Why do people shame MGTOWs and Herbivore men?

[Anonymous]

I get that a lot of MGTOWs are guys that got divorced and had a bad time of it or had a lot of horrible experiences with women like getting acused of rape or whatever else, so I understand they have some anger in them and it's understandable, but disregarding any resentful overtones why doesn't the concept of men being "done" playing that game get them automatically labeled pathetic? Herbivore guys don't even have the anger issues and yet they get supremely shamed in the exact same way. But when women disregard relationships it's considered "empowerment" and it's almost celebrated or revered. From what I've picked up it seems to be rooted in traditionalist thought: Rejecting the social/cultural expectation of men paying service to women or disregarding the innate value attributed to females negates all value in the male and any sexual interest from females, and not just negating interest but fostering strong disapproval, as if they are being male wrong, like they fucked it up somehow. Given the observed nature of women's reaction and it's prevalence across cultures (at least in the West and in Japan as exemplified by MGTOW and herbivores if nothing else), it pressents as a very instinctual reponse rather than something articulate. So what are your feelings and thoughts about this? Do your feelings and thoughts align or do you feel one way in spite of thinking another?

[hellionthesage]

"Rejecting the social/cultural expectation of men paying service to women or disregarding the innate value attributed to females negates all value in the male and any sexual interest from females, and not just negating interest but fostering strong disapproval, as if they are being male wrong, like they fucked it up somehow"

I think this is a fairly accurate assesment. Though there are also biological components, biology is the foundation of all things society and behavior are merely extentions of it so to deny the gender roles is to deny biology which of course has adverse effects (as can be seen when you look at the repression of emotions or sexual desires, they become perverted and destructive). As for why so many hate them for it, a womans power lies in men whether or not she wishes to admit it. A womans standing is based on mate selection (the better the mate the better she herself must be) this is why studies have shown that women respond negatively to women who are "aggressively" attractive (women who use makeup and low cut shirts etc) its a display of attractiveness which they then get "catty" to reduce that individuals social standing in order to bolster there own for a better chance at a more desirable mate, essentially the female equivalent of two men competeing for a woman. Now you remove men from that pool and this dynamic falls apart there is no more competition there standing has no meaning or in fact decreases because a desirable mate (or any potential mate really) has shunned them reducing there social standing and by extention there power. The same is true for men, we acquire goods and resources (fancy house/car money etc) in order to prove our worth to a prospective mate, when a man refuses to participate he has essentially shown himself to be of "no value" or not acting like a man (a mans value is based off of what he can do/provide a womans is based off of her physical ability to give birth and by extention her genetic strength ie body) If he isn't participating he is no longer valuable and therefore is shunned as a form of shaming in order to try and force him back into the "game" so to speak. Besides that feminism and western society has essentially told women that they should have no rules that apply to them, if men follow suit (as they are begining to do) we have a social break down but with females traditionally being a much more fluid role (scandinavian shield maidens come to mind) combined with there higher value do to there

[hellionthesage]

reproductive/nursing abilities has given women more lee way while men have (currently/historicly) a much more rigid structured role so it was more tolerant for women to shift (negate) there role while it is much more frowned upon for a man to do so hence the hostility.

[Anonymous]

MGTOW seems to be more about counter-feminism than it does about "men going their own way". If it WERE just about men who decide they're not interested in women right now, then a) there wouldn't need to be an organized "movement" or a label for it.

[Asker]

From what I can tell it's not an organized movement. It's been around for like 15 years and they never really need a name but as the media picked up on it's prevalence everyone took to calling it the "sexodus" and the term Men Going Their Own Way became their label. A minority of them seem vocal moreso than "organized." I think most of them are just "done" so aren't that interested in gender politics. But whatever, even if you're talking about MRAs and Anti-Feminists, they have plenty of support and are by and large very egalitarian and make a good point. I don't think people have more problems with feminism that those people. So for me this doesn't explain the perceived repugnance of the guys opting out.

[Darkfairie17]

To me, it sounds like some guys who have been hurt in one way or another. I don't feel any need to shame them. Their experiences obviously have affected them in a way that they feel they need to swear off relationships. I actually visited a MGTOW site and read some postings on the message boards. A lot have had to go through divorce, have had their wives leave them, have lost all contact with their kids. I've seen some terrible situations, so I can understand the anger there.

