Would you agree that an abortion of twins is a double homicide? (Page 2)
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No, it's a trip to the doctor's office and it's none of your business what happens there.
Ahh 3 questions in and already there's a contender for dumb but judgy question of the day.
answer the question if you aren't dumb
women who get abortions are the ones who should have been aborted.
No, that's you. Ideally, someone would have aborted you. The women who get abortions are fine. They're not hurting anyone except organisms who generally don't care that their existence ceases, and so it does no harm to them.
What if they are conjoined twins?
Of course not.
To be a victim of murder, you first have to be born...
So a killer could stab a pregnant woman in the womb and not be charged with murder if the unborn baby dies?
That's the way it should be. (*) Some states have differences of opinion.
====
(*) I don't say this callously. It's a fine point about a gray area that both science and the law aren't adequately able to define... when does life begin? And what qualifies as "important life".
For instance, if you pick your nose, you've just slaughtered thousands of living cells... Human cells. Your cells. Did you commit suicide? You killed "you" after all; should you be charged with thousands of counts of murder for picking your nose?
At what point does a clump of cells have meaning?
You asked about the pregnant woman being stabbed and that kills the fetus - I won't say baby because the baby is not born, so I use the medical term. If she is 8 months pregnant and the fetus is stabbed and killed, yes, that's terrible and maybe there should be some kind of charge... (Maybe there should be a dedicated killing of fetuses charge in the law.) But what if the stabbing kills an embryo or an unviable fetus? Meanwhile, what if the stabbing didn't hurt the baby at all, but, in reaction to it, the woman has a miscarriage?
I am not looking for answers to these questions, but I am raising them to illustrate that things are not nearly as black and white as people want them to be.
I think all of thoses can be blanketed the moment life is created. A soul never got the chance to experience earth. Nobody should have the choice to say no, there's options to give up their baby to a loving family.
1. "[the] moment life is created."
You don't know when that is because we can't even properly define what life __IS__.
2. A soul is one of two mutually exclusive things.
A) A soul is an incorporeal thing that does not exist in the physical universe. The problem with that is that a soul could not then be embedded into a body. Furthermore, the soul could not react with the body because the body is physical. But, If a soul could be embedded into a body, then...
B) A soul a physical thing subject to the laws of the physical universe. That's problematic because then the soul is not an independent entity.
>>> What I outlined about is something in philosophy called the Mind-Body Problem. I did not know that in Spring 1984 when I first wrote about it, but, as a physics major then, I wrote a paper titled "On Physical Determinism" on it that got an A. I also didn't realize it at the time, but I was using the Socratic Method which, in a way, I am doing here. You might be interested in the 2008 book "13 Things That Don't Make Sense" by Michael Brooks. In the book, it discusses some of these intractable problems such as the mind-body problem. Chapter 5: Life and Chapter 11: Free Will are relevant here.
But, I am going off on a tangent...
The mind-body problem is a currently unsolvable problem. In fact, it cannot be solved at all without a fundamental shift in our understanding of the nature of existence and the nature of scientific experimentation.
(more)
These fundamental problems - what is life and the mind-body problem - are at the heart of why reproductive law is in a quandary and so problematic.
We cannot possibly -... it is impossible... to know about souls and "life" in a way that is satisfactory from a legal or scientific perspective.
Furthermore, laws need to be able to be enforced and enforcement means being able to sense and measure things or events that happen within the physical universe.
This is why reproductive law now is in the way it currently is...
We can't measure souls, but we can measure things like biological processes and determine things like the viability or a fetus or if there's a fetal heartbeat etc.
So, any law involving fetuses has to be based using such measurable definitions.
And murder is an example of that: Per Black's Law Dictionary - the universal standard among the legal industry - murder requires the human to be born.
https://thelawdictionary.org/murder/
That was really unnecessary. You have totally understood a soul is waiting in line and now has the unfortunate reality that it could lose that opportunity because of a woman's selfish victim act. That woman herself was once waiting in line and was not entitled to it, she was given an opportunity to live on earth and dissapointed someone else. Being compassionate thinking of others before one considers their options is something that is lacking in this world. How would you like it if you were naturally selected to be a twin and your mother said no? Well you wouldn't be able to think because you were killed.
