I'm so sorry you went through that. It's such a disgusting thing to do not to mention it's harassment
That’s gross. I’m sorry. I’m a guy and not all men do that. That’s really awful. I do know that people act differently in different work environments after I have held many random positions at different types of jobs. I also worked in a place that men also took part in those conversations. I never did, it honestly made me uncomfortable just hearing the disrespect. You had more balls than I did though. You tried to do something about it. I just ignored it and pressed on because I was afraid of the retaliation. Working for people like that isn’t worth it (I know it’s where you get your paycheck) but if you can do something about it, please do but if not, no job is worth being disrespected and degraded because men were never tought respect, feelings and to grow up. I hope you were able to find an awesome job with a better work environment! Also “boys will be boys” is just that. Boys turn into men and men don’t do that... that would require that a man knows right from wrong and how to respect someone. If they can’t, they never really grew up and must be stuck in the boy faze. Funny though... my teen and elementary school aged nephews don’t talk like that or treat woman disrespectfully. Product of some people’s environment maybe? How do we fix this moving forward for future generations?
[...] If we [attack] all that is good about what a man can be like a benevolent leader, devoted husband, able to take care of not only himself but protect others, then it is no wonder to me if we end up getting a lot of the opposite like the tyrannical leader, the unfaithful husband, ones who wallow in despair, and ones who exploit others. [...]
i am saying specifically about telling young boys that they should hide their emotions in order to seem tough
That's a misinterpretation of "man up" in my opinion mainly because it's no longer taught properly. The boys are probably watching Rambo and thinking that's what a man should be. The original idea was not about hiding emotions but about thinking in a way that focuses on solving the problem instead of making it worse. It does tend to encourage wiping away tears and getting back on our feet but not so much faulting the tears but the type of negativity that can lead to such despair like, "I'm worthless, I'm ugly, I'm stupid, I'm a loser, I'll never be good" -- this type. It's trying to encourage a more positive way of thinking like, "Stop dwelling on the negative. Try to think positive. You can do this!"
my dad is a victim of this matter. He was raised with this attitude and now he takes out all his suppressed emotions from his childhood on me and my mom. And then he cries about it.
From my standpoint, the idea has become superficial because the deeper aspects of masculinity are no longer taught. People don't teach things like this anymore in schools, and probably few parents as well:"Man is not affected by events, but by the view he takes of them." -- Epictetus"He is the most powerful who has power over himself." -- Seneca"We suffer more in imagination than in reality." -- SenecaInstead people watch television or something and probably see some character who looks tough, looks cool, and now they think that's how a man should be... they only see and mimic the superficial aspects and not the deep psychological aspects. Something like this is probably almost never, ever taught nowadays:"To be moved by anger is not manly, but courtesy and kindness, as they are more agreeable to human nature, so also are they more manly; and he who possesses these qualities possesses strength, nerves and courage, and not the man who is subject to fits of rage and discontent. The nearer one's mind is to freedom from anger, the nearer it is to strength, and as pain is a characteristic of weakness, so also is anger. For he who yields to pain and he who yields to anger, both are wounded and submit." -- Marcus Aurelius
From my standpoint, the classical values and ideals which overlapped to some degree with teachings form philosophies like Stoicism are very psychologically sound and potentially beneficial to both men and women alike. Some of them actually form the basis of psychotherapeutic techniques today. But they're much more complex than, "Boys don't cry," and don't even suggest such a thing. That's some kind of modern and misguided interpretation as I see it. I actually want to see the classical ideas taught more and revised to apply to both men and women because they can potentially counter a lot of toxicity.
If I murder, is my mums fault?
@kim45456 I think ultimately you have to be held accountable for it, but I do think it would be worth analyzing more effective parenting techniques and schooling techniques from what we can learn in criminology. There are common trends typically among violent criminals when it comes to their upbringing.
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i AM NOT saying that toxic masculinity is about men being toxic from their nature, I am saying that many men were brought up thinking it is a sign of vulnerability to show your emotions
Why is it called toxic masculinity then? Whut? Excuse my ignorace lol. In that case it is to an extent a vulnerability to show your emotions in some cases. Emotions should be controlled, but not hidden.
There is an actual medical term for what you are referencing too. It's called emotional suppression and is used in the thereputic vocabulary and is well defined. It is a psychological issue that causes people to instinctively hide all of their emotions in trigger cases.
@jgibsonian1986 agreed wholeheartedly. Those are two separate things.
