What Are Masculine Traits?

[RolandCuthbert]

#men

#masculine

After many troubling conversations with a lot of guys here. I began to notice a pattern. So I wanted to create a thread to address a few things.

Apparently, many men at GaG cannot figure out how to define their masculinity independent of women. This creates a huge problem when it comes to understanding women's issues.

Because guys think, they are men only because of their relation to where women are in their lives and/or the amount of power they think women wield, etc. They can't even articulate what they think a man is supposed to stand for. They cannot voice an opinion on what traits and qualities go into being masculine.

Because of that, they can't seem to articulate goals and objectives they want to work towards as men. They can't clearly define the obstacles in their path. The only answer they can give is to blame feminism for their lack of power or for their inability to embrace their manhood. Which is quite disturbing.

So here is my list. Please understand. I am talking about men. Not boys, not jerks, etc.

1. Men treat everyone with respect.

Because of that we are respected.

2. Men are leaders, we are decision making engines.

3. Men move forward constantly. We plan and build.

4. Men are protectors and defenders of their family, friends, and community.

We also protect those who cannot protect themselves.

5. Men are proud...but stubborn much of the time.

6. Men cherish intelligence, reason, and logical thinking.

7. Men are not whiners nor complainers.

We usually just grin and bear it. Even when we are in great physical/emotional pain.

8. Men are serious people, but we can still laugh and have fun.

9. Men love to compete with each other.

10. Men do not like being forced to change.

But if change is reasonable, we will accept it.

11. Men are dependable. We are the rock in our relationships.

12. Men can fight for years with depression.

And then a simple smile from a woman can brighten our entire day.

13. Men don't give up. Our stubbornness drives us.

14. Men like sex.

Yes women, we are extremely attracted to your physical sexiness in all kinds wonderful, strange and bizarre ways. We are visual when it comes to sex. That's just the way it is.

15. Men do the dirty work.

We make the hard decisions. We do the the things no one else wants to because they are necessary.

16. Men think strategically.

We see problems as challenges to be overcome. They are opportunities!

17. Men are not the greatest students.

We don't really "learn" from others very well.

18. Men are not ashamed of being men.

We are not ashamed that we are sexually attracted to women. We are not ashamed of some of the bad traits we have. We can deal with the fact that we are not perfect and we try to become better human beings.

19. Men mature as they age.

They become wiser and less impulsive.

20. Men do not treat the people who are important to them just like everyone else.

This is especially important for women. If you are with a man who does not treat you like you are his most special person. Then you are not his most special person. Nor will you ever be. It is that simple.

21. Men are simple creatures.

We think + or -, left or right. We are binary. Even if that runs contrary to natural law.

22. Men are realists, but not so much that we become pessimists.

23. Men are visionary. We aspire to do great things.

I will allow anonymous for this take. So many folks have problems voicing their opinions on posts that are somewhat "controversial".

#feminism

#womensissues

[Onlythisone]

Great write up! I think women have the same issue with defining femininity. It's easier to see what you like and try to emulate it than it is to define something without drawing from anywhere.

Now only a man can choose what defines manhood for himself, but it seems that masculinity throughout culture has been defined by a man's ability to set guidelines and rules. His structure for his own existence.

By contrast femininity seems to be more illusive but more defined by how you treat others than by personal barriers, being gentle and kind, happy. But I think there is a disconnect for women because femininity is so elusive that sometimes it's easier to say "oh I like that masculine trait, I'll be that"

[RolandCuthbert]

This is absolutely brilliant comment. That's the whole point. Men have to define what a maleness means for ourselves. We have to figure that out on our own. We may not all agree on every trait. But you have to begin with some type of idea.

I think one of the problems with our discussions about equality between the sexes is that many men have thought of their maleness in relation to what they think feminine traits are. That is just problematic.

It is funny, your last comment is exactly what I would say about men. That's why so many men get offended about feminism. Women who are strong and empowered, somehow have stolen their strength and power, because both sexes could not possibly embody these traits.

[Onlythisone]

I think it comes from having a lack of respectable role models boys that don't have father's tend to default to images of men in power, without ever seeing what respect is how can someone gauge it's value.

Without these ideas of what good people look like it has devolved into "well I like toy trucks I must be a boy" "well I like playing dressup better I must be a girl" people have confused hobbies with gender because the guidelines have been so removed.

I think this started long before my generation and was purposefully enacted. Every coin is two sided, along with the movement against men that got speed in the 80's (though I think the free love period was the first sign) there was an image of women that was portrayed. It was the perfect marketing scheme, portray men as useless and that women have to do everything. Forcing women into the workforce made it reality, they now had to raise kids house and money, the gov made it cheaper to get rid of a man than keep him. Divide and conquer.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, I guess that is about right. We have whole generations of men who are raised by women. Boys don't have a solid role models of men to depend on. So most are pushed to media images, which is a horrible place to look.

But yeah, I kind of agree with most of what you say.

Thanks for posting!

[ElissaDido]

You basically listed everything I find attractive in a man!

[RolandCuthbert]

This take was one of the most confused takes in the history of takes.

People were here actually debating the very existence of masculine traits.

But thanks for that post.

[AdamThomas]

I think Jack Donovan explains it best in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-JWqHlKpU8

[RolandCuthbert]

That was awesome brother! Thank you for that!

[englisc]

I agree that Jack Donovan hit the nail on the head with his definition of masculinity. Have you read his book "The Way Of Men"? If not I highly recommend it. I don't think anybody could argue against the idea that a man is more masculine if he's strong, courageous, competent ans honourable.

I agree with you on women not being able to define masculinity. I always say that a woman trying to tell you how to be a man is like a vegan trying to tell you how best to cook a steak. They're clueless. They don't deserve a seat at the table when discussing masculinity.

I find it really strange how so many women, especially here on GAG, seem to want to encourage men to be less masculine and more soft. In real life most women don't want an effeminate man.

Even then I see a lot of women my age with sons the same age as my sons, and they treat them like they're little girls. They're obsessed with it too - buying them dolls, prams, girl toys. The most common question we're asked is what we would do if we caught our boys playing with make up or wearing a dress, and when we say we wouldn't allow it they tell us that's terrible. I don't get it at all. They're setting their sons up for failure.

As for the "men" who complain about feminism, most of them are pussies. They have a feminist mindset and tend to be obsessed with gender equality themselves. Their beef with feminism has more to do with feminists being hypocritical when it comes to equality, basically choosing equality when it suits them and not when it doesn't.

Basically these guys want a seat at the grievance table. You'll see these guys complain that nobody will take them seriously as victims and they want to play victim olympics with the feminists. They often complaon abiut the same shit feminists complain about, especially the standards of supposedly "toxic" masculinity and being expected to be a "real man". They're just as obsessed with encouraging men to be okay with being weak, emotional, crying, feeling sorry for themselves. They're completely unmasculine, that's why you won't get a proper answer from them.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah, I was quite surprised when I started this thread. Most of the guys here approached me and argued about the fact that masculine traits every existed. It was just weird. Then to see thread after thread, day after day about Feminism. Its like why even be concerned about it. Focus on what makes you a man, what are you proud of, what you would like to improve.

But they can't do that.

Makes me worry about the future.

[Chris_Humble]

I consider myself a manly man.
While I respect your opinion I disagree with a few points you brought up.
I disagree with:
"2. Men are leaders, we are decision making engines."