If a soul is really "waiting in line" for a human body to come along that is like a passenger at a bus stop waiting for a bus, so that soul can just wait for the next body to come along.
You'd like to think that but what if you were chosen at that exact second and you've only got just enough energy to travel to that fetus. You know stillborns are a real thing too, I imagine that was a soul who was met by an obstacle and ran out of time.
Look I am tired of this discussion because nothing of it is verifiable. It's like arguing about how man angels can dance on the head of a pin or how much pain does a man feel when giving birth to a unicorn.
The fact is that you cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a soul let alone one with the characteristic that you'd want it to have: free will.
Thus, I will let HAL-9000 speak for me as I mute this question.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x56O4G8VsiA
Stillborns are proof of souls or rather that one didn't have a soul. Goodluck and goodbye 🤣
that inability to experience earth could be seen as as much of a gift as a curse.
Until its outside of a womans body its not my problem.
If you're guy make sure you use a condom so you don't have to deal with abortion, child support, STDs, the new Texas law today and more. If someone is breathing on their own in the world by themself, of course it's homicide, but a 6 week fetus in Texas today is now a live person that can live by themself?
Even a born baby can't live by themself, sorry not understanding your point of view
It's not even a homicide in the first place. So Zero times Two equals Zero. No homicide is done.
I think it's better to have an abortion than to have a child and not take care of it.
you didn't answer the question
its better to have the child and put it up for adoption that snuff out it's life for the sake of convenience.
@t-8900 I disagree. I think it's better to "snuff out" the child than put it up for adoption. It loses nothing from being "snuffed out" because at the time of its "snuffing out" there is no one in existence being "Snuffed out" who cares about the fact that they're being snuffed out. Adoption, however, can potentially be harmful to the child if it goes into foster care rather than a good home.
@SamE86 Why not just give it up for adoption? As it is many people have to adopt babies from other countries, and at more expense, because there are not enough babies in the US to adopt.
@Halibut your comment makes my stomach turn. This is something pro lifers will never agree with under and circumstance
@t-8900 Well you need to accept that it should be legal. I don't care what you do yourself.
@Daniela1982 because adoption is typically the inferior option to abortion... unless you know there's a family that wants the child. Even then, yeah, a family gets a kid and they'll be happy... but there's also the question of, if fewer people had the option to adopt babies, might more older children toddlers and such and older, be adopted, rather than growing up in foster care?
Given that death cannot harm an organism that can't experience pain from it and that doesn't understand death, abortion before about 24 weeks appears to have no disadvantages, whereas giving birth and giving it up for adoption has potential disadvantages... and definite disadvantages for the mother, in the sense of the unpleasantness of giving birth.
@Halibut I don't need to accept shit. That's something you leftists can't seem to tolerate. Our will to not go along with every little bit of sick bullshit you want to push. It's wrong and the word is out on pushing late term abortion. You guys just want to keep pushing boundaries for the sake of it. It has nothing to do with the betterment of society
@t-8900 im not a fucking liberal. Fyi... If abortion becomes illegal then what happens if someone gets pregnant from a rape? Should she be forced to carry her attackers baby? Some of you people should have been aborted lol. Maybe you still can be lol. Maybe you are eligible for a really late term abortion 😂
I think i mentioned this before but looks like not in this threat. I believe rape and the case of it killing the mother are grounds for a legal abortion. But that's it imho. Unless the baby is going to have a miserable life from some horrible deformities. But I think a healthy baby created out of casual sex should not be murdered simply for the sake of convenience.
I don't know about any of that, but that's one hell of an outfit she has on!
My friend got abortion and it was twins. Doctor wanted more money because it’s more
Abortion is never homicide. Stop messing with women's bodies now.
Homicide, the killing of one human being by another. Homicide is a general term and may refer to a noncriminal act as well as the criminal act of murder.
Abortion is the killing of a human fetus.
Thanks for liking my comment and then taking that like back. Women have a say in their wombs and they can have an abortion unwanted brats.
No one's questioning that you don't have a say, course it's your body right, when you choose to have sex you know the risks. So if you don't want to get pregnant don't have sex.
I can have as much sex as I want. Or I may not be protected. I can even have an abortion. These are the most natural rights. Just dont like children. That is all.
you can get sterilised. This question is more so about the fact that this woman upon hearing she's carrying twins aborted.
yes, i saw it in your answers. I replied only by reading the title without seeing the video.
