I can give a real life story about privilege from my own life. I was born in 1989 in south eastern PA. My father is a retired state trooper now and my mother an art teacher. I went to public schools for a bit in one of the shittiest districts and due to political religious reasons I was forced into christian schools. My mom had to work their to curve the tuitions. Because of this I have a gap in my education and failed horribly because certain subjects piggyback off each other and I was in advanced classes and didn't understand anything. I spent hours with a tutor and getting help and I still "wasn't trying hard enough". In high school I worked part time, bought my first car a 94 honda accord. Then after realizing my parents limitations and making me the scapegoat for thier shitty decision making and them complaining they couldn't take of me I joined the air force at 19, got my GI bill, got out at age 25 and my AA is in criminal justice. I work part time and pay all my bills, I scrap by every month...
Then we have my friend Jake, his dad has a doctorate in Chemistry, his mom a masters in Biology. His dad worked for a big chemical company, got laid off and teaches at temple. Because of this him and his sister got FREE college. Also him and his sister were home schooled K-12. Jakes parents bought him a car, he works but they pay for all his bills. He has a MBA in history. He got to take his masters program in the UK. I asked him how he planned to afford it, he said "my parents are paying for it!". He is now working on a doctorate in history... When I went overseas I paid for everything myself and what made it worse my family even the extended ones would hit me up for money all the time because "Military guys get paid so much". My first year in the air force I got 800$ every two weeks... That is a story of someone with a privileged life and me someone who had to work for it. Me and him constantly butt heads because he can't relate to struggling at all and assumes things about lower class people
I strongly agree but I don't like the word choice "privilege" so much. Maybe "ignorance" would be more fitting. For example I have been born almost completely blind and throughout my life, I've had experiences where people accused me of malingering. I've had to listen to things like "oh come on, it can't be that hard, don't be so whiny". Hearing this kind of stuff from people who have absolutely no clue about the things I've went through can be very hurtful. I have a couple of very painful memories where I remember telling my parents or my girlfriend about something that happened to me and saying "I wish person xy could just for one day be in my shoes and see with my eyes."
The reason why privilege is not a very good word choice is because not everyone who is unaffected is automatically an ignorant asshole. For example my girlfriend never knew a disabled person before she met me but she's incredibly sweet, caring and understanding about it. So the problem is more that SOME people are ignorant idiots with a severe lack of human empathy.
Strongly agree. Most privileged people are completely unaware of their own privileges, because they're so used to them that they don't even notice them. You often hear people disagree with racism/sexism because they claim that they've "never experienced/seen something like it" and therefore it "doesn't exist", or that "they personally don't think they've ever benefited from their privilege". They refuse to understand that they practically live in a bubble, and that of course they're not going to think they benefit from their privilege because it's something that happens so actively that they're used to it. For instance, I'm never going to understand what it's like to be black because I'm white. I don't experience the things black people go through, nor am I probably as informed about their issues as a black person is, because it's not something that gets brought up much in my day-to-day life. However, that does not mean I get to dismiss the struggles black people face because they're black. In fact, it just means that I have to educate myself even more and MAKE SURE I'm aware of their struggles, what I can do to help from a privileged standpoint, and to keep making sure that I'm not being ignorant. This of course applies to all people, all minorities and all privileges/lack thereof.
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Just an example, I am a white female and of course I see that I have privileges that say, women of color don't. I know its a clear problem but i don't think I will ever fully understand the struggles of a woman of color BECAUSE I am white. I'm not experiencing it first hand, so I will never have the full impact. I can see its a problem and want to stand with them but when a woman of color points out that I don't see the whole picture, I believe them. And the important part is when they tell me what I'm not experiencing, I listen.
I'm honestly not too sure if I disagree or agree with this one. I can say that it might be ignorance more than privilege. Personally, I think people know issues are going on with other people who don't have the lives that us as Westerners have, so they just ignore them or don't care.
In an abstract sense, what you are describing is perhaps myopic, but I would not call it privilege. As the term is applied, it is one of those labels that gets thrown around to discount anyone who disagrees with your position: You're a homophobe, or you don't see because of white privilege.
I'm sure all the SJW's will tell you what you want to hear but for me: NO SALE.