Not every man can be a leader and is a leader, the world isn't composed only of leaders. While leading is a desireable position for any man, leading itself isn't a necessary trait for being perceived as masculine/manly.
"8. Men are serious people, but we can still laugh and have fun."
Some manly men may a good amount of humour and joke around, this is just your personal opinion.
"5. Men are proud... but stubborn much of the time."
Again, that's just your personal opinion and not a defining trait.
"10. Men do not like being forced to change."
No one likes to be forced to change, so its doesn't define as masculine trait.
"14. Men like sex."
Every healthy person within a certain age likes to have sex, women too, so this doesn't define as manly trait.
"17. Men are not the greatest students."
I don't know how you came up with this, but I couldn't disagree more.
"19. Men mature as they age."
Anyone matures as they age. Time is the best teacher.
"20. Men do not treat the people who are important to them just like everyone else."
again... this applies to any normal person, regardless of sex.
"21. Men are simple creatures."
Your personal opinion again.

Your traits aren't bad, but they have too much of a personal flavour as to be used as universal masculine recognizer.

[Chris_Humble]

Now, what defines a masculine for me:

1. The ability to protect yourself and others.
2. Facing dangers and taking risks, not running away when there is a need to fight.
3. Staying calm and in control of your emotions at any moment.
4. Now this one is big: While a manly man does do an effort to look clean and good his 'beauty' is not of concern to him, at all. A masculine man is not allowed to be vain, as this is core feminine trait. A masculine man strives to be strong - physically, emotionally, mentally, and intellectually above all.
5. A manly man, doesn't take himself too serious and is no tryhard.
6. a masculine man has boundaries and will react accordingly if others overstep them.
7. A masculine man can say 'no'. He is no pushover.
8. A masculine man is not lazy, he is trying his best to strive, work hard and get better.
9. A masculine man is not a big talker, he walks the walk. this doesn't exclude that he may be a good talker.
10. A masculine man is neither arrogant nor humble

[Chris_Humble]

but selfconfident.

[RolandCuthbert]

The funny thing is that you can only tell me what masculine traits are not. You cannot tell me what masculine traits are.

Of course, this is my personal opinion.

What is your personal opinion? If you read the take, the issue is that many "men" here cannot talk about what traits they think go into manhood. Many here simply think they are defined by what they think women are supposed to be. . . or not be.

Maybe men need to have conversations like these and so they can have some thoughtful discussion about what makes them masculine. . . independent of what makes women feminine.

[RolandCuthbert]

Oh thanks for actually adding your idea about what are masculine traits. I won't spoil this by claiming what I think should or should not be on your list. I will commend you for being one of the few men here who actually thought about what masculine traits he thinks are valid. . . and listed them.

I hope more men look at your example and begin to think about their maleness differently. Hopefully, separate from any definition of womanhood.

[Chris_Humble]

11. A masculine man can be ruthless if need arises. His 'kindness' doesn't amount to weakness and foolishness. He will strike back accordingly, if others wish to harm.
12. A masculine doesn't question himself easily and constantly once he has made up his mind.
13. A manly man doesn't whine and complain, he doesn't bother others with his problems.
14. A manly man doesn't need a woman to have a good life, but is always willing to find one to share it with.
15. a manly man is loyal to people who are loyal to him.
16. A manly man has principles and integrity above all, even the law is under them.
17. A manly man is no coward.
18. a manly man speaks calmly, and slowly.
19. A manly man doesn't repeat himself.
20. A manly man can look people in the eye.
21. A manly man has his actions aligned with his values - he has integrity.
22. A manly man takes responsibility and doesn't blame things on others.
23. A manly man is no victim.

[Chris_Humble]

you are welcome brother, I do think you are right, that men don't talk enough about these nowadays anymore. That's why a lot of guys never grow up to know what they should believe in and work on, staying unhappy in consequence.

[Chris_Humble]

I would be interested if you disagree with some of my opinions and also why. Only when our beliefs are challenged, can we grow.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't know. I think it is more important to first get men to talk about these traits first. A debate or discussion as to what is valid or not can follow afterwards. But as you can see, I am having trouble just getting men at GaG to think about this topic. Especially the ones who complain about feminism.

[Chris_Humble]

Well a lot of men on this site aren't what I would consider manly, with all their whining and complaining.

[RolandCuthbert]

I agree.

[GracefulCharm]

Two things I disagree with in this post.

1. There are things a man can not respect in another.

These are things I don't respect in others:
I don't respect pedophiles, I don't respect those who take advantage of others due to their position. I don't respect people who dont keep their promises. I don't respect people who hurt others for their own self gain.

17. Men can learn good from others, it just depends on how good the teacher is. I've personally learned a lot from wise, old and powerful men in my life who I would call father figures.

[RolandCuthbert]

Uhm, okay. Two are the only two edits you would make?

[ShadezMcgee]

Great MyTake, man. A lot of what you said rings true and sometimes I find it hard to explain to others what defines masculinity and there are times where I wonder if I am truly acting like I should (referencing some of the points you made here).

This only reinforced my belief that I am masculine. Well simplified and enough to drive the point home.

[RolandCuthbert]

It was so weird to actually be debating with other men that they have to define what it means to be masculine. Even if it is only for themselves.

[Kiran04]

Men are also stoic. We separate emotion and reason so we can make informed decisions based on facts, not feelings.

Men are action oriented. We don't sit around thinking how great our lives would be with something. We go and find or make that something.

Men our tough. We can take a hit and keep coming, keep our soft spots hidden, and fight through the pain instead of surrendering to it.

[RolandCuthbert]

Agreed. I think there are points in my listing similar to yours. Feel free to list more.

Thanks!

[Volvagia]

False.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Volvagia So do you have any traits you would like to list?

[Kiran04]

@Volvagia Like a dragon would know.

[Volvagia]

well this dragon does know
Also, i bet you had to google that to figure that out

[Kiran04]

@Volvagia If you bet I cared enough to google, you'd be wrong. I just happened to know on hand.

[Volvagia]

ya u defs googled it

[The-Weeknd-0]

I will mount #feminism and make her submit. I am a male.

Who runs the world? Not girls.

Trump, Donld Trump. That's who runs the world.

Nice MyTake by the wsy.

[RolandCuthbert]

Well thanks for contributing.

[Unit1]

Especially true: 1, 14, 21

Sex 👩😍

Yes:
6, 10, 18, 22

To some degree true:
2, 3, 4, 8, 9, 13, 20, 23

Also I would strictly advise to beware of toxic masculinity. It is highly destructive and invisibly poisonous!!!

[RolandCuthbert]

Toxic feminism exists too. I don't think we have to worry about ourselves more or less than women worry about themselves.

[Unit1]

I agree.
Especially with toxic feminism aka feminazism. Seems like there are plenty enough of those, who got corrupted by toxic feminism-nazism. Yuck!
But you know... I'd say just be a man and be who you are ^^

[pickyourcliche]

"What are masculine traits" a fucking myth!
Everyone should have traits like respecting people for people and not using them. I don't like sex so I guess I'm not a real man, hey? This isn't a bad list of "what makes a person respectable and decent" but it's bullshit to suggest any of them are masculine qualities, and suggests that if someone isn't competitive and sexual he's not a real man. I've had enough of that in my life. Such expectations of "masculine" qualities leads to guys like me who doesn't share some of them feeling inadequate, and women who do share them being ostracised as manly. It's bullshit. Stop it.

[RolandCuthbert]

So there are no feminine qualities either?

Goodbye.

www.townandcountrymag.com/.../

[sketchy]

Bullshit. Everything listed is equally applicable to women.
Masculine traits are things like leaving the toilet seat up, falling asleep immediately after sex, or refusing to ask for directions when lost.

