An open letter addressed to all those who think Feminism is overrated

[astatine]

I come from a land where Sati (where the widow was burnt alive wtih her dead husband during his cremation) has mythological significance; where female infanticide has been practised since the dawn of civilisation; where marriage without dowry is rarer than the blue moon; where emperors have always had many wives and mistresses; where women have always been treated as liabilities...worse, commodities. Of course, things have changed, but not so much.

Women are blamed for being raped. Girls wearing skirts are taunted and eve-teased by 'respectable' men of society. What the fail to understand is that a woman will be raped, whether she is drop dead gorgeous, or "ugly" by some twisted standards set by society, fully clothed, or comepletely bare. Marital rape is not even considered rape.

There was a discussion about banning mannequins outside lingerie shops in the Parliament! Attacks are conveniently blamed on Valentines' Day, co-ed schools, and the parents, for sending their daughters out. Documentaries are hastily banned (e.g. India's Daughters - BBC). On being questioned by a journalist regarding increasing rape cases, the Chief Minister of a state unabashedly said, "boys will be boys".

Ever heard of men being acid-attacked or domestically assaulted?

People don't wish to have a girl-child, probably because raising one requires more finance, or probably because they will be left with no one to carry on the 'family name' (the latter being the reason behind my country being the second most populated in the world)

Darker women are looked down upon. Is it because our colonial past has left us with a complex regarding the desirability of 'white' skin od our erstwhile British rulers? Is it that fair betokens a higher social standing than a dark skin, which suggests a genealogy of sunburnt outdoor labourers as opposed to the lineage of sheltered aristocracy? Who knows?! What I do know is that women are ruthlessly rejected by men because the idea of having darker off-springs doesn't fancy them. And to gain profits off this cultivated insecurity, markets are always flooded with fairness creams for women that falsely promise to make one 10 shades lighter.

Women are almost treated as second class citizens. Politicians address people at their rallies as 'brothers' (no mention of sisters). Daughters are told by their parents that their home is really theirs, and their husbands' homes will be their true homes. Occasionally, however indirectly, women at their work-place are reminded that their real place is in the kitchen.

With so much going on, do you really expect us to sit there like insolent charlatans and pray we aren't next? Keep up the charade as if nothing is wrong? There is acute illiteracy; women don't realise what their rights are, ergo, don't come to know that they are being exploited. How does one go about educating and preserving one's rights without being crudely called a Nazi?

I am not even talking about even pay. It figures nowhere in my top priorities. I just want to be able to walk down the street after 11p.m., alone. Ijust simply want every girl to get married to a man who couldn't care less about her skin colour, or how much she weighs, or how much dowry her parents can afford, or how sexually active she has been. I just want every household to educate their daughter, and provide her with equal opportunites.

I sincerely hope that one day we will get rid of stupid, sexist stereotypes like "weak like a girl", "boys don't cry", "coward like a *female reproductive part*"

....and if all of that asks us to be a feminist, why shouldn't we be?

P.S.: I don't despise my country, but it is the ugly truth frantically hidden from the world by holier than thou hypocrites that believe everything is peachy, like it has always been, and this facade makes me cringe. See the number of dislikes and the hate comments on this video https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=KtPv7IEhWRA to see what I mean.

[Anonymous]

The reason people hate on feminism is because western feminism used your plight as a scapegoat to hate on men and commit vile and horrible acts under the guise of "equality"

This is something feminist like yourself should be outraged by, it marginalizes your actual issues and groups them with nonsense like "Some guy on the street said hi to me, I was harassed". Trying to fight actual issues in your country when horrible people calling themselves feminist in the west are committing disgusting acts, does nothing to help your cause.

I am against feminism. I am also a woman. I do not agree with child marriage, rape (of either sex), female infanticide, or acid attacks, etc. But I would NOT fight against them under the name of feminism as it creates weakness now. It isn't taken seriously now, because of western feminism.
I fight those things as a human, who believes in equality (OF BOTH SEXES) and happens to be a female. I fight for male issues as well as females.

[YourFutureEx]

Shame on the woman who downvoted this.

[Opinion Owner]

There is always at least one.

[genuinlysensitive]

Amen sister!

[DanteSparda]

Beautifully described.
Ignore those downvotes, retards gonna be retards.

[astatine]

i am so frustrated right now, that i couldn't care less under which category should i put myself in. i just want equality and women to speak up for their rights on their own, just like men in my country

[Azara]

People are against feminism bc they don't - really- want change. Just enough to make then look civilized but not so much that women actually have power. as long as women are viewed as inferior and to be dominated by men- which a majority of users who claim they want equality state they want it legally but not socially bc it's not " natural" - then any talk of supporting equality is complete bullshit.

What vile and hostile acts have feminists recently committed against men? I hear this all the time I never see it. If I go out at night there is a substantial possibility I will be raped and I have to consider twenty five diff modes of safety before leave the apartment. How does equal rights / ignoring women's rights solve that problem?

Equality in front if the law equal rights is obviously essential bit as everyone loves to point out element and men are not the sane. They have different needs and women have needs based on being women

[Azara]

And being the ones in charge of life. This requires women's rights to be recognized as well as human rights. This in no way goes against men or sets out to destroy them any more than a students students right being recognized girs out to destroy a non student.

[Azara]

Or a workers rights setting out to destroy the rights of a person who is not a worker

Men have human rights and they have rights if whatever collective they belong to. They do not have women's rights bc they are not women and do not need womens rights. This is not women trying to control men this is women taking responsibility for the collective of humans responsible for human life.

Human rights belong to all humans. Then there are many different groups of humans with special needs. Recognizing rights if a collective without seeing it as an attack on other humans I suppose requires the kind of sound mind that is often lacking around here.

Everyone is so anxious to attack everything or qualify everything as representing or not representing " truth". Looking seriously at actual problems would be a much better use if time. And if a person is to say about any society that they'd are no problems they are clearly not interested in taking themselves seriously.

What violence have men

[Azara]

Recently endured at the hands of " feminists"?

[Azara]

If men are experiencing violence it is a real problem it means they are vulnerable and need protection and saying feminists suck isn't going to help them receive safety... So what actual real threat to their well being is going in ATM. Bc it should be stopped.

[Opinion Owner]

@asker I agree that in your area there needs to be more ability to speak up. As I said, in the west
women have more than equal ability. It's the false stats and the fabricated "issues" of the women here
in the west that cause there to be so much conflict. All these negitivly affect what you are trying to
accomplish in your area of the world.

[Opinion Owner]

@Azara People are not against feminism because they don't want change. It's because they see it for
what it really is. A 5 second google search will EASILY show feminism for what it is actually about.
Your idea that we are seen as inferior or are dominated by men, is a very skewed view fluffed with
bias and misinformation. If you look at the massive amount of stuff we as girls get that men don't and
research the skewed statistics and see how much of the "issues" are actually misrepresented, you would
see that we are actually not inferior (at least not in the west)
The idea that we don't want social equality is wrong. There is a certain number of differences biologically
which can never be equal, these are things neither sex can change about the other sex, no matter how much
they may want it to change, but social equality would actually mean men have equal rights to their children,
have fair rape investigation, equal treatment in schools & courts...

[Opinion Owner]

Equal punishment for the same crimes as women.
The ability to say, act, and think like men without being chastized for not being female. These are all things
which currently do NOT happen and therefore if feminism wants TRUE EQUALITY... these things need to ALSO be
faught for and given.

You seriously are going to say that you have never seen Vile and Hostile acts commented against men by feminism?
Do I seriously need to provide a google list for you?

[Opinion Owner]

The ability to protect ones self from evil people for any reason is a basic human concept, why does rape require
a different set of rules altogether? MEN are NOT rapist, mentally fucked up people are. Protecting yourself from
those types of people are the reason you lock your doors at night, or have an alarm system in your house. Same goes
for why some people carry mace, stun guns, guns and other protective equipment when they can.

Next, Women are NOT in charge of life nor are we RESPONSIBLE for it! We are the ones who have an unfair ability to make all the decisions for a life
created by both a male and female which just so happens to be incubated in us. If you want to drill down, the actual "life"
is more likely the sperm which is active while the egg lays dormant. Men give the spark of life to the egg, so why are
they not given more rights to that life they create?

[Opinion Owner]

Men have human rights, but they also have MENS rights! Just like women have human rights and womens rights. Sadly it is all to
common for feminist to "forget" or ignore this concept.
You attempt to shame those with the idea that people are unsound minded if they don't agree with the idea that "women's rights"
are important for a collective is obvious. It's a contradiction, because when men try and speak for their collective, feminsim
is the group that take every means possible to stop them. These are NOT very sound minds, these are the minds of a hate group.

[Opinion Owner]

The people who disagree with feminism ARE the ones who actually take a serious look at the issues. This is why it is so easy
for us to show the lies and skewed stats that feminist stand behind so adamantly. You again try and make an assumption (or are
trying to shame those who disagree) by saying that people like myself who say we girls are not as bad off as you make us out to be
don't take ourselves seriously... that is such crap. Cutting through the feminist created bullshit and seeing ACTUAL issues, is
serious because it is impossible to see actual issues when feminism does what it can to cloud the actual issues with nonsense.
Most of us who fight against feminism, actually fight for the real issues, but for BOTH sexes and ALL races, and identities.
Saying feminist suck doesn't help men, but feminist are the ones who do what they can to stop anything which attempts to help men,
so STOPPING feminism does actually help them. The REAL threat (to everyone)... is feminism and...

[Opinion Owner]

... you are right it definitely should be stopped.

[tenofthepeaks]

good take.

I reckon most who post about feminism are trolls. I can understand a person who is older not getting it, but pople who grew up in gender equality, and always ask "feminism is about women dominating!" and other shit are either uneducated, sheltered or too naive.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@astatine You follow that path with all the conviction you can muster. Do so with regards to not only the men and women of your country, but your country itself.

Change takes time. It has to, because rapid change causes social and cultural distress. Radical change has the potential to destroy your country.

Take it one step at a time. Today, we teach men that women are allowed to walk the streets in jeans. Tomorrow, we can teach more women how to enroll in college. And maybe in a few years, your country will see men and women as equals and educate it's population about the way to treat every human being.
Just always remember, it takes time, and it has to come slowly. Cherish every small achievement, because that one is leading you to a milestone.

Making the world better is hard. You must study philosophy, and question morals. Always consider the well-being of others when you do.

My suggestion is continue with post-colonial feminism. Feminism started in the U. S. at a much less tumultuous time than it is starting in India.

People think that India will spoil because of feminism in the U. S. But India and the U. S. are not the same, and the Feminism that started in the U. S. is not the same as what's taking place in India.

If you can only find role-models like the woman in that video, become a better role-model. Take her step-up as a challenge to be better than that. Maybe you will be the next role-model, or maybe you will find her in your journey.

You know both men and women must change. Don't make the mistake of our early feminism. Include all sexes in the discussion; encourage them to join, peacefully.

You will make enemies. You will receive hatred and see the worst the world has to offer. That's how you know you're walking the right path. The worst in the world will hate you because you are not like them. I will take an awful person as my enemy any day, because it puts my side in perspective.

Stay strong, stay moral, move forward. You will be beautiful for it.

[astatine]

that is really, really insightful. thank you.
we will not make the same mistake as the US. it is logical to take both genders together to fight for equality.
it is really admirable that you actually saw the video

[Krushhbrownies]

Having lived in both developing world and developed western world, all I can say is citizen of these both worlds have a different idea of what feminism is from both activists and opposing party of it..

A lot of men and women in the West have no idea what's it like for women in these part of the world. Sure they hear the stories but they haven't seen it first hand. They haven't experienced it. In many parts of the world women... No not just women, young girls also are clearly living in an unfair society and that's an everyday occurrence.. To me it is a must to fight end this violence and inequality, I simply support the equality of men and women because women are also intelligent beings that is capable.. I want equality because I want the world to progress, have their input in human advancement.. Unnecessary Inequality only hinders this.

In the West, it seems that some women are pushing for something that is drastic and kinda goes beyond the concept of feminism and pushes for something called radical feminism or as many call as 'feminazi'...

In these two different world there is a major differences in feminism.. Example is 'Third-world feminism' or 'post-colonial feminism' and the other one is Western feminism. Major differences in feminism in the world is a product of each of their own cultural surroundings... Not all women in each different regions and countries experience the same level of inequality.. For example my home country doesn't have the same inequality than say other countries in Asia or Africa where women have it worse etc BUT however there is still gender inequality in the world, just not on the same level on each countries.

