking dominant men is rape prevention strategy not making the best out of rape. See what I said before about dominant men making good partners, dominance implying that you can protect her and her family " LOL AGH pay attention. I'm not saying women want to be raped. THEY DON'T. I understand that. WOMEN WANT TO SURRENDER DURING SEX (often times) TO DOMINANT MALES. Why is that so hard to grasp?

[myTake Owner]

"As I said before I don't disagree that liking dominant behviour in the bedroom is normal, but saying it is because women have been raped so often they adapted to it, is not the right the reasoning. At least not based on any evidence you gave me so far " For the tenth time. If you read more of what I brought forth you would see that it might be reasonable to conclude what I'm saying. It is thus far at the VERY LEAST a reasonable conclusion not that it is DEFINITELY true. Hence why I said call it my hypothesis if you want to get technical and don't like my reasoning... that's fine. It still doesn't take away from my central focus at all.

[myTake Owner]

""I'm saying that if it's going to happen anyway they might as well have an evolutionary response to enjoy it in some instances." No not just any response, you assumed a positive response and that IS accommodating to rape" Again you're nitpicking. I also said "natural rape" not "rape". To me, 'natural rape' is what happened between alpha males and (more submissive) females. You're WAY to caught up on my terminology and technicalities to grasp my point evidentially. This take was not meant to be peer reviewed science, necessarily. This is meant to be a starting point for people to investigate the subject on their own OR for me to help them understand MY point. Why is that hard to grasp for you?

[Izzy2102]

For the tenth time nothing you claim is in there. You haven't pointed out a single point in any of those articles that would support your point, which is that women liking dominant men is an evolutionary adaption to an inability to prevent rape There is no evidence for that in any of the articles. None of them even speculate that or have that thought. Because it IS very far fetched

[myTake Owner]

"For the tenth time nothing you claim is in there. You haven't pointed out a single point in any of those articles that would support your point, which is that women liking dominant men is an evolutionary adaption to an inability to prevent rape There is no evidence for that in any of the articles. None of them even speculate that or have that thought. Because it IS very far fetched" Firstly you believe it is far fetched. That does not necessarily make it so. Secondly, if you read my previous posts we'd be on the same page: to me rape DOES NOT necessarily equal 'natural rape'. You're making this way more work for me than it's worth lol no offense. Also I STRONGLY doubt you have read the entire articles I sent. I, however, am willing to do so possibly to help YOU understand my conclusions IF you are respectful. That is my service to you. I don't HAVE to do that. This dialogue is NOT peer-reviewed science. This is one person sharing their conclusion.

[myTake Owner]

I also NEVER said that women want to be raped. PAY ATTENTION. Read what I'm saying ffs

[Zythaphile]

I think there is a lot of confusion over history. For 95% of human existance we have been hunter gathers. During this time social rganisation was pretty universal, because it was the best way to survive. During this time marriage didn't exist, we were gathered together into small tribes which were extremely egalitarian: with complete sexual equalty. They shared everything, including sexual partners. Rape was therefore extremely rare, if not non existant as there was always a sexual partner available and the idea of one person having power over another was so threatening to group cohesion. Even when two tribes met there wasn't any sexual violence, as both tribes wanted to exchange sexual contact to widen the gene pool. It is only with the development of agriculture, when there was an inheritance to hand down to the children that sexual fidelity was introduced, with the invention of marriage. It is at this point, fairly recently in our history, that rape became possible.

[bijbee]

In reality, those people are jealous very jealous of normal couples since they can still feel normal love and affection. This is really true. BDSM is just based on people who like to brag but have nothing to offer. Who needs their sweat anyway. They make about themselves propaganda and commercials to brag non stop in the media, it is all a make-believe and they want you to brag about it to make others jealous while it is nothing. They fooled many and many are jealous and tv and commercials are based on this and making jealous in the hope people join them because if they have the most likes and votes it looks good as proven while it is not. Personal I think those people are dangerous also and prepared to kill with joy but that they hide and do not tell people because they are full of anger and rage since man has also a hormone house and they must constantly deny that. So it is all in their jealous brain what makes them go back. Man do not control their brain at all.

