Thoughts?
So for example lets say cosmetic surgery advanced to the point where every trait could be modified in a safe reliable way, would you oppose that too or do you only oppose those things being controlled genetically?
I would agree it needs to be approached carefully but that doesn't mean we shouldn't approach it at all. It's not like all variations in trait are equally beneficial. Lots of people suffer and are treated poorly for those variations. Do future generations really need to suffer just for the sake of diversity?
Well I wasn't suggesting we shouldn't approach it at all, I was pointing out that you shouldn't screw with a system unless your more then 100% certain of what every single thing does and even then if their is nothing wrong you should probably not meddle with it. Hence me stating that for genetic disorders sure, but designer babies no and in both cases you should be very very careful because you don't know what could happen (and if a mutation that has negative consequences gets passed on it will get harder and harder to stop the spread of it (in particular if its a recessive gene sort of thing or is only activated under specific circumstances).
As for "diversity", we are not talking about racial diversity but genetic diversity and that is quite literally the entire reason why we have an aversion to siblings and a taboo against incest because they do not have enough genetic diversity which means negative mutations get passed on far easier, ones that can be lethal for the next generation. I personally would hate to have to explain four generations from now why they are all dying because we thought it was so important that every one have x color of eyes and a six pack.
So like I said, when necessary to remove a mutation that would be lethal, debilating or what have you, fine under the circumstances that they are very very careful, otherwise we let nature play out exactly as it has been doing because after all, its a system that has managed to survive mass extinction after mass extinction, radical shifts in atmosphere radical shifts in temperature, diseases, changing enviroments etc. and is responsible for why humans and life in general is so adaptable and so resistent to death.
I am personally against cosmetic surgery, but I think its up to the individual. That however is not applicable to genetics because genetics can be inherited, that means its more along the lines of getting your child cosmetic surgery against their will rather then getting it for yourself.
My intended point of this wasn't necessarily genetics it was more about preventing people from having traits that make them disadvantaged. To me genetic engineering was one possible solution but since people seem hung up on that I am now proposing surgery to see if the sticking point is with modifying away undesirable characteristics vs the method through which it is done.
Well how does one define an "undesirable trait"? Their is a guy who is completely color blind (he quite literally doesn't see color of any kind, just black and white). He got a device that beeps when presented with a color, each beep corresponds to a different color. He now produces art based upon sound i. e. he paints using those beeps and he now hears color from years of using this device so he paints abstract paintings (very colorful) based upon famous speeches and such. We wouldn't have that if he fixed his condition.
Theodore Roosevelt was Asthmatic as a kid, had a lot of tragedy. However this also pushed him to embrace the, as he called it, "Strenuous life", which allowed him to overcome most of those "negative traits" of his child hood to become arguablly the most manly man in history. So would that have happened if he had gone the easy way?
A philosopher (who's name escapes me) had polio through out his entire body as a teenager. He was told he was going to die before the night was through so he asked his family to turn his bed to the window because if he was going to die he was going to die seeing the sunrise. He survived. Then they told him he would never regain functionality of his body and he would be bed ridden for life. So he forced himself to regain mobility in his arms and upper body. Then they told him he would never walk again, and well long story short he walked with a cane but he still walked. This shaped his entire philsophocal views and character without which all of his work would be nonexistent.
My point is struggle and weaknesses force us to look at things differently, function in ways that we would otherwise not do and from it learn incredible life lessons and develop incredible skills which then improve society as a whole. So getting rid of everything bad is in fact a "negative trait", some times you need those things to develop and learn and grow both individually but also as a species (I mean most of our understanding of genetics and the brain for instance come from defects and mutations that screw things up).
So we definitley should deal with the ones that are going to be debilitating to the point of non functionality but we should be careful not to meddle to much otherwise we may in fact do more harm then good.
@Bandit74 - specific physical traits that make people "disadvantaged". So in essence eradicate minority skin tones as that is a predominant factor of disadvantageous situations. Sure you're not Hilter reborn? Your ideology, after all, would make him very proud what when it runs akin to the superior "Aryan" race.
@SomeBlondeChick Were the hell did you get that from? Also are you seriously stating that different skin colors are "disadvantaged"? Sounds a bit racist on your part not his.
@SomeBlondeChick
Honestly I was not even thinking of skin color when saying that. I am talking more in terms of things like height, facial structure, intelligence etc.
I think the traits that are desirable would still be desirable there just wouldn't be any special treatment/privilege for possessing those traits as they would be the default as you put it. For example it's desirable to have two eyes but nobody really gets special treatment for it because it's the norm and what most people have.