Generally women in West have it very different than women in less developed world and yet some women fight for something so drastic and that it causes tension. We just need to understand the differences and accept the differences without inequality and idea of superiority over the other sex or gender.

Feminism is not bad

[astatine]

i can't talk about the west, since i have never lived there, and have no personal experience concerning feminism there, but we definitely need it here. people don't even know what "feminism" the word means, here in India.
but the fight is not easy. not only are men prejudiced and dominating, the women also don't realise that the way they are treated is wrong. they have grown up seeing their mothers like that. this is a viscous circle

[miserybusiness]

we should be allowed to plaster this response on the front page

[hypno-trip]

good post my friend. I read that giving women equal opportunities is what allows some places to be developed in the first place. There are a lot involved in that but equal opportunity sounds like a good thing anyway.

[been_waiting]

I respect this post. A lot. Some faith restored.

[ComDom]

I used to think what you do until I started researching what it has become. Even if it started out as something good it's lack of a clear definition and organization allowed it to mutate into what it has become. Feminism is bad regardless to what it was. Feminism was never necessary, justice is/was.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@ComDom You researched a biased viewpoint served to you by authority figures in your sub-culture. I doubt that your research of feminism has gone much beyond that.

The word Feminism has more definition than Egalitarianism. Further, there are many versions of feminism that are clearly defined.
I'm not brainwashed into thinking everything in feminism is good or bad. But you certainly seem to be brainwashed into thinking it's all bad.

Consider leaving the safety of your cultural circle and researching the positive causes as well. You will sound more intelligent, cultured and worldly for it.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy your absolute ignorance is astounding. How can you function daily making such blatantly false assumptions? First off no. I was raised to think Feminism was good. It isn't. It's bad. It's a warped ideology that is far from well defined. Egalitarianism has essentially one definition: all people deserve the same opportunity in life. That's essentially its DICTIONARY definition.

So yes, if you believe ANYTHING you just said to me you are ignorant, deluded, or brainwashed. Those are your choices as far as I can tell. So check out my post and this discussion will become much more clear: "www.girlsaskguys.com/.../...tic-antiquated-maybe." Also, everyone is bias. But that DOES NOT mean their information is NECESSARILY inaccurate.

Lastly, no offense but based on what you've said so far I have ZERO desire to be seen as intelligent, cultured/worldly (basically synonyms) in your eyes because you do not appear to have any idea what you're talking about.

[Klara-Hitler]

Feminism is dying. If you want it in your country I do not care, have it. I don't want it in my country and the majority of women here do not feel the need for it.

I was in Iran and I know in Muslim countries (not in India at least between higher classes in there) you almost automatically become a feminist with all the mainly moral pressure that is on women. that was the feeling that I had myself in there. and my friends were under pressure and I sympathized with them.

but again I could argue that every single problem that exist for women exist for men as well in the same way or in another way in those countries and from a social perspective much worse than women for certain groups of men. and argue why you better not become a feminist even in a country like Iran.

Your countries has issues concerning major groups of people regardless of sex in the very basics of life. your issues is not just "women". women are only a part of the society. Children regardless of sex have the fundamental issues in there, then the different social classes again regardless of sex. the education system and again its connection with social classes. cultural and religious matters that some are very complicated to deal with in certain social classes and before reaching a certain financial point. and the list goes on.

The issues in eastern countries especially middle eastern countries are detailed. you cannot discuss them easily or superficially.

and feminism does nothing for your basic issues as it never did anything for our basic social issues and never acted as something to include every single individual regardless of sex with the issues being approached rationally and solving them being the concern rather than the demands of a sex and gender. but at times it even worsened them by pressuring the society and putting us in dangerous situations.

Feminism is a western product. and it was made mainly for the political concerns of a group. and as a social movement...

[Klara-Hitler]

.. it works as a reforming movement that makes certain demands whether logical or illogical at that certain point of time for the certain society and to earn them it does any revolutionary move that always fail or make a situation worse. don’t waste your time with it.

If you are concerned with the issues in your country begin a new movement with a completely rational approach and view on both sexes and their qualities and your society and do it shoulder to shoulder with your men to improve your "society" not only the females issues.

When the society is improved you will be good too.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I read your post and I honestly did not understand a single point you were making.

There was a lot of general terms being thrown around, and so many modifiers I couldn't really figure out where you were going.

Like this:
" it works as a reforming movement that makes certain demands whether logical or illogical at that certain point of time for the certain society and to earn them it does any revolutionary move that always fail or make a situation worse."

I could read that 5 times over and still not understand what your message here is. That revolution is bad?

Also, you do understand how incredibly difficult it is to start a social movement? It's not something you just get up and do one day.

[CootiesInfection]

other countries need suffragettes, civil rights activists. no one needs feminists.

[ComDom]

"Also, you do understand how incredibly difficult it is to start a social movement? It's not something you just get up and do one day."

So because something is difficult you stick to what you know? Like Feminism... nah. I think I'll take a slice of Justice please and thank you.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "I read your post and I honestly did not understand a single point you were making.
"

Uh maybe because you think you're logical but you aren't... Have you even considered that?

[astatine]

@Opinion Owner @ComDom i know there are many issues in my country, but we have to start somewhere. i believe advocating for women's rights should be our sole priority right now, because it is not restricted to a group of people, no. it affects millions of women across all castes, creeds, economic or social background.

[ComDom]

@astatine the ironic part is that you might think I'm your enemy but I'm not. I agree with you, to an extent. I think women are treated HORRIBLY in the east and it makes me sick. I want to adopt daughters because I think the east and even the west sometimes treat them as less than what they deserve. The most ironic part is that I have a 'sort-of' on-off girlfriend in school in Bangladesh. I'm aware it sucks in that general area.

But I say again I don't think Feminism is the answer. I wanted it to be but it's gotten... bad over here. I think people need to wake up and learn how to make a difference. One step at a time I guess. I apologize for the appearance of disrespect. That was not my intent. Women have made a huge difference in the world directly and indirectly. There's no denying that in my book.

[ComDom]

A lot of people in general can't walk out alone after dark including men. It all depends on the area you're from. But no, Feminism has become a mutated monster nowadays. It attempts to warp reality to fit within its confines.

I think people should bind together to focus on justice rather than splitting up into smaller groups. Contrary to what Feminism indoctrinates into people... you don't need it, you need truth.

"Ever heard of men being acid-attacked or domestically assaulted?"

Yes this happens in the states more than you'd think.

"Darker women are looked down upon."

This is confirmation bias, from my perspective, but two of my closest friends are with darker skin women. One of which is married to her.

"Girls wearing skirts are taunted and eve-teased by 'respectable' men of society."

Maybe it isn't the girls but the behavior which lacks modesty?

"where women have always been treated as liabilities... worse, commodities."

No. Feminist indoctrination. Women are taken care of because they have irreplaceable value. The human race can't continue without women possibly even more so than men. It's better to have many women and few men than many men and few women, biologically. Somewhere along the line people got confused.

"Marital rape is not even considered rape."

"Rape" as people see it today isn't an old concept. It just didn't exist.

So to sum up: we as humans need to revaluate and correct where we stand but Feminism is not the answer. It's not only a relic but is a blight upon the world. It's time that men be men and not stand by the wayside.

[astatine]

i haven't heard of men being acid-attacked or domestically assaulted
darker women ARE looked down upon. it is different in the states. women here have almost no preference as long as a guy is marrying them.
no, no it isn't. many women in remote areas are hit with sticks and stones because they had the AUDACITY to wear jeans in public.
the sole aim for parents is to get their daughters married, so that they get one DUTY over with. same is not with sons.
if you don't know what the gravity of the situation is, in places other than the States, at least don't belittle our problems

[ComDom]

"i haven't heard of men being acid-attacked or domestically assaulted"

Then maybe you should do your research?

"darker women ARE looked down upon. it is different in the states. women here have almost no preference as long as a guy is marrying them."

That's my whole point though. It varies on where you live.

"no, no it isn't. many women in remote areas are hit with sticks and stones because they had the AUDACITY to wear jeans in public."

That doesn't happen very often in the west and that's my entire point.

"the sole aim for parents is to get their daughters married, so that they get one DUTY over with. same is not with sons."

Where you're from but not in the west. None of that justifies the need for Feminism though. A different movement could fulfill the same requirement.

[ComDom]

@astatine ""if you don't know what the gravity of the situation is, in places other than the States, at least don't belittle our problems"

I'm aware of the problems over there. At least the gist. I had an entire class devoted to that sort of thing. That's why I said this: "I think people should bind together to focus on justice rather than splitting up into smaller groups. Contrary to what Feminism indoctrinates into people... you don't need it, you need truth."

I would never advocate change behind Feminism because of the monster it has become. I believe in equality for all people not corruption.

[astatine]

i am not talking about the west. i am addressing issues faced by women here. you had a class, sure.. but you can never know the real situation if you are not living there

[ComDom]

@been_waiting
@astatine

Okay let's make a few things abundantly clear: First off, I have seen, "It's a Girl" that was ONE of the documentaries I've seen because of that class. Secondly, not standing up for Feminism DOES NOT mean I/we don't stand up for women.

I do believe what is happening over there is bad BUT Feminism is NOT good. Thirdly, I might not have been over there first hand but I'm pretty sure my professor had been and SHE told us about it. The point of the class was how to SOLVE those world issues. BUT it was NOT a Feminist class. Do you see where I'm going yet?

I can't respond to @been_waiting because she blocked me. Emotional instability must be a difficult thing to deal with. I am not defending what they are doing there. What is happening there is bad. I am defending people who attack FEMINISM specifically because Feminism is bad.

The big distinction is this: Feminist views DOES NOT EQUAL the person. Feminism is a behavior/mindset, a poor one and NOTHING MORE.

[ComDom]

@astatine I understand YOU aren't talking about the west but it isn't ALL about you. What about us? I'm not saying your issues aren't more pressing but take the WHOLE picture into account. Don't you think it's going to be hard to get support from men if you treat them badly? So I say again it isn't all about you.

[ComDom]

I agree with another poster. That video blows. I should have watched it earlier. Her choice to sleep around before she's married or sleep with someone while she's married. Yeah that's pretty messed up. Choice to kill someone? Choice to steal? Choice to lie? Sometimes choice can have BAD results. Feminism has proven that and it's gone WAY too far. It's corrupting people's minds.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@ComDom I'm going to take this opportunity to address you directly and, hopefully, maturely. At least more mature than replying to you repeatedly in a poor attempt to refute your viewpoint.

You've shown no opinion that is unbiased. Every source of knowledge on feminism you've collected has come directly from an authority figure in your own circle to reinforce both your belief and theirs. There is no objectivity in your claims. No basis in reality.
I can tell I'm not the indoctrinated one. You are.

I can't call you a misogynist, because you have not shown a strong hatred towards woman. Just a strong hatred towards feminists. They're not the same thing.

However you have shown clear an apparent ignorance. A lot of uneducated thought and poor reasoning.
You used a platform on the need of post-colonization feminism and change in a completely separate developing country to speak about how awful and unnecessary feminism here is. Do you know how unsympathetic you sound?

[SomeOtherGuy]

Further, you show that you probably haven't even looked into a single branch of feminism, or what feminism has done for males.
You actively dissuade feminists from including male issues in their platform, as you have done with @ChaosKilledTheDinos And yet you call them misandrists?

You should be applauding feminists who are interested in male issues and male equality. It exists. It's real. You shut your eyes to it because your circle, your pessimism and your misanthropy have made you seek confirmation biases.

You are a problem in the discussion of equality. You are an object in the road to that path. You are entitled and selfish and egotistical. You are behaving like a god damn child with a poor sense of empathy, let alone morals and altruism.

I can tell you right now you sure as hell aren't acting like someone who upholds the ideals of being a great man. Though I doubt that was ever your intentions here.

[SomeOtherGuy]

You exhibit the beliefs of a radical MRA, which are as cancerous as radical feminists. You do not belong in this discussion. You are destroying progress and peace between the sexes at best. Like I said before, you are acting as an obstacle to progress, and never has that been more evident than how you address people with perfectly good intentions that align with the progress you claim to want.

It sickens me to see someone behave in the manner you have. No, not sickens. It makes me morally outraged. I am angered by your behavior throughout all this.

I acknowledge I can't stop you from being whatever lost or confused or hurt person you think you are. But I can damn well stand up from every person here who shares my ideals of compassion and progress.

What further enrages me is that despite being an enemy against separatist and radical feminism, you still feel the need to attack me and every person here who shares that view.