Men don't get a say although it's their sperm. Fortunately, marriage, cohabitation, sex and childbirth rates are at all time lows.
Here came the vile misogynist again. Your sperm must be rendered dysfunctional. You are a great danger to society. @iBeowulf
women who get abortions should have their eggs removed. They shouldn't have the right to children later. Once a killer, always a killer.
Men are the people who will have the last word about a woman's body. Now shut the fuck up, sperm bag.
South Brazil and Argentina have the largest populations of white people, to the tune of almost 80%. 🦒🍆🇺🇸
@t-8900 Abortion isn't murder. Abortion protects children, typically.
Guys, simps will justify murder of the innocent if a woman is the culprit.
@iBeowulf Men don't get a say in abortion because A: the women go through the physical hardship and B: at most, if the woman wanted to terminate the pregnancy and the man didn't, you'd have a tie. No matter how you look at it, giving men any power to determine whether or not an abortion happens makes zero sense whatsoever.
@iBeowulf I'm not a "simp" you incel. What I'm doing is called practicing common decency. You should probably try to figure out how that works. Women are not the cause of every problem you have. A lot of your problems are probably just you. Take a bath or something. I bet that'd help you get a date... although your personality can't be helping things either.
If you don't want any "unwanted brats" then don't have sex or get your tubes tied. A simple solution.
@Daneliela1982 you forget why they want abortion in the first place, they never take respons for anything. Even when they have murderers on trial they try to empathize with them. There's no reasoning with those this far gone.
@Daniela1982 No... it's not a simple solution, because of birth defects, which can't be predicted... and also, it's unnecessary to get one's tubes tied if onself just uses contraception or the morning after pill or, as an emergency backup option, an early abortion. Fetuses don't have the mental connections to experience pain until well into the pregnancy.
@t-8900 abortion is a way of taking responsibility. It's a path that typically leads to zero problems for anyone... unlike giving birth. If you give birth without wanting the child, that, at minimum, leads to problems for you... through the unpleasant birthing process, and possibly for other people too if the child doesn't get a good home.
As best I can determine, taxpayers subsidize roughly 24% of all abortion costs in the U. S. with 6.6% borne by federal taxpayers and the remaining 17.4% picked up by state taxpayers. Stop trying to pilfer other people's pockets because of neglect, sloth and irresponsibility. Women and soyboys gravitate toward socialism because they can't keep up in a meritocratic environment.
@Halibut , what kind of king are you? I want to kiss you on the forehead. Thanks for your sensible comments.
oppsoing women killing their babies is not misogyny.
Everything is misogyny or racism, because it pays to charge white men in court.
@iBeowulf in this case there's a lot of misogyny going on... real misogyny
Thanks you for your compliment.
you're welcome @Halibut
No because I don't believe abortion is murder
What do you think it is if a baby is killed?
It's a medical procudure
Were the mother and father killed too?
If the father couldn't stop her then he's spared but the mother's soul is owned by the devil now.
agree with you OP
Abortion isn't homicide.
Christians will hate this answer
@ItsMeItsMe1989 abort all you want. Eventually you will be burning in hell.. I don't care
I'm an agnostic jew
Did you know abortion isn't even mentioned in the bible, ie genesis
Did you know jews also dont believe in hell
I'm white, what if i decided to not reproduce, am i still "going to hell", in your words?
@ItsMeItsMe1989 if you don't impregnate someone then bow is it murder?
it doesn't matter if you believe in hell or not. The hell still exists.
Bible condemns murder. SO yet it is against abortion
@Милашка Hell exists because YOU want it to. Hell doesn't exist for ME
Did you know that every time you masturbate, you're killing sperm, so, you could essentially say that masturbating and not getting someone pregnant, is still murder. That's why republicucks don't want men, masturbating, and women using contraceptives, as well as men
No. It simply doesn't. THE BIBLE DOES NOT MENTION MURDER
Did you know the bible has been written over, and over... to fit peoples "narratives". Go back and look at Genesis, there is NO mention of abortion
ABORTION IS NOT MURDER
GET THE FUCK OVER IT, YOU FUCKING DOUCHEBAG
@ItsMeItsMe1989 why would I want it to exist?