[Prettykangaroos]

Yay!!

People making me feel bad for feelings that I was born with...

[myTake Owner]

People make you feel bad for liking BDSM or not liking it?

[matthewj675]

What do you like about bdsm

[watashiwahanadesu]

... did you call rape natural?

BDSM goes beyond the extent most people are comfortable with. Also, you only adressed men as the Dom what about those who want a dominatrix and the men play the submissive role? I don't think BDSM is normal this is why it's a subculture or considered a fetish. It pushes sex to an extreme that practitioners are sadomasochistic. Who do you know gets off from giving/receiving pain?

[myTake Owner]

I did call it normal because it was or it appears to be. It has occurred quite frequently in the past for just that reason, it's a biological imperative for men to implant their DNA into a female for reproductive reasons. It occurred quite often in the past especially during wartime. BDSM is now called a fetish for two reasons: cultural development/psychology and some of it's degrees are not necessarily natural. I'm talking about mild sadism and moderate domination I suppose. Although it's hard to get technical about degrees of those. I'm also talking about tendencies and biological developments/adaptations.

[myTake Owner]

All of that is why even today (in general) females like the idea of surrendering during sex. And they don't like the opposite. It seemingly turns them off if a guy isn't masculine. I could find studies they've done on that if you like?

[watashiwahanadesu]

How does it appear normal? Yes it may have happened frequently in the past but frequency does not equate to normalcy. In the past, it was common for relatives to marry. That isn't normal though because it just increases the risk of inheriting genetic abnormalities and actually promotes it. If it were biologically "normal" to rape a woman then her body would not act defensively. It should have adapted to that type of assult. A number of females like to be dominated yes but there is a limit. This is also why a woman prefers a mate who isn't so buff because he can be dominating but not too extreme. Depending on the culture, women actually prefer more feminine guys than the masculine ones.

[myTake Owner]

"normalcy" is largely arbitrary. "A lot" is also arbitrary. We are relying on historical documents and present research data of which I could look into and send you if you like? "In the past, it was common for relatives to marry. That isn't normal though because it just increases the risk of inheriting genetic abnormalities and actually promotes it." Eh this is somewhat true but for some reason humans quickly began to reproduce outside of their close relatives for the exact reasons you mentioned. This is probably partly because evolution caused people to attracted to people that look different than them. I'll get links on this soonish if you like once I find them again.

[myTake Owner]

"If it were biologically "normal" to rape a woman then her body would not act defensively. It should have adapted to that type of assult." Eh again sort of. Her body reacts defensively to prevent damage to her body like her body producing lubrication in the presence of any sort of sexual activity even if it's unwanted. Her mind and by extension her body attempts to resist if she does not like her aggressor but often times her resistance was futile.

[myTake Owner]

" A number of females like to be dominated yes but there is a limit. This is also why a woman prefers a mate who isn't so buff because he can be dominating but not too extreme." Of course. Women don't want to be harmed or have their children harmed. They want a dominant male that will protect her and her offspring. That's why women typically like so-called gentlemen.

[myTake Owner]

"This is also why a woman prefers a mate who isn't so buff because he can be dominating but not too extreme. Depending on the culture, women actually prefer more feminine guys than the masculine ones." Also, I'd imagine that women don't like too "buff" because too buff is unhealthy and probably unnatural. All things in balance. As far as women preferring more feminine guys... not really or doubtful. That's probably cultural conditioning. Feminine guys would (probably) not have survived throughout the evolutionary process.

[myTake Owner]

I should say feminine guys probably would not have survived throughout the "natural selection" process actually. My mistake.*

[mirahd]

I had a wall paper for the longest time "Sticks and stones may break my bones but whips and chains excite me so tie me up throw me down and show me that you like me."

[JackKerouac77]

DOMINATE ME WITH BUTTER

[Song4TheBroken]

You're talking absolute bollox mate haha. You have zero evidence to back up your claims. This was a shit take.