[RolandCuthbert]

Equally applicable? Like wanting to have sex with a woman and looking at women and being turned on by them?

Where do they get these guys?

[sketchy]

You know what I mean. Just replace every occurrence of the word "men" with "women", and vice versa, and every one of those statements remains equally valid (since we seem to be ignoring non-heteros here anyway).

[RolandCuthbert]

No, I don't know what you mean. I don't sit around feminist groups and shout out. . ."but men can do that tooooo!"

:D

That's hilarious now that I think about it.

I don't care what feminists think womanhood is or is about. I don't care if they think some traits are uniquely feminine.

I ain't a woman. I worry about male stuff. And if I state some trait that some people think is shared by some other group. That's cool. Men don't own traits. We are in this thread, trying to figure out what maleness means. . . and how we can be become better men.

[qwer3cdfsetg]

you sound like a beta male bitch>

[RolandCuthbert]

@qwer3cdfsetg Well, you can come and find out about how "beta" I am.

And we can both wear the pants in this house.

You just have wear yours around your ankles all the time, everyday!

Okay!!!

Haha!!

[qwer3cdfsetg]

id fucking enslave your bitch ass n make you call me daddy haah

[RolandCuthbert]

@qwer3cdfsetg You would be working like a slave that much is for certain. Just make sure my dinner is ready when I get to the crib.

Haha!!!

[Mr-Kabuki]

how perfect. its only masculine when its a bad thing

[RolandCuthbert]

@Mr-Kabuki Yep!

vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/.../Feminism.jpg

[IsenhowerJ]

Great take. I have to say that it made a lot of sense. It is tough to define masculinity and i think you did a good job defining it.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't know if I did a good job. But I am glad you think so. I just wanted to get everyone to think about what they think masculinity entails. Thanks for your comment!

[lovelyhoneybones]

Not being a little bitch.

You hit masculinity on the head though! Good job. :)

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Firstly, by nature of being men, everything you said is necessary dependent on a comparison to women.

Second, I don't think there's anything wrong with defining masculinity in relation to women because that's the entire point of it, women do the same thing just dialed up to 11.

The difference being that men *only* do it in direct comparison to women and otherwise would really have no issue with gender identity. To my mind they're generally more secure about it aside from *when wondering how women see them.* It's only to attract girls because girls care about that, otherwise guys wouldn't care.

[RolandCuthbert]

I don't understand your first statement at all. Which trait is in my list is defined in relation to women.

As yes, it is a bad thing to define yourself as a man based upon what you think women are supposed to be. That's how end up with men embodying non-masculine traits. As for women doing the same thing, that is another point I don't understand. Women do not do the same thing. Perhaps some women embody certain masculine traits. And that is the entire point. Just because some women like competition does not mean that all women are competitors or even want to be.

American society is certainly weird. We can empower women to be independent and give them the incentive to define themselves.

Yet, we can't do the same thing for men.

And men pay the price for that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMfyjTV5zbk

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Which trait is in my list is defined in relation to women."
Any trait in the list that has "men" in it.

"That's how end up with men embodying non-masculine traits."
Who gets to define them as non-masculine and is that even a problem if they are non-masculine?

"women doing the same thing"
They define themselves based on their femininity in contrast to masculinity, men do the reverse. It's basically the same thing.

"Just because some women like competition does not mean that all women are competitors or even want to be."
Women are just as competitive in their own way. There's nuance here. But whatever, not an important point, it doesn't matter either way.

"We can empower women to be independent and give them the incentive to define themselves."
That assume that it works out for the best.
Plus how can men define themselves if you're trying to do it for them here?

With the video, again I circle back to how are you defining it? Why is it implied that it's a bad thing to do if it's not

[RolandCuthbert]

"Any trait in the list that has "men" in it."

Again, that makes no sense. Your definition of male, simply becomes a creature who is not female. We are much more than that.

"Who gets to define them as non-masculine and is that even a problem if they are non-masculine?"

I am a man. I am not trying to be everything. I am not trying to be a woman and I am quite happy with that. As for who gets to decide what is masculine. Believe it or not, men do.

"They define themselves based on their femininity in contrast to masculinity, men do the reverse. It's basically the same thing."

They absolutely do not. There are plenty of women who say they don't even need men in their lives.

Here is your basic problem.

I am not trying to define men. I am trying to get men to define themselves. I think you just need to re-read the take. . .

maybe another dozen or times more. And stop trying to read into it. And you can stop with the passive aggressive approach. Just state what you mean.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"a creature who is not female"
Yep, that's fine. It you want to get into the neuroscience and talk about masculine brain structures then that sounds good. But when it comes to not just being male but being a "man" (often preceded by the word 'real') as in an identity then I think that's wasted thought when it isn't contrasted against the other side of the human coin; femininity and womanhood. Without a reference to women in the definition of "man" why would it be any different than just being a human or being an adult?

"We are much more than that."
Yes we are complex human beings, but when specifically talking about gender you can't define a gender without a second one to contrast it against so 'man' without 'woman' sounds nonsensical.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Believe it or not, men do."
So if I say I'm attracted to women and femininity -- and it's women who define those things then do they decide what I'm attracted to?
You decide who you are as an individual. We are male individuals fundamentally and where we go from there is up to us. Calling everything after that being 'manly' is useless without womanliness next to it, again, it would just be being human or an adult.

"There are plenty of women who say they don't even need men in their lives."
Even those woman are employing the contrast between men and women to define themselves *or* they have little use for gendered thinking outside of sexuality (which is what I'm suggesting we do).

"I am trying to get men to define themselves"
So if I reverse all the traits you listed, you'd be totally okay with how I've defined "man?"

[AllThatSweetJazz]

I don't think I'm being passive aggressive. I think I've been quite plain: I think your take is nonsensical. The only reason it makes sense to you is because you already have a preconceived notion about what a 'man' is -- you just gave 23 examples of preconceived notions you have about "being masculine" -- and having such notions really undermines the whole "let men define themselves" angle. Hence, nonsensical.

[RolandCuthbert]

You are tripping over yourself because of semantics. Are transsexuals women? Are gay men women? Are lesbian women men? I don't know about all the genders or sexual orientations out there. I don't even care. I am a man who is sexually attracted to women. And these are the traits I think define maleness. And my definition of me and my gender has to be done without any input or comparison to all of these different identities.

I am who I am. They are who they are. If there is no difference in traits that transsexuals have, lesbians have, gay men have, and me. . . then what is the point to even having an identity at all. Just stop using terms like men, women, transsex, or gay/lesbian.

Oh, and bisexuals. I guess that's a thing too.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yep, you can be a man and be attracted to a transex person or a gay man or a bisexual person or 15 other genders or sexual orientations. Just because you define yourself as a man, does not mean you are attracted to women.

I guess you problem is that you read my list as some absolute law, as though I have set down a standard that every man must adhere to. It's like watching an episode of Scooby-Doo. I never said my list was agreed to by every man. I created this list and asked men to contribute their thoughts. Women too, but it wasn't like their input was necessary.

And how are "those" women defining themselves, their obstacles, their goals with men in mind, when they say point blank, they don't need men. They get their sexual gratification elsewhere. They get their needs met outside of the social dynamic built upon male/female relations.

That's good. They should be allowed to do their thing. I only ask for the same freedoms for men.

[RolandCuthbert]

My take is a lot of things. But it isn't nonsensical. Your response is. Here you are. . . I would guess you are male. You have an opportunity here to describe what you think being a man is all about. Yet, you seek to debate me over the possibility of even undertaking this task.

Look around you. Besides a few posters, who challenges this idea?

