The Basis of Feminism and Why it Needs to Change

[moistycakes]

I've heard many men and women declaring they are no longer feminists, or have never been one. To identify as feminist now is something many are ashamed or scared to admit. We have lost the meaning of what true feminism is, and what it stands for. Feminism is equality between the sexes.

Without the brave men and women in the first wave of feminism we would not be allowed to vote. We would not be allowed to receive a higher education. We would not be allowed to be financially independent. We would not be allowed to own property. We would not be allowed to get a divorce. We would not have the right to birth control. The fact that you are able to walk around a university campus holding hands with a man/woman you're having sex with but not married to is all thanks to the feminist of the past.

I understand that for many, feminism is now a negative thing. Online we see women blaming the patriarchy for their unhappiness, and working against men, not with them. Which, I truly believe is destroying the real meaning and purpose of feminism.

Men have a few things to thank the feminist movement for:

- Successfully changing the legal definition of rape to include men as victims, instead of just women.(Source)

- They can choose whether or not to go to war.

- Ability to work in traditionally female dominated jobs. (eg. nursing, teaching)

- Allowed men to have unpaid leave in their jobs.

Statistics by Lifeline show that men make up 3/5 suicides in Australia. This is a feminist issue as much as anything else is. (Source)

There are many issues that men face today that are left behind by many modern day feminists. This is not feminism. Stereotyping men is not feminism. Working against men is not feminism. Hating men is not feminism.

Men have to be included in this new wave of feminism, because air conditioning in the work place and protesting fathers day are not examples of feminism, rather examples of insanity.

So why can't we work together to recreate feminism, and tackle equality issues together?

Why does feminism have to be a negative thing?

I am a true feminist, and I am not ashamed of it!

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Feminists keep reciting the "definition" to people and it isn't a good argument to make and convinces no one. Do you really think it comes down to a simple misunderstanding of definition?

I think you would be allowed to vote, because there were suffragettes (feminists) and suffragists, feminism doesn't have a monopoly on equality. Even back in the day, feminists were doing crazy shit, while there were others working toward equality like normal people. Even if you didn't get the vote, it would be because you chose not to get the vote. Women argued *against* the vote for 75 years before universal voting came in, so I wouldn't even use the right to vote as a metric of women's discrimination.

I don't know about higher education, but women were allowed to be financially independent and own property, it was called "fem sole" and had been in law long before women had the vote.

Men couldn't get divorced either, so why bring it up?

I don't know about the birth control thing.

We can thank feminists for being able to holding hands and having sex with someone you're not married to? Who told you that? Feminists? Hmm... ( -_-)

A Salon article is hardly trustworthy and all they did was talk about how the definition was changed and tried to accredit that to feminism. Show me they actually were responsible for this change. Furthermore, it was only changed to define boys as rape victims of men. The laws for "being made to penetrate" i. e raped by a woman were only installed in 2013, that's only two years ago! - and I think you'll find feminism had little to do with it.

"They can choose whether or not to go to war." What are you talking about? There's still a draft in the US.

Feminists cry all day about no women in STEM, they do nothing to get men into female dominated fields, not that I think there's a need to.

Feminism is going to take credit for men's unpaid leave? What in the world?

Male suicide *should* be a feminist issue, and that's people's problem with feminism, because it doesn't actually do anything. At best we get lip service, if that. It's even worse an issue in the US.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Men *should* be included, yet you have people like Laurey Penny speaking in the mfing Sydney Opera House about how men must wait until the women are done speaking before they get their chance to, or that they should sit at the back of the room like black people on a bus in the 50's - and then still saying she's oppressed as a women even though she's speaking on a massive public platform being broadcast over the internet. Like wtf?

We can work to tackle equality, it's called egalitarianism or equalism. Feminism deliberately distances itself from this. Feminism defines itself as distinct from egalitarianism by it's belief in the patriarchy. That's the proper definition of feminism: We're oppressed because patriarchy.

Feminism made itself a negative thing, it shows this all the time.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

If you had any sense you wouldn't have a problem calling yourself egalitarian instead of feminist. They're both for equality right? So what's the difference? You'll get to distance yourself from feminism doing embarrassing shit like pulling funding from a documentary because the producer decided give a fair opinion of MRA's instead of painting them as evil...