I totally disagree because if I don't have something someone else does, it doesn't mean they are privileged. The guy in the picture is clueless about what privilege means. Since the guy is a Black Lives Matters person, he's clueless about a lot of things! Does me having a car that costs $5,000 more than yours make me privileged? No, it means I could afford a little more expensive car than you can. That's all it means. If I worked at a job that pays more than your job, am I privileged? No, it means I'm qualified for a better job. People like the Black Lives Matter folks think that if you have more, there is something wrong with it. Maybe all those idiots who marched and said "kill the pigs" should get jobs and make themselves better. All this PC stuff is just that, stuff. It has no value. So that I don't get a ton of hate messages, I think ALL lives matter regardless of race. And those that want to "kill the pigs" should go to another country of their choice to live the way they want to. As far as I'm concerned, those who want our police killed should never call the terrible police when they need help. Why would anyone who hates them need to call them?
I disagree. I know that every individual faces their own share of adversity given their specific circumstances. I faced mine as a mixed person, especially when I first set foot in the U. S. and repeatedly got the whole, "Go back to your own country" thing. I even had teachers who mimicked my Japanese mannerisms in an attempt to poke fun at how I spoke and how I often bowed and kept my eyes down. It didn't help that I couldn't speak English very well starting out and also given that the little English I knew originally was British English, not American English.
I overcame a lot of adversity there thanks to perhaps one privilege: I received my early schooling in Japan. If I had one major privilege going for me, it was that. There we learned a work ethic that boiled down to keeping your head down and working hard. So I did that. Instead of being proud and rebellious and keeping my chin up, I kept my head down and worked hard.
While I maintained a 4.0 GPA in my university, I developed and published a new algorithm for computer graphics that began to be applied throughout the film industry. After that I had job offers coming up the ass. I was able to auction off my starting career to the highest bidder. I never even had to apply for a job let alone write a resume.
If someone can do the same thing I did and innovate a technique that changes the face of their industry (example: a new graphics algorithm that supersedes mine) and find that they can't share the same career success because they're female or black or Hispanic or whatever, then I might begin to believe in the notion of privileged classes of people. Yet that seems like an incredibly unrealistic scenario: these R&D fields highly benefit from a meritocratic approach.
Until then I believe in studying hard, working hard, and ultimately in raising children who prioritize these things above all else so that they can enjoy the fruits of their labor as adults.
In my case my American side of the family was poor, from rural West Virginia. My father's side had a struggling kimono business which failed and went bankrupt. My parents divorced, partly due to the business failures, when I was quite young.
I had to bounce back and forth between parents until my teenage years where I started to spend my time exclusively in the U. S. with my single mother working two jobs, only to lose her car to a boyfriend who just immediately left our apartment and took it without saying a word. It was reported stolen and turned up abandoned and broken down halfway across the country.
I had my share of difficulty but none of this stopped me from working hard in school and competing to become the very best at what I did. I've never gotten the impression that the people who most complain about privilege put in the same kind of effort to rise to the highest level of skill in their field. If I did, it would be a more convincing argument.
I totally get what you mean and have a lot of respect for your work attitude. I used to be very similar throughout my school career. One point where I disagree is that I believe there are also cases that can't be compensated with merit. It might be a bit of a stereotypical example but let's take the single mom who was left by her husband. Surely she can work hard and many single moms do that... but it's just not that easy. She'll still be at a significant disadvantage. Or let's take the young black man who gets treated differently by the police than white men in the US. I think one of the most hurtful things about racism is that there's little you can do against it. Some people will hate you no matter how hard you try to prove yourself equal to them.
Maybe it would also be helpful to not call this whole thing "privilege". It's a bad word choice. I think it's more like... people who haven't gone through your struggles often lack an understanding for your personal situation.
@BlueCoyote Agreed and one thing that might surprise you is that even though I'm kind of a hardcore opportunist who believes more in striving for equality of opportunities more than outcome, I'm actually a determinist with an engineering mindset to human behavior. I don't believe in free will.
I don't believe that people choose to be poor or choose to be criminals or choose to be uneducated in the hard, free will sense of the word. I think they have no choice given all the environmental variables at play. And from my standpoint that actually garners a lot of sympathy on my end and a desire to start influencing and changing the environment for a better outcome where more people have a good chance to succeed.
Where I tend to disagree with these protests is that they tend to be very, very divisive in nature instead of unifying. A lot of civil rights movements these days tend to apply that "you're with us or against us" mindset, and I think that only tends to make things worse.