[myTake Owner]

Not at all. Just because I didn't post it doesn't mean I can't back it up. Humorous you'd think that though.

[Song4TheBroken]

Link to any scientific studies please? No? Didn't think so loooool

[myTake Owner]

You haven't debated any of my points yet so what am I sourcing? Some of this stuff is common knowledge among psychologists and biologists. This was not meant to be peer reviewed science. It was supposed to be easily digestible for the masses and it is. If you choose not to believe it that's your option. Have a nice day!

[myTake Owner]

I'd actually say most of it is common knowledge among them*

[myTake Owner]

You could apparently check this out:

citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/.../download

it's kind of dry though and that's why I posted it in this format.

[Song4TheBroken]

Well if there are no peer reviewed studies, stop trying to present your opinions as facts. And i would like any links that show women enjoy being dominated as a response to rape. Also, i would just like a link that proves the MAJORITY of women enjoy being dominated. Because for every woman who likes being submissive, you'll probably find one who likes to be the dominant one. And by the way NONE of what you said is 'common knowledge' to ANY psychologist or biologist, just you and your deluded mind.

[Song4TheBroken]

I'm not gonna check that link out because the only way i can view it is by downloading it.

[myTake Owner]

Well if there are no peer reviewed studies, stop trying to present your opinions as facts. And i would like any links that show women enjoy being dominated as a response to rape. Also, i would just like a link that proves the MAJORITY of women enjoy being dominated. Because for every woman who likes being submissive, you'll probably find one who likes to be the dominant one. And by the way NONE of what you said is 'common knowledge' to ANY psychologist or biologist, just you and your deluded mind. Sure it is common knowledge and as far as I can tell I'm not deluded although you apparently believe it to be so. But you believing something does not necessarily make it true. You're emotionally driven and that's fine. Different strokes. I also never said they do I said they could and they can. It's an evolutionary adaptation to it happening frequently in the past. Cultural psychology plays a part in conditioning a person's mind, obviously. I can get more information but you seem upset.

[myTake Owner]

"This hypothesis is that women are typically excluded from power and are viewed as objects of exchange. Because of their restricted paths for individual advancement, women seek in mates those characteristics associated with power such as earning capacity and higher education. Hypergamy, the tendency for women to marry upward in socioeconomic status, thus composes the primary traditional channel for upward mobility for women. Men, in contrast, place a premium on the quality of the "exchange object" itself, and so value physical beauty (e. g., enhanced value as a sex object). Physical attractiveness becomes a central means for designating relative value among exchange commodities. Traditional socialization" I also just linked you to what appears to be peer reviewed science. I could probably find more. I also didn't say the entirety of this was necessarily fact but a fair amount of that is. Females were raped throughout history, fact. They also had children from those rapes, another fact

[Song4TheBroken]

Lol why on earth would i be upset? It's more like i get annoyed by people who attempt to present their personal opinion as fact, that's all. To me, scientific truth is very important, which is why i get so annoyed at things like this.

[Song4TheBroken]

I should have used the word DELUSION instead of opinion, because when it comes to the truth, one's opinion is irrelevant.

[myTake Owner]

Upset... annoyed, semantics. The point I'm making is that you are letting your emotions get involved. In either case me not backing that up to you specifically would not necessarily make it untrue. It would mean I would need to prove it to you in order for you to believe it which is reasonable and I'm fine with that. The problem is you don't believe it and have thus concluded it is untrue. That is a grave mistake in reason unfortunately. I will however attempt to find more information if you like?

[Song4TheBroken]

So you're attempting to convince people that a psychologist's opinion is a scientific fact? Seriously? Hahaha

[Song4TheBroken]

I will wait here for the evidence, the burden of proof is on you, not me.

[myTake Owner]

No. I'm planning to convince people that females have probably adapted to rape because it happened A LOT in the past. It being only an opinion is probably a stretch. However I plan to look into it more. I've seen what I consider reliable sources in the past and that is how I drew this conclusion.