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q1765976-would-you-watch-this-documentary-about-men-s-rights-activists

[RJGraveyTrain]

Feminism is the equal rights of women in comparison to men. The issue is now that men are facing social sexist issues too, which feminism doesn't focus on - which it shouldn't, in theory because feminism is a group that focuses on specific issues.

People want to believe that feminism is the equality of all people but it simply isn't - but it also isn't the superiority of women either, those are people who pervert the true definition of feminism. Feminism is just a group that focuses on a set of specific social issues, just like people who advocate for the LGBT community and so forth. The reason people no longer get behind it is due to extremists and because, like I said, there are other issues regarding the opposite gender now where they face sexism and they have far less representation than the feminist community does. This is why I'm an egalitarian.

I don't demonize feminism (though I feel the movement needs work) and see no issue with the true core values, I have many feminist views myself. However, my insight is that people focus on the radical feminists and the fact that there are more issues with sexism outside of the female issue, which feminism simply doesn't focus on.

[aegis_penguin]

Greatly said. I completely agree with you, but why the down votes? You should of gotten up votes from more guys. :/

[RJGraveyTrain]

Meh, no big.

[CavScoutTrooper]

This is 100% correct, good job.

[RJGraveyTrain]

Thank you @CavScoutTrooper.

[coconutelixir]

To be honest, even if feminism was meant to specifically help females get equal rights with men in areas that it matters... that's fine too. Just like how LGBTQ communities stand for their own equalities, and ethnic minorities their own. I don't see why only feminists have a designated duty to stand up for issues where males have a disadvantage... that should be something we all stand for. Sometimes it feels like the male issues people bring up in feminism is less about men genuinely wanting and be willing to fight for equality and more about retaliation to feminist claims. I question the intention sometimes. That's not to say the male issues aren't real... they ARE and some need serious attention such as the suicide statistic you brought up (I was taught in med school that females attempt suicide more but males succeed more). It's just that why does it seem like these conversations almost exclusively come up during feminism discussions?

That being said, there are certain aspects to modern feminism I find far too nitpicky/sensitive and unrealistic and ignorant to biological differences that exist between male and female. Another level of stupid at times. I haven't seen any of these issues succeed on a grand scale, thankfully. Have you? Every movement has its crazies, and I've always recognized it and just judge each case individually.

in my opinion, these feminism vs anti-feminism issues are blown way out of proportion on Gag. I've never witnessed anything like it... even when I had two feminist roommates at two different times, it wasn't that bad and issues didn't come up that much. I remember one roommate getting pissed at this guy for smugly admiring that his wife cooks and cleans for him... because the image of a man expecting a housewife upset her. I told her my view which is if the woman decides to be a housewife, all the power to her. I'm against people being forced against their will or denied options. My other roommate was pissed when the Neuro professor posted a book on his slideshow depicting a nude woman and thought it was inappropriately objectifying women. I told her the book he posted with a nude woman on the cover was written by a woman and he was acknowledging that female author's words as expertise on the topic he was teaching us. My roommate didn't argue.

Some of the men and women who argue so against feminism on here and so often sometimes sound as ridiculous as the people they deem feminazis. You sound level headed though, so kudos to you

[moistycakes]

That was written really well, with some awesome insights. One item of crazy did succeed, "manspreading" is now a misdemeanour in some states (males sitting with their legs apart) which to me is insane! Other than that I rarely see anything insane passing the internet. I like your opinion :)

[coconutelixir]

Thanks!! I realize I missed mentioning that I completely agree with your main point of tackling equality issues together. I had never heard of manspreading... and I just looked it up. It sounds too cartoony to be real! A misdemeanor really? How did it get that far? I'm gonna be living in NYC in a month, apparently its moreso an issue in NYC. I'm looking at articles from reputable sources and it seems like it's not just a feminism issue... it's an issue of subway etiquette in big cities and NYC cops targeting poor minorities to meet quotas. I feel like I need to live in a city and use public transportation to see if it's an issue before I say anything meaningful about it.

[moistycakes]

All I know is there was a lot of "feminist" talk about it, and then it came into action. Well, thanks girl! Good chat and enjoy NYC, it's a gorgeous place.

[MattXRT]

"Successfully changing the legal definition of rape to include men as victims, instead of just women."
That is BS. The source you provided does not claim feminists being responsible for the change in the the legal definition of rape to include men as victims.
The only passage I could find regarding male rape was
"New understandings of male vulnerability encouraged a redefinition of rape though gender-neutral laws "
The passage in itself does not ascertain feminists being responsible for them.