I've said all I wanted. I have nothing more to say to you.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy LOL no. This is one empty rant without basis. Back up ANYTHING you've said. I'd much rather focus on Men's Rights than be a Feminist. BUT I'm not an MRA. ALL of my sources are DIRECTLY from Feministic theories. You ignorant buffoon.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I'd imagine the truth, reason, and logic would aggravate someone who lacks all of the above. PLEASE get mad. Hopefully it'll cause you to open your eyes. You are 100% indoctrinated. I've researched BOTH sides before I came to this conclusion. Speak from knowledge not ignorance this discussion would actually have some substance.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I'm not hurt at all. I like women, a lot. I DON'T like Feminism. It is rotten. Stop beating around the bush and face the truth. YOU are in the way of progress. ONLY you. I hope you'll respond because I plan on tearing through every ounce of ignorance you throw out. And I'll enjoy every second of it.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I will give you maturity, AT BEST. But you aren't logical, not even close. You also aren't objective. You just think you are. If you believe ANYTHING that contradicts ANYTHING I've said you are illogical, irrational, deluded or some variation of those notions. Simple as that. You're statements are comical. Your and Feminists' deceit/ignorance is what agitates me, nothing more.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I also NEVER said I support MRA's. I said I support justice for everyone. You should really pay more attention rather than believing your bs is true.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I NEVER said I was unbias. I am.

"Every source of knowledge on feminism you've collected has come directly from an authority figure in your own circle to reinforce both your belief and theirs. There is no objectivity in your claims. No basis in reality."

LOL give me ONE example? Those are sourced materials. Valid citations.

"However you have shown clear an apparent ignorance. A lot of uneducated thought and poor reasoning."

Based on what? LOL what are you even talking about? You're 28. Explain yourself rather than using empty words. Just because you have access to a dictionary DOES NOT mean you can form valid reasoning.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "Further, you show that you probably haven't even looked into a single branch of feminism, or what feminism has done for males."

YES I have. Extensively. It is very detrimental now. It's initial goals were fulfilled that's why it extended into newer "waves" eventually it mutated into radicals and separatists, and by extensions modern women's studies programs.

"You actively dissuade feminists from including male issues in their platform, as you have done with @ChaosKilledTheDinos And yet you call them misandrists?"

I'm not dissuading anyone within Feminism about male issues. Why don't you quote me? I'm saying Feminism is bad. I'm saying noone should be a Feminist.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "You used a platform on the need of post-colonization feminism and change in a completely separate developing country to speak about how awful and unnecessary feminism here is. Do you know how unsympathetic you sound?"

I'm saying Feminism is unnecessary. Old-school Feminism could be useful there but it's time we put it to rest and try something new. We have better ideas nowadays. Try to understand before you make massively faulty assumptions.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "You are a problem in the discussion of equality. You are an object in the road to that path. You are entitled and selfish and egotistical. You are behaving like a god damn child with a poor sense of empathy, let alone morals and altruism.
I can tell you right now you sure as hell aren't acting like someone who upholds the ideals of being a great man. Though I doubt that was ever your intentions here."

LOL based on what? More of your empty nonsense. Explain? I am a roadblock for FEMINISM. Not equality. I saw Feminism for what it is. Not for what I was raised to believe.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I'll give you one more thing: you appear to have intellectual honesty. BUT if you believe what they tell you there is something up. I used to think what you did, honestly. The only thing that hurts me is that it's going too far. I used to keep my mouth shut about it but no more. So I say again:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a9280-is-feminism-dangerous-dogmatic-antiquated-maybe

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "Just a strong hatred towards feminists."

I actually should have addressed this earlier. But this is another example of a time you were wrong but I don't hate Feminists. At best I hate FEMINISM. It's the behavior that is the problem not the person. If you actually paid attention we could avoid unpleasantness like that in the future.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I'm going to do you a favor and ignore you quoting everything I said with your take on it.
That's never worked for you in the past. It's never worked for me in the past. So lets skip it.

What I dislike about you right now is that you exhibit pessimism and hostility towards others. You seem much more inclined to attack a view and the people holding it than to share and express your own viewpoints.

You offer people only the dissolvement of their beliefs in return for what you call "Justice" without ever defining what "Justice" is or acknowledging that a person's view may be in line with Justice.

You seek enemies, not allies. You are exclusive, not inclusive. The very things about feminism I dislike and opt to change. Then you somehow proclaim to be better than that?

If you cannot see how your language and approach is alienating you, and hurting your cause, at this point I cannot help you.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Have you ever thought about sitting down and comparing notes with people instead? Finding similarities and common grounds on which to communicate first?
That attacking the cause and beliefs of others also targets the people themselves?

I'm not here to defend my viewpoints against you. My viewpoints are just and well-thought out and guided. They have roots in philosophy, have been explored through critical thinking, and I have concluded they are moral. I share them freely.

You can take away my label as a feminist if you want. I could care less about the title. But my philosophy and viewpoints are non-negotiable. I choose when I alter them, and I do so through introspection, confirmation and testing. Not on the whim of others.

I explored feminism, and I included it's philosophies into my beliefs. I freely associate as a feminist for that matter. That doesn't mean I believe or have to believe in every platform or doctrine in feminism. That would be a contradiction.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy honestly I have. I did consider Feminism. I wanted to believe in Feminism/equality. But certain things don't/didn't make sense to me. For instance: gender equality makes no sense. The genders are different and that's a bio-chemical/anatomical/psychological/evolutionary/etc fact. Some/many forces within Feminism believe that isn't true and preach it. It's infecting the cultural norms.

Opposing the patriarchy for its own sake makes no sense to me either. Every society ever has been a Patriarchy. We wouldn't even be here if it wasn't because of them so how are they ENTIRELY bad? I talked with hardcore Feminists and I hoped I could be wrong but I'm not. The core of Feminism is about elevating women along with whatever else it's label can possibly muster which often times can be quite vile while still maintaining the "Feminist" label. It's all an opinion. They hide behind strawman BECAUSE of no scotsman. It's the perfect cover.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy it makes me mad because some of these people hide behind the basic label of Feminism and spew their vile deep held beliefs without impunity. If someone calls them out they are somehow "anti-women" for being against Feminism. That's bs. It makes Feminism unfalsifiable and beyond criticism. Something about the bothers me and scares me at the same time.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy that* I talked with someone who claimed to just be a Feminist preaching equality of the sexes, found out I disagreed with Feminism, and revealed to me that the world would be better if all men were dead or had hormone replacements to be more feminine.

No-one called them out and this was a public Feminist forum. Keep in mind my entire point was that Feminism was "unnecessary" NOT really anything more than that. I said it could be replaced by something like Egalitarianism. Full disclosure: I wanted to explain my viewpoints and see how Feminists would disagree and I was left... wanting. I just couldn't find a reason Feminism made sense anymore.

Is this JUST confirmation bias? Yes. But it's still... a little worrisome because most of my exposure and familiarity with Feminism has essentially lined up. I was raised in a culture and around people who approved of it. But something seemed off. I might not be nice but I am intellectually honest.

[astatine]

i am not against men for god's sake! i just want some acknowledgement that a serious problem exists, and i want to tackle it, personally, as a feminist. and make no mistake, not as a feminazi.
it is much needed here, and i am tired of justifying why.

[ComDom]

@astatine I agree with you aside from the "Feminist" aspect. It has become something very divisive and unfalsifiable. So we can agree to disagree on it. I apologize for the disrespect again. I was very annoyed. I hope one day another movement can rise up and address the issues countries like yours face!

[SomeOtherGuy]

You've given me an anecdote. You are, at best, trying to build a rapport with me and appeal to my empathy. But that does not make you moral, or right, or just.

When someone needed to stand up and speak out against this feminist, did you stand up? I have spoken out in more dangerous situations. Can you truly look down your nose at people who did the same? Was YOUR silence somehow less agreement to what was stated than THEIR silence?

The worst I could suffer there is exclusion from people who share a view I find morally irreprehensible.

And feminism is not held within the frame of that view. I would rather change feminism from the inside than strike against it from the outside.
It should be obvious by now; feminism is a living, breathing movement that has fluidity. It is not static and unchanging.

[SomeOtherGuy]

In fighting feminism and feminists despite their multitude of convictions and beliefs that align with yours, you have made yourself an enemy to your own view. For what, to fight labels?

Attacking me makes you look weak. It makes you look like a person who stands against someone based not on moral dissonance, but out of illogical fear and hatred for that person.

You seem willing to drag yourself through the mud to try to drag me through it too.

You want to poke holes in my stance, despite the fact that our stances are more similar than different.

It's silly, and honestly I might dislike your language and your behavior, but I have no reason to think you hate women. You seem ignorant, which I dislike and discourage, but you don't show moral bankruptcy or sociopathy.

You've already proven how easily manipulated and confused you are by coming after me. And you did it to yourself. You compromised the integrity of your own views to attack others.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "You've given me an anecdote. You are, at best, trying to build a rapport with me and appeal to my empathy. But that does not make you moral, or right, or just."

I'm not necessarily claiming to be righteous. I'm only attempting to deliver what I see as the truth, nothing more and nothing less. People can believe what they like ultimately. If I can find a way to bring justice as well in my own small way that'd be great.

Even if Feminism can find redemption I don't think I'm the one to bring it. I think it might be too far gone because of what it is by nature. I think there are far better options out there that stand for justice for everyone, so that all people have the same opportunity. If anything stands in the way of that it will meet my and hopefully other people's opposition. If we can't choose things worth living for then what's the point of living at all?

That does not mean there is NO good within Feminism. I just think we can have better options now.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy it's possible I misread your intent and if I did I apologize. I've been around some pretty vile supporters of Feminism so I'm pretty jumpy.

[SomeOtherGuy]

You've made a very human error to be fair. I don't like the error, but I can't hold a grudge for it. I've made the same error before.

Get a better grip of where you stand. Because I'm still not entirely sure where that is.
Delve into some philosophy. Explore morality. Try to understand well-being. Reinforce your convictions so you can hold fast to them in the face of adversity.

I don't need the feminism label to believe what I believe. Neither do you. But you should respect when someone is a feminism if their reason for being so is just and right. Like the Take Owner.

Not every part of feminism is necessary, but I'll be damned if I tell anyone that there isn't still some groundwork to be layed.

By the way, the kind of Feminism you're talking about is Equality Feminism. It's in contrast to Difference Feminism.
However, I will argue that while the sexes are different, they're far more alike than given credit for.

[astatine]

@SomeOtherGuy , @ComDom i am glad to see you both make peace, finally. it is foolish to be against each other when our sole aim is the same... equality for all.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I've done a fair amount of research into at least some of this material. My goal is not to prohibit people from believing what they want BUT I do have a problem with people being indoctrinated.

My point was that all of the sub-groups of Feminism, no matter how wacky, belong to the umbrella of Feminism. That makes ALL of them Feminist, by extension that odd dichotomy of it being "Feminist" but not makes it a contradiction, paradox, and unfalsifiable/beyond criticism. All of that makes it extremely dangerous and virulent.

I'm quite comfortable where I stand, overall. I think I identify as a moral relativist, somewhat. Along with deduction being the only form of logic I knowingly accept. I guess you could say I'm a pragmatist. My conception of philosophy ties back to and is as useful to me as its ability to relate to science and truth. Outside of that one must determine how useful morality is to society as a whole which is ultimately subjective until/unless it's proven.

[SomeOtherGuy]

You should be focusing on lifting up people with you, not dragging them through the mud with you.
You create a world of misanthropy and pessimism, which is destructive at best.

I don't want to drag you through the mud anymore, and I don't want you to try to trod through it as well. It's not a pleasant thing. And it can be more damaging to people's well-being than anything. How much emotional energy have you burned already just coming at me?

I've burned plenty from this, it's not pleasant. The only positive thing is the moral indignation that reinforced where I stand and what I stand for. I suppose it's worth it for that.

The issue with Feminism is that the uneducated feminist does not acknowledge separatist feminism. When you mention what it is and that yes, it does exist in feminism and it must be quelled as part of the New Feminist movement, you create a different dialogue. You don't have to attack the whole label though.

[SomeOtherGuy]

We're actually a bit different. I'm a romantic who doesn't subscribe much to moral relativism. There is universal morality in many religious tenants spread across various cultures. The religion itself may not be right, but their universal philosophies certainly hold some baring.
Any moral that encourages the well-being of others seems more universally correct.
I subscribe to Buddhist philosophy, typically that of the current Lama. But I also subscribe to epicurean hedonism (be good, feel good), and various philosophies of popular fiction, like those of Gene Rodenberry.
I also enjoy Buddhist Philosophy because it places science, reason and logic above itself, while still keeping faith in it's own niche pocket where it doesn't interfere.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "You should be focusing on lifting up people with you, not dragging them through the mud with you."