-"What do you mean by society knowing what biological flaws look like?"
I would imagine if we had such a precise understanding and control over genetics we could probably account for whatever flaws you are concerned with.
-"How do we value individuality?"
Yeah, there would be less individuality for sure but I don't think we'd necessarily all look exactly the same. Just certain traits that we collectively find undesirable would disappear for example short stature in men. And is individuality so important that it justifies the suffering and mistreatment of people who were just unlucky with the cards they were delt?
Yeah they are unique but I think most would happily give that uniqueness to not be disadvantaged. I think you would too if you didn't have the traits you currently have.
-"Does that cause some type of mental trauma?"
Like I mentioned in my previous point people already experience mental trauma based on the variation that exists. I find it hard to imagine that fixing those inequalities would result in more mental trauma than what already exists.
-"Does this destroy the institution of marriage? "
How would it destroy marriage, if anything I would imagine it helps it as it would push more emphasis on personality compatibility rather than looks since a higher percentage of people would pass the attractiveness threshold.
All that being said I think tea-spaghetti made a good point about genetics being only half the equation for a lot of traits. So perhaps in the realm of physical traits we'd be more successful advancing cosmetic surgery than genetic engineering.
I don't know, I think a lot of what we find desirable is deeply ingrained in us and society just reflects back what we already like.
What value is there in uniqueness if it only serves to restrict your options and lead to you being disproportionately mocked and viewed as less than?
Why do the views of others matter? We need to celebrate and embrace individuality, not give into a one sighted, narrow societal view and imposition
Most people do care about how others view them and how others view you affects how they treat you. I don't think you can just make it not matter.
I think those who fall within the ideal range of characteristics will always be privileged whether it's socially, sexually, romantically, economically etc and the further you deviate from that range the more disadvantaged you will be.
I'm sorry, I just don't believe we will ever have a word where someone who falls within the ideal range doesn't have significant advantages over those who deviate from that ideal. I truly think it is more realistic to just allow everyone to fall in the ideal range than it is to eliminate the concept of the ideal range. I would suspect that even you probably have bias whether it's socially, sexually, or romantically towards those who fall within what is conventionally considered desirable.
That's literally just submitting to society and letting ourselves be shaped by marketing techniques that only seek to further capitalism
Do you think it's marketing that influences what we find attractive and that without it what we consider desirable would be evenly distributed among all possible traits?
Without it there'd be a stronger emphasis on beauty is in the eye of the beholder, with it currently all we see is a cookie cutter ideal thrown in our faces
Without it do you think the people who are currently considered ugly would have the same sex appeal as the people who are currently considered hot?
And what about things like intelligence or inheritable deases? Wouldn't it not be beneficial to control for those?
No, but everyone would be deemed considerably more attractive than they are currently because there is no ideal to compare to.
If you control everything then what's natural?
I just find that hard to believe. I think it's more likely that the media just shows us what we already like and even without it our preferences would still be the same.
Depends on how you define the word natural and not being natural isn't necessarily bad.
Well with the growth of media and technology, grows the industry of makeup, plastic surgery and insecurities. That tells you something.
Never said that, but that's like a fake world. What happened to celebrating our differences?
I'll meet you in the middle. I think what the media shows us as ideal is genuinely what we collectively find most desirable ie women wouldn't suddenly prefer short fat guys over tall fit ones if "the media" suddenly disappeared. However, social media, advertising, tv, movies, online dating etc probably skews our perceptions of what is average. Not just with filters, makeup, photoshop but also accessiblity. Before technology you would only really be compared to and have the ability to date within your local community but now we are compared to and can interact with the best looking from all over the world.
Still I think pandoras box is opened and that it's easier/more realistic to just let everyone have the traits we innately prefer.
Not really fake, the people born through genetic engineering would still have real biological bones, skin tissue etc. Not like we're making them with synthetic materials. Differences are not bad and even if genetic engineering were to become a thing there would still be differences just less. Like I don't think we'd all have the same hair and eye color, but chances are no one would choose to let their kid be born with the traits that most people find undesirable.
You met me in the middle, whilst I disagree with you I won't press. I think I've got my point across, and so have you.
Fair enough.
Thanks for being open minded instead of writing it off as Nazism like some other users
@Bandit74 - Most people do care about how others view them and how others view you affects how they treat you. I don't think you can just make it not matter.
No they don't. People with inferiority complexes actually do care what others think and that wouldn't change if they all looked like perfect clones of one another because Clone A could be better at singing, Clone B better at basketball & Clone C can't do shit.
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