[myTake Owner]

I agree. The burden of proof lies ENTIRELY on me and that is why I'm planning to bring you information along with other people who have questions. I'm quite interested in the subject. However, I'm about to eat. I would suggest you check this out in the mean time: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_coercion

There are more solid sources at the bottom, I think. I will find more 'reliable' information shortly.

[Song4TheBroken]

by the way i don't think you quite understand how evolution actually works, if you believe females could have recently 'evolved' a preference for being sexually dominated.

[myTake Owner]

Not at all. Evolution has occurred over millions of years. I think the behavior was only solidified with humans. It probably occurred with our primate ancestors as well.

[Song4TheBroken]

You *think* is the important word here. I might *think* that there is a magical unicorn orbiting saturn right now, doesn't mean it's true though.

[myTake Owner]

I suppose at this point it would be my hypothesis if you want to get technical but I've seen other information in the past that would lead me personally to believe that it is more sound science. Also, psychology is not a hard science for one very important reason: humans have a massive variance in their ways of thinking and it's hard to fully grasp and quantify it. There are, however, consistencies and that's what gave rise to psychology, sociology, and other soft sciences.

[myTake Owner]

voila first link

https://www.upf.edu/estiu/_pdf/1363_info.pdf

[myTake Owner]

You also seem to be like me. You could have done some of this research yourself but that is a decent place to start I'd think. I used to believe what you did also by the way.

[myTake Owner]

voila second link

en.wikipedia.org/.../Sexual_coercion

[myTake Owner]

I would recommend you don't just assume things are false. I would suggest you do your research.

[Song4TheBroken]

Firstly, i'm not gonna download that pdf because i don't like downloading unknown files. Secondly, you provide me with a link to a WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE about rape and you believe it counts as scientific evidence? Mate, i used to be just like you, not the other way around. I used to accept things as fact despite there being zero scientific evidence, just because it was 'common knowledge'. And you said it yourself, psychology as a whole is a load of old bollox. It's nothing more than guess work based on a very small sample size. I suppose you believe that men and women have 'different brains' and 'think differently' because it's such 'common knowledge' right?

[myTake Owner]

Lol you actually made me smile so thank you for that. I respect that you don't download files but most peer reviewed science comes in that form (PDF) so you can research it yourself I guess. It comes from a reliable source. Check the URL. "Secondly, you provide me with a link to a WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE about rape and you believe it counts as scientific evidence? Mate, i used to be just like you, not the other way around. I used to accept things as fact despite there being zero scientific evidence, just because it was 'common knowledge'" Lol no and no. I only suggested you use the wikipedia article for the links/citations at the bottom assuming they are there, they typically are and often times they are sound from my experience. I've seen the information and for me it appears valid... you not believing it does not make it so. That is a very egocentric and false outlook. If you don't want to view my links I would suggest you do your own research if you find it interesting as I do.

[myTake Owner]

My goal was just to give people a starting point to confront the societal notion that dominant and submissive relationships are an abomination because as far as I can tell that couldn't be much farther from the truth. I want the truth. Whatever that is. So if you find somewhere that what I'm saying isn't true I'd appreciate it.

[AdamThomas]

Is BDSM really natural? You can be dominant without all the whips and chains and all that.

[myTake Owner]

I'm talking about dominance. Whips and chains have to do with sadism more as I understand. I'm almost talking about a more mild type of BDSM.

[tenofthepeaks]

normal? how? I doubt most people actually do it.

it seems weird to many people, but then there is no true normal in sexuality. provided all is consensual, anything should go.

[Anonymous]

I agree but the only man allowed to dominate me is my future husband I won't accept any man even touch my body
Human being is far away from feminist it's prove
So female mostly love to be dominitaed
I want to marry husband that control me

[Anonymous]

I find it normal, to a point. When it becomes painful for one or both members, it's not normal.

[Anonymous]

Meh... I actually prefer dominant girls.

[myTake Owner]

To each his own. There are always anomalies. I'm talking about the majority.

