Why Foreknowledge Doesn't Mean it's Determined and Does Not Diminish Free Will

[ConvertedCondom-User]

I am about to cover 4 basic views of why God's foreknowledge of the future is in no way meaning it's a determined outcome. I will show a video covering each view and later discuss which view I hold.

Predestination

This was a teaching by John Calvin and Saint Augustine of Hippo. They believed that since God already knew what the future holds, that it makes it determined and that we had no say in it, that it would happen no matter what. That makes man have no free will.

Molinism

Luis de Molina taught this view and it basically is middle knowledge. It covers that God already knows the future but the determined events was based on knowing which way we would exercise our free will. Basically saying our free will was controlled by God.

Open Future

Greg Boyd, who used to be atheist, now Christian, holds this view. It teaches that God knows the future, not terms of absolutes but in terms of possibilities. For you know that contradictions can not happen. For example, you can not eat a bagel and not eat a bagel for breakfast tomorrow. Only 1 of those 2 will happen. Although God already has foreknowledge of the future, it does not imply He determined it. The future deals with things that may or may not happen, not what will or will not happen.

Armenian/Complete Free Will

This teaches that God already knows what will happen in the future but that man decided which way the ultimate future would be. This shows that God knew what would happen and although it could be argued by atheists that it is like a movie or book being written to be played out the way God wanted it to go and knowing how we would choose, then God predetermined everything. That would make God unjust, so that's why this view it which I hold.

This is something I added in as why having foreknowledge does not show God determined it.

Having foreknowledge does not diminish Free Will

God created human being and angelic beings with free will. Even though God knows which sins you will or will not commit 2 years from now, it does not mean that He determined it. If God knows something will happen, it doesn't mean that He ordained or wanted it to happen.

My conclusion

As human beings, we know that if we decide to have children, then we are creating beings with the possibility of being a rapist but we still did not choose their path and neither did God. God gave them the free will to choose which they would choose. God already knows who will win the 2018 World Cup. It does not mean that the players do not have the choice to choose which side they kick the ball or choose how to play. Heck, even the referees may make a wrong call that changes how history could have happened.

If all things are determined, then it would make God unjust and our life would have no value but Free Will gives human life values over their choices. In the court of law, they convict you based on what evidence they have of your wrong choices. Free Will does not mean that you should choose which to do without consequences. You are held to consequences based upon your choices exercised by your free Will.

[ladsin]

What do you mean by free-will? Many libertarian views of free-will are nonsensical.

When I was a Christian I was an Armenianist, and frequently struggled with this question in light of my Calvinist schooling.

1.) If god knows the future, and that future is immutable then we simply don't have the free will to act in a manner contrary to god's knowledge. God can't be surprised, right?
2.) I'm an atheist, I presume that if your god existed he knew this when he was designing the universe, correct? If he knew that if the Universe formed in this way would lead to me being an atheist, and a universe manufactured in another way would lead to me being a theist then where is my free-will?
3.) "Of course we have free-will, the boss says so!"

[ConvertedCondom-User]

1. Just because God knew in advance how something would occur, doesn't imply that He determined it. It just meant He knew it. Man still decided it. Some people don't think you can once be a Christian. Remember the eternal security folks?

2. Your free will was there. You just used it for evil. You have the free will to eat a bagel or not eat a bagel for breakfast tomorrow.

3. You don't realize that you are held accountable for your actions. If we don't have free will, then why condemn a child molester or murderer since they were going to do it no matter what and they had no say in it?

[ladsin]

1.) Sure, if they think that someone can't change their mind or become un-convinced of their faith then doesn't free-will also go out the window?

2.) When god created this universe was he aware that in this Universe I'd become an atheist?

3.) I am held accountable for my actions, by my fellow man... We condemn and remove persons from our society that harm others for self-serving reasons. Whether or not that person was in control of their actions they're still harmful.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

1. God only turns people over to reprobate minds after 1st allowing them to make their choices. Just because you have free will, doesn't mean there is not consequences for using it wrongly.

2. Having foreknowledge doesn't mean God determined it.

3. So since you have no foreknowledge, you may punch a 10 year old girl in the face 4 hours from now and Elvis may come back to life. Also, you may be a devout Christian 25 days from now since you don't have foreknowledge.

[ladsin]

1&2) Did god know when he created this universe that I'd currently be an atheist, and could he have created a different universe in which I'd be a theist right now?

3.) I don't understand what you're thinking of here. I literally said that I'd still be held accountable for my actions. Just as the officer who punched a twelve year old girl in the face is being held accountable right now.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

1. Yes, God knew it would happen but it doesn't mean He had control over it. Yes, you can say by God not creating free will, that you'd nor be an atheist. However, with free agent beings, God limits His control over mankind by allowing mankind to exercise and control their own salvation or lack of salvation.

2. God could have created a universe without free will but if He did, there would not be any love in the universe. We would all be destined or designed, however you want to name it, to follow what God wished and couldn't rebel. Evil's creation was needed to provide evidence that man has free will. God is a creator and already knew best which way made the ultimate plan fulfilling. God has no control over your salvation because He would be unjust in determining it. He allows man to choose their salvation through Jesus.