Harder said than done sometimes from experience.

"How much emotional energy have you burned already just coming at me?"

I agree about confrontation BUT for the most part I enjoy it. I thrive on conflict. I don't force it anymore though.

"I've burned plenty from this, it's not pleasant."

I'm sorry to hear that. Seems like that may have been my mistake.

"You don't have to attack the whole label though."

Debatable. If you want to fix it from within you do so. I'd rather focus on creating something new. I don't like smaller movements that focus on difference groups of people.

"I'm a romantic who doesn't subscribe much to moral relativism."

I don't know that I'm one in a traditional sense but I acknowledge that unless there is a God it's subjective.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "I also enjoy Buddhist Philosophy because it places science, reason and logic above itself, while still keeping faith in it's own niche pocket where it doesn't interfere."

I like Buddhism too. I'm not aware of Buddhism using science or logic. I've always thought of it being more focused on finding Nirvana. I suppose that could be my own ignorance though

[SomeOtherGuy]

I would suggest becoming enlightened on Buddhist philosophy from verses by the Dali Lama. It's much more complex than people think. His philosophies are very intelligent emotionally.

I find a lot of the New Age religion that has hijacked Buddhism to be, in my words, "a crock of shit."

Nirvana is more of a spiritual and religious concept than it is a philosophy. I don't exactly believe in Nirvana. The bands not bad though.

I do, however, enjoy their view on attachment, anger, happiness and death, among many many others.

Science is far more compatible with Buddhism than the Abrahamic religions. That's evident by looking up Science and Christianity vs Science and Buddhism.
There is an organization to help bridge gaps between the two, the Mind and Life Center. It holds conferences.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy I'm familiar with the "Dali Lama." As far as pursuing emotionally driven philosophy that would be difficult for me because I'm not an emotionally driven person. I'm more driven by deduction/logic and science.

"Science is far more compatible with Buddhism than the Abrahamic religions."

I disagree wholeheartedly. I've looked into it myself. If you mean because Buddhism isn't composed of a supernatural component as much as the Abrahamic religions, perhaps. But Christianity can be compatible with science. Science does not deny the potential for the supernatural.

I find this site quite interesting: https://godandscience.org/

[SomeOtherGuy]

Interesting site. Unfortunately, it doesn't tell me anything I haven't already realized through my own conscious reasoning.

Science doesn't disprove a cosmic force or divine entity. In some ways, it supports it.

However science does disprove a lot of stories in Abrahamic texts. Like Noah's Arc, the Age of the World, Adam and Eve, and many of Jesus of Nazareth's miracles.
Further, some of the mythology in Abrahamic religions is just as far-fetched as that of Greek Mythology.
Not to say Buddhism doesn't also have contradictions. But it has fewer, and acknowledges when science is right.

But the subject of theology, while fun, isn't my focus. What's most important to me is Philosophy, and as far as philosophy goes, Buddhist philosophy just makes more sense to me than Abrahamic philosophy.
One of my big issues with Abrahamic Philosophy is its use of "If you don't do it, you will burn." Which moral reasoning has shown is not the best reasoning to use.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "However science does disprove a lot of stories in Abrahamic texts."

Perhaps that's possible. It's also possible that our conception of science is incorrect. It's also possible that the Bible is a book of symbols worst case scenario.

"Like Noah's Arc"

I could go in depth on this one but I doubt it's necessary. The Bible definitely uses analogies and hyperbole openly.

"the Age of the World"

The Age of the world with respect to the Bible could be representative of the time when God chose his people.

"Jesus of Nazareth's miracles."

Science has not disproven the potential for miracles.

"Further, some of the mythology in Abrahamic religions is just as far-fetched as that of Greek Mythology."

Potentially, yes.

"One of my big issues with Abrahamic Philosophy is its use of "If you don't do it, you will burn.""

Not necessarily.

"Which moral reasoning has shown is not the best reasoning to use."

Tell me more. I have no idea what you're talking about.

[AleDeEurope]

I'm really sorry for women in India, where even a cow has more value than them. I may get some shit for what I'm about to say, but fuck it: Western societies need no feminism, there's equality here, and if you don't see it is because you don't want. You wanna fight for a something you already have, claiming all women are equal to all men, but when reality hits you, when real women over in other countries like India need the help of all feminists, you hide your head in the dirt like an ostrich.
India needs feminism soooo bad, and their culture is so man-driven that it's gonna be really tough for them to change things without the help of other countries. Women are so oppressed that even themselves don't believe that they should be equal to men (just like you said, they're ignorant). Someone has to open their eyes, make them see the real world, make them see how a woman should live, which is with the same rights as us men.
Feminists groups in the west need to go to India and establish themselves there, where they are really needed, not in the US, Canada, Sweden, England or whatever other country where women are clearly equal to men. It's hypocritical to say they fight for women's rights in a country where women have the same as men, but when the time to prove what you really fight for comes, you do nothing.

I truly wish the best to all Indian women.

[astatine]

you bet... cows are worshipped, and beef is banned
i don't know if westerners need it or not, i am horribly confused now. but that is not for me to decide. but there are some women in the west who are true feminists... many do help countries like mine.
we do need sincere efforts from everyone across the globe. even awareness is more than enough. indian men should be so ashamed of their ways that they are forced to change their ways

[AleDeEurope]

I just haven't seen any feminists groups fighting for women over in countries where women are oppressed, like India, Middle East, or even China, where little girls are killed as they aren't desired.
Here in the West they fight for stuff they already have, so if they use those resources and energy to fight for women around the world that really need it, I think feminism will get a much better reputation.
I totally support feminism (not radicals though), but honestly, here in the West, they are practically useless right now. They fought and they got what they deserved, now it's time to move to other countries and keep fighting for women in need.

[hypno-trip]

China's sex ratio is more due to abortion than anything else dude you're mistaken

[SomeOtherGuy]

Give @AleDeEurope a little slack. I can already tell a lot of what he says is misinformation and lack of critical thinking.

Many feminists, just as the Take Owner said, fight for feminism in other countries. They do a lot of charity and support and many key feminists make trips there.
But because it wasn't in his feed and because the anti-feminists never mentioned it, somehow it doesn't exist. Right? Out of sight, out of mind.
However just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

There's also a thing called logistics. Grab a calculator and determine how much a flight to India might cost. How much living expenses would be for the number of years. How many activists you actually need without causing the Frog Boiling analogy.

Factor in that people who can be uprooted are not common. The dangers, especially in more rural areas.

It's not as simple as you make it out to be.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy "I can already tell a lot of what he says is misinformation and lack of critical thinking."

LOL "critical thinking" and "misinformation" this guy... I'm surprised you've even heard the words before although I doubt you know what they mean. You're just spouting off things you've heard... in a class maybe? I don't know. But in either case I'll say again Feminism is unnecessary to solve the problems over there contrary to what you believe.

[muspelhem_5]

The funny thing is that we men never seem to think it is OUR job to fight for women's rights. This site is full of men bragging about how they would die to protect their wife and kids etc., but when it comes to women's rights, we see it as a threat and don't lift a finger. We're like 'Meh, feminism is redundant in the west and the feminists should fight for Indian women'. What if women (who actually EXPERIENCE life as women) aren't experiencing equality? What if rape culture is real in the West too? What if women's bodies are legislated about by male politicians who couldn't care less? Etc. The least we could do is support feminists.

[AleDeEurope]

@muspelhem_5 I never said I didn't support feminism, actually I do, but we don't need it anymore in the West. If we need feminism in the west, we would also need men's rights activists.

[muspelhem_5]

How is it for you to decide if it is needed? You are not a woman. You don't go through the things they go through. To me it is completely obvious it is needed. E. g. with the rise of the Internet and smartphones, young girls are pretty much expected to send nudes to boys. That is a totally weird development, and a lot of young boys are creepily entitled about it.

Men face loads of problems in today's society. I am a man, I should know something about it. And I totally think we should fight for our rights, for our issues to be taken seriously.

But I don't see it as a battle of MRAs vs. radical feminists, which is just a shouting match.

The fact is that people face problems regardless of gender, and women have HAD to organize to get their problems addressed, because men (who ran things for thousands of years) didn't give a fuck.

Now that we men realise we also have problems, the solution is not to bash feminists. It's to solve our problems.

[AleDeEurope]

@muspelhem_5 we still need to fight for complete equality in every aspect, but we need to do it together, not just one gender fighting for themselves, and the other for themselves too, that's why we don't need feminism in the West, because both genders have problems, not just one, like years ago.
The example you gave is not fair, because women aren't obliged to send nudes, so if they send it is because they want to, not because someone forced them to.

[muspelhem_5]

I think the example is fair, because a culture has emerged (obviously inspired by p*rn), where boys feel like they have a right do demand it, and girls feel like they have a duty to demand it. Then when some boys decide to share the images without consent, the girl is shamed. There have been countless examples of this, and that is totally fucked up and just a modern version of the kind of crap that goes on in third world countries. These are kids. The boys don't know better, and the girls are often insecure kids who want the boy's affection. I mean, people do naïve things when they're in love. To have a culture that actively exploits that is sick.

[muspelhem_5]

*girls feel like they have a duty to supply it

[dudegrt09]

Hate to break it to you, but your advanced western societies don't have equality for women either, that is why women still have to fight for equal wages and a better work enviroment in general... You'll have to actually talk to some single working women to know this

[AleDeEurope]

@dudegrt09 hmm I guess India also has a lack of education.

[dudegrt09]

I bet I am 10 times more educated than you

[AleDeEurope]

@dudegrt09 if you think there's a wage gap, you're very uneducated, my friend.

[dudegrt09]

There is wage gap in a lot of industries, not all, but in a lot of them

[dudegrt09]

www.iwpr.org/.../pay-equity-and-discrimination

[AleDeEurope]

@dudegrt09 learn tbe difference between wages and earnings.

[dudegrt09]

The article is about income and wage disparity which is a fact, there are a thousands of bona-fide articles on the internet to reflect that

[Antizzl]

That seems more a human rights issue than feminism. I have heard many stories and seen documentaries on how indian culture regards their women. Dark skin light skin what does it really matter skin color is status symbol? Here white women risk cancer to be tan or dark depending on their preference. I think its bullshit. But if its any consolation i dont recommend a woman walking down the street alone at 11pm in any major metropolitan area in the USA either. Oddly I live in an area with a high indian population and it disgusts me how (I work in medical) if i ask the female patient a question her husband answers for her. I have to ignore him and ask her to please answer my question. They always look very scared before they answer. One day it occurred to me after seeing a documentary that because she answered me when they got home he probably beat her. So strange my personal culture is to protect the girls and women in my family. To encourage growth and education. My daughter costs me no more than my son does. My daughter always has home with me no matter what. You don't have to and you shouldn't hate your country. But I definitely understand what you are conveying. Best of Luck to you in your efforts to raise awareness

[astatine]

i am so glad you understand.
women in my culture are submissive. they are brought up that way

[Azara]

Not being able to walk alone as a woman has to do with women's rights not - just- human rights.

[Antizzl]

@Azara whatever. Sure. I'm was stating that even in America I do not recommend a woman walking alone in any major metropolitan area at 11 at night. Focusing more on the 11pm than being able to walk alone period. I see womens rights gay rights racial rights as human rights flat out across the board. If we keep separating and classifying things we as people will remain separated classifed and divided. Just want to give a better idea of my angle

[SomeOtherGuy]

The act of putting all those rights together under the umbrella as human rights is that those are very complicated issues with complicated needs.

It's like taking Indias culture, Russia's Culture, America's Culture, and Brazil's culture and just saying they're all culture, so why are we separating them?

They all work differently and require different attention and views. They're very complex, and important to the people who have a stake in them.

[DeltaDanner]

I agree feminism is needed very badly in some countries. Where women are mistreated and killed, it makes sense that the movement should go and help. However, that's not what I am seeing from feminists. Every thing I see from feminism (aside from this good post, very good MyTake by the way) is negative. Where there are REAL problems happening to women in other countries and REAL atrocities, feminists here in the US are more worried about men having there legs spread in public transit. They are rallying against battered men's shelters, going against a wage gap that has been proven time and time again to not exists, generalizing all men as rapists who should be treated as such. While a movement against women being killed for what they where should be happening, it is not. Instead there is a movement against men looking at women, spreading their legs in public, walking down the street, and having any sexual desire at all.
The movement needs a total overhaul coming from all true members or it needs to die out. People in your country need help that feminism could provide, if only feminism was what it says it is. I hear constantly "no 'true' feminists do that" but the reality is that the negative things that happen is all the public sees. "True" feminists need to get the movement back to what it needs to be, and start helping women who ACTUALLY need it.