"They can choose whether or not to go to war."
Another blatant lie. Every male aged 18 in the US has to register for the draft. You have to send in a form registering with selective service. Failing to register can result in prosecution and, if convicted, fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison.
usgovinfo.about.com/.../draftreg.htm
Women on the other hand have never been subject to Selective Service registration or a military draft in America.

"Ability to work in traditionally female dominated jobs. (eg. nursing, teaching)"
I literally never heard of a feminist or even a woman rallying for men to be able to work in female dominated fields.

" Allowed men to have unpaid leave in their jobs."
Feminism has nothing to do with unpaid paternity leave. The federal Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) covers about half of American workers and guarantees 12 weeks of unpaid paternity leave. The bill was signed into law by President Bill Clinton in 1993.
"It was then and remains today the embodiment of my governing philosophy of empowerment through opportunity and responsibility." Bill Clinton on his reason for signing the bill
www.politico.com/.../...ars-later-87157_Page2.html

https://i.imgur.com/ALKq4zF.png

[Bookwik]

You and AllAboutTheX (seeing her post made me lookup some of these "achievements") are the heroes of this take as far as I'm concerned, mainly because you've opened my eyes to a mistake I've been doing for much of my life. Following you both

[AllAboutTheX]

This is the problem with feminism, it will try it's best to take credit for stuff that isn't real or isn't because of feminism.

Salon is NOT a reliable source for unbiased facts.
Rep. Chris Smith (R-N. J.), introduced the bill to have the definition changed. In response to heavy criticism from outside advocacy groups including MoveOn. org and the growing #dearjohn campaign. NEITHER of which were feminist groups!

Feminist have on the other hand tried to STOP the change in definition multiple times, and have supported female rapists, and false accusers numerous times.
___
Men still have no choice to sign up for the draft. Feminist has not stopped that or even tried to.
____
Feminism did not do anything so men could work in traditionally female dominated jobs. NOTHING.
____
Feminism isn't the reason men can take unpaid leave from work. Are you serious!
____
Where in your source does it show that feminism is trying to help the male suicide issue?
____
Feminism is feminism, all the different forms. They all follow the same ideology and all benefit from the actions of the rads, the lies, and the bullying. SO why bother recreating feminism. It should be disbanded and classified a hate group. Since the majority of the actions of the group are hate based. This is why there is a constant struggle for feminist to fabricate credit for shit they had no part in.
It's easy to show actual proof of feminism causing negative things, it's almost impossible to find actual and verifiable actions of feminist fighting for something EQUAL. Just speculation and false credit of other people.

"Why does feminism have to be a negative thing?" Because it IS a negative thing!
I refuse to accept feminism because it is something to be ashamed of.

[genuinlysensitive]

You go girl ;)

[AllAboutTheX]

Hey blue down vote... explain why you disagree. I am calling you out. I also am 99% sure you are the same female feminist using a fake male account that down votes every post I make. So either explain how I am wrong, or take your crap elsewhere.

[moistycakes]

Sorry girl, not me. You're entitled to your views, no point down voting to me. I wouldn't have posted it if I was going to down vote everyone whose views differ from mine. But not everyone will agree with you, blue down vote probably doesn't.

[AllAboutTheX]

As much as I appreciate that views can be different... there are certain times when "views" can be wrong regardless of how much people want to believe otherwise. When FACTS show how something actually is, you can refuse to accept it, but it doesn't magically make those facts not facts.

[moistycakes]

I think let people believe what they want, regardless of you agreeing or not. No reason to get panties in a twist over another persons views.

[AllAboutTheX]

"Let people believe what they want" are you serious right now. Feminism causes horrible shit. It pushes bigoted laws against males, it perpetuates false fears and ideas that men in general are monsters, that in itself is one of the main reasons men have no parental rights, no rape rights, no ability to protect themselves from abuse, false claims, & paternity fraud. The list is endless.
It attacks all those who don't blindly follow it, even other females. Violently!

SO when it comes to simply letting people believe what they want... NO. Not when it affects 4.5 billion people negatively and without legitimate reason.
You are essentially saying that the KKK, Nazis, Muslims, and all other hateful ideologies should simply just be allow to "believe what they want" even when that ideology is the cause of much hate, aggression, and bigotry.