Great response, I couldn't agree more :-). I once read a very interesting analogy by Immanuel Kant who didn't believe in free will either. He invented the story of man who leaves his office at the end of his work day in order to go home. As the man is walking through the empty streets of his town in a pensive mood, he suddenly thinks: "I can do anything I want!" Then he thinks about all the "free choices" he has that he never thought about before. "I could turn around and go back to work. Or I could go to a bar and get really drunk. I could rob a bank or find a young lover or climb the church tower and jump to my death. Or I could simply walk out of the city gates, move far away and start a completely new life." Despite his excitement, the man eventually decides "But I think I'm just gonna go home and have dinner with my wife." I love this analogy because it illustrates how free will might exist as a theoretical concept but in our actual every-day life, it cannot possibly exist.
I disagree with that statement. If I'm an expert skier then I might think that skiing down a mountain is not a problem whereas someone else might see it as a big problem. That doesn't make me privileged, that just means that I've spent the time and put in the effort learning to ski. Similarly, advanced mathematics might not be a problem for me, because I've studied and learned.
The definition of the word 'problem' is all important. Is a problem something that you suffer from or a challenge that you face? If I am better able to face a challenge it may simply be because I have worked harder to face that challenge.
@goaded That's an assumption. Maybe I rented the skis and maybe the lessons were free. Maybe I borrowed the skis and my family member is an instructor. Or maybe I saved up for the skis and lessons while working day and night doing two or three different jobs. Effort and commitment is not the same as privilege. People who are always looking for the privilege of others are those who can't be fucked to make any effort themselves. They are always looking for reasons to fail rather than for ways to succeed.
Then you could afford to rent the skis, or you're privileged to have a family member as an instructor. If you've got to work two or three different jobs just to feed and house yourself, you don't have the opportunity to learn to ski. Privilege is getting to skip one or two or ten of the steps to get where you want to be.
@goaded Lmao, sure, if you want to define every single thing that we have in life as privilege then every single person on the planet is privileged. Anyone who has life is privileged.
If specified working two jobs, I didn't say what days and I didn't say that I would still be doing those two jobs at the point at which I was now skiing, nor did I specify that I couldn't take a vacation. This privilege thing is just bullshit. You have the privilege of buying into it, which you are doing. I have the privilege of being able to say fuck your privilege.
So, you do admit you're privileged, that's a start. The fact that you can imagine having two jobs and being able to save enough money to be able to stop working for a while, let alone learn to ski, shows that to be the case.
People whose only privilege is to have life are usually too busy keeping theirs to look down on the dead ones.
@goaded I see what you did there ;) Of course I am privileged, as is everyone. Everyone has some level of privilege over someone else and all of us have privilege over those who have lost their lives and over animals and insects. Privileged are we all, which is why the whole buzz around privilege is such bullshit. It is excuse making for those who can't see how blessed they are and can't just get off their ass and make what they can of their lives. Who ever said that life should be fair and balanced?
@kickme @super147 I'm all for saying that everyone should make the best of their opportunities, but it seems self-evident to me that society as a whole will do best if the opportunities are as equal as possible. Maybe the best natural mathematician in history is in the USA working for $8 an hour to make ends meet, whereas idiot sons of billionaires are running banks into the ground and losing people's savings.
but the best mathematician is not working for $8.0 an hour unless he is really dumb.
I'm short so I am at a disadvantage for many facets of life (sports, mating, employment). Where's my free stuff to compensate me paid for by everyone else?
@kickme Have you met any mathematicians? Not necessarily the best negotiators.
Apart from that, how would anyone know if they're a gifted mathematician, if they've never been educated past the bare legal minimum in a crappy school?
@goaded I'm an engineer, I know lots of them from work. By the way, your stereotyping them as bad negotiators. Aren't liberals against that?
In life and in business, you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. It's not privledge, it's life, which is unfair.
the most privledged people are the ones who had 2 poor parents who emphasized their education. These people will be well educated and unspoiled and will have learned a good work ethic and will be very successful because of these traits. I know from experience.
@kickme I didn't say all of them were bad negotiators, but I know I'm not great at it, and I'm sort-of mathematically minded (programmer). Point taken, though.
Your idea of the most privileged people doesn't take in to account the way the system works against them in the US, with legacy admissions which give a boost to children of alumni ("legacy admissions are practiced almost exclusively at American colleges and universities and are virtually unheard of in post-secondary institutions in other countries around the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_preferences ).