I agree the girl in the clip is hot.
the fallen angels taught abortion
what do you think
IF you consider abortion, homicide.
Yeah I mean if the woman was told she's having twins and then suddenly a decided no then I think that's a homicide.
Not at all. Abortion is not murder.
i think this is why we men need to filter women out. You need to be honest up front about being pro-choice. For me a pro-choicer is not marriage material. that's my opinion on it. And likely you feel the same about pro-lifers. For me abortion is the one social hill I am willing to die on because imho it's the most heinous crime that has ever existed.
My great grandmother lost her life from a back alley abortion in Chicago. Had there been suitable clinics and drs to go to she would've survived
I feel bad for her if she got raped and then got pregnant. Otherwise imho I think it's karma tbh. Dont mess around if you can't accept the responsibility. that might sound horrible to you but completely reasonable to me. Imho if your willing to not only kill your own child but your own flesh and blood your just as bad as the Waffen SS in everyway.
Just bc you don't think it's right doesn't mean it shouldn't be available in a safe healthy environment for others who may not share your views
that rational doesn't work when innocent life is on the line. Imho if a woman is willing to have an abortion then the child she is carrying is by default more valuable than her.
@t-8900 That's about the most tragic statement I've ever seen... your lack of understanding. An organism cannot be harmed by death if it does not understand death and cannot feel pain from death. You're advocating that people bring people into the world in ways that harm both themselves and the people brought into the world, for no reason.
@Halibut don't even bother with this guy. He hates women and yet simultaneously wallows in victim mentality regarding the fact that he can't get a girlfriend. I could say more as I've had plenty of interactions with him here. I tried to be kind and understanding, but he is entrenched in his ways it seems. I suspect he just wants to control women's bodies since he has no access to them.
#Halibut I'm trying to learn from others on the subject. Having my world views changed slowly. Perhaps the way you put it there is a way I can accept it more. I dt think late term is right though. But I guess if it can't feel pain and fear yet then it's a different story. Thanks for breaking that down for me better.
@t-8900 Well that is surprising! Yeah of course, I don't think anyone is advocating for late term abortion. Which is also dangerous for the mother too. But the capacity to make a choice in the early stages is fundamental.
@NicoletteXO I'm really just trying to do the right thing. I'm sorry if you took what I did wrong. Also I've let go of religion because I recognized that it was bringing nothing but toxicity to myself. I've for so long tried to not be who I really am for fearing going to hell but I just can't love that way anymore and lie to myself
@NicoletteXO check your pms I sent you some messages
Unborn aren’t people.
So a mother or a killer can kill an unborn any time before it's born and it's not a murder?
The issue is bodily autonomy. If the fetus can survive on its own great. If not it’s the host body’s choice.
If not…how dare you kill a virus in your body. You serial killer.
Who created the idea of abortion and abortion pills? In China once upon a time parents weren't allowed to have more than 1 child and would abort if it's a girl. Abortion infringes natural selection.
I don't think bodily autonomy should have anything to do with it. That doesn't impact whether or not an abortion causes harm. The ability to experience pain does that, and perhaps other forms of suffering... which seemingly come about after 24 weeks or so, perhaps. I think that's the point at which abortion is capable of causing harm and therefore there is something resembling an argument for making it illegal. I still think we'd need it legal later, at minimum, for the sorts of birth defects that can lead to disadvantages that could be seen as countering the potential pain of the abortion though, and making the abortion lead to less unpleasantness than the birth defects would.
But i like your comment about the virus though... and I do admit that if the fetus can survive on its own, I think, tends to have to do with the legal aspects of things.
Natural selection sucks. Here's what natural selection is: get two groups of people to go out into the woods. one group wears red shirts. the other wears blue shirts. Have them cannibalize each other to avoid overpopulation. Nature sucks. Natural selection sucks. Everything natural sucks. It's in humanity's best interest, typically, to behave as unnaturally as possible.
@Halibut exactly backwards to me. Think of it as the govt mandating all children have the right to parents organs. Big no right?
@Halibut your knowledge of natural selection is off. This is how Darwin discovered it. The beaks of birds on one island were stronger than the beaks of birds on another. Because the trees were different. Over time the genes that better adapt to their environment win out.
Yes I’d agree lol
you shouldn't be afraid to speak your mind