[Opinion Owner]

Majority is stupid,. that's why the "democracy" is the worst system ever.

[myTake Owner]

To an extent I agree. Humans have the special ability to diverge from their biological programming, for better or worse, and make their own choices.

[Opinion Owner]

Indeed, ancient Greek philosopher Plato once said: "You see my friend the three shepherds on the hill? As long as they can outvote me and Socrates, and then makes decisions, I will not believe in democracy".

[myTake Owner]

I agree. Even the USA founders realized that. That is what gave rise to the electoral college which in theory would mitigate the effects of rule by the masses. It certainly doesn't always work though. Also most governments today are Republics not Democracies. That is a common misconception.

[myTake Owner]

"is an agricultural development. That you don't get to choose your own mate, must be fluke evolution, before that women did very well get to choose their own mate. And men adapted to their desires" No... Women have not entirely ever entirely chosen their own mates until somewhat recently. They had input but it was more complex than that. It also wouldn't change my point so I'm not sure what you're saying. This isn't about choosing a mate (although men mostly decided that) this is about sex and the idea that even if females did not want to have sex persay they would anyway and adapted to that. I'm not sure how to make it anymore simple than that.

[myTake Owner]

"You're right not all, primates are monogamous, among those that are polygamous, the males that are not the alpha males, do not rape. Mostly. They try to get with the females and try to fight the alpha, but the vast majority of them don't rape" They don't rape because they can't. The so-called alpha stops it. Not females. That's them being territorial. So I don't see your point. The alpha still has sex with them and they comply which is my original point. They adapted to the alpha having sex with them even when they might not have wanted to.

[Opinion Owner]

LOL, I never mentioned primates in the opinion :P

[myTake Owner]

OH wow. I posted that in the wrong box. Too funny.

[Anonymous]

Male domination, female submission. That's what the best sex is made of. Always will be despite all the best efforts of feminists.

BSDM is just normal human sexuality.

[thesunstillshines]

This is the best answer

[Opinion Owner]

Thank you. I agree... ;)

[Anonymous]

I had a lot of feminist (women) friends, who I now blame for mentally emasculating me by talking all this crap about porn-being-about-domination, unacceptable maschismo in the bedroom, etc...

Smarter women realise that all this could be role playing at best or pandering to the male ego (in the bedroom only) at worst.

[myTake Owner]

I've been in a very similar position! It's certainly a fascinating subject.

[Anonymous]

Y'know there's Femdom too right?

[ThePurplePrincess]

Exactly girl! And what about gay men who like to dominated? Where does that fit into rape to pleasure evolution? This argument though well written borders on the scary in how its possible for men to justify rape or sexual harassment - "don't blame me - blame evolution! I'm made to rape-dom you!"

[myTake Owner]

@HeartsBloodDupre Femdom probably isn't evolutionary though and that's why it's MUCH less common. It's likely cultural or a hormonal imbalance. Nothing necessarily wrong with that though. @ThePurplePrincess Homosexuality is (supposedly) the result of environmental factors and genetics, it is also an anomaly. Evolution does not equal morality. Morality is either divinely inspired or created by people (i. e. moral relativism). So it's completely subjective. I'm primarily here to give you facts. Do with them as you will! Also, another thing I will say though: humans are not limited by our biology we are only influenced by it. We can choose to make decisions that work best for us. That's why we have laws, because it's much easier to just do what we want but that isn't always in the best interest of civilization. It's hard to fit all of this info into 2000 words. This subject matter could probably fill a large book.

[myTake Owner]

Thank you @ThePurplePrincess though :)

[Opinion Owner]

@Take Owner I've actually heard the opposite xD Millions of men love Femdom xD

[myTake Owner]

@HeartsBloodDupre even if there were millions of men who enjoyed it, assuming you mean worldwide, it would still be a relatively small percentage of the overall population of men (around 3-4 billion). Not to mention that I strongly doubt that to begin with as I've looked into it and the percentages even among tendencies within the BDSM culture males seeking to be submissive are typically well in the minority. Not to mention we're talking about preferences and not enjoyment. You could, in theory, psychologically condition a male to enjoy being dominated but that would not allude to evolutionary tendency. It would also possibly explain why males today like it at all. Maybe they have been conditioned to like it because of our somewhat feminized culture, aside of course from anomalies that would have probably happened anyway. However, if you come across statistics/studies in the contrary I'd love to read them :)

[werepuppy]

and i'm sitting here, practically straight, and a sub...

