I’d say you’re not the norm. I can literally track areas of America and England that are all one branch of religion.
Using Britain as an example because that’s where I’m from- approximately 5000 British people every year convert to Islam, according to The Guardian. Is their religion really defined by where they are from?Yes, there are areas where there will be only one religion and yes, in that instance when it comes to religion, where you are from plays a large role in your religion.But that’s not necessarily the only way religion spreads.https://youtu.be/L6PRwwwh31k
Again…5000 vs billions. You’re looking at your own experience as facts. Vast majority of religionists are born into it and never waiver.
I provided you with a factual statistic, yet you’re telling me I’m looking at my own experience? Or are you sure you’re not the one who can’t see beyond your own preconceived notations?In 2017 Pew Research did a study and according to them Islam was expected to have a net positive conversion rate of +420,000 within a period of 5 years. Is that my own experience? I’m not saying the majority of religious people convert. You are correct the majority of us are born into our religions- but a sizeable amount are also not, and where they are born clearly does not define their religious beliefs. That’s my point.If religion only spread through people being born into it, then I could see your point. However religion spreads through both people being born into it, and people converting- so the question you have to ask what makes somebody convert from one religion or no religion to another religion? Are you just going to invalidate converts now?
And I agree with you. But it’s because they’re having more babies. Literally spelled out in the pew study.
No, you’re referring to a different Pew study, but yes, that is also correct but the Pew study I’m referring to- is one which said in 2017, that in between 2015-2020 Islam was expected to grow a net positive rate of +420,000 by conversions, another study from 2015 showed that Islam is expected to gain 3 million adherents through conversion between 2010 and 2050 making Islam the second largest religion of net gains through conversions after religiously unaffiliated.So yes, while the primary reason for the growth of Islam is high birth rates- I’d also argue that Islam grows significantly through conversion rates too, as other Pew studies suggest.
Lol nobody buys the "I'm not Muslim just because my parents are" crap.
@OfDeath When one of your only motivations to live is “suicide is haram” I can assure you, my parents play very little part in my faith.
Then you should realise there's more to life than cultural beliefs.
And if you weren’t ignorant you’d know my beliefs aren’t cultural, and what actually are cultural beliefs for me, which are actually pretty toxic my religion cancels them out.Don’t speak on issues you don’t know about without knowledge. The truth is you don’t know my story, or the stories of most religious people so why don’t you just shut up and accept that you have your beliefs and we have ours?
Is your religion not believed by the majority of those who share your culture of birth?
Yes, but the lines between religion and culture especially in my culture have become extremely blurred. The two are not the same.The reason why the lines between them have become extremely blurred, is due to lack of education about the religion to its own followers- there’s things my parents aren’t even aware of about Islam.
Whatever excuse you choose, Islam is part of Pakistani culture now. You believe you have a more worldly view because you're able to see through superficial apologetics like "suicide is Haram" but all you're really doing is digging deeper into the hole that is your religion. You are looking for the answers down the local well, when what you're looking for could be anywhere the world.
Eh, no I’m not. You’re an ignorant Western boy who thinks you’ve got people like myself sussed when in reality you don’t have the slightest clue about Islam or Pakistani culture and how different both actually can be.
Actually, I've been to Pakistan and know a lot of Muslims in general and can compare Muslims from other cultures to Pakistanis. I've been to their houses, been with them on their family vacations, participated in their cultural traditions, attended their weddings, offered my condolences at their funerals, went to the mosque with them, spoke to their imam, basically saw deep into almost every facet of their lives, so I wouldn't be so quick to impetuously label me as an "ignorant western boy" if I were you. Your obduracy permeates through almost everything you say and it is a result of your ignorance. Instead of lashing out at everyone who can fault your ideals, you should broaden your horizons past the limitations of your benighted superstition.
