Natural evil versus moral evil differences and why Satan is needed for love to exist

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Here I will discuss some differences between natural evils and moral evils. This take ought to be basic and not needed to go deeply into to understand the reasons why Satan is needed for love to exist.

Natural Evil

Natural evil is a result of terrible things that happens to the earth like floods, hurricanes and diseases. Without such things, then having a world without things would result in a world without death and the population would always grow and never decrease because sin would not enter the equation. This would be necessary because there needs to be a balance between good and evil and choice needs to be taken.

Moral Evil

Moral evil is a result from Free Will being exercised in a way that is not to choose what God wants. You have things like murder, rape, robberies. These are all a result of man deciding to not do good.

Why Satan needs to exist for love to exist

If you have a world of no evil and peace was always happening, then there can not be love. If you can not make decisions, you are only forced to act in a way that you were designed to do. That's not love. Love can not be forced. Love has to be chosen. By God creating evil and Satan particularly, it shows that God loves man by placing evil as a consequence of rejecting love. If be could only do what we were designed to do, how can it really be love? It can't. Satan needs to exist for love to exist.

While there are many great videos covering this, I like Greg Boyd's view the best. He is intelligent and covers the issue thoroughly.

My conclusions

I know it sounds crazy to create Satan for love to exist because Satan is evil but He is needed. An atheistic view would be who cares if we have choice, just eliminate all evil. By eliminating all evil, you would not have love. Love has to be chosen.

[ladsin]

Hmm... To start with I don't believe in god or the devil, but I certainly think some things are evil, but we have different takes on this issue as well.

"Natural Evil": I wouldn't call natural disasters evil. They're not thinking agents and can't be judged in that manner. If however there was a person who was creating these natural disasters to wipe out massive amounts of people then that person would be considered evil.

"Moral Evil": I don't much care what god thinks, so I don't agree with something being immoral just because god doesn't like it, and in fact many of the things you mentioned most gods are actually not that opposed to. Just take the Abrahamic god for example that commands and condones, genocide, infanticide, filicide, and almost any other -ide you can think of.
My thoughts are a little more expanded here, Time To Dispel The Myth, Religion Does Not Give Us Morals ↗
Thanks for sharing.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

You didn't even watch and listen to the video, dude. How can you make a judgment that they don't have compelling evidence for natural and moral evil?

Natural evil is natural. If something is natural, nothing needs to guide or direct it because it is a natural result. Nothing causes natural death but it happens. When people die of natural causes, there is no known cause to their death.

[ladsin]

And my point is that I wouldn't call that evil...

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Greg Boyd used to hold atheistic views but is now a Christian. So the reverse can happen to. From atheist to Christian.

[ladsin]

I never said nor implied it couldn't...

[ConvertedCondom-User]

You use your current status of atheist as if it will be that way for life though. That's the notion I was perceiving but I am glad you didn't imply that. I was informing that maybe God knows the possibilities of the future but not the actual result. He knows what may or may not come to pass instead of will or will not come to pass.

Also, by you choosing to be a father, if you chose that, wouldn't you be held accountable for creating potential evil, as the child you bring may be a murderer or child molester? You could have stopped the potential evil by not having children. Also, the child may turn out to be Christian too. So isn't having children a gamble?

[ladsin]

1.) I think you're imagining a different argument...
2.) I don't have foreknowledge, if I did there may be an argument that I had some responsibility. I again though think you're arguing something else...

[ConvertedCondom-User]

So you're saying if you know how something in the past will happen, not may or may not happen, then the one with that foreknowledge caused it to happen and determined it would be that way since they knew it would happen?

But you're excused because you only know the possibility of evil will result if you have a future son or daughter? You don't know for sure how they will behave, so you can't be held accountable?

But foreknowledge doesn't mean the person with it determined the event. God knew in advance that mankind has free will because he created free will and evil. Isaiah 45:7 shows God created evil. So if evil was created, then the possibility to choose it has to be a free will choice.

You're confusing that if you know how something with turn out, that you're responsible for it. When there are free agent creatures, then they hold the responsibility of their own actions.

[ladsin]

Your logic here is very confused.

If I were to know, right now, that my roommate was about to go out and murder a bunch of people and I did nothing to stop him. I would have some responsibility...

[ConvertedCondom-User]

Not if you gave the person choosing it the option not to kill themselves too. You're blaming God for mankind choosing to be evil instead of blaming mankind for choosing to rebel against God.

Everybody has the capability to choose good. Everybody has the capability to choose evil.

Also, all knowing doesn't mean you know all things. It means you know all propositional truths. If something is a propositional false, then you can not know it. Propositional truths are based on know man uses their free will.

[ladsin]

What?
I know my roommate is about to walk into a school and kill 20 kids. I don't stop him. I don't call the police. Etc. I share some blame. Everyone knows this. Nobody, and I'm quite certain when I say this, could possibly deign to watch 25 children being murdered in front of them every single minute of every single day and not do a damn thing to stop it. On top of that to claim you're supremely good? Ludicrous. The people who believe it? Incredulous.