Look it up. There are many thing to toxic masculinity and I am now refering to suppressing your emotions from a young age and being told to "man up"
As a feminist I can tell you that real feminists don't take anything away from anyone or try to make life harder for men. That's not what feminism stands for. However, men and boys still do things due to the pressure of wanting to be masculine such as gay bashing, degrading women, and bringing down other men who are more sensitive or artistic.
@Wheresthebooze I don't know if it's trulu toxic masculinity as much as it toxic personalities in general that are more pronounced in men. Women have the majority on some traits that aren't fully actualized.Men can often be far more possesive, insecure, and mature later than women. I think women have the majority of passive aggressive cxharacter traits- or at least IMHO
@i1T2daty Well more feminine boys don't behave or think like that. It also declines as you get older but sometimes it doesn't. It's obviously gotten better since women gained more power but that power has made a lot of men feel as if they need to act aggressively masculine to feel in control and establish a sense of dominance.
@Wheresthebooze 1. No true scotsman fallacy. Doesn't matter what YOU consider REAL feminists. Actions matter. And looking at the outspoken and influental feminists since the 60s, these actions have nothing to do with equality.2. Feminism isn't synonymous with womens rights. Someone can be active and campaign for womens rights, but still be against feminists. Feminism is a MOVEMENT to achieve THEIR vision of womens rights. It does not have a monopoly on it nore the moral highground of what defines it.3. The dictionary definition of feminism does NOT matter. Actions DO matter. If I say I am a pacifist and still punch you in the face - which of the two do you believe to be correct? Rhetorical question. We both know the answer.4. Yes, men and boys do want to be masculine. And the things you describe are unhealthy aspects of typical masculine traits. And thus perfectly in line with my argumentation. Gay-bashin, degrading women, behaving ovelry aggressively, etc. aren't what defines masculinity, but are what happens when masculinity doesn't develop in a healthy manner.
5. "feminine boys don't behave like that". Actually these kind of boys and men are the dangerous ones, because they never learned how to deal with their masculine traits and thus behave in ways often times unnatural to them. They are ticking timebombs and eventually implode (self-harm, suicide) or explode (hurting others). Sometimes a combinaton of both. Just read on the experiences of FtM transgender who strong the male drives actually are once they are put on hormones. Boys absolutely NEED to learn how to handle these. Comparing boys to girls, treating them as dysfunctional girls, shaming them for any sort of masculine traits and more are NOT the way to learn how to handle and valve it positively.6. The majority of violent men come from single mother households. Aka households where there are no proper male role models present so the boys can not learn how to valve their masculine drives.tl;dr - You reacted emotional to my statement rather than reading it, thinking about it, understanding it and then replying to it.
The fact that two guys disliked this opinion confirms the fact that toxic masculinity is very much a thing
Haha! Doesn’t it? That doesn’t even come close to the worst reaction I’ve gotten on here.
I don't think toxic masculinity exists. No boy is deliberadly taught to be aggressive, angry or violent. It comes from individual personality, not from something that we are all hear we must be.
No I am not one of the downvotes, but also they don't really prove anything. People can disagree with you and not have a toxic behavior.
It’s not deliberate. It comes from the media. If they see that behavior portrayed as masculine they’ll try to emulate it.
The thing about downvoting is that they go out of their way to do it, but can’t actually argue their point.
Beautiful answer sir
By the way, she blocked me - so much for her high ground talk 😂
@Inbox I'll try to talk to her, but if she decides to unblock you then just leave her alone. She's my friend, even if I don't always agree with her.
LOL you don't have to - I'm just saying about what happened
I don't think not being able to deal with your emotions to the point you want to throw yourself off a bridge has nothing to do with society telling me that I can't be open about my feelings. You need to have a troubled mind to get to that point.
Why don’t we hear so much about toxic femininity?I saw a study that women are more likely to bully other women online than men.
@BruceJender Women can be toxic too. This question was about toxic masculinity, so I tried to focus on that.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Statistically speaking men are more likely to die from suicide than women, because they lack much needed support systems and emotional management skills.
Statisticaly women also attempt suicide more often. Our success rate is due to the use of methods like a gun or hanging. Women try to cut themselves or ingest pills.I really don't want to make a competion out of this. "Let's see who loses it more often" no.I agree that men kill themselves out of lack of an escape for their emotional pain. I just don't put the blame on "toxic masculinity".