[moistycakes]

I've never heard of a group of feminists killing thousands of innocent people. Regardless, I don't cause harm and have been involved in a group of over 4,000 people to raise awareness of male victims of rape and sexual assault/abuse. I think that's doing more good than harm. I cannot speak for all of the so called feminists, but anyone causing harm to me is not a feminist or a humanitarian.

[AllAboutTheX]

Feminist killed Erin Prizzy's dog. Feminist violently attacked a praying Priest. Feminist support Solana's and her SCUM manifesto, Famous feminist that you ALL praise and idolize have made comments about the genocide of males. Dworkins, Greer, Steinem.
You can claim that those people are not REAL feminist but sadly they are the pinnacles of feminism. They are the core of the ideology.

Can you send me some sort of link to something that shows your group and it's campaign to bring awareness to male victims of rape and sexual abuse. I'm curious to see it.

[Bookwik]

Wow, I just had to do a bit of research after what you said... I have to admit I kind of agreed with take owner at first but... now I just feel disgusted.

[Bookwik]

Take owner, when you say that she should "let people believe what they want" without refuting any of her points, it almost implies that you give credence to her points, but would still like the initial false points to be believed regardless of the fact that they essentially negate your whole argument. A dishonest practice.

and @AllAboutTheX I NEED to thank you. For so long I believed I was, in some way, a feminist. if you didn't post that, I would have never looked this information up and would have never realized that I actually support equal-ism/egalitarianism, not that horrid movement of lies and filth. (I also looked up those authors you mentioned, honestly scary stuff)

[AllAboutTheX]

@Bookwik I am glad to see that there are those who will see things they disagree with and go research instead of blindly arguing or simply blocking and ignoring.
I wish more people (especially feminist) would take enough pride in what they believe to look past what they are told and look up actual information from places outside their compartmentalized beliefs.
Kudos to you for having the strength of character to break free from he herd and think for yourself, and thank you for the complement.

[AllAboutTheX]

@mytake owner I still have yet to see any link to your feminist based group which you say has over 4000 people in it that is fighting for male victims. I believe a thing like this would be easy to find or hear about but I have yet to find anything in my research. Could this be another false claim in an attempt to make feminism sound better than it actually is or is it actually something?
If you have some info I would honestly love to see it.

[moistycakes]

I'm not interested in trying to persuade you in anyway, I posted a few links in another persons comment. rainn.org/.../male-sexual-assault This was the organisation that inspired the group, however the walk for the male victims doesn't have a Facebook page. There's quite a few if you google male rape victim organisations in Australia. https://www.pandys.org/malesurvivors.html Pandoras Project is another group that inspired the awareness campaign.

[AllAboutTheX]

Well I appreciate the two links which support men's issue, neither are "feminist" organizations or groups. RAINN actually attacks feminism constantly. Most recently, when they wrote an open letter to the white house to deconstruct the feminist false idea of "rape culture", which started Popular feminist like Jessica Valenti on a twitter rampage in attempts to do damage control.
rare.us/story/this-is-why-feminism-is-dying/

I don't know a substantial amount about Pandora's Project but I have jet to find any link to feminism and the Pandora's Project. Which I am sure if feminism had a hand in it would be easy news to locate.

Anyways. I appreciate the links though. A google search for support of male victim support groups will for sure return a list of groups that support male victims, but nowhere do any of them link to feminist ties.

[moistycakes]

They were the organisations that inspired the group of feminists in my area, but that's the only link I know of.

[AleDeEurope]

That's what feminism should be, I don't understand why it changed into what it is today, which is basically complaining about anything, and finding the most insignificant things to complain about, like "manspreading".
The problem is that we can't change today's feminism cause of the insane amount of misinformation out there. What real feminists should do is call out all those feminazis and man-haters, cause those are the ones damagin the movement, but they stay quiet, so how are you supposed to do good when inside your movement you have a virus that keeps eating people's mind?
When they do nothing to expel those feminazis from the movement, people are gonna keep thinling that the whole feminist movement is just a group of desperate and lonely women that hate men and women that don't support them.
How can a man and a rational woman support a movement who's main voices are those haters? It's impossible.

Real feminists need to step up and call out those feminazis, sitting behind a screen all day isn't gonna help the problem.