[rjroy3]

" I just want to be able to walk down the street after 11p. m., alone. Ijust simply want every girl to get married to a man who couldn't care less about her skin colour, or how much she weighs"
" I just want every household to educate their daughter, and provide her with equal opportunites."

In America, we have these concerns for men too. Fewer men will go to college than women and that's just out of the group who graduate. Higher number of males dropping out of high school. Guys are left behind in that respect.

Race issues affect everyone man or women.
Women care about a man's weight (although not as much as men in general care about a woman's weight).
And walking down the street after 11p. m is debatable for anyone depending on the side of town you're on.

Not negating your points, just stating that in America specifically Feminism really is overrated. I even speak with feminists who agree that the third wave feminists are taking them a step or two backwards.
I can't speak for India, but it sounds like your country can really use feminism

[Anonymous]

Pointing out past human rights violations against women while ignoring past human rights violations against men does not build a case for feminism. All throughtout history all over the world men were forced into war agaisnt their will and killed, crippled, or emotionally scarred for life.

In fact many of the problems women have faced were a direct result of the female privalages that women didn't want to give up. For instance in some countries claiming they need feminisim the sons will be the only ones legally required to take care of the parents in their old age, while the daughters escape such responsbility. No surprise the laws favor men in the workforce. The laws have to so that men can fulfill their legal obligations.

Feminisim is a movement that only cares about one side and pretends the other side has no issues. As a result it is doomed to create the same types of injustices that it claims to fight against. That is exactly what has happened in the west.

People are moving on to movements that actually care about both genders. Most of the people you see that hate feminism are in support of equality of the genders. Feminisim is not about equality between the genders. If men start getting attention for our issues, then feminists activeily try to stop us. Therefore feminism becomes the enemy of equality.

[astatine]

where these men in the past crippled, killed, emotionally scarred by women? i don't see your point. did women ever exploit men? no. men chose to go on war with other men, and men killed men. no woman killed men. i fail to see your point.
if they openly disown their daughters, saying that their home isn't theirs, and get absolutely nothing from their parents' will, how on earth are the supposed to support their parents? using whose money? their husbands'?
just to be clear, i am not talking about the west, i don't live there. i am talking about the state in other countries where a thing called "feminism" doesn't exist.
you really think we are being petty?

[Opinion Owner]

Thank you for proving my point. For you feminism is clearly about men versus women. If women didn't do something then a man's pain doesn't matter. This is why feminism fails. Society hurts men by forcing them to go to war. Society hurts women by denying them the right to have jobs. Those issues shouldn't be about what was the gender of the people in charge. They are about individuals that had their rights violated by society.

There are many times in history where a few leaders decided to go to war and forced men into war upon pain of death or imprisonment. Refusal was not an option. The men that "chose" to go to war did so to fulfill their own gender roles. During world war two women would actually go around handing out white flowers to men to shame them for being cowards for not joining the army. Clearly women are not blameless.

[Opinion Owner]

Throughout history men had it just as bad as women because of society. Keep in mind women aren't as good at swinging a battle axe and you might figure out why some of these types of gender roles emerged. They were desperate people struggling to survive, and each gender had no choice but to do the job they were seen as being best at. Even if a man suffers at the hands of another man due to the pressures of society, that doesn't mean that both of those men weren't forced down that road because of their gender.

"if they openly disown their daughters, saying that their home isn't theirs, and get absolutely nothing from their parents' will, how on earth are the supposed to support their parents?" If you actually look at the laws and when they were written you find that men were legally bound to their gender roles first. That is why women lost those rights. It is not the other way around.

[astatine]

society did not hurt men. in the past, who called the shots? MEN! THEY decided they wanted to fight. women did not drag them to the battlefield. they did it themselves. men are responsible for their own "suffering". but they are not suffering now, so why should i care about what men did to each other in the past? i live in the present, and right now, where i live, gender equality is required.
i have never heard of a man being denied a job because he is a man. ever stopped to think that maybe he is just incapable? undeserving?

again, i am not talking about the west. women in my country did not shame them for not going on war. they just cried that their husbands will probably die, and they will become widows. and don't you dare judge them. you know nothing about widows of that period. their heads where shaved and they were made to stay in the attic where no one saw them. they were asked to especially not come out on auspicious occasions because they were untouchables then.

[Opinion Owner]

Most men did not have the power to call the shots. A few men in power did. Men and women together make up society. Do you really think that mothers, wives, sisters and daughters didn't have any influence on their men? Of course they did. Women have always been a part of society, and helped to shape culture.

Are you telling me that your country has never had any laws that could force a man to join the army? I don't believe that for a second. Even if men did choose to go to war all on there own, why would they do that? Maybe they did it to protect and provide a better life for their families? I have a feeling you don't know much about your countries history, other than the loyalist propaganda every country teaches in school.

No society in history has women so wonderful that 100% of them would all be crying about maybe losing their husband in war. Women literally kill their husbands every day in every country. You are over romanticizing the women in your country's past.

[Opinion Owner]

Your problem is that you see men as the bad guys, and women as the victims. That is the problem with feminism as well. It isn't about true equality by addressing issues that both genders have. It just turns women against men, and eventually men against women.

I am for equality and you still have an issue with that, just because I refuse to identify as a feminist, and actually think that men should have their issues listened to as well just like a woman should have her issues listened to. Why would you have a problem with someone that is for equality if feminism is really about equality? It is for the simple truth that feminism isn't about equality. The name feminism should be a pretty big clue that it favors one gender over the other.

[astatine]

no, they had absolutely no power. i am not exaggerating. read up
there were laws that forced men to join the army, but they were not forced my women! widows cried, not only because they had lost their husbands, but also because they would be burnt alive with them. if not that, then they will be treated as untouchables, inauspicious, bad omen.
even now, there are thousands of rituals before marriage. widows are not allowed to participate in them even now. not that it makes a huge difference, but the fact that there is a stigma attached to it even now... and it affects me greatly because my mother is a widow.
women were never completely empowered in my country, because they were never given the opportunity. they were not taught. so they were completely on their husbands. now if their husbands died, who were they to turn to? so they had to put up with the insults. widow remarriage was worse than a sin, but a widower could marry whoever he wanted, whenever he wanted

[astatine]

you are talking about issues faced my men in history. why does it matter now? tell me 3 major issues that can top the issues faced by women here

[Opinion Owner]

It doesn't matter if they weren't forced by women. That is the whole point. It doesn't matter who is hurting them they still deserve equal protection. Men and women have always faced problems and feminism only wants to address the female issues while pretending men had all the power and never suffered.

Women may need more help right now in certain areas in your country but only focusing on women's issues will create more injustice. Both genders need to be able to talk freely about problems they face and not assume that because someone is male he doesn't deserve as much help as the woman.

Feminism demonized men so badly here that cops have been seen laughing as they see women beating a man but if a woman lies and says her man hit her with no proof he could lose his kids. That is what happens when feminism teaches that only women suffer by men.

[Opinion Owner]

I don't know about your country well enough to say. I am sure there are plenty of issues the men face in every country. I can say what only focusing on the pain of one gender has done over here. If someone wants true equality both sides need to be considered every step of the way to prevent double standards from creeping in.

[astatine]

stop dwelling in the past! men suffered, so did women. can you change it now? are they suffering now?
i honestly think that we should first empower women and establish equality, and then address everybody's issues... one step at a time. men are already taught how to "control" their wives. because of men like them, maybe the real problems that men face are not being addressed. MAYBE.. but the first step is to make them unlearn many things, and simultaneously empower women and make them self-sufficient. when finally everyone at large has equal rights, then the real issues faced by both genders can be addressed.
the need of the hour is to instill confidence in women so that they feel equal, at least where i live. later, of course, our approach will change accordingly. but feminism is needed right now.

[astatine]

did you see the hate comments on the video? it is about the choices made by an actress who is battling depression and all sorts of things. the video is decent, with a powerful message, but everybody is calling her a slut (women too, because that is what they have been taught; to oppress their views) because she believes that she can wear or not wear what she wants to, and she have sex if she wants to.
read the comments and the number of dislikes if you don't believe me

[RationalLioness]

Utter retardation.

Men were never second class citizens as women have been and the majority of the archaic restrictions imposed on men that still stand today are BECAUSE OF MEN. Women weren't allowed to go to war back then because MEN said women didn't belong there/were to weak to go to war. MEN forced other MEN to go to war.

" For instance in some countries claiming they need feminisim the sons will be the only ones legally required to take care of the parents in their old age, while the daughters escape such responsbility."

That wasn't even coherent.

Feminism began as a women's rights movement when women were oppressed and had NO voice. It is still for women's rights but there are branches within it: those who want to oppress men, those who only want to further goals for women, those who care for both genders and want to lessen the divide, and those who care for all equally.

You can be a Feminist and have equality. Your enemy is common sense though.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

"MEN forced other MEN to go to war"

Exactly!!! But so few people seem to want to acknowledge that it's other men that made most of these issues :p If gender roles were enforced... then @Opinion owner, don't you realize that was all thought up by and forced by men? Can you seriously not see that if you really want more equality for men, then attacking feminism is the most useless thing you could do?

[Opinion Owner]

I am not the one dwelling in the past. You brought up the past. Women are the ones constantly bringing up the past to show men are the root of all evil. Claiming "men hurt men" as a way to pretend male issues are less important is sexist. Anyone can be a victim of society and their gender doesn't make them less of a victim.

Even in the west where women have many advantages over men they still use the excuse that we need to focus on all female problems first before dealing with male problems.

[alphadoggystyle]

Wow you guys are stupid @RationalLioness @astatine

Do you think it matters to the male citizens of a state who are forced to go to war, wheter it is a woman or a man in charge who orders them to go to war? Of course not, the matter of fact is that because they are male, they are expected to do dangerous things by society which women didn't need to do, these things didn't develop because of oppression against women, but rather natural gender roles based on physical ability. Women had less rights back then it is true, but they also had many advantages like this anonymous guy pointed out. Many of these old gender roles have lasting effects even today as to what society expects out of both women and men, some of these expectations are beneficial for women and some for men. Just because men called all the shots back then isn't relevant when the natural gender roles gave them plenty of disadvantages from the beginning.

[astatine]

@Opinion owner , @alphadoggystyle i don't understand why we are bringing up history, firstly
secondly, since it is already brought up, men going to war was the drawback of them calling the shots. why would you blame the women because men decided to fight with each other? did the women ask them to?
thirdly, women were considered "weak" by men, and so they were not allowed to go to the battlefield. not that they chose not to. what advantages are you talking about? you are terribly misinformed! widows were treated as untouchables. sure they had plenty advantages!

why don't you men bloody live in the present?

[Opinion Owner]

YOU brought up history.

"men going to war was the drawback of them calling the shots" Nope. Them calling the shots was the reward for going to war.

"why would you blame the women because men decided to fight with each other?" I am not blaming women. I am blaming society which women were a part of whether you want to believe that or not. Do you really think mothers had no influence on how their sons turned out?

"did the women ask them to?" If the woman expected to live in a safe country with enough supplies to take care of their family then yes they did.

"they were not allowed to go to the battlefield. not that they chose not to. what advantages are you talking about?" Most women did not want to go on the battlefield. Being able to avoid going to war completely was an advantage for most women. In fact in England for a long time women didn't want the right to vote because they were afraid it would mean they could then be drafted into the army just like the men.

[Opinion Owner]

"why don't you men bloody live in the present?" Because you and other feminists keep bringing up the past to prove how bad us men always treated women and then take everything out of context.

[astatine]

did you even read the mytake completely, or just the first paragraph?

during the war, women were ASKED TO stay at home. their sole purpose was reproduction and taking care of their families so that more soldiers could be recruited. however, during the war, many women joined the workforce too ("we can do it"). they worked in factories and worked towards building the economy.
i don't know what to say to highlight the contrast between widows in the west at that time, and in India. you don't know how they were treated. of course women did not support the war. but did they have a say? no, they didn't. they did not call the shots. men did. therefore, it looked like "society" made men go, but actually, women's opinions weren't even considered, although they were part of the society

[astatine]

@alphadoggystyle

[Opinion Owner]

I read all of it. Then you chose to obsess over me making a comment about it.

"of course women did not support the war" Again YOU are bringing up the past, and this is not the whole story. If women want to live in a safe land, then they are going to expect their country to have an army. They may not like the idea of war, but often the women would have supported the war efforts and saw it as something necessary even if they didn't like it.