However, as I kept reading it does become apparent that some of the guys on there clearly don't take responsibility for their role in the problems they face. One guy admitted to having an affair with a married woman, even noticing the ring on her finger while he was getting a bj. Did he tell her to stop because she was married? No, he kept letting her do her thing. But then criticized her for having an affair. Wait a minute, HE contributed to the affair by sleeping with a married woman, even after he knew she was married (he asked her about it). I think that type of behaviour deserves shame. Like, he thinks it's distasteful if a woman does it to him, but he's willing to put another man through it too? Women who sleep with married men get shamed all the time. What the woman did was wrong too, and she should also be shamed. But the blame doesn't lie just on her, because you can't have an affair alone. If that were me, I would have had a lot to say to the person about how wrong it is what they are doing, then I would have left and not continued my interaction with them.

Some even seem to think that all women cheat, and play the victim mentality. We know that BOTH sexes cheat on one another. It unfortunately is a reality in our lives. However, not everyone does, there are faithful people out there. I feel bad if some of the guys were cheated on. But that's hardly a reason to write off the entire gender.

I think the main reason there is any shame, is because some of the guys are not thinking clearly and make sweeping generalizations about women to prove their points. We know on GAG what generalizations are like and they are seldom the truth. Anyone who makes these types of generalizations usually gets blasted for it.

[SilenRose]

Uggh, I hate when third party offenders to an affair don't take responsibility for their part.

[washize]

You shouldn't lump MGTOW and Herbivore men in the same category.

MGTOW (often times) are men who blame ALL women for the personal unpleasant experiences that they've had romantically in their lives. While they are free to refrain from dating anyone for any reason, the problem with this group is that generally they are a hate group towards women. The issue isn't that they aren't dating women, but that they are volatile towards ALL women. If it isn't right for a woman to hate all men after being brutally raped, then it isn't right for a man to hate all women because he was dumped.

Herbivore men are men from japan who reject traditional gender-roles of men. They don't want to work 18 hour days away from their families, they don't want all the stress that leads to unhappiness and suicide. The Japanese are hive minded, so any behavior that goes against the group is rejected. Instead of spending most of their lives doing what they are told to do, they put that time and energy into doing what makes them happy. Its mainly about building social structures that the average Japanese man does not have. Dating in Japan is also far more complicated and gendered than in is in America. In Japan you don't speak to or interact with people outside of your social circle. Many men go their whole lives without interacting with women outside of their families. Also In Japan it isn't acceptable for married women to work (she is expected to quit her job to raise children) so a man MUST be the financial provider in the relationship. This is difficult in Japan because of how expensive it is. So dating in Japan is extremely stressful for men and women. Which is why both genders are rejecting marriage and children. However while more men are pursing women less and having less sexual experiences. Japanese women are having more sexual experiences than men, but are rejecting marriage and children. Its complicated.

[Cookies_AndMilk]

I honestly don't know too much about the MGTOW movement and I needed to look up herbivore men because I thought you were talking about vegetarians, but from what I've seen it's somewhat like the guy version of a femnazi. Both parties look like hate groups, and I can't agree with either of that. Men and women were designed to compliment and complete each other, not to be against one another. I personally value the men in my life and I'd feel really sad if they felt the need to go against women because of the monstrosities that exist in our gender. I understand the reason behind the creation of the group. When women go through something they have all the supportive resources in the world but not men. It's good that men finally have somewhere to turn to especially knowing how rare it is for men to receive emotional support and genuine help. As long as they aren't being crazy and hateful, then maybe it's a necessary evil. It's good to unite under something but not when your blinded by hatred or being scorned. I know lots of women pick men apart to the bone when they've been done wrong, so why can't the guys? Personally I thinks it's all stupid as there's a greater plan to pin men against women and tear apart the family unit and I'd say it's working beautifully. As long as it's not my man then it's whatever. Based on what I've seen they've been less harmful than femnazis but that might change as this becomes more popular.

[Metlahaed]

MGTOW is the masculine version of feminazis... Wow... perfect. *slow clap* THIS.

[Cookies_AndMilk]

@Metlahaed I don't know why but I'm not sure if this is sarcasm. xD I'm going to go the other route and take this as a compliment. So thank you! :D

[Metlahaed]

No, it isn't sarcasm.