[moistycakes]

One question what the hell is manspreading?

[AleDeEurope]

It's when men sit with their legs spread apart. They claim it's sexist because it's like saying "I'm a man and I claim more space than you". Clearly they don't have two balls and a dick between their legs, or they haven't noticed the women who put their purses on the seat next to them. Any man will put his legs together if someone was about to sit next to him, we only do it when there's no one next to us.
Feminists have made such a big fuss about that that the NYC public transportation system fines men that sit that way... see how ridiculous this is?
Young girls can't even go to school in many countries, but hey, manspreading is a much serious issue... -_-

41.media.tumblr.com/.../...olLLBq1r2jggso6_500.png

40.media.tumblr.com/.../...a74Clh1uxq5sdo1_400.jpg

[moistycakes]

Hahahaha dear god, this is why people hate feminism. "Plaguing NTC subways". The people who came up with this are the ones plaguing society.

[AleDeEurope]

That's why it's difficult for a man and a rational woman to support feminism, cause they're fighting against insignificant things, and are targeting men for no reason.
I started hating today's feminism when this manspreading thing came out.

[moistycakes]

I would have to agree with you. Do you agree with like "true feminism" or whatever I was saying? Would you identify as a feminist?

[Bookwik]

I think what you are referring to is first wave feminism. Its a shame today all you see is these rabid feminists.

[AleDeEurope]

I do agree with true feminism, the first wave. If today we had that same movement, I would consider myself a feminist, but since it's tje opposite, no, I'm not a feminist.
I consider myself an egalitarian, which is someone that truly believes in real equality.

@Bookwik true, it's a shame, but it's because the only ones that speak up are those rabid feminists.

[ComDom]

Feminist lies/myths: The gender wage gap, Rape culture, 30 percent of emergency room visits by women each year are the result of injuries from domestic violence, the phrase “rule of thumb” originated in a man’s right to beat his wife provided the stick was no wider than his thumb, women have been shortchanged in medical research, girls have been shortchanged in our gender-biased schools, etc.

Feminism is a belief system that focuses on the rights and interests of women. To say that it is only about equal rights is at best disingenuous and at worst a flat out lie.

Feminism advocates for women only and not men which would explain why it has "fem" before "ism". That would be all well and good if it wasn't using women's and gender studies to pollute the populace into believing complete falsehoods.

For instance: Feminism claims that men and women are equal. They are not. Their hormones and by extension brain chemistry causes very different outcomes and cognitive function.

Many Feminists claim that women have been mistreated throughout history which in large part is false at least if you say they were worse off than comparable men in said timeframes. There have been many females rulers throughout time.

For a more detailed explanation on the faults of Feminism I would suggest you watch Sargon of Akkad's "Why Do People Hate Feminism" series on YouTube.

I could go on and on but basically: Feminism is a cultic virus.

time.com/.../
blog.dol.gov/2012/06/07/myth-busting-the-pay-gap/

[Thor696]

Sorry, but women have been able to get "higher education" since the Colonial days. See wikipedia for the timeline on women's colleges.

Your assertion that women couldn't make financial decisions or own property before the "first wave" feminists is incorrect also - as Mississippi passed the first law in the nation... in 1839 (well before the first wave) to allow women to buy property. In fact, single women and widows have been able to make their own financial decisions for a few centuries - there was only the peculiar limitation on WIVES (their decisions were governed by the husband).

You are incorrect in saying that men can choose to go to war. Every male is subjected to registration with the Selective Service when they are 18. If they refuse, they can be prosecuted - and, it's something that's asked on virtually every job application. Do not confuse the current "all volunteer" force for being able to refuse to go to war.

And - recognize that the draft laws - ONLY apply to men. Women, who are now allowed in combat, have this "magical" exclusion from the draft. This is laughable and feminists are doing a damn thing about that double-standard.

Ability to work in traditionally female dominated jobs? LOL - men have always been able to become nurses - it was only the social stigma that prevented that and I'll not allow you to hand that off a "victory" of feminism alone.

You really need to research stuff like this before posting.

[Anonymous]

“Feminism is equality between the sexes”

That statement is false, and has been from the very beginning. What feminism actually IS, is “a movement for the advancement of women’s interests”. Period! And I will add to that the very important qualifier “at the expense of men’s interests and rights”.