"they did not call the shots. men did" We have been over this before. Men had certain responsibility placed upon them by society that they HAD to see through. It isn't about men versus women. It is about society hurting both genders but in different ways. As long as you ignore that, then feminism can not exist as a movement for equality, because you refuse to see the pain of men. Instead you end up believing all they ever did was spread pain and suffering, and ignore that in many cases women would not have wanted to trade places with men.

[Opinion Owner]

I don't know all of India's history, but the fact you didn't even know men where forced into the army and had to look it up tells me that you know even less about the history of male and female gender roles. Gender roles were necessary at the time. Women need to stop whining about things that happened long ago.

You want to talk about current issues then fine. I support equality. However when you have to point to the past by picking and choosing facts to unjustly make men look worse than they are, you turn the movement toward equality into a hate movement by building unnecessary resentment.

[astatine]

what made you think i didn't know that already? men had to fight in world wars even when india was not involved. but it was a British colony.

fine. forget i ever wrote the first paragraph. what is your view about the other things mentioned, and how do you propose to tackle them?

[Opinion Owner]

You need to examine each law one by one and make sure its change effects both laws fairly by looking at why that law is even in place. As I mentioned I don't know much about India so I don't know how changing some of those laws would effect the men there.

In other countries however sons are forced to accept responsibility for the parents while the daughters are not. Simply making it easier for the women to get jobs leave the men at a disadvantage. This disadvantage would make the men less willing to let women compete in the job market since by law the men NEED good jobs or they can be sued by their parents. An example of a way around this could be a law so that a certain amount from all working children would go to their aging parents and that would fulfill their legal requirements to their parents. You have to look at both sides every time you make a change in the law if you want true equality, otherwise you end up with a gender war where they see each other as enemies.

[Opinion Owner]

Since the men are no longer being held fully accountable, they would be more open to the women picking up the slack. Especially if it meant they would have twice the amount of children taking care of them someday.

[Opinion Owner]

What I meant by that was that the men wouldn't actively try to keep women from getting jobs or advancing in the workforce like they would, if they had to carry the burden all by themselves. It would actually speed up the process for equality.

[astatine]

i am pretty sure there is no law like that, here in india.
as for discrimination at workplace, i think women don't have an upper hand. in fact, people prefer not to hire them due to their commitments at home, long working hours etc.

[Opinion Owner]

If men are not under a legal obligation then they may still be under a social obligation. Education could be used to convince people that old gender roles are no longer needed, and that they shouldn't be shamed for stepping in and filling the other role. I actually got laughed at by a woman from another country when she found out I did my own housework. She thought only women should do that. So I can understand if the men there are afraid of being thought of as less than men because the help out with the house more since their wives work.

This would also mean that women would need to learn to give up some power in the house, and let the men do things his way while helping out. Here women still think men don't know what they are doing, and often act like the guy is an idiot for having his own way of doing things. This makes the guy stop wanting to help around the house. So acceptance of women in the workplace, and acceptance of men working at home would need to be taught.

[Opinion Owner]

As you work women out of her gender role, you will need the men to fill in for the traditional female gender role more. So you really need to address both of these issues at once. Or else the women are just going to end up like in a lot of countries where they are working full time and doing all the housework.

[astatine]

i see your point. stay-at-home dads don't even exist in here. they do get laughed at. it is the problem of society at large, that refuses to let go off gender roles, but it is convenient for many

[HeartsBloodDupre]

@alphadoggystyle and the rest of the guys: Do all of you really not understand that anything that was enforced or expected, whether it was due to natural roles or not, was because other MEN made everything that way? It's actualy really simple. men's issues or any disadvantages you think there are... Attacking feminism doesn't change any of that, at all.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

@alphadoggystyle And your username, Oh My God you argue about expectations and gender roles. Damn.

[alphadoggystyle]

@heartsblooddupre

It doesn't matter if it was other men who established those gender roles. Majority of men had no choice or voice in the matter. They where forced to do disadvantageous things. Feminism should be about fixing issues that both genders face today, it doesn't matter what happened long ago and who did what. The natural gender roles lead to differences in expectations of both genders. Today we need to recognize that not only women have issues, it doesn't matter in the slightest that it was men who enforced the rules long ago.

[Opinion Owner]

Since you seem to think that men are the only ones that made anything the way it is, then why don't we compare the society that men built with the society that women built? Oh, that's right according to feminists women have never contributed anything at any point in history, so it looks like someone had to step up to the plate. Hardly something that women can complain about.

The view of a non feminists like myself, is that women did in fact contribute to society all along and helped shape what society eventually became. So which is it? Are women useless and therefore do not have a right to complain? Or are women equals with men and need to accept their share of responsibility? You can't have it both ways.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

@alphadoggystyle They were forced to have no choice because of other MEN, not because of their wives, who had even less of a voice than they did. If you want to deal with both genders' issues, you could be an equal rights activist or egalitarian, but why do the core values of Feminism have to be attacked? You're not accomplishing anything by doing that.

@OpinionOwner: Then why are *you* complaining then? If you're saying that a few men had to make society that way because no one else was willing to take responsibility, then why would you even blame the women for that? Also, the women had LESS of a voice than their husbands/family did, so trying to blame them and then saying they didn't contribute, and then doing a 180 and saying that they had a huge influence makes no sense at all.

You attacking Feminism instead of dealing isn't benefiting anyone even remotely.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

I meant to say: You attacking Feminism and women instead of dealing with and trying to fix men's issues isn't helping anyone.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

In other words, you attacking Feminism and saying that it's bad... Wouldn't that only force you to go back to square one where men were being exploited by other men?

[Opinion Owner]

This is not a battle of the sexes like you want to turn it into. Men were not being exploited by "other men". They were being exploited by "their society" which is made up of "men and women". I am not blaming women. In fact I am not blaming anyone. I am saying that women have always been a part of the society that embraced gender roles. Feminism is the movement that want's to lay blame, not me.

In the past there were good reasons for gender roles, and it wasn't anyone's fault. Life was just hard back then and people were doing the best they could. Our technology has since changed things and now allows both men and women to escape our gender roles. This is also why marriage is on the decline. It use to take both parents to raise a child. Now we can send them off to school, afford to hire someone to watch our kids, or just set them in front of the television while we do something else. Times have changed and that means things like gender roles and marriage are less important.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

OH! LOL, you just hate gender roles because you think women get certain advantages from them, and so you want to get rid of them so that men can also get the same benefits LOL It's really funny for m, e to read because there are a lot of guys on this site who are like you. Still attacking Feminism doesn't change anything, and never will.

But I get it now, you want to be like those Asian Herbivore men :p

[Opinion Owner]

You are making no sense. It is a fact both gender roles come with advantages and disadvantages. Also I would like to thank you for helping to prove that feminists make fun of men that don't want to fit into our gender roles even as these same feminists fight to escape their own gender roles. It really shows that feminists are not supporting equality.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

I was being dead serious; research them on Google if you don't believe me. Also, in my experience, the people who are usually hardcore traditionalists are MEN, not women.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

Or in other words, many of the people who support traditional gender roles are men... Like using this site as an example: Most of the people saying they want a traditional family, or that feminists are evil because they're destroying women/gender roles... are almost always MEN. It seems like quite a few men like the traditional side of things...

Why aren't you arguing with them? They're not making anything more equal after all, even though they trashtalk feminists and feminism too.

[Opinion Owner]

"I was being dead serious; research them on Google if you don't believe me" I know they exist. I have heard about them several times before. My point is that you a feminist, were mocking them for wanting out of their gender role. That is the opposite of what feminists claim to stand for and yet feminists like yourself mock any man that tries to leave his gender role. Start paying attention to how often you hear the phrase "real man" used to shame male behavior when he doesn't want to fulfill his gender role. It happens a lot more than you would think.

"people who are usually hardcore traditionalists are MEN" That is exactly my point. Feminism has done nothing to help men escape from our gender roles. If men are having to follow their gender roles, then it only makes sense that they would want women to follow the female gender role in return. You have to free both genders from gender roles instead of only worrying about one side. Otherwise we will never be rid of gender roles.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

No, I was actually saying that you want to be just like them. It was funny to me, because you're attacking feminism when the truth is you're just envious of the benefits that you think women are getting that as a man you're not getting, so you wnt to destroy gender roles. Can you seriously not understand that by saying you want to get rid of gender roles you're supportinf feminism? Whether you want to admit it or not, you haven't been able to argue against my point about MEN being the ones mainly promoting gender roles...

L

[HeartsBloodDupre]

Bleh. Spelling mistakes because I accidentally hit Enter.

Anyway, if you want to escape from gender roles WHY will you not argue with other MEN? That's the whole point I've been trying to make!!!

[HeartsBloodDupre]

Why mainly attack women? Why say you're an anti feminist? When the traditionalist men do exactly the same things?

[Opinion Owner]

"you want to be like those Asian Herbivore men :p" If wanting equality really is the same thing as being a feminist, then what was the meaning of that statement? Instead you would have just disagreed with my definition of feminism but agreed with me for wanting equality. Instead you got caught being hypocritical about your beliefs. Now you are trying to twist your own words to save face.

"It's really funny for me to read because there are a lot of guys on this site who are like you." You think it is funny when men suffer from sexism? Just because feminism doesn't talk about it doesn't mean men don't face sexism all the time.

"attacking Feminism doesn't change anything, and never will." Yes it does. Feminism needs the support of men and they are losing almost all of the men that once supported it. Even more and more women see feminism as sexist movement against men. It is time to stand up against the hypocrisy and support actual equality instead.

[Opinion Owner]

"Anyway, if you want to escape from gender roles WHY will you not argue with other MEN? That's the whole point I've been trying to make!!!" Who says that I don't argue with men? I do. I don't tolerate sexism toward either gender.

"Why mainly attack women?" I haven't attacked women at all. I have attacked feminism. Feminism is not the same thing as women. Again this is further evidence that you see feminism as being purely for women.

"Why say you're an anti feminist?" It isn't about equality for both genders although it pretends to be. That is why I oppose it. It stands in the way of the real progress we need.

[Opinion Owner]

"When the traditionalist men do exactly the same things?" Again you are assuming things without knowing anything about me.

I don't care what role people prefer to take or share. Some want both of them to work. Some will prefer to stay home, and other will prefer to have their spouse stay home. That is a private decision that each couple needs to make for themselves. That is about personal compatibility. No matter which role someone takes on, they should be free to do so without being shamed for their decision.

However if by "traditionalist" you mean men that don't want women to have the right to choose how to live their lives, then I do oppose those men.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

You're just trying to distract me from my main point by trying to hit as many different points as you can. But that's not going to work at ALL. Because I understand that:

You, and quite a few of the other men on this site, try to really paint feminism as being unfair towards men as much as possible. You'll all give tons of excuses, or try to argue about issue after issue...

When the truth of the matter is exactly what you said in your original answer: The core reason that feminism bothers all of you so much is because you think: "In fact many of the problems women have faced were a direct result of the female privileges that women didn't want to give up."

[HeartsBloodDupre]

I don't know whether it's because feminism makes you feel emasculated (although several guys said that it does on my Q) or because you all are jealous because you think that women are getting more benefits than you are, just by being female... But trying to pretend that you seriously care about equality or even men's issues, when the truth is that you're just jealous is just so...

I know you'll deny it, but every single point that you've made to me, is based on men having to do more, or being expected to do more while women aren't.

For the last time, you're not solving anything by attacking feminism.

[Opinion Owner]

Distract you? lol No I have no such plan.

You, and quite a few of the other men on this site, try to really paint feminism as being unfair towards men as much as possible" Yes that is true. We do believe that it is unfair towards men and that is why we don't feel it is about equality.

"In fact many of the problems women have faced were a direct result of the female privileges that women didn't want to give up." That is not the core reason. The core reason would be that feminism misrepresents history to make men sound evil and that we have no problems. This twisted and sexist version of history that they teach turns women into sexists by teaching hatred and mistrust of men.

[Opinion Owner]

These feminists that now have a twisted version of history now think that only women have ever had problems in society and that there is no need to look at how society effects men. Since they think men have already set society up in a way to always give men the advantage, they assume we would have dealt with all of our own problems by now. So the possibility of actually looking at our side of things seems unreasonable to them. The truth is society wasn't set up to deal with all of the male issues. It tried to be as fair as it could. Sometimes it wasn't as fair as it could have been, but overall they tried to be fair.