3. I was just implying that since you don't know how the future will play out, then you can't be certain what you will be.

[ladsin]

1&2) god created the universe. He knew with 100% certainty, an immutable certainty, that in this universe I would today be an atheist. He could just as easily made a different universe in which instead I would be here today a theist.
I don't see any room for free will here.

3.) Are you saying god doesn't know the future? I'm lost on what you're trying to get across here.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

1. Maybe in the end, you'll be a theist again. You don't know that. Also, you chose to be atheist. Man's free will can intervene with God's free will and yes, William Lane Craig has deeply demonstrated how God can use free will and it not change the characteristic of God. You can argue that God can't change because He already knows in advance which choices He will make but some of those choices are contingent on man's choices. God knows whether He will say to you Depart from me or Well done, my faithful servant. You, today, have the capability to glorify the name of Jesus.

2. So you can't choose whether you want to worship God or Satan? God determined that you wouldn't serve Him as of now?

3. I was saying you don't know the future, not that God doesn't. However, knowing how something plays out, doesn't mean you determined it. You determine your own salvation and path and even small things like whether you will eat raspberries tomorrow or not.

[ladsin]

Oy vey.
1.) Does god know the future or not? IF yes, then I can't change it. It would be impossible.
2.) God created the universe.-> God knew when he created the universe that at this moment I would be an atheist.-> God could have made a different universe in which I would be a theist. ->I had no choice in which universe god chose to create.

[ladsin]

3.) Are you saying I'm god?

[ConvertedCondom-User]

1. You can change how the future would have turned out. You can choose whether to serve Jesus or not today.

2. Since you don't know the future, you can't know you won't be a theist again either. Your free will was used to rebel against God and be an atheist.

3. I hope you're not God because if you were, we'd be screwed.

[Izumiblu]

The entire basis of science is that things can be predicted by the existence of rules and laws.

Simply because we are not at a state where we can conceive every possible law or rule much less consider them all together does not mean the unpredictable is not predetermined by virtue of the laws and rules we all live within.

Further , free will requires the ability to not be predictable. So if free will existed we could never prove that it does with known techniques.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Science is not the only mode to prove things. It is only a mode.

[Izumiblu]

Logic and proofs are the basis of science. If you cannot predict an out come you have not proven it to be.

The very foundation of religion is faith, an acceptance that it cannot be proven but you believe it anyway. The Bible and fAith can pretty be no such concept.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Many things in science is faith based too. Theories are not proven facts. They are postulated to be true but unknown.

If you want to be atheistic in your views, then it matters not what I say to you.

[Izumiblu]

And... theory is accepted as unproven. Once it is proven it’s called... a law. Free will is simply a theory. A very poorly defined one at that because there are like several different definitions.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

All theories are not eventually proven to be fact. Some are eventually disproven.

You're atheistic so it doesn't matter what else you have to say because I'm ignoring it. You'll be wasting you time if you type because I won't read it at all.

[PillowThief]

Damn, that intolerable ignorance. Whatever, here's my piece;

Universal law is indisputable once it gains enough evidence, and some laws may be written to adapt over time. That doesn't make them disputable if they were written fundamentally to change over time.

Theory is tested hypothesis using known logic, interpretation, factual evidence (the vast majority of it being tangible), to the point that it is --as far as we're concerned-- demonstrably true. A hypothesis only becomes a theory when pretty much global peer review mutually agrees on it.

Hypothesis is an idea that works 'somewhat' on paper: something that just 'makes sense'. It can be built up using logic deduced from existing facts, thus, the most likely hypotheses might be dragged forward as theoretical contenders. Philosophy is another manner of generating hypotheses. They are not necessarily wrong or right.

[PillowThief]

Because you took a few shots at science, here's what you need to realise about the difference between science and religion;

Science is built on facts, and strives to generate more facts. Regardless of its origins, it is the practice of exploring the universe in all its forms, to find truth and as much absolution as humanly possible. We store any information so that it may be revised over time if need be, and so that standing information can be used to better our futures.

Religion is strictly a hypothesis, and at best, a very loose one, and for only one reason -- it's unfalsifiable. That's why it's labelled as a religion, and why science isn't. People can put faith in either and even in both, but at the end of the day, science is what is generating real, demonstrable facts. Religion never has and continues to live up to twisting 'facts' to fit a narrow fantasy. The description of a god defines that we are too inferior to technologically prove one exists without their assistance.

[PillowThief]

Since we can't do that, we've no way of proving one exists to each other. Forget the book -- it's proof of little more than a guy can write something. If your god ever does make their presence undeniably apparent, then science will be the first movement waiting to confirm it, and trust me, if it's true, the god will be backed as long as scientific endeavour exists. For now, please stop preaching religion as something that is more fact than it is assumption, superstition and imagination. Those three words sum it up, I dare say perfectly. Please stop shitting on non-believers and casting aside every logical doubt and piece of comprehensible truth that you are wrong and they are right. It'll contribute to making the world a much better place.