And I bet you have never challenged women on their want or need to define womanhood. I will bet that you have never taken up this issue with feminists who try to tackle unique issues that women face or wish to define a struggle and goals for women.

You just did it here, because I am a man and I should not be permitted to.

Well, I don't accept your argument. Nor will I let you define what man can and can't do. We are free to talk about our uniqueness, our unique issues, and our hopes and goals.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Transsexuals can identity as what they want to be, they are doing by contrasting it to what they were and their sexuality. They're doing the same thing.
Gay men are using other men's attraction to them as a reference; they're not being women because they want to be attractive as men. They're doing the same thing.
Lesbian women are being women to be seen as women by women who like women... They're doing the same thing.
They're all contrasting with the other gender to define themselves in a particular way in the eyes of others and my point being that it's only necessary to do that in regard to sexuality -- or more broadly in regard to being seen a specfic way at times when gender/sex is relevent.

"what is the point to even having an identity at all"
They're descriptors about you. The point is to easily package information, like labels on a can, it tells you what's inside.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

If you're looking for things to aspire to then you can form an idealized character for yourself and aspire to be that. The problem here is that aspiring to be an ideal 'man' should be no different from aspiring to be an ideal human if you're trying to define it without women. That would be a semantic issue, small but valid. Yet your listed traits are clearly intented to pertain to *male* people; not just all humans. So it's not entirely a semantic issue, you're using terminology you've demonstrated as being specifically gendered while trying to define it as a concept independent of women i. e a gender-less concept. That makes no sense.

"Just because you define yourself as a man, does not mean you are attracted to women."
I don't think I said that. I certainly didn't mean that.

"absolute law"
No it's not that I saw it as absolute law, it's that the premise was flawed.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"I never said my list was agreed to by every man."
I didn't assume it was meant collectively, but if it's individualistic then why would it pertain to *men* and not all people as individuals?

"those women"
Like everyone else they either aren't that concerned with being "women" or "men" or they recognise their womanhood by understanding that there's another sex. Just because they don't "need" men in their life doesn't mean they don't recognise men's existence.

"They get their needs met..."
Those needs have nothing to do with being a 'man' or a 'woman' and consequently nothing to do with the take.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"what you think being a man is all about"
In a sense I am objecting to you undertaking the task because the premise is ridiculous. I could talk about being male or human or about masculine brain structure and how they influence overt behaviour, but being a *man with a definition independent from women* is the part where your idea broke. You glued a monkey to pinball machine and told me to swim to the moon with it, how do I engage myself with such a ridiculous task?

"Look around you"
Looks like half the people are saying it's "redundant" or that "women are like this too." Which is related to the point I'm trying to make; you're either talking about *all humans* or you're talking about *men as distinguished from women.* Talking about men as distinguished from women yet somehow not being distinguished by women is bananas.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"their want or need to define womanhood"
I'll say again what I've been saying the whole time. Outside of biology and sexuality it might as well be trying to define being human.

"struggle and goals for women"
Most of those are just human struggles and goals. The ones that are specifically women's struggles are rooted in sexuality or biology and certainly aren't defined independantly of men.

"You just did it here, because I am a man and I should not be permitted to."
What is this in reference to?

"talk about our uniqueness"
Wow, just wow... unique from what? From women or from each other? Being unique from women is being defined by women and being unique from each other is being defined as individuals of all stripes (and genders) not as men. Listen to yourself.

[RolandCuthbert]

You posted me like five times. You are kind of excited. Calm down a bit.

The problem is?

Dude, you can't define my problems for me. You can't do anything for me. And if my definition of manhood has caused this big an issue for you. . . then it is you who have serious problems. I suggest you attend to them.

As for your issues with semantics, I cannot help you. My definition of manhood is not dependent up how women define womanhood. I don't care what traits they claim. That is their affair.

[RolandCuthbert]

Dude, I don't know what transsexuals are doing. And unless you are one, I would suggest not speaking for them. That is some confusing stuff to me. And again, I don't care what traits they claim in common with men, with women or with whatever. It does not involve me.

Same thing goes for gay men or lesbian women. I simply used them to debunk your silly point that this is a binary situation. It isn't. In fact, it never has been.

[RolandCuthbert]

"I didn't assume it was meant collectively, but if it's individualistic then why would it pertain to *men* and not all people as individuals?"

What in the world are you talking about? Is this an episode of Scooby Doo?

You don't know that I do not have the power to define manhood for every man? You are not being serious. So why should I take you seriously?

media.giphy.com/media/cQhWrl1CrGD04/giphy.gif

[AllThatSweetJazz]

Was just trying to address everything.

"you can't define my problems for me"
You apparently can't define your problem either. If the words you're using are logically consistent then they must have some cryptic meaning that you won't share for them to make sense.

"manhood is not dependent up how women define womanhood"
My god, here you go again. You're straw-manning, it's like you're replying to someone else. I didn't say that, nor did I accept your terminology in the first place for you to make a statement like that. You *still* haven't defined your terms.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"I don't know what transsexuals are doing"
I think you do otherwise you literally couldn't use the word.
'Transsexual people experience a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally associated with, their assigned sex, and desire to permanently transition to the gender with which they identify.' It's in the definition of the term, so how do you not know what's going on? It doesn't need to involve you actively, it necessarily involves the concept of "man," not you.

"I simply used them to debunk your"
You debunked yourself, I used them to support my argument.

"binary situation"
My whole point from the start was that you made it binary, when you shouldn't have.

"What in the world are you talking about?"
So you're just going to dodge? It's really hard to get anymore basic to explain this to you without sacrificing meaning... Why did you use the word man for something that isn't about men?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You don't know that I do not have the power to define manhood for every man?"
Who really knows. But the important thing to note is that --whether or not you can -- in this case you didn't.

"So why should I take you seriously?"
I'm giving you an opportunity to clarify your original assertion for any who read this far. Also, back at you, you haven't tried to clarify your position, only repeat the same rhetoric as a challenge to statements I didn't make. Basically I'm asking you what 2+2 equals and you said orange. I'm flabbergasted and bewildered at the unyielding goliath that is your folly.

[RolandCuthbert]

Dude, the only problem here is your inability to understand written English. I am not going to debate simple pronouns such as I, you, and me. That stuff was decided when I was in kindergarten. I have not looked back in 40 years.

I can't teach you basic English. If you can't agree on what words like "I" mean, the conversation is over.

I put together a list of what I thought were traits to be associated with manhood.

Then you took a gigantic dump in your pants and blamed me.

I am not having that. You need to get a mop, a diaper, and some baby powder and clean this stuff up. That ain't my mess down there.

See ya!

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"I am not going to debate simple pronouns such as I, you, and me"
Those terms are not being questioned.
See that again you addressed something I didn't even say? Surely you see that?

"what I thought were traits to be associated with manhood."
That wasn't what I took issue with, it was claiming to define it separately from women.

I'm trying to explain to you that you took a dump in your pants and that it's an impressive feat of foolishness to genuinely believe it was me. That's the level of nonsense you're operating on.

Can't help but notice that you again you've dodged any making or addressing any argument of substance. Masking your floundering won't stop you from floundering. But if you're intent on conceding then cool.

[RolandCuthbert]

The recent weirdness with feminism as GaG has prompted me to revive this now famous "take".

You claim that you took issue with the fact that I claimed it was defined separately from women. This is just a discussion about syntax as this point. So it really isn't a debate. Men must define what is masculine for themselves independent of input from women.

This idea has caused you a major brain fart.