[HeartsBloodDupre]

Hmm. Your new answer gave me an idea:

Why do you think Feminists should care about men's issues? If what you're saying is that feminism is terrible... Then why don't you just stick to being egalitarian or an equal rights activist? Why are you attacking feminism and saying it needs to focus more on men's issues, when there are other options?

In other words, why aren't you just ignoring feminism, since you think it's so bad?

[HeartsBloodDupre]

It was late last night, so I didn't write that how I really wanted to:

What I've been trying to say is: Since you believe that Feminism is so terrible and destructive towards real equality... Then why would you be trying so hard to change or shape the movement into focusing more heavily on men's issues, when there are other options/movements to choose from?

[HeartsBloodDupre]

I guess you don't want to debate anymore LOL I don't mind stopping. Still, I want to point out that it's really obvious why you hate Feminism, and it's got NOTHING to do with feminists responding more to men's issues.

I thought so xD

[Opinion Owner]

I have a job. I can't always respond right away.

"Then why would you be trying so hard to change or shape the movement into focusing more heavily on men's issues, when there are other options/movements to choose from?" It is because feminism pretends to be about equality, while the other movements don't. Men wanting equality putting their faith in feminism end up very disappointed. If people withing the movement stopped pretending it was about true equality then I wouldn't have as much problem with it. That and feminism misrepresents the past to make it look like men have enslaved women for centuries, when in fact societies in the past were just doing the best they could with the technology they had at the time. Today we no longer need gender roles. That doesn't mean that men have purposely stacked the deck in every society so that we don't have our own issues just like women do.

[genuinlysensitive]

Why shouldn't you be a feminist? Why shouldn't you hate women because they are women? Why shouldn't you hate men because they were born men? The answer to ALL is the same.

Make no mistake, feminists do not want equality that is just their propaganda. They want to do what they did here in the west. They take a country where women have few rights, probably can't even vote, then present themselves as crusaders for equality. Since women are as you said "treated almost like second class citizens." the fact that they focus ONLY on women and blame (shocker) all of their problems on men as a whole they seem correct. In doing so they immerse themselves like parasites into the host country's media, government, and education.

Then once the human rights violations stop they can reveal their true agendas; denying access to higher education to men, teaching young children that men only want sex, that when a man expresses natural human sexuality it is "misogyny" (of course female sexuality is acceptable, ah "equality" according to feminists), promoting the idea that anything other than complete female domination in ANY industry is proof that men are denying access to women in that industry with NO proof whatsoever, saying that just by BEING around women men are raping them, denying men in court (especially family court) any semblance of a fair chance. I could go on, but I hope I have made my point.

Make no mistake by embracing Feminism as the West has will only DOOM you to repeating the same history. Learn from our mistakes, embrace movements that are about true equality.

Instead of emulating Feminist Hate mongers such as Dworkin or MacKinnon, emulate people who are HUMAN RIGHTS activists. Someone like Martin Luther King, or Mahatma Gandhi (who I believe you are somewhat familiar with), or Eleanor Roosevelt! People who actually want peace and tolerance, not simply to oppress a different group of people!

[GirlScoutsRevenge]

Jesus Christ, take the tinfoil off your head and maybe step away from the computer for a while... You're in too deep.

[astatine]

are you kidding me? what man has ever been deprived of higher education? no one is taught that men only want sex. but people in many third world countries are taught that it is their duty to fulfill every whim and fancy of their husbands. you have no idea how many men desire to marry a virgin girl, when they themselves may or may not be virgins. are you saying that women don't get raped, but claim that they do?
there are zero industries completely controlled by women here. they are expected to complete minimal education, and manage their homes and children as that is what they are supposed to to, that is what their mothers did, and their mothers
i am not a fan of Mahatma Gandhi for many reasons unknown to people who don't stay in india.

[RationalLioness]

Zero common sense and ripe with generalizations. How foolish.

[ComDom]

Most people were denied educations in the past. It's only been common for the masses for 200 years give or take. Of course men want virgin women. Why would a guy want to marry a woman who didn't sleep around vs. one who did?

[genuinlysensitive]

Take owner, yes I never said it was equal in your country. There are many ways women are repressed, and poverty is rampant.

"are you saying that women don't get raped, but claim that they do?"

You really ARE a feminist trying to put words in my mouth and paint me as a rape denier. I must be because I am not a feminist, according to you lack of logic. BULLSHIT!

Rape is a horrible evil vile crime! But to blame men for rape is not the answer any more than to blame ethnic minorities for murder.

As for zero industries controlled by women there, that is because they need more rights. Your mistake is feminism and hating men is the ONLY way of achieving those rights. You are not asking yourself how this will be achieved or what will happen once it does.

I understand that in many aspects of the current culture women are expected to complete minimal education. Is it right to try and create a culture where men are expected to complete minimal?

As for Gandhi I am curious as to the

[genuinlysensitive]

reasons you speak of. At least here in the states we have not heard that much negative about him. Although no one is perfect and it wouldn't be the first time Western Sources have gotten it wrong. Care to enlighten me?

[SomeOtherGuy]

Dude? You didn't know...

Ghandi use to sleep in piles of girls. Amongst other rather unusual behavior. I will say he had some good philosophies that should be observed, and had a humanitarian viewpoint. But he was definitely a bit of a creeper and at times questionable.

The same issues of enlightenment come with Buddhism. People in the U. S. have Buddhism all messed up.

Also your speed to jump to conclusions and put words in other people's mouths and take quickly to a defensive, frightened stance is more indicative of your human nature than anything. This person is doing what any human being is prone to do, not just feminists.

You really are in too deep. Take off your foil hat and perhaps explore a different viewpoint.

[SomeOtherGuy]

I can already tell you're horribly scared and frightened and confused about feminism. Mostly confused.

"WHY ARE PEOPLE ARGUING THAT FEMINISM IS GOOD ITS CLEARLY THE EVIL OF THE MATRIARCH! BEE-WOO-BEE-WOO" I hear you chanting.

So why do people follow it? It's not to stop us from our uncontrollable urge to rape everything. Because that's stupid and we don't like the separatist feminists who say that either. It's because there is a part of it worth exploring to help us define who we are morally.

Ever think that maybe there is some good and some merits that sensible people are agreeing with? Try reading something from Male Feminists and see why they follow it.

Don't be afraid to try understanding something you're afraid of. Or removing yourself from defensive stances that protect your bubble. Dare yourself to be wrong for once.

I was wrong both when I was scared of feminism and that it'd emasculate me, and when I thought feminism was all good and separatists weren't feminists.

[genuinlysensitive]

The only thing I'm horribly scared and confused about is how a hate mongering group has manged to make it acceptable to hate men, and us a supposedly advanced and open society can simply accept it.

[genuinlysensitive]

Also, emasculation has nothing to do with it. It is not about emasculation it is about dehumanization.

[Schrodingerscat]

Feminism if often represented in wrong way. It is about equality for both men and women One must take into consideration that you have to treat unequals unequally to make them equal. I consider myself to be a feminist. I am an Indian and I do think that India needs feminism.
Being said that, I do not agree with what actress is endorsing. Adultery is NOT empowerment. Adultery is wrong no matter who does it. I think that one line ruined it all. I agree with all points in the video, except that one. The hate you see for that video is mostly for that one line.
Also, I must say that one must be civil while expressing difference in opinion. This refers to crass and sexist hate comments on that video.
You mentioned about darker girls being looked down upon. The actress herself appeared in a fairness cream commercial. So, I doubt her commitment towards this issue.

[genuinlysensitive]

"It is about equality for both men and women" That is what is says it is. But that is just propaganda.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@genuinlysensitive That isn't propaganda. That's a subset of feminism. Please take a moment to educate yourself between the multiple platforms of feminism.

Separatist Feminism, Equality Feminism, Difference Feminism, Lipstick Feminism, Sex-Positive Feminism, Third-World Feminism. To name a few.

Sure, not all feminism is good. But to say all feminism is bad stands equally ignorant. I wish that both the anti-feminists AND the feminists could recognize this truth.

Feminism is far broader than the both the critics and those who rally for it realize.

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy it's 100% propaganda. Where do you get this garbage from? Subsets of Feminism ARE Feminist and that's the WHOLE point. Feminism is corruption.

[astatine]

i am glad you support feminism.
i am not talking about the actress, obviously she agreed to shoot the video for her own selfish reasons. i just liked the message it conveyed.
also, if she wants to commit adultery, it is her choice. who are we to question her? isn't India a democratic nation?

[astatine]

@SomeOtherGuy i am contented to know that there are people with a conscience on this site
@ComDom i refuse to be trolled

[ComDom]

@astatine I'm not trolling anyone. I stand by what I said. Feminism is at best unnecessary, at worst a corruptive entity. Did he annoy me right there? Yes. But it doesn't take away from my point.

[Blackwatch8494]

I think you raise some valid points and in India and much of the Arab world your argument rings true. In the Western world I would have to say that feminism is definitely a good thing in moderation. There are double standards going both ways however in America at least. Also I think the acid attacks are absolutely horrendous and are despicable. Any civilized person could see this however in America recently a woman dumped acid on her boyfriends genitals for recording their sexual intercourse without her consent. His penis was burned to the point that it had to be removed and he now urinates through a tube. She was cheered and told "you go girl" by many in the comment sections of the online articles. The man decided not to press charges because "it wouldn't bring back his manhood" which made some "feminists" cheer even harder. Now think of the story with the genders reversed. Every feminist would be up in arms and rightly so. However because it is a male on the receiving end of this hateful and disturbing crime they see it as a case of an empowered woman taking a justified revenge. So my warning to anyone reading is to not let "feminism" or "menism" cloud your judgment on issues such as this. They go both ways and the most important thing to remember is that genders are equal. No one should receive special treatment and pardon for crimes they commit.

[GirlsLie]

I honestly don't understand what "active" feminist are fighting for here in the United States, there isn't much to complain about in our country in my opinion. And when I think of the way women are treated in other countries it makes me sick, I wish some of the women here would stop looking for things to complain about in a country where you can do pretty much anything that a man can do.

[astatine]

help from informed people will be greatly appreciated by many women living in countries like mine

[GirlsLie]

I'm sorry you have go through that, I wish men would take a bigger stand in countries like that as well. Don't they care that the women they love have to go through things like that.

[astatine]

they don't realise what they are doing is wrong. it is cultivated in their minds, they have grown up watching the interaction between their parents. they think it is the way it is supposed to be. same is the case with the girls. they don't realise that it is unfair to them

[GirlsLie]

It's sad that people are that brainwashed.

[Belleza2]

I normally disagree with any post that has to do with feminism - not because I think feminism is overrated because it is not - however, I agree with what you mean, I learned enough about India and 2nd and 3rd world countries to understand that women are nothing and we represent nothing there and you chose very wise words to describe what you mean. The funny thing is I grew up in a country where a woman almost never had to find for her own rights on what she chooses to do with her life so coming to America and hearing that I will get paid less than a man doing the same damn job within the same damn career is barbaric. And I love Deepika Padukone she is so damn beautiful!

[astatine]

i am elated to know that you aren't against feminism, as opposed to those who can't seem to remember what it started as, and why we need it in India.
it surprises me that you know who Deepika Padukone is!

[Belleza2]

oh I watch Indian movies, in fact I grew up with them - in Russia that was our entertainment aside from vodka crazed lunatics

[astatine]

oh! that's interesting!

[been_waiting]

I AM SO DONE WITH THIS SITE!!! the men are STILL attacking you and still defending what the misogyny in your country as @comdom is doing. I'm seriously so fucking done with the fucked up pieces of shit "men" that this site attracts.

Anyway, this was a great Take.
You worded things very eloquently. I recently watched the documentary "Its a Girl" about female gendercide in India and china and it opened my eyes to a lot of issues.

[astatine]

thank you so much! you are talking about this site, i am done with MEN!

[muspelhem_5]

I can understand your frustrations, but I don't believe men are born evil. Granted, our testosterone levels after the onset of puberty might play a role, but I think the culture is rotten. It is the way men are raised, by their parents, by institutions, by pop culture.

I probably know more about guns than I do about female anatomy. And I'm not even much of a gamer, and don't only watch action movies.

Of course it is also a question of personal responsibility, but upbringing also plays a part in that.

I hope we can change these things.

[p0rtis26]

You can leave any time you want. As a woman you have that right.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@muspelhem_5 You hit one of the nails on the head.
"I know more about guns than I do about female anatomy."
The second I learned more about female anatomy, I became a lot more confident in bed. That makes a difference.