Many feminists take ot too far but most of us believe in equal rights and oppurtunities so🤷♀️
i refer to toxic masculinity as teaching young boys that they should hide their emotions. I believe they follow that into adulthood too
Yes a lot of people still do that
@Meropatrick first things first. LEARN HOW TO SPELL! JESUS! Also, women tend to go for guys who show their emotions around them. Oh, and stop telling people on the internet that they are ugly just because you have alow self esteem. OH and please before you say something to someone make sure you are ready for their response. Cause it might a hurt little
@Meropatrick AND YES YOU JUST GOT ROASTED FROM SOMEONE MUCH YOUNGER THAN YOU. You know who should get a life? You.
😂😂😂Whoever the Asker is deserves an award... @Meropatrick you got what you deserve, what you said was uncalled for.
@Ivansech BAHHAHAHAHAA HE DELETED THE COMMENT
I thought he would... What he said is really stupid
Can anyone reach me how to delete comment where is that option it could help alot😂
We are taught to have a good grip on our emotions yes. Why is that a toxic thing?
You think so narrow like WTF. Your wrong with the issue that you have because of your own narrow thought process you applied and created this issue for yourself that doesn't exist in reality. Because in reality not ALL MEN are more aggressive MEANING that is NOT A FACT. The Reality is EVERY SINGLE MAN'S AGGRESSIVENESS OR FEMINITY IS DIFFERENTIAL THAN ANOTHER. And every single person as in every single man's feelings matter to the degree of 100%. Open up more broad and look at it holographically than such narrowly. Because your ignoring all the men who are not aggressive this way or calling them a minority which is an insult either way. Backed by your statement you can still respect their feelings but you still chose to make them a minority this way which is not even true in its first place.
Please find me where I said all men are aggressive
Also, men who lack aggressiveness ARE a minority. It doesn't mean they are bad people or not valuable/loveable, but it is what it is. If starting faces offends you that is your personal problem.
You stated "men" that typically goes towards all men
And scientifically speaking there is no lackage of aggression in men vs women that's biggest reason why gender Equality exists today because of science proving it versus it didn't exist in history because women were taught to be less aggressive and you just like most women today are just carrying that thought still while science disapproves of it.
Tbh I'm not even gonna lie though with all feminism and etc trending I've seen more females being aggressive in life than men now that is something totally apart from this but legitimate truth reality I've witnessed 😂
I can agree with most of this. I don't personally believe that things like leadership, ambition, etc. are exclusive to males or that gossiping is exclusive to females. It's naive to box people in because of gender or associate people with certain traits just because they appear more traditionally masculine or feminine. Being a female who grew up being told that it was wrong to speak, act, or even sit a certain way, I'll be the first to tell you that men are not the only ones who are subjected to pressure when it comes to traditional gender roles. Where men are told it isn't okay to cry, women are told that they're defective if they aren't soft. With that said, there are a lot of women who call themselves feminists for bashing men when feminism is supposed to be about leveling the playing field. It isn't automatically a case of toxic masculinity if you happen to disagree with something a man says or does. The same thing goes with toxic femininity. A lot of these morals and values are pushed on us from the day we are born. But, the way I see it, you can either choose to be ignorant and belittle people for things like gender, race, sexuality, etc. or educate yourself on how to interact with human beings without seeing differences as targets.
@beanpaste I never said that any of those things are exclusive to one gender, I just stated that they're traits associated with masculinity.I agree that while a lot of the behavioral differences between men and women are based on biology, the society we grow up in plays a part as well. Culture didn't create gender norms, they just reinforce them. The fact that we are different is a good thing, as long as you don't judge someone else for taking the "wrong path".
Okay. I never said that you said any of those things. I was just adding my thoughts.
Funny how there are many females refuse to acknowledge that they live comfortably because men sacrifice our health, time, and money for them.
Give this lady an MHO 👏👏👏
Bro u 62 why do you even answer when you clearly dint know anything about the subject
"Men will be men" sounds like an excuse to be a grade A rapist geezer
I've forgotten more than you know. It's still made up bullshit. And the little white-knight here... what a joke. WEAK SAUCE. The feminists made up this masculinity bullshit. It is PURE BULLSHIT.
The assholes grow so big they develop gravity 🤣
Oh man scientific joke 😂😂
This is tremoundsly terrifyingly trending now days in especial more than ever which is the saddest thing ever for men. Unfortunately it is very extremely a sad true reality, that absolutely is a joke of thought shit deserving to exist.
you obviously were raised in the same manner. You were told not to show your emotions because you were a guy and now that has led you to the point of portraying the manner you were raised with as the ideal.
That's not what toxic masculinity is though lol it's not used to shut men up. It's just saying "Don't worry feminine dudes, just because you're not macho doesn't make you any less of a man." I think you are confused.