I don't believe in god. I don't blame a god for the evil in the world anymore than I blame totalitarianism in all it's forms. A divine edict is just the pinnacle of totalitarianism.

Explain what you mean here. I don't understand your wording. Perhaps give an example of some things god does and doesn't know.

[ladsin]

*they're credulous, I find the belief incredulous 😂

[Bibelen]

Are you jealous up God? If so , then that is good, cause God is good.👶🏿

[sawno]

Even though i am not a christian and don't use the same terminology unless i am talking to a christian our beliefs match up on this subject at least on earth.

I dont see God and Satan as people but as energy sources, God being the source of positivity and satan being the source of negativity.

Earth is a border world to me where beings with a varieing balance of these two energies can come and learn from each other. It has a transforming effect and helps you become who you are. It helps you grow and if you do it right you grow towards yourself so that you will be more yourself then ever before.

To do this we need both forms of energy otherwise there is no motion and most places in existance beyond our world i believe to be acmix of the two where when you die you end up where your own energy is most at home.

But if the negative energy did not exist the positive energy would become neutral and as a result it would be so constant that not only would we be incapable of doing evil we would not be able to sense our love and happyness as it would become the new neutral.

So from this point of view of my own philosophy i completely agree with you and this realisation which i also had before defined by beliefs quite a bit as it explains to me that tgere are two equally strong forces at play instead of one god who can do evil if he wants to.

[JudgmentDay]

For starters, I don't follow any kind of organized religion. But anyays, why does love even matter at all? Or does it only matter because you WANT it to matter or DESIRE it to matter? And depending on the kind of love, which ones are you exactly referring to specifically. In some ways you have made your points. Because I always wondered what existence and reality would be like if there was COMPLETELY VOID OF ALL suffering, pain, miseries, death, discomfort, but then I'm most certainly there would be ABSOLUTELY no purpose or meaning to exist if it was possible to exist in such a way, well other than merely to exist just to exist and nothing more than that.

Because the without any possibilities of pain, miseries, suffering, then there's no possibilities of, or at least no point of joy, "good" or pleasurable things, etc., but however, I feel and believe that most of, if not, ALL OF THE THINGS that exist to provide us joy, comfort and pleasure, the so called "good" things are nothing more than coping mechanisms altogether.

In some ways, or many ways, I think and feel I'd be okay without BOTH joy and pain, as long as pain, suffering and all miseries and death do not exist and can no longer exist. But that's just me. I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things, all of those "good" things just to completely eliminate ALL of the "bad" things. Most people aren't, even if it was possible and offered to pick such a way to exist. I once asked a similar question to see how many feel or think similarly to me and how willing are they to give up all of the "good" as long as all of the "bad" are completely and fully eliminated. An eternally neutral existence where good and bad, or light and dark is no longer relevant and completely redundant, guess the majority just do not desire a fully neutral and eternal existence

@Unit1?

[JudgmentDay]

But it makes me wonder a reality and existence completely void of hate would that then not make it also completely void of hate, or at least then, hate would lose it's purpose and meaning. I guess for every positive, there's a negative, and if there's lack of one then there would be lack of the other. Imagine a world, reality, existence, whatever, void of all love and void of all hate.

[Greatcat]

Your conclusion is old and over used. I've heard this a thousand times. It is false. Satan does not need to exist for love to exist, you are stuck in relativity and it's confused your perception of objective reality.

As long as we have this false belief, we will always be stuck with satan in our world. You just make assertions without any argument to back them up. Why does satan need to exist for us to enjoy love? If you love because you know nothing else, it's love nonetheless. One does not need to experience great suffering to experience great joy. Sure, the hot rays feel warmer after a cold swim, but that doesn't change the objective reality of what is happening. Even if everyone loves eachother just because it's the norm, that doesn't mean they are not choosing it. People choose things that aren't the norm all the time, look at the hipster movement.

This belief was put here by the dark occult to keep us trapped. Satan begone, evil need not exist for love to exist, fucking lies

[sawno]

Evil doesn't need to exist for love to exist but both need to exist for someone to grow in either direction. If there was only love and nobody experienced evil nobody would know why love is special it would be completely normal.

[Greatcat]

@sawno love is special because it is love. This is not a matter of relativity. This is what you and most people don't seem to yet get. Everyone wants to justify why evil needs to exist because if it doesn't need to exist then somebody might have to fuckin DO something about it. That is why this horseshit belief continues to thrive. If there is no evil and we are only knowing love, then we don't need to grow in the ways evil would teach us to as we are already living properly, having learned the lesson, there is no need for such a harsh teacher.

[Gray-Wisp]

I know this is a little different but I've always wondered something.

We all have free will. Christians believe it's for essentially the reason you've mentioned there. We have to make certain choices.