That doesn’t necessarily mean anything. You been to Pakistan but what did you actually learn there? If you for a second think that Desi culture and Islam are the same then you clearly know nothing or very little about Islam- I don’t lash out at everyone I’m lashing out at you beca you’re assuming my religion is a result of my parents instilling it into my from a young age- when you have no idea about my upbringing or anything- you assume I haven’t looked at other world views, I have and even then I came to conclude Islam is the truth.You are an ignorant Western boy. Because even with partaking in Muslim practices and culture, you’re still assuming why I’m a Muslim and that my culture equates to my religion.
Look, this is a common attitude I've encountered particularly among south Asians and middle Easterners. You seem to not be able to realise that it is actually possible for an outsider to take an informed, objective view of your culture. You accuse me of things I never even mentioned due to defensive presumption and you lash out. I've seen it all before. This is a natural defence mechanism which results from instinctual out-group hostility. The more remote you are to rational scepticism, the more hostile you're expected to be. You're displaying every ear mark of this expected behaviour. You are now acting on instinct. Pakistan is not the only place in the world where an amalgamation between local traditions and religion has occured. This is basically everywhere and out of all the arrangements, none have come up with any emphatic revelations by inwardly obsessing over their own superstitions in a biased frenzy of self gratification. One way or another, you ARE the product of your culture. Given your reaction to someone like me, you have clearly never encountered anyone who has been able to articulate this to you.
Again you’re assuming things based off of the Desis you’ve seen before. I know it’s not impossible for an outsider to have a well informed view of our culture, many of my friends who are non-Desi do, so don’t assume things about me with purely knowing nothing about me.My reaction was hostile not because you’re challenging my faith, but because at the time I was talking to you I was stressed out about other things because believe it or not there’s far more to my life than just being Desi and Muslim and you were just somebody easy to take my frustrations out on, so I did. It’s got nothing to do with questioning my beliefs of presenting me a challenge to my beliefs. And that said, it was wrong of me to take my frustrations with other stuff going on in my life out on you, it’s not as if it’s your fault- so I’m sorry🙃But see this is what I mean when I call you ignorant, with all due respect. You think because I’m Desi, because I’m Muslim- you the Atheist has come to me with these arguments that I simply cannot comprehend because my religion/culture doesn’t allow me to or takes that ability away from me. You don’t think “perhaps there’s something else going on in her life causing her to react Iike this” “perhaps she’s just in a bad mood” you immediately assume that I’ve never encountered anybody similar to you who is able to articulate your arguments to me, I’ve never thought that there is a possibility of other truths out there, I’ve never opened my mind beyond my own little Muslim and Pakistani bubble.You may have seen it as a common attitude among Desis, but have you ever stopped to think that perhaps it might not be you that’s making them react like that, it could be you, but it could very well be other things in their lives too, like it was with me.Or do you just put your preconceived notations onto all of us?
And I mean you have to accept that as a Western ethnically and by your nationality too I assume that there are some parts of Desi culture you just will never understand and you won’t experience. And for that reason alone, yes your view of Desi culture can be well informed to a certain extent but it won’t be entirely well-informed.I mean you say Islam is part of Pakistani culture, that is debatable. Because while yes, the majority of Paks are Muslim, for the majority of Paks Islam plays a huge role in our lives- but what about for the non-Muslim Pakistanis? The Sikhs? The Hindus? The Christians? Is Islam a part of their culture even though they don’t follow it? Or by your logic, are they immediately excluded from Pak culture because they’re non-Muslim?There are certain areas where the Pakistani culture and Islam do align indeed. But Pakistani culture is not the same as Islam.Like any culture Desi culture as a whole has its toxic parts, and those are the kind of things of our culture which you as an outsider just won’t experience. I’ve experienced toxic parts of our culture, and you feel so trapped I couldn’t even put it into words.What freed me from that cultural toxicity, however, isn’t Atheism, running away from home throwing off my hijab abandoning my religion (lol unlike the Netflix movies), what freed me from the cultural toxicity I experienced was Islam. Learning about Islam, from qualified people who dedicate their whole lives to studying the religion, or if not their whole lives a big proportion of their lives- I didn’t just take their word for gospel (lol that’s ironic) but they presented to me evidence to show me that actually Islam is against the cultural toxicity, and that if my family followed Islam correctly- I wouldn’t be experiencing the toxicity that I had been. And that alone is enough to free me, to know, that actually if my family followed the religion correctly my upbringing would have been a whole lot better
And the problem is my family in one sense have prioritized cultural beliefs over religious ones, and that’s really sad.But it makes me determined that when I have kids, I will raise them with Islam, not Islam/toxic cultural beliefs.You think you’ve “seen it all before” believe me, you really do have no idea. A trip to Pakistan, traveling around South Asia and perhaps the Middle East, meeting Muslims- doesn’t necessarily mean you have a BA in Islamic Studies. Yes you may be well informed to a particular extent, but that doesn’t necessarily make you an expert.