@HerLucidNightt Thats not how its used and you know it. I could care less what it means, the way its used is to silence men that want to be traditional masculine men. You can argue this all you want, but when you see commercials like the one Gillette did and it causes them to lose billions, you see how us men feel about terms like that. So no.. you're the one thats confused..
? you can literally google it dude lmao
and i don't argue on facts. that'd be a waste of time. it's not my fault if men were offended by a dumb commercial. Just shows how fucking sensitive they are.
@HerLucidNightt yeah i know i can.. and i can tell you how its been used when interacting with feminists *disagree with wage gap.. Toxic masculinity *Dont want to have sex with a tranny... Toxic masculinity *Believe Domestic violence is not a gendered issue... Toxic masculinity..In any case you are too closed minded to see anyone's side but yours so you can fuck right off.
This is the issue i have with these closed minded feminists.. "The definition is this google it" when its not used like that.. Same thing with feminism. It might mean equality for all but more often its used as a supremacy movement dont believe me... do not care.
feminists don't hate men. Female supremacists do. There's a difference between the two. But toxic masculinity is alive and well.
No, third wave feminism (that's where we are now) is almost entirely centered around the presupposition that men are inherently bad ("toxic"). To say that feminists don't hate men is inaccurate because one of the central tenets their ideology is this assumption.
@Wheresthebooze There's not. Just the level of pretending is present.
actually there, most men just don't want to admit or accept it because they (you) like playing the victim too much. Blaming things feminism in order to not have to take responsibility for yourself.
@Wheresthebooze This is just illogical thing to say. Where exactly did I ''took no responsibility'' or played the victim?
Does anybody else see the irony here? Feminism is literally an ideology founded upon placing the responsibility for women's problems on men while simultaneously playing the victim. Yet because I say feminism is flawed at it's core, I'm somehow the one who doesn't like responsibility and is playing a victim? No, we're not playing the victim not are we attempting to evade responsibility. We just think your ideology is inherently flawed and instead of explaining why it is or isn't, you state something completely unrelated.
@Throwaway4397 Last time I checked men were the one who made the laws that oppressed women up to the last 60 years, in turn causing for the formation of feminism.
@Throwaway4397 and I'm not a third wave feminist and I don't hate men, I'm part of what real feminism is: celebrating women and their achievements throughout history and fighting against injustices for all women, in all countries. I stand for helping women in need. That's what feminism is. It's not what some men say it is because they want it to be that in order to villainize females.
@Wheresthebooze What you miss, is the fact that those same laws oppressed men too. Not just women.
It was also men that passed the laws that gave women rights.
@Throwaway4397 After women started demanding and fighting for it and because the government knew they couldn't get away with it.
yes, I'm sure there are some ways the law hurts men too and you can blame feminism if you want but we don't make laws. The congress does. So blame them.
@Wheresthebooze Everybody was demanding rights, workers, farmers are all alike. There's nothing special about women, they were being abused after World War I was done, because they were still kept at a low pay and all.But with your logic, congress that was male dominant doesn't count because they had to do it, but you must thank a whole world war that millions of people have died in, because that was what driven women into workforce undeniably.
you're whole statement is bullshit. "women aren't special", right because oppression makes us special. Dude, talking to you is like talking to a wall, at least the wall doesn't talk and say dumb shit because it feels victimized. I can't keep having these conversations with men like you. You don't care what feminists have to say because we are the enemy. Well good luck with that. Im out.
@Wheresthebooze Oppression doesn't make you special. That's like a jew saying ''I'm special''Women are people. Like men. And if you want equality, you'd stop behaving like you're any different at all.
Because what's the point? Why bother being uber macho all the time when nothing comes of it?Besides why is it that women are allowed to forgo traditional. Gender roles but the moment men want the same thing suddenly people get hot under the collar?Double standards much?
@Malik00 gender roles do not make someone macho or feminine. A beta male can work a career and support his housewife but he will still be BETA! Being Alpha is not about supporting a wife, it is all about ATTITUDE AND MINDSET, not money. I think we have lost the definition of what feminity and masculinity is Every adult should have the ability and skills to provide and take care of themselves. An adult with no job or income is someone who cannot take care of themselves. Cooking and cleaning is not a feminine role either. A adult who cannot cook for himself is someone who cannot care for himself. Every adult should be able to cook clean and do his own laundry. I wouldn’t marry a guy who won’t help out around the house but rather only watch tv while I do all the chores. I need a responsible man who wants to serve his family the best that he can. Not someone with an overwhelming ego and tries to do as little as possible for the kids
@Malik00 and just cus a woman works a career, it doesn’t mean she is masculine. I am a feminine woman and I am career oriented.