People aren't born evil. The only people "born evil" are people born with sociopathic brain wiring. And even then it's not so black and white as "born evil."
What determines a person's morality is largely the philosophy their culture has adapted. People in India are surrounded by misogynistic philosophy that highly favors men over women. What will help them is a reform to their culture through education and new laws.

[genuinlysensitive]

"I'm seriously so fucking done with the fucked up pieces of shit "men" that this site attracts." Yea feminists don't hate men at all :p

[muspelhem_5]

Thanks @SomeOtherGuy :) Me too! I finally found the vagina lol!

[SomeOtherGuy]

@genuinelysensitive Don't make stupid assumptions like that. You're lumping yourself in with dumbasses who exercise poor reason and strawman fallacies.

@muspelhem_5 lol nice one.

[been_waiting]

@muspelhem_5 I never said men were born evil. Never even said they were evil. So. Yeah

[been_waiting]

@genuinelysensitive didn't say I hate men? Said there's a lot of bad ones on here.

[muspelhem_5]

Oh, my bad. I was watching the movie 'Men Are Born Evil' and got it mixed up with your opinion.

[been_waiting]

Oops misspelled it. I replied to you @genuinlysensitive

[genuinlysensitive]

@astatine I was talking about the poster of the opinion. been waiting. Make no mistake This is the kind of people you are CHOOSING to support (the quote was from her). You sound like someone with a good heart who wants to help PEOPLE. Feminists do not want to help people unless they are female, hence "Femin" ists. And make no mistake that will be the future of your country if you embrace feminism.

[astatine]

@genuinlysensitive i am really confused as to what you stand for.
feminists are not concerned only about females, but it so happens that fight for the rights women are deprived of, especially in areas where women are not allowed to voice their opinions, because they know that men can fight for their own
make no mistake, they don't hate men, and they don't want to put men in cages for the rest of their lives.

[ielykq]

it is so refreshing to see a meaningful post about things that /matter/. while equal pay is something that can be fought for, i definitely don't think it should be the main focus. there is SO much more to feminism that people don't bother to look into because of the stigma a lot of today's "activists" have put on the movement with trivial fights. i just want to add in that not only do woc and in countries other than america and co have it very difficult and need a lot of boosting, but also lgbtqpia+ women. we all need to band together to break the binds women are put in. this also helps men's issues, which is something people tend to overlook.

[astatine]

I totally agree with you... we have to stick together and fight for equality

[genuinlysensitive]

Since when did supporting a hate mongering group become "meaningful?"

[RationalLioness]

I agree that Feminism is needed where you are. There are different aspects of Feminism here in the West and one faction (which a lot of people tend to ignore) are those who, like me, believe in getting equality for everyone regardless of gender.

I'm sorry that it's so bad where you live.

[astatine]

i support equality too. i don't understand how i have offended so many men

[RationalLioness]

Those guys you've offended tend to be irrational and only see the "illogical Feminists" instead of recognizing the good.

[astatine]

how will the world change? i have no idea where to start from
i volunteer to teach children from poor backgrounds, especially girls, but i don't think my work is significant enough to bring a wave of open-mindedness. i wish i could do more

[Anonymous]

Agreed with you totally. Most guys railing against feminism are railing against in places where it isn't needed, like the US (certain strains of feminism, I'd add, not all are like what I'm about to describe). In the US, feminists want to create the same situation as in your country, with the men as the victims--obviously retarded and bad for society. And those US feminists don't give a shit about your problems--they are too concerned about their selfish and hateful concerns. They complain an awful lot about not getting what they want, lie about, shame people about it, but I don't see them helping people like you where help is needed.

Your country needs real feminism, not the hijacked bullshit version here in the West. Men aren't complaining about real feminism--that's needed, and hopefully you get a version of it in your country. It's the BS neo-Nazi feminism we don't like.

[astatine]

i get it... they are confused themselves, i suppose. they don't want chivalry and gender roles to end, but want equality too. one can't have the best of both worlds. that is what i have inferred from reading many mytakes here.
i was lucky enough to be brought up by well-informed, educated people, but many people in india aren't like that. even if are educated, they refuse to part ways with orthodox practices

[RationalLioness]

That is a lie. All of it. You don't speak for me Anon-pussy and others who do care.

@TakeOwner: Many Feminists want FORCED/EXPECTED gender roles to end. But it's truly about a choice that women can make. She can choose to stay within the traditional gender role or she can choose her own path. It's all about the choice. Many Feminists believe that men can choose to reject their archaic gender roles as well if they wish to. It depends on the individual.

Please do not listen to the nonsensical fools who tend to generalize.

Also, if you see someone talking about "true equality", simply facepalm. The argument that if a woman wants to get paid equally for a man's job that she can do just as well, she must first pay for dinner for men is an idiotic argument that makes no sense.

[astatine]

@RationalLioness i was terribly misled. i was under the impression that feminists in the west were selfish, and i just HAD TO highlight the contrast. the situation faced by women here, and in the west. so i wanted to remind everyone what feminism really meant, and where is it required.
but now i have realised that feminism is defined in the same way on any part of the globe. it is just a propaganda by men who feel threatened by powerful, independent women; that is what they have been oppressed since centuries.

[singlebee]

You take is good but why people disliked this video if because deepika talks about and promotes women to SLEEP OUTSIDE MARRIAGE!! that is not feminism... ! This is why the video got so much of hate...

Feminism is about equality... i saw the video myself and its nothing about being equal... It's all about sex... that's all.. She also talks about deciding whos baby she wants to have and also talks anout coming home at 4 am in the morning...

Its all bullshit... and ots because whatever she said in the video is not about feminism

[genuinlysensitive]

Yea no feminism is not about equality, that is just how the group presents itself, it is about exclusively helping women and hurting men. It is sexist at its core, and if India embraces it, they will be falling into the same trap as we did here in the West.

You do not need sexism against men to stop sexism against women. You need equality for all!

[ChaosKilledTheDinos]

Not sure where you learned about feminism @genuinlysensitive. As a feminist, I'm concerned with the antiquated divorce / child custody laws, the fact that men are more likely to be incarcerated, that men are more likely to have mental health issues, for the rights of LGBT men, are more likely to experience homelessness, and their experiences with rape. Feminism is dangerous to generalize because it is both an ideology and a series of movements all with different sects (like most ideologies). I do agree that there are groups and women out there who seem to view or distort feminism into sexism against men. And you're right that won't help women. But I feel like the main movement is for equality with both. I know many male and female feminists who agree with my concerns for men that I've mentioned.

[SomeOtherGuy]

@ChaosKilledTheDinos You and many other feminists. Though most the people who are radical MRAs (They won't tell you they are, but their beliefs align) will probably ignore your claim or try to convince you that that's totally impossible.
However I applaud you for caring about these issues, as they affect both men and women and belong in feminism.

[ComDom]

@ChaosKilledTheDinos @SomeOtherGuy Wow the cultural delusion is strong with you guys. Feminism is an OPINION. It IS open-ended by definition. The Feminists who want to wipe out all men have an opinion that is JUST as valid as yours. It's one big fallacy.

[astatine]

it is not entirely about feminism, but it is about her choice. it is completely her choice if she wants to do any of those. who are we to question her?

[ComDom]

@astatine "it is completely her choice if she wants to do any of those. who are we to question her?"

Okay see now we have a disagreement again. I would question a male or female sleeping around outside of marriage. What happened to morality? What you're saying right there is one of my problems with Feminism.

[astatine]

@ComDom it is between husband and wife. it is not our duty to determine how moral somebody is, man OR woman

[singlebee]

Take Owner - so that means you support her when she says she wants to sleep outside her marriage?

Who are we to question her.. maybe for her nobody.. But im the end she doesn't need to put that on YouTube and teach the women including teenage girls that its ok to sleep out of your marriage...

She should keep her bullshit to herself and do whatever she wants

[ComDom]

@astatine it is between husband and wife. it is not our duty to determine how moral somebody is, man OR woman

First off morality is subjective. Secondly who's duty is it? Should all women cheat on their husbands? Why even get married at all? I'm actually really confused right now. One of the reasons Eastern women seemed appealing was not thinking this way but I'm beginning to think I may have been mistaken.

[astatine]

i don't support infidelity, @ComDom , i definitely don't. but we don't know their circumstances, why they got married, if they even loved each other or not (in many families, even now inter-caste marriages are looked down upon) about the sexuality (many gay men get married to straight women to avoid being judged. gay marriages are banned in india). many can't even get divorced for many reasons, main reason being the stigma attached to it.
that being said, it is wrong for US to question their choices. if a man cheats on her spouse, the only person who deserves an explanation is the spouse. or vice versa
women in the east are still like that. that is why the video was greatly criticised equally by women.

again, i don't support infidelity, because i will never get married to the person i don't love. and i don't lie to people i love.
but i don't support the idea of questioning the people who do. it is their life. they are answerable to only their spouse.

[ComDom]

@astatine I don't even know where to start. I'll have to claim ignorance on some of this. But I think marriage should be voluntary along with sex. I'm iffy on gay marriage for a multitude of reasons. I guess I have a problem with a culture romanticizing infidelity as that video appears to do. I guess I just caution you to be careful of what comes out of the Feminist camp... they say and do some pretty wacky stuff.

[astatine]

@ComDom i will be careful

[PhiOmega]

Whether you're a Democrat, republican, feminist all depends on your stance on your local governments policy

Sine anti-feminist here would be feminist in india

I think it's awesome that u fight for those rights but that's not what feminism is in the states

Here there was a story over two college students at a prestigious campus,
one male one female, the female and male were both drunk and making out at a party, the female pursued the male and found his dorm room looking for sex, TWO differnt people had walked in on them, even asking if everything was good and all was ok
when word got out she got angry and had the male expelled, it was against campus policy for ine student to have sex with another under the influence, they over looked the fact that she did this and destroyed his academic career

Feminism here isn't the same,
but it's obvious your desire is just

[astatine]

i am glad you understand. people seem to have blacklisted the word "feminism" because it is used conveniently by some to suit their needs. but i strive to achieve equality, empowerment and independence for women where it is very much needed.

[PhiOmega]

U deserve it, and you think about the future generations of women after you, you will make things better 4 them

[astatine]

i hope i do...
and it helps to have people like you too...

[PhiOmega]

Thanks

[SomeOtherGuy]

There is a major issue with U. S. double standards. Are they feminists fault? Barely.

A lot of these double-standards are rooted in old, patriarchal* beliefs. Even before feminism, it was unheard of for a woman to physically abuse a man. Harmful, divisive gender roles have also existed long before feminism. These roles are much more limiting to women. Men committing adultery (by today's standards) and exercising promiscuity was normal. For women, it was lethal. There was no such thing as a woman raping a male before feminism. No longer is that true.

Feminism illuminated these issues. Brought them to the forefront. Perhaps unexpectedly. Now we as a society must deal with them. Feminists are taking responsibility in fixing these new issues. So are MRM. It'd be nice if they both stopped pointing fingers though.

*I actually hate to use this word, because it infers some sort of active "conspiracy" rather than what it really is. An archaic social structure that's passively perpetuated.

[PhiOmega]

@SomeOtherGuy

That's nice but this isn't the 1st time a good cause has been hijacked to advance a wicked agenda

Locally, where i live, there are no feminist i would back

Maybe you'd say "well those aren't actually feminist" well they are here

There's other just causes i can back, I'm sorry but right now I'm not a feminist, not because I'm against necessarily what u stated, but because I'm in opposition to what's in my face

[ComDom]

@SomeOtherGuy A lot of these double-standards are rooted in old, patriarchal* beliefs.

I knew it... Indoctrination. You sneaky little... mmm. Where did you hear this garbage from?

[SomeOtherGuy]

No, I would say those are feminists. The same feminists as myself and a lot of the men and women here? No. These bad feminists are separatist. I prefer New Feminism and Egalitarian Feminism.
I actually detest the Separatist, just like you, and wish they'd practice some altruism and actually be egalitarian and inclusive.

It's good you have causes. If you find that these separatists feminists are in your face, call them out for what they are, misandrists that support separatist feminism, or "Feminazis." Let them know they're ruining feminism. Just don't lump the good ones in with the bad. You'll miss out on meeting some good people with a misunderstood label.

[SomeOtherGuy]

Also, as a note, I currently use the term patriarchal not to mean male dominated society, but rather a hyper-masculine society with exclusive hierarchies.

ALA The violent and aggressive Queen Mary I and her father King Henry VIII coupled with the exclusive hierarchy of the British Aristocracy.

[PhiOmega]

Yea, i won't pretend their actions reflect the whole @SomeOtherGuy

Egalitarianism is something i can definitely respect