[Cookies_AndMilk]

Aha I see, well thank you. :)

[Asker]

You make it sound like an organized movement with goals, it's not. It's not an extension of the men's rights movement, let alone a radical sub-set of it, it's definitely not a feminazi equivalent. It's not even political, it's philosophical and it's not trying to foster hate against women, apart from a few really vocal jerks that identify as MGTOW, these would be your feminazi counterparts. It's men that have been slowly turning to this idea for like15 years, it's not a movement that got together and that was "started" or "happened" all at once. It's just a bunch of sites and forums that are an unashamedly male space. I wouldn't even call it all that supportive for men, I personally am not really sure how I would be supported by them when I have problems.

[Cookies_AndMilk]

Okay, I didn't intend to make it sound like anything as in my very first sentence I said I didn't know much about it. I said men need a place to go to as well, so who cares? If it provides support or an outlet then sure it's whatever. If it's united by hate then no it's not a good thing. Maybe reread what I posted because I think you've misunderstood what I said.

[itsallover]

Because these men claim that they're sooo completely over women and want nothing to do with them, yet they still rant and whine online about us and how toxic feminism is in society, usually in a misogynistic manner. If they don't want anything to do with women then they need to stop complaining about us and move on with their lives.

[Curmudgeon]

If you weren't reaching into our wallets or messing with our careers, we would.

[itsallover]

@Curmudgeon Ugh, you epitomise exactly what they complain about. How exactly are we messing with your careers?

[zagor]

Well, I miss the sex. And that's pretty much all.

[Bards]

Downvotes produced by losers.

[itsallover]

@Bards Indeed

[itsallover]

@zagor Good for you

[Curmudgeon]

Affirmative action? Sleazy office politics? Phony sexual harrassment lawsuits? Sorry toots, I have been in the corporate world too long and seen it all... :P

[weegin]

They are basically Meninists. They act like Feminists, but for men. Both groups are toxic, so they aren't wrong. But they are hypocrites oftentimes.

[Bards]

@weegin don't confuse feminazi and a feminist. Meninist isn't a thing and its not on par with Feminist. Generalization are gross.

[Asker]

I don't think they are all that vocal and do move on, it's the vocal portion that misrepresents them. It's been occurring for a while but once people started noticing they ended up being called MGTOWs which I think now has them lumped in with the most negative and vocal characters with the label. Which is sort of like feminism except feminism is political and has more stupid people accepted in the mainstream while pushing through harmful ideas and attitudes that actually seem to influence law and policy makers. You realise Meninists are a joke right? @weegin It claimed the same gender equality definition as feminism and just waiting for feminists to come out of the woodwork to start their shitstorms. They did and they embarrassed themselves, it worked like a charm; post a picture of yourself wearing a Meninist T-shirt and watch feminists flip out over nothing.

[Griffon]

I agree: any woman who calls herself a feminist should welcome MGTOW. It's allowing people to be free of gender roles.

[itsallover]

That makes no sense

[itsallover]

You can still have heterosexual relationships that are free of gender roles.

[Griffon]

@itsallover yes, but you can't DEMAND them. Honestly, a lot of women are being hypocritical spoiled brats over this. Is a woman REQUIRED to be in a relationship with a man? Then why are men required to? They don't owe you anything. They aren't causing any harm. All they want is to be left alone, and women are telling them "no, how DARE you NOT make us part of your life?" It's so selfish that it baffles me. Do you want equality or not? Make up your minds, people.

[OpinionOnEverything]

@Griffon Now they don't. Didn't you figure it out already? It's equality except where it's superiority.

[Griffon]

@OpinionOnEverything I really it because it sucks to see your own have so little self awareness and insight. But they are literally angry that men are choosing to do what they want rather than pleasing them. They're down voting me, but haven't given me a single reason why.

[XRabbitHeartX]

I have no problem with anyone "going their own way". It's a personal choice and doesn't have anything to do with someone else. I just dislike how many of those men think ALL women are the same and hate on our entire gender. It's fine to say you've had bad experiences and want to stop dating (I get that) or whatever but there comes a point where some of those men just turn into downright woman haters with irrational beliefs about females.

[udolipixie]

Why do people shame MGTOWs and Herbivore men?

Likely the same reason people shame feminists and herbivore women (there are more female herbivores than males going by most studies I've seen). That reason being often people perceive bitterness, resentment, and gender hate in the groups.