[ObscuredBeyond]

This is also why I developed the Web of Destiny model.

God is the rod in the middle of the cobweb. All history will be shaped around what must happen ultimately (Vocational Destiny.) However, loyalty cannot exist unless it is tested. (Volition Dilemma.) Fate, therefore, is the consequential intersection of colliding wills from multiple beings that have to make decisions.

He can dictate something to happen, and go to extreme lengths to manipulate the outcome. That doesn't mean he dictates the minutia of how we get there. Since He sees the big picture and we don't, everything is fair game.

It's similar to how mathematicians have all but proven at least one additional spatial dimension, to which we cannot normally gain access, except in very restricted lab experiments. And even then, only with subatomic particles.

Our eyes only truly allow our brains to comprehend our 3 dimensions of reality due to parallax reconciliation of a combined 180 degrees of field of view. We otherwise only see 2-dimensional cross-sections of 3D space. If God can see in 4 or infinite dimensions, he sees trains about to crash that our best computer systems can't deduce in advance will be a liability.

This is one reason that prophets tend to be seen as crazy: nothing makes sense until after it happens. And even then, our minds have difficulty accepting it - because it reminds us too much of our own limitations.

[backdoorman]

"As human beings, we know that if we decide to have children, then we are creating beings with the possibility of being a rapist but we still did not choose their path..."

That ^^ is true, but we as parents also are not able to see the future. If we could, and we knew a child we were going to bring into the world would be a rapist or would suffer horribly, we would choose not to bring them into the world. If we had that ability, we could literally rid the world of a hell of a lot of pain and suffering.

God had that power, but he chose to make the world what it is and bring into it people he knew would do horrible things. He made that conscious choice knowing exactly what it would mean. So yeah, God is unjust.

Or, more likely, God as you think he exists, doesn't.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Just because God knew it would happen, doesn't mean He determined it. Ans the thing is you know bringing in children, that you are potentially bringing in a child molester or murderer too. They also may be a very great man or woman who may save lives and gives great things.

[backdoorman]

Choosing to move forward with something when you know the outcome in advance = determining the outcome.

Regarding children, again, the important point is whether or not we can see the future before we make the choice to bring a child into the world.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

No it's not. Just because God knew in advance which people would choose to deny Jesus, doesn't mean that He determined it to happen. Man had say so in it. You could have chose to accept Jesus rather than deny Jesus.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Also by having children, you're bringing in somebody who you know will face death also. So it's not always a choice you can make to control what happens to who you bring into the world.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

bornofspirit.net/does-gods-will-always-happen/

God's Will does not always happen.

[backdoorman]

There are serious flaws in your argument but I'm not going to spend the evening trying to get you to see them.

Cheers

[ConvertedCondom-User]

You didn't even watch and listen to the videos, sir. There's flaws in predestination big time.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

You're not right about something just because you think I'm wrong. Nobody thinks they are wrong with their views. It's not by default that I'm wrong just because you think I am.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

It's a fallacy to think that knowing how something happens meant that it was going to happen that way no matter what and that we had no say so in stopping it or not.

So if a man was beating up your mom, would you have a say in knowing not to prevent more damage? Yes you would. You have the power not to stand in front of a moving vehicle and can predict with great accuracy that doing so will end your life.

[backdoorman]

Fair enough. But that doesn't change my views.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Why don't you explain why you think God doesn't have foreknowledge and doesn't know how the future will turn out then?

To say things are predestined is calling God unjust.

[PillowThief]

Having all said in another post, here. You might like this. It's worth noting that we've barely scraped the top of quantum mechanics, since I know you're not into science and perhaps not privy to that.
bigthink.com/.../why-quantum-physics-ends-the-free-will-debate

[John_Doesnt]

I don't believe in actual "foreknowledge". I only believe in butt-knowledge.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

So if you held a tennis ball 388 times at your waist and let it go and it fell all 388 times, then you don't have the foreknowledge to know that the 389th time, it will also fall? So you think it's possible that diversion may be possible after x number of events?

[John_Doesnt]

No, because there's no way of knowing if the tennis ball will explode from a mutant outbreak of zombie virus!

[ConvertedCondom-User]

But there's possible outcome and impossible outcome to certain events. Tomorrow morning, you either will eat a bagel or will not eat a bagel and you don't know which it will be since you don't have foreknowledge.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

The cat in the box is dead.

[John_Doesnt]

@Wwwyzzerdd no, the cat is alive again from a zombie plague. There's not way of having foreknowledge that would happen.

[Wwwyzzerdd]

Would that mean the cat is really Jesus' secondcumming?

[Juxtapose]

There is no free will, with or without a deity. We're just organic machines that have no more free will than an A. I programmed to act a certain way. Our genetics and rearing determine how we act. We don't make choices out of the void.

[Arne123123]

Or, there is no god and shit happens. Until there is proof a god exist it's just not rational to belive. At the moment i have not found anything even pointing to a god even possibly existing, yet alone a spesific one being probable.

[Hungry_Shark]

Intriguing