Then i think you need to understand being an alpha all the time is exhausting, unless you're like personally dedicated to that way of life you can't keep it up all the time. So personally for me i treat it like a switch, turn it on when i need to and then turn it off when i'm done. Being alpha 24/7? No thanks. Too much of a headache.
@Malik00 real alpha males are alpha all the time. They don’t need to try cus it comes naturally. Truly feminine women are feminine all the time. Feminity is about empathy, patience, submissiveness, being nurturing, and softness. It is not about cooking or cleaning
Uh why do those traits have to be exclusive to femininity? Can't everyone be patient, nurturing and empathetic? Also why women gotta be submissive, overly submissive women are boring, like my women with some bite to em makes the interactions more fun.
@Malik00 Everyone is capable of empathy , softness and nurturing but these qualities tend to be much stronger amongst females than males , in general. Alpha males are bold , Courageous, risk taking , authoritative, poised, ambitious, love chasing goals, natural leaders, confident but not arrogant, able to intimidate but not be disrespectful And secondly what is fun or attractive to you might not be attractive to someone else. Some guys like submissive , others don’t. Some guys like boring kind women, others don’t. Some girls can’t fall for a guy unless he is comedic funny. while other girls do not need it. Different people like different things
teaching men from an early age that they should not cry and that they should seem tough especially towards girls
I understand. Tell me, what type of guy do you usually go for?
nice respectfull guys lmao
Cool.And have you been with guys like that?
How old are you?
W h a t
You know how the religious nuts treat women?
Yeah I've heard some stuff
They treat women like second class slaves
I know its really crazy
YOU USED A SENTENCE YET YOU SAID EVERYTHING. PREACH I STAN YOU. SOMEONE GIVE HER A MEDAL
Guys associate it to being told that they are inherently bad. That's why we get defensive.
No one said anything about men being inherently bad. The question is if toxic masculinity still exists. It does. If you don't contribute to it, that's great. But, denying that it exists doesn't make it suddenly vanish.
Just saying why guys get defensive. It's not because it exists, it's because we feel it as an insult to men.Why do you consider to be toxic masculinity?
It doesn't have to be an insult to all men. The goal here isn't to insult anyone. It's just to show that it does exist. I'm not sitting here saying that all men are toxic and that all females are saints. Toxic femininity is a thing too. We've all experienced it in one way or another."Real men don't ____. Real women don't ____. Real men look like ____. Real women look like ____."You can either become defensive and stay ignorant about it or acknowledge it and do better.
Honestly you're living proof thet being a woman in a first world country is basically playing life on easy mode
@Malik00 You don't have any proof that what you just said is accurate because you don't know me or what I've experienced. If attempting to invalidate someone's personal struggle is what makes you feel better, go for it. It still doesn't make me wrong.
The fact that society has next to no expectations of you which means you're allowed to get away with more quite frankly unfair. You can talk about your struggles all you like you've never had to go through any of it alone
@Malik00 How can you prove that though? You aren't entitled to an explanation about my personal history. There are plenty of societal expectations placed on women. The fact that you seem to be so oblivious is starting to make me think you might be a troll.
Then tell me this if you tried to attack me with a knife and I defended myself and all the police had to go by is ones word against the other, who do you think they would be more likely to believe?
When fathers say “Man up!" is a way of encouraging theirs sons. Not put them down. There are moments to cry, but there are so moments to be shaken and be told to step up to the occasion. It really depends on how people look at it.
@Malik00 I'm my country last year a husband beat the living hell of his wife with a bat. The guy got zero days in jail. In 3 months 12 women were killed by their husband's and most of them had gone to the police before.Also to say that society doesn't have any expectations on women is ignorant. They are expected to be submissive. To be pretty. To be mothers. To take care of the house and not focus on their career. And more.
Then maybe I'm unique in that regard. I hate submissive women, I personally find them boring. Everyone should be presentable so pretty is irrelevant, I dont know why they are so hung up about being mothers when society needs fathers more.As for taking care of the house the entire family should contribute to that. You make a mess, you clean a mess.Again maybe I'm just unique, but its 2020 and both partners need at least a part time job one shouldn't be carrying all the weight. Also where the hell did this happen? And why aren't we paying more attention to women In that country then?
@Malik00 The judge that ruled in favor of the husband in the bat case was forbidden to take part in similar cases ever again. There was a march for those dead women at the hands of their husbands.From what I hear no gender has it 100% perfect. Shit luck can happen to anyone.
@ThisIsMyOpinion Hmm sounds like this happened in india