This is the one example of many of feminist dishonesty. Another prominent one and blatant example is how feminism regularly attempts to take full credit for positive societal changes throughout history that it had little or nothing to do with, while at the same time denying its role in many negative changes that it IS IN FACT responsible for.

I won’t bother pointing out all the false claims in your myTake because @AllAboutTheX has already done a fine job of that below. I will add, however, that perhaps the biggest feminist lie of all is that it has helped men. That is a blatant lie. If you take the few trivial ways in which feminism may have played a small role in any positive changes for men over the year and weigh them against all the harm it has caused to society, and men in particular, the negative side of the scale will hit the floor with a loud thump.

The REALITY of feminism is that it has nothing to do with the “equality” you and other feminist claim it is supposed to be about. It never has and it NEVER WILL. You will never “reclaim feminism” to be something it never was.

So please, let’s dispense with the dishonesty for a change and stop trying to convince the world feminism is something it isn’t. If you are truly interested in improving things for everyone, both males and females, let’s talk about fairness and equality without the feminist label that has for years been standing in the way of what it claims to be seeking.

[Anonymous]

I'd like to agree with you but by most definitions of feminism I can find you are wrong. Most definitions read something like this "the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men". Feminism is not equality between the sexes feminism is the advocacy of women's rights for equality of the sexes. It is not the same thing. Hating men can be feminism. Stereotyping men can be feminism. You may not want to consider it to be but there's nothing in its definition that bans it from being true. My problem with feminism is that there are movements that go further. There are movements that focus on the well being of all humanity such as humanitarian. There are movement that focus on the equality of all people such as egalitarian. If you don't want the negative kick backs associated with feminism then there are plenty other philosophies to live by and associate with. I don't like feminism. Period. And as much as women try to dress it up feminism by its very definition is about women's rights. To me it's a sexist theory. So I still refuse to call myself a feminist. I don't believe in women's rights I believe in human rights I just happen to believe women should be included in everyone's definition of human. I don't think most feminist are against men. I don't think feminist hate me and believe they're superior. I just believe the ideal of feminism leaves the door wide open for behavior like that and I don't want to be associated. If you want equality believe in equality.

[moistycakes]

Equality between the sexes still can stand true. When feminism started women were in no way equal to men, so therefore equality was through providing women with more rights thus leading to equality between the sexes. I totally respect your opinion. I'm a feminist more for the women really suffering in other countries, not for banning men sitting with their legs spread. I'm all about humanitarianism. Good opinion anon :)

[chuppachup]

"Successfully changing the legal definition of rape to include men as victims, instead of just women." - Actually, they only slightly changed it. It's not like they changed it so that forced envelopment was classed as rape. This still ignores female perpetrators. So, technically this only acknowledged male-on-male rape more than anything.

Honestly, in my opinion, feminism does not give a fuck about men's issues. If they say they do then they'll say "Oh, but women's issues are more important", then if you finally get them to acknowledge that male issues are just as bad as female issues they'll say "Well, feminism isn't about men" or "It's the PATRIARCHY, and feminism is about smashing that" (Funny thing is though, the "patriarchy theory" is an unfalsifiable theory).
In some cases, feminists work *against* fixing male's issues (Like campaining to further widen the sentencing disparity) and actively try to silence Men's Rights Activists (who actually want to fix men's issues instead of chalking it all up to a "patriarchy") and slander them as misogynists.

Why does feminism have to be a negative thing? Because it is.

[Anonymous]

I hate feminism for a number of reasons. They claim to care for men but every feminist I argue with always tells me women are opressesed. But that's only in third world countries but that proves my point that feminists don't give a shit about men and focus on women. That makes them hypocrites. And women already have more rights and privileges than men in first world countries. Women can falsely accuse a man of rape and he'll be convicted, women are more likely to win custody over children, they are expected to be protected by the opposite sex, emotional support, better healthcare, yet they still whine about how they can't wear panties to school when there are actual women in India being beaten by their husbands and become child brides. Feminists don't bring the fact that men can get raped and abused and women in India being oppressed. What do they bring up? The fact that men are privileged and how they can never experience any problems and that the best way to prevent rape is teaching men not to rape. This falsely assumes that all men are rapists and won't be if they are taught otherwise. Feminists have double standards too, for example, when Lena Dunham confessed to molesting her sister feminists defended her and stood up for her. But if the genders were reversed feminists would go ape shit and want him killed. They also forget to see that men get sexualized all the time and not just women. Because apparently men don't need positive messages. They think all men are privileged therefore feminists never focus on them. If feminism really was about equality and focused on both genders equally then people wouldn't hate it. Oh and I almost forgot, they still believe in myths like the pay gap which has been debunked repeatedly. No matter how much they claim they care about men, their actions prove otherwise. So in in conclusion feminism is about female supremacy and demonization of men.