@goaded you will never run out of excuses as to why your situation is not your responsibility. Neither of my parents attended college. I was still able to earn a masters degree
@kickme My situation is just fine, thank you very much. I'm second generation university graduate (both my parents were engineers), and I've enjoyed working on software for various space projects. I worry about other people's situations, and think that society benefits when the playing field is level and people aren't excluded from succeeding just because of their circumstances. The but for the grace of God, and all that.
No, It's 100% bullshit. This entire "privilege" fad is such bullshit that whenever someone brings it up, I immediately write them off as clueless idiots.
Like that guy in the picture with the sign. A clueless idiot. I wouldn't listen to a thing he had to say. If he actually had something to say he'd say it. Instead he's throwing around meaningless bullshit. He's using the far too common tactic of using a charged word, with some kind of implied meaning, therefore he's right. That's not a valid argument. He presents no argument at all.
It's the same with all the other charged words that people like to throw around. If someone has a valid argument, then make it. Simply using a word with all kinds of loaded implications just makes them look stupid. This practice is becoming far too common.
If people think throwing words like that around help their cause, it's doesn't. It has just the opposite effect.
The problem with the use of priviledge isn't that there's something wrong with this definition or any other; the problem is that its definition is completely fluid. Its scope and effects grow and shrink depending on what a specific argument or dialogue calls for. Its a logical fallacy know as Motte and Bailey. An example would be the guy that says, "Religion isn't extreme. All I meant is that God is just the symbolic sum of the wonderful things around us. But you better bow down and worship him because you'll spend eternity in hell fire if you don't" From everything I've observed, the use of the word privilege exists to be able brand people with it in order to invalidate opinions (ad hominem). And what it means to have priviledge can be as extreme or bland and agreeable as necessary so that it can be applied to anyone.
It's all relative. I'm privileged compared to anyone born to poor parents, or people living in most of the rest of the world. Many people are privileged compared to me. It doesn't make me any less privileged. The point is that we should recognise when we are benefiting from our privilege and take steps to help others less privileged.
@goaded thank you helping to prove my point. If you want to argue that So-and-so faces issues on account of X, and that issue threatens the equality/legitimacy/basic morality of some system than we can debate it and I'd probably agree much of the time. I'm male and there are numerous examples of things women have to deal with that I don't and I'd be happy to discuss any one of those issues. But the problem comes when we try to take those issues and place them under an artificial term like priviledge.
What you just proposed is a reasonable and agreeable definition of priviledge. But many people utilize the word in a way that assigns universal blame for anyone priviledged and as justification to ignore anyone with that label. That usage is completely out of line with what you just proposed. So I'm in a position where I have to attack your reasonable definition or accept all the blame that comes with harsher usage. The use of the word is disingenuous and does nothing to remedy problems.
I thought the usual cry was "check your privilege!", which I think is OK, in that it's just asking you to mentally run through a list of privileges you have over the person talking and just listen to the people who don't have that privilege and don't dismiss what they say because it doesn't happen to you.
Examples being things like being afraid to walk to your parked car, having lower chances at a higher education because your school has no facilities or is falling down, etc.
You can't expect much sympathy for your complaints that your cleaning staff keep knocking the antique furniture with their vacuum cleaner from anyone who doesn't have a cleaning staff.
@goaded How you use the word privilege is pretty bland and agreeable. If that was how it was used universally I would have no complaints. But that is not how it is used universally and it seems that is our main point of disagreement. I see "check your priviledge" used more frequently to say, "you need to shut up, and since I'm not priviledged I don't need to justify my beliefs to you" rather than, "you should listen". I contend that is intentionally weaponized language. We frequently use priviledge now where we would have used advantages in the past because priviledge has a negative connotation. Which is why all people freak out if you call them priviledged. If you try and explain that their is female priviledge, people go nuts even though if priviledge is what you described they should have no problem admitting to some priviledges. It's an attempt to slander, which is why people say, "check your priviledge" instead of, "no one can relate to broken antique furniture, get a grip"
How is this for privilege? I had to work 2 jobs during college to afford to live. Meanwhile minorities were given free room and board for their entire stay. When I got out of college a potential employer told me during an interview that they were going to consider me because they had to hire a woman. My company gives preferential treatment to minorities simply because they are minorities. We are pressured to hire them at the expense of extremely more qualified and intelligent candidates. Who is privileged?
I'm a minority and I had the same issues you did. You can't apply your specific situation to everyone and generalize like that. But I didn't get my job because I was a minority because I never indicate it on my application. In fact, a lot of minorities don't because it's believed we won't even get an interview if they know.