[myTake Owner]

@werepuppy I'm not saying there is something wrong with you, per-say. I'm just explaining how evolution and psychologically, typically, works. Everyone can choose their own path and that's the beauty of psychology and higher cognitive processing. My view is that if it makes you happy and you aren't infringing on someone else's life, liberty, or property then go forth and prosper! The goal of this post was to eliminate the apparent cultural notion that (at least mildly) dominant and submissive relationships are an anomaly. This is almost certainly false at least among heterosexual males and females. I'm also quite certain it is culture and it fights against biology. The bottom line is that I apologize if I offended you as that was not my goal. I want to bring forth as accurate information as I can and let people do with it what they will.

[Izzy2102]

take owner you're not presenting facts though, you're presenting a theory. There are no facts in your post. None at all. And I do agree @ThePurplePrincess it's a fine line you're on. If you think through what you said you are justifying rape as normal and natural. BDSM isn't rape though, it's always consensual. As I said in my post, it's more about showing qualities that make a desirable mate overall. I mean look at the pics you posted. One very fit attractive guy, indicating good health. The other one of a man in suit (indicating ability to provide) hugging her as if protecting her, indicating the ability to... well... protect. And that certainly has nothing to do with rape. In fact men historically spend an awful lot of time and effort protecting women from other men

[myTake Owner]

@Izzy2102 "take owner you're not presenting facts though, you're presenting a theory. There are no facts in your post. None at all." Uh no... they could be facts I just didn't provide backing for said facts. A fact is a fact regardless. "And I do agree @ThePurplePrincess it's a fine line you're on. If you think through what you said you are justifying rape as normal and natural." It probably is natural to an extent. Normal... not so much. "BDSM isn't rape though, it's always consensual. As I said in my post, it's more about showing qualities that make a desirable mate overall. I mean look at the pics you posted. One very fit attractive guy, indicating good health." Eh... it is not. But dominance and submission was not always consensual throughout history, persay.

[myTake Owner]

"I mean look at the pics you posted. One very fit attractive guy, indicating good health. The other one of a man in suit (indicating ability to provide) hugging her as if protecting her, indicating the ability to... well... protect. And that certainly has nothing to do with rape. In fact men historically spend an awful lot of time and effort protecting women from other men" I'm not advocating rape. I agree with you. Those qualities are factors also. You do realize the whole point of my post was to say that dominance and submission were somewhat normal not rape. I'm not sure what you're getting at. I was also saying it was voluntary. I was talking about our evolutionary past as a reference point and not to justify rape. Is that your hangup?

[Izzy2102]

I agree it's normal but your reasoning as for why it's normal just isn't supported by any evidence and also logically conclusive

[myTake Owner]

"I agree it's normal but your reasoning as for why it's normal just isn't supported by any evidence and also logically conclusive" Not necessarily. The only thing we know to be true is that it's not supported by evidence you've seen and understood thus far. I would refer you back to our discussion as I have already addressed this concern.

[myTake Owner]

@Izzy2102 It would be logically "inconclusive" first off and no again I addressed this in my other post. You apparently aren't very familiar with logic if I understand you correctly. Also, you mostly agree with me anyway it seems like so I don't see the issue here. You don't like rape being made to seem "normal" or "acceptable" which was never my point, persay at least today. Maybe you were raped or something and that's your hangup. If that happened it's terrible (in my opinion) but you shouldn't let that keep you from the truth because the truth will set you free. I'm not really the sensitive type unfortunately in these kinds of situations, especially when people are being (falsely) disrespectful.