I left off because I felt i had more important discussions to be had. You were being severely obtuse. But we need to get this take back on the front page. Because you challenged that very notion.

So let's get back at it, shall we?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Syntax"
It's a discussion about semantics, not syntax.

"Men must define what is masculine for themselves independent of input from women"
Sorry but it's just a nonsensical notion. You could define your own traits yourself as an individual, but then that also only matters to that individual. It could be defined socially, but that requires everyone that interacts with it to naturally define it through a tacit understanding. But you've decided that men as a collective decide what this abstract concept is. Why men? Why is it only for them to define? What if I said no you don't define my masculinity? Well shit, now 'men as a class' aren't in consensus, what do? What if I said I want women's insight? What if I said it was all moot anyway? It just looks to me like you've got this romantisised notion about men embracing masculinity but it's effectively just wistful language that sounds nice but doesn't make any practical sense.

[RolandCuthbert]

"the arrangement of words and phrases to create well-formed sentences in a language."

Nah, I think it is syntax. Had I arranged my words differently, you claim you would not have had an issue.

We can debate about that too, if you wish. It doesn't matter to me at this point. This take needs more exposure.

Uhm. . . you said; But you've decided that men as a collective decide what this abstract concept is. Why men?

Abstract? Are you saying that human beings generally have no idea of what masculine traits are? Interesting.

And yes, we are men, we should define what we think masculine traits are. I mean, these traits are the ones commonly associated with being male, right? That is the agreed upon definition.

At least I hope you are using the same dictionary that I am.

websters. com

"What if I said no you don't define my masculinity?"

Well, I cannot compel you to accept my list, right? That's why I asked other men to list these traits for themselves.

[RolandCuthbert]

Like I told you before, you can get hung up on syntax. We can be here for the next hundred years, looking up definitions of words, checking grammar, being obtuse, etc. Its cool.

"What if I said I want women's insight?"

Then go get a woman's insight. Maybe she can tell you about how to be a real man.

"What if I said it was all moot anyway? It just looks to me like you've got this romantisised notion about men embracing masculinity but it's effectively just wistful language that sounds nice but doesn't make any practical sense."

Talk about nonsensical. So the idea of masculine traits isn't practical.

:D

[AllThatSweetJazz]

The syntax is fine, we're talking about the semantics of 'masculinity' here.

"abstract"
What's masculinity made out of? Nothing. It's not matter, it's an idea, which means it's an abstract object, that's all abstract means.

"we are men"
Are we though? With masculinity up in the air how can you define a man in the first place to talk about what it means? How do you ask men what a man is when we're re-evaluating the tools we use to identify who we can ask that question to in the first place?

"ones commonly associated with being male"
Well if we're deciding what they are then no, they can apparently be whatever we want them to be -- and commonly associated by who? I think it's implicit that it includes everyone, so it sounds like women also contribute to the definition.

"That is the agreed upon definition."
So it's already agreed upon apparently? What's the problem then?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"That's why I asked other men to list these traits for themselves."
These are people defining what it means to them as individuals, it is not a group negotiation, that is on a personal level. There's also the social level where it exists between people and this includes everyone, not just men.

"Maybe she can tell you about how to be a real man"
Oh so suddenly we are listening to what women think now? Interesting.

"masculine traits isn't practical"
Only for identifying people's characteristics and in regard to one's sexuality. It's an aesthetic.
But that wasn't what I was saying anyway. I meant that the *way in which you want to define* masculinity makes no sense and thus isn't practical, not that identifying traits themselves is impractical.

[RolandCuthbert]

"The syntax is fine, we're talking about the semantics of 'masculinity' here."

You forgot what you had issue with. Its fine, we can skip this part.

The definition of abstract is not at issue. Your claim that masculinity does not apply in the real world is.

So I don't have to quote the rest of your post. Are you claiming that men do not exist? How do I define a man? Do you accept that there is a physical genetic description of maleness and that is different than being masculine? We have talked about this already. Is a transgender woman, masculine simply because she has male genitalia?

As for masculine traits, yes, you can decide whatever your think to be masculine for you. And if it runs contrary to what most men think is masculine in a given society, then you would be at odds with most men.

Ah definitions. After this post, it is clear you don't accept the definition in websters, correct? You have a different take on masculinity. Right? Please share.

[RolandCuthbert]

Right. Groups are made up of individuals. You can check that definition too. A group of people is generally considered to be made up of individual humans. I am in the male group. That fact does not take away from the reality of my being an individual also. But I am interested to understand your take on groups, individuals, and such.

Oh, I am pretty sure the group male does not include women. Well, at least not to the vast majority of men. But we can explore this with a survey I guess. We can start here at GaG.

No, I am not listening to women. If you think women can tell you about how to be masculine, go query them. I think I was pretty clear that I think that is wrong. I am not sure at this point how you could not understand that simple point.

You are saying that my claim that men have the right to define masculinity is nonsensical.

And that makes complete sense to you.

:D

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You forgot what you had issue with"
No, I didn't: Men defining masculinity irrespective of women is not a thing.

"Your claim that masculinity does not apply in the real world"
When did I say that? My point is that you can't compose it -- let alone apply it -- in the way that you're trying to.

"Are you claiming that men do not exist?"
I'm asking you. Doesn't matter if I think men exist or not, we're talking about what you're doing.

"physical genetic description of maleness"
So is it genetics or secondary sex characteristics that make a man? Except you're also trying to define what a man is based on personality, so do we know what a "man" is or not?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"different than being masculine"
Well that's a context thing, there's masculine brain structures for example, but also masculine behaviour. You're talking about behaviour and yes I can accept maleness and 'masculinity as an aesthetic' are different things. But these are relevant questions. Is genetic maleness what qualifies a man/guy/male/whatever-the-fuq to define the concept or what?

"Is a transgender woman, masculine simply because she has male genitalia?"
You tell me, it's your idea. Does a transgender person get to define what masculinity is?

"if it runs contrary to what most men think is masculine in a given society, then you would be at odds with most men."
Exactly, yet simultaneously you it's possible also not be at odds with most *people.*

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Ah definitions."
We necessarily can't accept a definition because you're insisting men should redefine it. Essentially, your premise is that we shouldn't accept the "accepted" definition. I think that's literally the only word in this discussion that we wouldn't rely on a dictionary to define, so... I suppose that's a yes.

"Groups are made up of individuals."
Yes, but that doesn't mean they are the same thing. More, specifically; you can make decisions as a group or as an individual and furthermore there's the issue of why that group gets to decide things instead of the individual or the grander group which that smaller group would be apart of. Why *that* specific box of people? Also the edges that box are somewhat blurred -- further complicating the issue.

"group male does not include women"
*furthermore there's the issue of why that group gets to decide things instead of the individual or the grander group which that smaller group would be apart of*

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"I think that is wrong. I am not sure at this point how you could not understand that simple point."
I understand perfectly well that you think it's wrong and that's where this started: I think *that* is wrong.

"You are saying that my claim that men have the right to define masculinity is nonsensical."
Correct.
Although more accurately: I would say that they can try to define it -- fine, be my guest, but they will be superseded by wider society just as you said that individual men would be at odds with the majority of men.

[RolandCuthbert]

It doesn't really matter. In the future, you will voice that same concern and I will remind you.

Apply masculinity? :D In what way am I trying to apply it. I listed traits I think are associated with masculinity.

Oh, I think men exist. Is there some statement I made that leads you to believe something to the contrary?

No, I am not trying to define men based upon personality. I am defining a maleness or masculinity based upon personality.

You don't accept that being masculine and the physical description of a male are two different things?