I don't support that type of treatment either. I will say this to you. If you are qualified for a position, you should take advantage of the current politically correct/discriminatory climate. Most companies are being pressured to accept unqualified candidates just to show that they aren't racist. A qualified minority applicant would be most welcome! Someday we'll get past all of this but for now just do your best. Thats what I do
It's no really a privilege, just an idea that being white isn't going to hurt your chances as much as being a different ethnicity or race would be. It's not like someone being white will be getting free shit. The difference is that being black may subconsciously (or consciously) keep you from being getting the same opportunities. That being said, I just don't give a shit... I don't get why white people get so defensive (I do and it's stupid) and I don't get why other races cling onto it as a crutch (I do and also think it's equally as stupid). People just need to stop bitching and move on and stop being so fucking butthurt every time they're made to feel uncomfortable in any sort of way
I think it's spot on. For instance most white people dont understand what white privilege is because they have it. To them white privilege is getting s Job or having money but what it really is, is how your race is seen. If your a young white male your parents probably never had to tell you to make sure you didn't walk home at night with your hood up vs s young black male who's parents probably told him repeatedly for his safety.
This "not a problem" has to come with some advantage that only you/your group/class/race/gender [and so on ] have over others. If there are no advantages, there are no privileges. Many things are not a problem for me but are a problem for others, but give me no advantage, therefore those things are not privileges.
well thats narcissism and a person can just be miserable and not give a shit without having any kind of benefit in life whosoever. people can also be privileged and feel the need t give back and be compassionate bc they hd it easer.. so i dont this they go hand in hand.
I don't like that definition since it would make literally everyone on earth considered privileged in some ways. I mean if you use that definition you could make outrageous and ridiculous arguments like, "starving kids in Africa are privileged because they don't have to worry about first world problems"
I think the current dictionary definition "a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group." is perfectly fine.
If that's privilege, then 99 percent of this generation are privileged. Because honestly, that's 99 percent of their mentalities. How many times do you try to express what you've PERSONALLY seen, or had happen to you, only to be told right to your face, "You're making that up!", or "That doesn't really happen." or "Well, I that hasn't happened to me, so there must be something wrong with you." How often huh? I get it ALL THE TIME.
The other thing is-I'm AMAZED at the amount of people (almost always young), who think that privilege (or not), can ONLY be measured by race, smh... perhaps maybe they'd prefer to be special autistics, or with down syndrome, or homeless in Michigan for 10 years w/o running hot water or a building anyone will let you be inside when it's -20 outside (and not once in a while-TWENTY FOUR-SEVEN)... the very things they take for granted EVERY DAY. Many of those same people I see complaining daily about it-have Air Jordans on, an Iphone, wearing brand name clothes, a roof over their head, warm food to eat each day, and a hot shower daily. Yet, people think THAT'S more underprivileged than the examples I just outlined? Yeah, lolol... ok. I don't see any of the complainers volunteering to sleep on a park bench in Boston in Jan!
That's accurate... So many people don't agree which is really unsettling. We all live in certain groups (whether ethnically, socially or situationally) and we have been conditioned over ages to not consider any group besides ours... that is a root of much suffering
A privilege is something that is given to someone based neither in fairness or necessity.
Say the right to drive is a privilege while access to clean water should be a basic right. Universal healthcare is a privilege while access to medicine should be a right.
Meh. Privilege then could also be relative to mundane matters such as having better soil in the garden compared to your neighbor. He can't grow good vegetables because his soil is shit. You, on the other hand, grow lots and lots of delicious vegetables because your soil isn't a problem. #soilprivilege
Flawed logic. So anyone who doesn't care about a lack of religion in parts of the U. S. is privileged? I mean, it's not a problem to some of them, right?
So who anyone who doesn' think abortion is a problem in America is privileged because the problem doesn't directly impact them?
So anyone who doesn't see the infringement of Second Amendment Rights as a problem is privileged because they don't own guns?
What "problems" America confronts is different for different people. Just because they don't see them as problems doesn't mean that they are "privileged."
Usually the most privileged people are college kids because either the have inherited privilege from either their parents hardwork or parents inherited privilege or they've been privileged to get a scholarship. Anyone else must forgo college or work hard to pay for it themselves.
I disagree. That's what it means to be selfish, oblivious, or single-minded. A person could be privileged and still care about other people's problems.
Privilege is when your life is easier because of the status, family and country you were born into. I am a very privileged person, but I still think world hunger is a problem, even if I don't suffer from it.
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