So what are your feelings and thoughts about this?
My thought is that it is unfortunate for me that more guys aren't herbivores rather than whine about being foreveralone and incel.

[Asker]

Are you saying herbivores are forced into that because they were foreveralone and incel?

[udolipixie]

No. I clearly stated: that it is unfortunate for me that more guys aren't herbivores rather than whine about being foreveralone and incel. That means I find it a negative that more guys aren't't herbivores instead of forever alone/incel. How did you get 'want more guys to be herbivores instead of foreveralone/incel' means 'guys are forced into herbivores because they were foreveralone/incel'?

[godfatherfan]

umm... WTF is MGTOW? sounds a lot like your describing me... but dude?

[SilenRose]

Men Going Their Own Way

[JuicyBrain]

Nobody has a problem with MGTOWS really. It's those that keep spewing shit on women openly that get hated on. If you go on a site where women's opinion is welcomed and prized and you leave an opinion saying All women sucks and are stupid, well you're going to get some hate, rightfully so.

[Billlewis]

Because we need to be shamed.

[allahu_snackbar]

Because they are whiny bitches.

[Metlahaed]

It is mostly because they are bigots and sexists, and blame everything OUTSIDE of themselves, instead of recognizing the reality which is that the problem lies WITHIN them. *This is a generalization*

[Minxxie]

True they are childish because they blame everything on other people (women) and never stop to think about what THEY might have done wrong. They can't own up to their own failures like adults that is why they get ridiculed.

[Asker]

Even if that's the case, why is the *concept* so reprehensible? I did say "disregarding any resentful overtones." Those opinions of them don't hold up when looking at herbivores. Herbivore men exemplify the concept and the disapproval of the concept in spite of the absence of whatever anger issues you might perceive in MGTOWs. So what of the herbivores?

[Asker]

@Minxxie This is the sort of automatic disapproval I'm talking about, you're jumping to that conclusion. Why it assumed that they failed somehow? - and again, what then of the herbivores?

[zagor]

What a stupid generalization. A lot of men just don't like to deal with the social BS. Or dirty diapers. What does that have to do with bigotry?

[Metlahaed]

Never heard of herbivore. Didn't comment on them. @Zagor I generalized MGTOW men, not men. They are bigots because they can't handle the truth, and the band together to live on their lies, woman hate, and believe themselves when they say they aren't the problem.

[Kirah]

People who actively shame MGTOW are people who are in denial over the sexist divorce courts.

[bubble_tea]

I think you are confused. People aren't shaming MGTOWs and Herbivore men whatever that is. They are probably shaming the hypocritical or mysogynistic men who just happen to label themselves as MGTOWs or Herbivore men.

If I were single and asked a dude out and he said "Thanks but no. I'm MGTOW." I'd be "Cool. Bye" and move on.

[letsbefriends25]

Nobody likes groups of people whose sole purpose in life is to fuel their hatred against another group. No one likes feminazis. No one likes MGTOWs.
Maybe some men have been hurt in the past by someone female. They should reserve their hate for that someone, not all females! How does that make any sense?

And truthfully, no one likes it when someone tries to play the victim.

[Bandit74]

I can understand not being interested in marriage but I don't really see the need to swear off women completely. There's still relationships and fwbs. I respect their decision tho, if that's what they feel us best for them.

My main issue with mgtow is that they complain too much. I find it funny when guys who "supposedly" don't care about women anymore spend a lot of their time complaining about women online. Many of them seem to brag about it like they want women to know they are a mgtow and to beg them to start dating again. A true mgtow would avoid women in silence.

That being said, I do think it would be interesting if a large minority of men (20-30%) did truly decide to avoid relationships with women. It would just be really cool to see how that would affect dating dynamics and the marriage market. If 20-30% of men took themselves off the market then there would be 20-30% of women who would also be single. They would then have to choose between being single or sharing a guy with another girl/girls.
maybe I'm fucked in the head but part of me kinda hopes that happens so I could see how things unfold 😈

[Watermelonoma]

you're like me. I too would love to see what would happen. Actually, i kind of already have an idea... because i know that it would likely mean that the bar will be lowered in terms of dating, because there won't be as much left to pick from for women. I mean look at how things are today. You have more women than ever in history actually being proactive in pursuing men. It use to be close to 100% a man's job... but now things are so bad, with guys hardly approaching anymore, that more and more women have had to step out of their comfort zone. It basically will result in a great scenario for guys still interested in relationships

[Bandit74]

@Watermelonoma Yeah the power would slip more to the male side. "It basically will result in a great scenario for guys still interested in relationships" definitely 😈 but then the other guys might realize this and feel tempted to rejoin the dating scene 😠

[Watermelonoma]

gonna have to find a girl then in the time it takes them to wisen up xD

[Bandit74]

@watermelonoma Lol, true.