[genericname85]

what if i told you feminism means "equal rights for women" not "eauality"... when will people realize that feminism is outdated. we need an equal rights movement not a feminist movement now.

and to your claims of what it brought for men:
changing definition of rape to including men? yeah thanks... feminists were the ones who made the one excluding men in the first place.

they can choose whether or not to go to war? hows that "feminism" related?

men were allways "allowed" to do female dominated jobs. feminism didn´t change that.

allowed men to have unpaid leave in their jobs? everybody can leave their jobs unpaid... it´s not a new right.

[moistycakes]

Paid* my bad, it was a typo.

[genericname85]

OK but how is this a "feminist" achievement?

[moistycakes]

I don't really want to get into it right now. There's information available out there on the web if you are curious :)

[genericname85]

You See i agree with your positive message but its not feminism that did it and we don't need the term anymore since it has too many bad connotations nowadays.

[nakedalligator]

Feminism can die.

It is an old tool, it has done it's part and can now be discarded.

If another movement comes along to promote equal rights then fine, but feminism has been associated with too many things that I will not stand for.

The argument that not all feminist believe this or that is bunk. what other movements have so many issues that only "some" of the followers follow? I'm aware their are different types of feminists, but a girl claiming she is a feminist is always going to be a red flag to me. It's natural to think of ourselves as equal to one another without labeling or following some narrow minded movement.

And mainly. men and women are different not the same, not one lesser than the other but complementary to one another, I don't want a woman who wants to be a man but one who wants to be a woman.

[Punkbuster107]

I'm all for equality, but why do we need to call it feminism? The word feminism will cause just as many defensive reactions as the word masculism does. Why niot just plead for equal rights instead of labeling your movement with a name that implies your own sex's right to equality is prioritized?

Per Miriam Webster Dictionary:

"fem·i·nism
ˈfeməˌnizəm/Submit
noun
the advocacy of women's rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men."

By definition, feminism is a movement for women's equality to men. Men's rights for equality are implied, but only as an afterthought. It is a skewed reaction to previously skewed "All Are Created Equal" doctrine.

[moistycakes]

Okay so even if it is just a movement for that, there's nothing wrong with that. There are men's rights groups as well, so it's okay in my mind to have a group for specific genders and other groups for humans in general. There are women out there in different places around the world that still need help, and feminism can potentially help them if people stop focusing on shit like man spreading and air-conditioning being controlled by the patriarchy and other ridiculous things.

[Punkbuster107]

I don't have no argument against that.

The real issue is equal human rights in general, even if it just so happens that women are the ones who need it most in most parts of the world at this point in history.

[moistycakes]

I think you're spot on with that statement.

[JSmuve]

One of the problems is the name feminism. Look at it. It has a very female-oriented appearance to it. That's how it all started anyways, right? Women's rights. Not men's right. It's all about women having equal rights as men, not men having equal rights as women. If people are serious about this whole feminism being all about equality for both genders (i. e. lifting both up instead of lifting one up at the expense of the other) then there needs to be a rebranding to reflect this. It's no longer about women's rights. It's about human rights; both males and females, so it should reflect that. As of now, the word feminism doesn't reflect this because it has a very strong gynocentric meaning to it. It should be equalist. Changing the name would start in shifting how people perceive these values that you claim feminism is all about.

[jjmarvin]

I am an egalitarian and you can't be that without including feminism (the real definition)

I got a lot of hate on iamnuts's recent mytake for simply stating "that's not what feminism is"

Then a bunch of guys had to flood in like "no ur rong. Fenimism states man r poopy n girls shud b meanies"

I eventually stopped responding.

[moistycakes]

I think I'm on the same page as you. I kind of regret posting this.

[jjmarvin]

Unless you like trolling angertards, always post anon. On topics like religion, feminism and circumcision i always get tons of angry pm's lol.