[RolandCuthbert]

I am not saying that genetic maleness means one should be queried for their views on masculinity. I would hope that you understand that transgender women don't identify as being men. Well, perhaps your point is that you know some that do. I am not sure at this point. You don't seem to have a comprehensive view on masculinity, how it is defined or something like that. You seem to argue from point to point, even though that leads to contradictions in your previously stated positions.

I said it isn't possible to be at odds with most people?

At this point, I have no idea of what you are even saying.

I have not changed one point of my stated position. Men should define what masculine traits are. And those who do not identify as being a man, should not.

[RolandCuthbert]

I insist that men should redefine it? That statement makes no sense. Did you read the definition of masculinity? I am not sure if you read my post or not. I said we should not accept the "accepted" definition?

Hmmm. . . are you talking to someone else? I am RolandCuthbert.

masculinity;

having qualities appropriate to or usually associated with a man

Uhm. . . right.

Groups are not individuals. I am in a group. But I am an individual. I am not sure how this isn't clear to you.

:D

I don't make decisions as a group. My group makes decisions as a group. I am one of many in that group. And no, this is not complicated when you understand social contexts. Since this something humans beings do almost from time they are born. Which is to create social standards. You do know that scientists believe. . . and they have quite a bit of evidence, that human beings are social animals?

Do you need me to forward some scientific materials?

[RolandCuthbert]

Superceded by the wider society? :D

So these men are unaware of what other men would say about masculinity?

Is that your point?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"you will voice that same concern and I will remind you"
Voice what concern? Remind me of what?

"In what way am I trying to apply it"
You literally just used the words: "Your claim that masculinity does not apply in the real world." It seemed implicit that you believe it is applied.

"Oh, I think men exist. Is there some statement I made that leads you to believe something to the contrary?"
I'm asking what that is to you and how that relates to masculinity -- since apparently men decide what it is... but at the same time 'men' are deciding what makes 'men' in the first place I guess. There's some circular craziness there that I would love get clarification on.

"I am defining a maleness or masculinity based upon personality."
So they're the same thing?
I'm asking who gets to decide what "masculinity based upon personality" is? Genetic males?
Is a man defined by his genetic maleness?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You don't accept that being masculine and the physical description of a male are two different things?"
I just said I did.
You're asking a question in response to it's answer...

"I would hope that you understand that transgender women don't identify as being men"
I'm trying to get you to clarify your position.
Also, I would hope you understand that there are transgender people that identify as men. So my question remains, does a transgender person get to define what masculinity is?

"a comprehensive view on masculinity"
I really don't and that's deliberate. It's like having a *comprehensive* view on what is good music or what are the most beautiful colours; it's fundamentally flawed. So to make an equivalent statement to show you how this all sounds: It's like you're telling me that only people who play music should get to decide what good music is while there's other people out there who enjoy music too.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"contradictions"
Sure, buddy. Whatever you say.

"I said it isn't possible to be at odds with most people?"
Good grief, how is that your takeaway? Whatever.
No, I'm wondering why I'm supposed to care about being at odds with people and why 'men' would take precedence over 'people,' assuming you care about that.
And if not, then why would the group's opinion matter?
Why go to any effort defining this thing?

"At this point, I have no idea of what you are even saying."
This is abundantly clear.

"I have not changed one point of my stated position"
Did I say that you did? I don't think your position is changing I just think you're conceptualization of this is flawed and that you're wrong.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Men should define what masculine traits are. And those who do not identify as being a man, should not."
Amazing, some useful info. So people who identify as a man get to decide? Okay, good to know, was that so hard?
Now, why is that?
I would love an explanation as to why they should or even *could* do that irrespective of women.

[RolandCuthbert]

Oh please do not fret. When it comes time I will remind you. Onward!

Yes, I do believe that masculinity is a term used in the real world. And that people have a concept of what it is. That may vary a bit from society to society, group to group, clan to clan, etc., etc. in terms of specifics.

But you accused me of "applying" some universal standard, when you already admit that I asked men to come here and comment on what they believe masculine traits to be.

Hmmm. . . do you know some men who don't know they are men? I think the vast majority of men are certain that they identify as being male. Do you know of a population of human beings on this planet that are unsure?

:D

Ah circular craziness? You don't it is crazy to question whether or not a man understands his belief in his own maleness.

Interesting.

And I told you that men get to decide what masculinity is. Do all "genetic males" claim to be men?

Haha!!!

[RolandCuthbert]

Well, you seem confused about it from post to post. I would rather not revisit this point multiple times.

Clarify my position? It is unclear to you that transgender women do not identify as males? There is a transgender woman here at GaG, do you wish to question her about her identity? We can do so. I am sure she would come here to comment. And she can talk about the opinion of her friends who are also transgender.

You keep asking me for my opinion. I can't decide what transgenders identify as. I only know that the ones I have talked to do not identify as being male. Nor do they care to contribute to a conversation of what masculine traits are or should be.

No this not a fair comparison. A better comparison would be an opinion on what is rock n' roll vs other kinds of music. You would be one of the few people on the planet unable to decide what rock n' roll really was. You would not have an opinion on the type of beat, origins, and instruments involved.

cont'd

[RolandCuthbert]

So this would be the silly conversation that followed;

1. Who can decide what rock n' roll music is?

2. That other artist over there disagrees with you.

3. Other people who do not perform rock n' roll music should have a say.

:D

[RolandCuthbert]

So hard? I said that at the very beginning. Either you are severely obtuse or you are pretending to be. I am not sure which one is worse. It is like watching an episode of "Scooby Doo".

Why is what? Why should men decide what masculine traits should be? Will this be another 40 posts or you not understanding and pointing out issues with syntax?

:D

Do I have to post the definition of masculinity again?

"possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men."

And I explained this in a previous post.

[RolandCuthbert]

I am not sure what happened to my earlier post.

But you keep asking about why it is so important that men define what is masculine independent of women and their definitions for themselves.

The issue is obvious.

Because to construct a definition of masculinity based upon the relationship that men have traditionally had with women is to build maleness upon a house of cards. Because women are evolving. And thus our relationship to them must evolve. And if men are totally slave to how women identify, how they define themselves, then women's rights will always be a problematic issue for both us and them. Because changing their identity becomes a threat to us, since we have no definition of masculinity that is not dependent upon the traditional subservient relationship they have had to us. As they gain more power and freedom, we perceive less because that impacts how we have traditionally defined ourselves.

Can you comprehend yet?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"I insist that men should redefine it?"
Umm... "Men should define what masculine traits are."

"Groups are not individuals. I am in a group. But I am an individual. I am not sure how this isn't clear to you."
It is clear to me and that does not represent what I was getting at.

What's 2+2?
Umm... Oranges.
That's you. That's how you sound.

My point, in part, was that you (you as in you-all; everyone in the group) can make decisions as a group or as an individual.

"social standards"
Again with just missing the point. I already made the statement that people do this, I don't see why would would think I was contesting the existence of social standards. What I was getting was that the group that actually makes this standard is not the one that you think makes it, i. e people, not men.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"So these men are unaware of what other men would say about masculinity?"
Wider society as in all people, e. g women. Women are people too. Also, why care about what guys think about masculinity? Why is it problematic to be at odds with them?
If anything it makes more sense to for them to pay attention to women's view on masculinity than other men. I believe I stated something to that effect in my original comment.

"applying"
So it does apply in the real world, but it's not 'applied'?
So we have these social standards, but don't apply them and are still suppose to care about defining them because?