[Bards]

Only shame them when they spew women hate. Other than that idc what they do.

[TheButterfly]

I dont understand why two guys down voted this. Is it wrong to not like guys who dont like us? That seems like common sense to be off putted by rude and mean people.

[Bards]

@TheButterfly pussy ass niggas exist. Very bitter ones. The scientific term is misogynist.

[weegin]

@TheButterfly The definition of "women hate" can very wildly depending who you ask :P

[Watermelonoma]

I find that a lot of them are just guys who are super pissed about their virginity, or guys who are super afraid of rejection, so instead of approaching women.. they try to convince themselves via MGTOW that women aren't worth it. I've seen very few genuine MGTOWs. Most of the genuine ones are quiet about their MGTOW status, or they run youtube channels like Sandman or Luimarco. Besides people like that, i have a lot of skepticism of MGTOW'ers in general. I think it would take one moderately attractive woman showing interest in them to bring most of these men back onto the plantation. I think a lot of people who think they are MGTOWs need to muster up some introspective intelligence and actually question the real reason behind why they've chosen that route

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

honestly, i'm gonna start off by saying i didn't read any of it because i'm lazy.

i don't care if you're a man or woman vegetarian (herbivore). i hate all of you. while killing animals may be wrong, y'all are plant killers!

but in semi more seriousness, it depends on the reason. but if it's because it's because you "feel bad for animals", then i think it's stupid (in general) because we are designed omnivores. if we were herbivores, we would be biologically built for it. you need protein and other forms of energy that are found in animals. this is not a perfect analogy, but it's like saying it's bad to drive a jeep off road because of the rugged terrain. jeeps were specifically designed for the ability to travel in the jungle.

with all that said, i really couldn't care less whether you eat meat. it's your life, dude. as for society, it's because it's seen as more manly. also, because it's a good source of energy and ways to naturally build protein (as mentioned earlier). so going back to basic primal instincts, eating meat leads to being stronger to provide for women i guess (idk if that's really a reason, but sounds kinda science-y).

now, if you don't like the taste of most (or any) meat, that's a different story. i don't like the taste of a lot of foods as i'm a picky eater and a super taster and have arfid (i literally can throw up from the taste and texture of certain foods).

[itsallover]

You would have been better off reading it all because your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with what was said in the description.

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

@itsallover fair enough... can i get brownie points for being honest upfront?

[itsallover]

Lol, sure.

[Asker]

Being honest about a totally acceptable opinion? No brownie points for you.

doyouremember.com/.../soup-nazi-right.jpg

[Other_Tommy_Wiseau]

why you gotta do me like dat, bruh :(?

[Unit1]

I as a MGTOW can only do my very own part and just refuse to get married. I am however not contributing something to the community whatsoever. I'm just going MY way, not their way.

I cannot support the extremists of MGTOW, who make females responsible if something went wrong. That's just, where the shame is applied correctly. Exactly the same goes actually vice versa.

Shaming. There's shaming for everything and it always has been in the human history. I call them either racists (if origin based) or (if gender based) sexists or (if just brute) idiots.

[RationalMale]

There's a difference between being that guy at the bar who is just enjoying his drink and not bothering to approach women...

And the guy who stands up "I'm sick and tired of all this, I can't take it anymore, I quit and you can't stop me!"

[jaydogs1990]

I hear it big in Japan.

[Nathand]

humans are so petty and tiny

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[Aeon_Flux_21]

Society doesn't want to know the harsh truth about reality because it's too depressing. If you tell people most of the things we are told and learned growing up was all BS they'll be pissed then deny it.

MGTOW men are creature consumed in truths. People hate most truths = they shame and reject MGTOW.

On this site I try to tell people that love is merely a chemical reaction. Most people here attack me for that comment. Humanity can't handle blunt depressing truths about human species.

[hellionthesage]

the depressing part is how you percieve it not in the truth itself.