Imagine if I WILLINGLY signed a contract stating that I relinquish my free will back to God so that I can't sin. That way I literally cannot sin from that point on and did so willingly.

It may not be a "contract" or whatever. just a deal or agreement. Why wouldn't God accept that agreement? I'm not saying God would be obligated to, but it'd be a really good idea.

[135711]

Your definition of natural evil is bad. Actually your understanding of biomes is also bad. If humans did not die the world wouldn't support an infinite number of humans so eventually humans would die due to the biosphere simply being incapable of supporting them. This actually happens naturally in cycles all the time such as when gazelle greatly outnumber lions or when lions greatly outnumber gazelle.

Earthquakes are just the movements of tectonic plates not some bizarrely strange random occurence designed to wipe out anything I would think that arguing that they didn't exist when hanging out between the Tigris and Euphrates is unlikely albeit one could pose that it was Pangaea but even then just the splitting of the land and the formation of rivers would be sufficient evidence for some kind of already present erosive effects in the world.

[Arne123123]

In none of your takes or comments do you even seem to ask the question DOES god exist?, IS the bible inspired by a god? You just asume god exist and that the bible is inspired by him, and i don't see justification for either. But by all means, keep clinging to the wishfull thinking and false hope, and make thiese takes desperatly trying to justify something to yourself. Most of us just facepalm at how silly you are. You're almost as silly a hispanic cool guy

[Hispanic-Cool-Guy]

"By God creating evil and Satan particularly, it shows that God loves man by placing evil as a consequence of rejecting love.

If be could only do what we were designed to do, how can it really be love? It can't. Satan needs to exist for love to exist."

What in the world? Satan is POS. We don't need that A-hole for love to exist.

What a stupid Mytake.

[sawno]

You dont need satan for love to exist but these energies on earth keep each other at balance. Without it evil would not exist but nobody would know what love and happyness truly is as it would be the new neutral.

[Guanfei]

There is no Satan. When someone do something bad, he does it on his own. No snake whispering in his ears, no horny demon pushing him to be a dick...
Everyone is responsible for his own actions.
And it's the same for God. No god is doing good, blessing you or whatever. The good you do, you do it yourself.

[Gavyn]

This is an interesting take, especially for a serious Christian such as myself. I've never thought about the importance of Satan'a existence and his purpose... Well done!

[Ahsthen]

It's just the 'there must be evil for there to be good' fucking claptrap. Now humans at large seem to need such to feel Cosmically validated.

[Gavyn]

@Ahsthen in my opinion, they're not quite the same. Your example is more of a "Yin-Yang" sort of deal, whereas this feels more like "You can't have love without something to create chaos". It's not as much of a one doesn't exist without the other as much as it is one literally gave way for the other.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

@Gavyn
That's true because how can it be called love if you can't choose it? The atheistic view is that God should have just created good but that's not the same as love. If all people did good, they'd have to because they'd have no choice. In order to love, evil must be created.

God created evil. The Bible already says so. You are mighty sharp. I wish more people understood the view but sadly people think that foreknowledge means determined and that if an event happens a certain way that it was meant by God to happen that way but they are wrong because man's Will can interfere with God's Will. God's Will is that all come to the knowledge of the truth and if that doesn't doesn't, then it was man's fault.

Isiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

[Ahsthen]

Only in the minds of some humans.

[ConvertedCondom-User]

@Ahsthen
Just because you have atheistic view of God, doesn't make your mind right. You're not right by default.

[Ahsthen]

You assume one by way of the other. Another typical human tendency.

[Ahsthen]

You migh read Jeremy Levin's Satan: his psychotherapy and cure by the unfortunate Dr. Kassler J. S. P. S.

[HereIbe]

What you call "natural evil" is not evil at all. It is merely misfortune.

[Sabretooth]

all evil is morally evil-evil was never suppose to enter the word

[sawno]

I disagree earth to me is designed for both sides to learn from each other so that you can further develop yourself.

[Sabretooth]

@sawno 1 John 5:19
19 We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. a

[sawno]

I don't agree with that statement, to me people can originate both from the positive and the negative side. Earth allows both to transform into who they truly are or into who they wish to be. Which can transform evil people into good, and good people into evil depending on the kind of decisions they make and what they strive to become. Most people will already be good and might become more good, or are already evil and may become a bit more or less evil. But the assumption we are all good to begin with i disagree with, but it is true that nobody who enters earth is either completely devine or completely evil we all have a bit of both but some begin more good and others begin more evil.

[Sabretooth]

@sawno we are born good-til the devil deceived eve.

[sawno]

I don't personally believe that, not everyone is born good young children who have never been exposed to evil can still do faul deeds when they for example feel there sister gets to much attention instead of them. To me we are all a mixture of everything including our new borns, but the variety of good and evil differs from person to person.

[Sabretooth]

@sawno there was no evil until the devil manipulated eve, she convinced adam to sin-here we are

[CT_CD]

Interesting