"Do you know of a population of human beings on this planet that are unsure?"
Transgenders, genderfluids, people who literally label themselves as "unsure" or "questioning," agendered, non-binary, all that shit.
So the majority identify as male, now what? Why does that matter? Why do we care what the majority thinks if we're not applying a standard to people?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"You don't it is crazy to question whether or not a man understands his belief in his own maleness."
What even is this sentence?
If I'm reading that right... that presupposes their belief in "maleness" which here I think you mean masculinity. Why do they need a "belief in maleness" in the first place?

"And I told you that men get to decide what masculinity is. Do all "genetic males" claim to be men?"
It's for people who 'identify as males,' we've established that. Thumbs up. All g.

"It is unclear to you that transgender women do not identify as males?"
It appears unclear to you that I was referring to female-to-male transgendered people.

"masculine traits are or should be"
"Should" Now that's an interesting word to use. Careful now, wouldn't want to 'apply' a standard.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Rock and roll"
Okay, to keep with that analogy: You're asking *people* what rock and roll is, not the musicians, not the fans, *all people.*

1. Yes, who? Artists, fans, critics, academics, perhaps all people? I'm saying all people.

2. Which would be fine, except for some reason it "should" be something and it's unclear who is right.

3. I mean... shouldn't they? They have ears, they listen to music too, their music defines itself with a set of characteristics distinct from other genres; they rely on the contrast to define themselves.

So in regard to masculinity: Why is it that only men and not *all people* decide what "masculine traits are or should be"?

"Why should men decide what masculine traits should be?"
"issues with syntax"
The words make sense in that order, it's not the syntax. The reasoning is lacking.

[AllThatSweetJazz]

"Why should men decide what masculine traits should be?"
"issues with syntax"
The words make sense in that order, it's not the syntax. The reasoning is lacking.

"possession of the qualities traditionally associated with men." tells us that there's already this standard. But you were suggesting that men "cannot figure out how to define their masculinity independent of women" which implies they shouldn't do that and do something else; define it some other way -- "as men" apparently. So we should be aspiring to the traditional standard? Defining a new standard 'as men'? My position would be that we should just be ourselves, be good people.

I think that drawing self-worth from the impact you have on women is destructive, perhaps it needn't always be but in the present I think it is. Masculinity as an aesthetic would still be negotiated by everyone as a social construct, but the things you value in yourself or at least accept about yourself would not be dependent on their impact on women.

[RolandCuthbert]

Wait. . . your claim is that I say men should rewrite the dictionary? The dictionary says that masculinity are the qualities appropriate to or associated with a man. How is that rewriting the definition? The dictionary cannot define what those qualities are. . . because those qualities change over time and by social context.

Well, you don't seem to believe that 2+2 equals 4. So I am just explaining basic math. If you know basic math, please stop pretending that you do not.

A person can be a member of a group and an individual all at the same time. Why would you even question that?

Yes, groups can render decisions so can individuals. Eureka! You have discovered the human social condition!

Oh, you could have said that "people" create this standard weeks ago. But you played footsy up until now.

I disagree.

Men do. And men have to.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yeah, I don't really care what women have to say about masculinity. I care about what other men think because you know. . . they are men. And if the majority of men have an opinion on a trait, that I disagree with, I really want to be aware of that. I need to check to see if there is a good reason for me being out of step. I am not, by the way, recommending my process to you or to other men. But I would think most men feel peer pressure if they are out of step within their social context.

You didn't understand my statement on "applying", but never mind.

How are social standards not "applied"? That makes no sense.

Transgenders are uncertain if they are men or not? Like I said I can call the transgender woman here and she can tell you about her issues with this whole certainty and being a male, etc. Because men are sure they are men.

Oh not all people are men. But all men are people.

You know. . . that whole 2+2 thing.

[RolandCuthbert]

Sorry, typing on my phone.

"You don't think it is crazy to question whether or not a man understands his own beliefs with respect to his maleness?"

Most people have a belief about themselves. They tend to know if they think they are a man, woman, transgender, whatever. That is what I meant. I think you have confused yourself.

Why didn't you say you were referring to female-to-male? I have only used the phrase transgender women several times. Why didn't you just say transgender males?

And no, I don't accept that transgender males define masculinity. They aspire to be masculine. But that standard must exist for them first and only men can create it. I am not a supporter of LGBTQ in case you are asking.

I don't see the last quote you are referring to, thus I have no idea what you are talking about.

[RolandCuthbert]

1. ? Why would I ask "people" what rock n'roll was? I would ask rock n'roll artists what rock n'roll was. That makes no sense.

2. Wait. . . a rock n'roll artist. . . who is a creator of the music and accepted as being rock n' roll artist by other rock n' roll artists would not be a person who is right about what is rock n' roll? That is absurd.

3. No, they should not. How can a consumer of rock n'roll know better than a person who creates it? That is nonsensical.


Do you know anything about music? How to create it? Do you know in technical terms what makes rock n' roll different from other forms of music? Has rock n' roll evolved over time? How so? What changed?

Only the people who create it, understand it, lived it can speak to these questions. The average joe on the street can you what he hears on the radio and what he thinks. He is not responsible for determining the genre. The artists are. That is basic common sense.

[RolandCuthbert]

That isn't self-worth. That is self definition. And if the definition of yourself is dependent upon your perceived relationship with women, you are in trouble. Because women won't stay in the same place. They will evolve. You can't have a relationship where you feel masculine because women generally make less money than you. You can't feel masculine because women generally have less authority than men. You can't feel masculine based upon the power dynamic that has traditionally been in place between men and women.

You need your own definition of what being masculine is. And it has to make sense to you irrespective of the struggles of women. Because it is already known they will not be stationary. They are evolving. And their evolution should not be your concern. Your concern if you are man, should be about being a man.

[RolandCuthbert]

That's why the conversation is silly. Of course women can't tell men how to be men. They can't define what masculine traits are. Nor should they. Women are not superior to men. They can't define both genders. Men often times bemoan that women are attracted to "bad boys". How the hell are most women supposed to even know what they are attracted to? Most women who are attracted to these guys have no idea why they are attracted to them in the first place. They would claim, they like "nice" men who treat them well, and are faithful, etc.

And yet they end up with, whatever.

Men who are good with women are not consulting women and getting a list of the traits they are attracted to. They know what attracts women and they seek to embody those traits.

I don't understand why we are discussed this for so long, when this is basic common sense.

[Mr-Kabuki]

everytime someone describes masculine traits someone will always complain and say 'duh, wymons can do dat toou!"

[RolandCuthbert]

Haha!

Yeah. It like they feel insulted or something. It is funny, there are insecure men who spend time in feminist forums and thread whining about how women are doing this or that. And we are experiencing supposed feminists and "beta" males coming here whining about us.

It is like these men's and women's rights activist both want the same thing. For us to be genderless.

Weird stuff.

[HamAndCheese]

Great post! I think you really hit the nail on the head with your choices! I think you may want to consider adding the element of self sufficiency.

[RolandCuthbert]

Hey add as many as you wish. You can talk about more about what being a man means to you. Your role models and the men you looked up to as a child.

[gobsmacked3]

#24 Men never use labels to try to convey an image/identity for we are self-assured in our own being

I love your views- major Kudos

[RolandCuthbert]

Thank you! And thanks for that add. I agree.

[gobsmacked3]

More, thank you. GAG for the most is so cringe-worthy with its views. Particularly from 'boys'. It is a bastion of hope seeing a genuine take underpinned by valid points. Hopefully, people embrace the wisdom. Though, I think I am being delusional by hoping for this :P when most have their heads so far up their asses

[RolandCuthbert]

Thanks for that comment.