[moistycakes]

I've learnt my lesson :P

[Sjeggy]

in my opinion
feminism won't work mainly because of the negative tone it has
egalitarianism=equality
feminism=womens rights
also many (many!) examples regarding sexism towards men due to feminism, and sure those aren't real feminists but it gives a negative feeling to the word

[moistycakes]

It really does doesn't it? :(

[Sjeggy]

yes! i have no problem with equality, but this isn't the right way! right now feminism is half sexistic and the word already makes people butthurt

[moistycakes]

It's just bloody spiralling down. I haven't seen too much of the sexist gross so called feminists in real life, mainly online.

[Sjeggy]

oh well as a dude living in sweden (feminazi hq)
i can tell you that whenever you say you're not a feminist you get lynched
i disproved a rape statistic and they said that i support rape
if you say anything negative to them you're sexist and if they say something to you you should "man up"

[moistycakes]

Oh fuckckcckkck that. I'd move to the middle of the Atlantic.

[Sjeggy]

haha i moved from bullies to a minefield xD
you have to be very careful with what you say

[dragonlance5]

Ummmm... have you ever heard of the selected service act? Basically in the United States when you register to vote you also have to register for the draft. This means that during war Congress can vote to start the draft (last one was for the Vietnam war) in which if you get selected you have to join the army with very few exceptions. Back when this was passed in 1917 men were the only ones who were allowed to vote hence no women were entered in the draft. However, when feminists pushed for women to have the right to vote they didn't push for them to also join the draft so even though you're technically supposed to join when you register to vote women don't have to. This speaks volumes about what the feminist movement is truly about. If you want equal right for both men and women your'e an equalist, please stop trying to make this party appealing it was hypocritical from the very beginning.

[throwit]

Just a side note, many women AND men in the military don't want women in certain areas of war (I have no idea the military jargon) because if they were to be captured by the enemy the torture they could do to a woman is far worse than what they would do to a man.
(Plus, why would women push for a forced draft? No one wants the draft and men and women are both fighting against it)

[Mártainn]

@throwit

Torture is not the reason.
They don't want women in frontline service because of psychological reasons. Men are somehow wired to protect women, and are therefore more likely to ignore orders to save female comrades. Also, injured women are much more moral draining than injured men. Furthermore women are often physically not strong enough to carry a (male) wounded into safety. And apparently most women lack that particular aggressive killer instinct.

[heavensgift2girls]

feminism - the advocacy of WOMEN'S rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality to men.

Feminism is not the advocacy of HUMAN rights on the grounds of political, social, and economic equality. Therefore by its own definition feminism is sexist for only being about women's issues.

egalitarian - of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities.

You see how egalitarians doesn't specify which gender they want to advocate for? That small difference in definition, speaks volumes for the direction of the movement. It is time to move past feminism and embrace a movement that is for actual equality, rather than following the path of feminism that just keeps teaching people that women are victims and needs more and more protection.

[evenlift]

That list of the alleged 'benefits' of 'first-wave feminism' shows a startling lack of education on the subject. For example, it is a fact that women were allowed to own property. If a woman made the choice (note: choice) to get married, it was then that she lost her property rights, in return for which she received the right to be cared for by her husband. (By the way, when the law was changed in the late nineteenth century, so that married women could keep their property rights, men were still lumbered with legal responsibilities to care for their wives. So much for equality!)

This attempt at 'inclusion' is just a sad spectacle. You're not going to win over anti-feminists. And you're making enemies out of your fellow feminists.

[Transigence]

Bull fucking shit. All of it.
Women were always allowed to vote in the same capacity that men couldn't. That is, you can't. Unless you own property. Which is something women were allowed to do. They were also allowed to work.

All of your feminist bullshit is academically fraudulent. Feminism has NEVER been about equality, going all the way back to the Declaration of Sentiments from 1857. It has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS been a threat narrative against men used to marginalize men and separate us from our families and invite government intrusion.

We aren't new to feminism. We've been studying it both from within and from the outside for over a century. It's not about equality, and it never has been.

Patriarchy theory and it's bastard children are ALL COMPLETELY ACADEMICALLY FRAUDULENT!

[Transigence]

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a23145-the-reasons-behind-why-i-will-never-stand-beside-feminists-their
This girl knows what's up.