[Anonymous]

I'm lost, maybe because I'm stressed at work and I'm not thinking clearly atm. But you say men blame feminism for not being able to embrace their manhood. Then you made a list to illustrate what a man is, the only Major Problem is... these are all the stuff feminist shit on men for and say is "toxic masculinity " so this Take makes no sense.

[RolandCuthbert]

It makes absolute sense. Why do you care what feminists say about you?

Does it hurt so much?

If it does. . . maybe your problems are not about them. Got it?

[Opinion Owner]

No because there are no feminist in my country lol.

I was coming from a pov from a guy in the US/Canada/UK

[RolandCuthbert]

So why are you here?

[Opinion Owner]

Because its a free site for people all overy the world to share different views

[RolandCuthbert]

No, why are you in this take.

You don't have issues with feminism, even though you were complaining about it a moment ago. And you don't seem to have a list of masculine traits you wish to share with us.

Soooooooo?

[Opinion Owner]

I hope you're not 45 because you are one insecure guy judging from this Take and your replies 😂

[RolandCuthbert]

No, you are the child who simply wanted some attention.

Go back to pornhub.

Bye!

[Anonymous]

Nice take. Well said.

The female responses here do a good job of demonstrating that there are two general buckets of women in the world... those who appreciate and admire masculinity, and those who are threatened by it and therefore try to deny there are any specific traits that characterize masculinity versus femininity. @Volvagia

[Frank-Iero]

Kindness and empathy are the most masculine traits I have

[RolandCuthbert]

Perhaps.

:D

[Andrasnc]

''Masculine traits''? you mean stereotypes. "Men can fight for years with depression. And then a simple smile from a woman can brighten our entire day." "Men are simple creatures. We think + or -, left or right. We are binary. Even if that runs contrary to natural law." "Men do the dirty work. We make the hard decisions. We do the the things no one else wants to because they are necessary." so much BULLSHIT in so little space. what i understood is: men are programmable robots suppossed to have the same personality and act like the Terminator. I'm no sensitive man or anything but this list nauseated me.

[RolandCuthbert]

Yawn. As it has been said time and again in the thread. If you don't like my list, share your own.

[RolandCuthbert]

Anyone remember this mytake?

[Chris_Humble]

well, no one is forcing you to be a man.

[RolandCuthbert]

@Chris_Humble It is weird. And he was the standard type of poster in this thread. Angry about the list but unable to articulate what he thinks makes him a man.

[Water_Bottle]

Some of these are redundant and few humans have even half of these. Strategic thinkers? There would be no need for a Suicidal Security system if humans were strategic long-term thinkers.

So many flaws.

[RolandCuthbert]

So many flaws? Why not take a crack at talking about masculinity. Unlike you, I won't try to poke holes in what you think being a man is.

The conversation is important, because we have to find out what being male is. . . independent of where women are in our experience.

[Water_Bottle]

This conversation is important, I agree, but what makes it so is not our considerations but the forging of an actual image. I've spoken and implored more than once for men to give up these shackles and embrace something with tangible elements.

You want "decision machines"? You need an educated populace. Men are things that study philosophy and sciences alike and appreciate art. They're not defined by basal level considerations such as enjoying sex.

This conversation is important because no one is looking ahead. Speak on manhood like you were teaching your son and something will come of it, you wouldn't tell your son "you'd better enjoy sex!" would you? Or "just be a decision machine!" without explaining how.

But maybe I worry too much. I exist in a different continuum and am getting used to it.

[RolandCuthbert]

You want to have this debate about what being a man is. That is rather immature don't you think? The issue is to get these young cats to stop thinking that being a man is having women in a positions of insignificance in your space. Because too many men think feminism is a threat to their masculinity.

As for the sex thing, I for one, do not want my son to think it is wrong to look at women as sexual objects. He simply can't see them as only sexual objects. Nothing is wrong with him for getting that feeling when he sees a woman in a bikini. As long as he knows he still must be respectful and that woman is more than that. She may be someone's sister, their daughter or even mother. She might be a director in a firm, an entrepreneur, or mma fighter.

[Water_Bottle]

I don't want to debate. I actually want to see a real conversation about manhood as it is being redefined rather than a list of traits, half of which are obviously false, with no real backing. Why do you think the young are so scared? They have no foothold so when someone tells them "this is it!' They just go with it. But the lists are all different and many contradict.

"Respect everyone!" vs. "Respect is earned" is a common one. So men, not taught to think for themselves, scatter with no identities. This isn't up for debate, it is really happening, so this isn't about a list anymore. There's no empowerment and nothing to turn to for these men and they're not educated enough to stand on their own.

As for sex, this isn't a core element, and the whole spiel about how to see women isn't something that arises from some bestial state but from basic intuition. Seeing anyone as only an object is taught, not the norm, which ironically is also a "common lesson": Hypersexuality.

[RolandCuthbert]

How can you say you don't want to debate. You are here to convince me about what you think a man is. The fact is we have moved the needle by simply telling these men at GaG to define masculinity without women included in their definition.

You came and poked holes in my definition and you have made this conversation about that.

This conversation should be about how you disagree with me. . . and now. . . you present your list and your view. I would love to see it.

But you haven't gotten there yet.

The rest of your point devolves into a rant about my list. I am through defending my list. And until you develop some courage to talk about your definition of masculinity, I won't engage you.

I will leave you to talk to yourself.

[Water_Bottle]

I'm not here to convince you of anything. What your say is just not true. "Men are binary thinkers"? Well that's a problem isn't it? How can men have complex conversations if they are binary thinkers who essentially understand their own point of view and no others? If I wanted to debate the points I'd ask for proof of your opinion. I don't want proof of your opinion because I already know it makes no sense and there is no proof, it is mere heresay, junk that is actually taught to people as a means of identify!

And it pains me to tell you this but to think in binary is the opposite of being a "decision machine" or "strategic". To think in 0 & 1 is to damn yourself to failure and you can ask anyone who makes a decision more complex than "do I want a sandwich? Y/N" or "will I wear a shirt? Y/N".

This is what concerns me. The very root of the problem is that you took a made up list of things that contradict themselves and called it a "Man".

[Water_Bottle]

Meanwhile like so many you are just so fucking CERTAIN of yourself.

This is why nothing changes. It's terrifying how absolutely unbelievably senseless people WANT to be.

You aren't leaving me to talk to myself. You were never able to hold the conversation to begin with. You were already entrenched in your own beliefs.

[RolandCuthbert]

You want whine about the semantics of the post, not the spirit.

"Men are binary thinkers". Yes, we think more binary than woman. We are having a complex conversation now. But this conversation is "perfect" example. My statement is an approximation. But you are playing "Scooby Doo" and taking everything super literal. I am a binary guy in many situations. So in this situation, I am not trying to see shades of grey and compare every man in the world to every woman.

Did you know that women see more color detail than men? This is not a case of me rendering an opinion, this is objective scientific fact. We are different. Most people know we are different. So since we are, why not enjoy these differences and stop trying to make men into women and women into men?

www.smithsonianmag.com/.../

[RolandCuthbert]

You are just weird, weird person.

You are actually becoming emotional over this.

Look dude, you can be a woman if you want to.

:D

[Water_Bottle]

I am a very, very strange person. I live on a totally different plane.

I think that is as far as this needs to go.

[RolandCuthbert]

Don't leave me!

https://i.imgur.com/jCHZAVV.jpg

[Water_Bottle]

I'm writing the response MyTake.

Be patient.

[RolandCuthbert]

Where is my response mytake?