There is a lot to respond to there. Particularly the personal stuff. I simply can't be bothered. Not because I'm unable to respond, but you're just not in the right frame of mind. I'm not sure you ever will be. Such extreme denial isn't easy to let go of and I don't think I could reason with you without coming across as arrogant or malicious. Particularly from your point of view. I had just written something here which I decided to remove. I just don't see anything good about potentially giving someone an existential crises. Every day I'm amazed at the level of seeerious delusion the religion section of girlsaskguys reveals about the world.
Lol okayExcept I’m not in extreme denial. It might surprise you but I did go through a phase in life where I really did question whether my Islamic beliefs were actually correct or not, I looked into Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Confucianism I even looked into other alternatives such as Atheism, Liberalism, Feminism, Utilitarianism, and actually if you look on my profile from a few years back- you’ll see I even identified as a feminist and advocated for feminism, so it’s not that I’ve only ever been exposed to Islam and I’m so attached to Islam that I can’t even fathom an alternative worldview. I’ve looked at alternative worldviews, I’ve questioned objective and subjective morality, and throughout my “journey” of belief/faith- I found Islam to be true.You know, you probably thinking my parents made drop and do 12 rak’as from the age of 7, made me read the whole Quran about 100 times, made me wear the hijab, instilled the religion into me so much that I just can’t let it go.But it’s actually the opposite, my upbringing was complicated- when it came to teaching me Islam, my parents did lack, so much so, that I didn’t even start praying 5x a day until last year because I didn’t know how, I lacked basic knowledge about Islam for so many years, I didn’t even start wearing the hijab until last month.And my parents never told me to pray, or wear the hijab, or even do extra religious voluntary acts- and in fact, I find myself educating *them* about Islam.My parents aren’t super religious there’s actually stuff they don’t do as Muslims that they should be doing, but they don’t- if you looked at my family you’d probably say I’m the most religious one out of everyone. And that’s not from the influence of my parents, that’s from the influence of studying and learning about not just my own religion but different religions and worldviews too.😂😂😂And seriously? You think you can hurt me? If only you knew what my childhood was like😂😂😂
But seriously with discussions with atheists this has happened quite frequently in that (in my own personal experience) atheists often come with almost a boarder line superiority complex, in that, they think they’ve got me sussed- I’m just some religious nut who has been ideologically imprisoned to only believe one religion Islam, and that I’ve never been exposed to anything else. I also find it funny, how some of you atheists think you’re “the one”:“You’ve never met anyone like me before”“You just haven’t encountered someone who can offer you an alternative worldview”And honestly it is quite funny, that y’all almost have this saviour complex in that this poor little Muslim girl has never been exposed to any other worldview and you the atheist, are going to teach me why (according to you) there’s no god, and then I’m going to break free from the “chains” of my religion and become a liberated “freethinker” like calm down, I know that’s how the Western media portrays Muslim women, but we’re not actually like that.And then when y’all discover actually I have been exposed to other worldviews, and I challenge you- you make up some excuses like “oh I can’t be bothered” now you need to save me from an “existential crisis.” And look you might be genuinely not bothered because I’ve written so much, but I just find it funny how when you discover I’m not your preconceived notation, you no longer want a discussion.And that isn’t all atheists I’ve discussed religion with, some actually are not ignorant and they learn that actually I’m not who they thought I was, but in the end we respectfully agree to disagree. For me is my Way, for them is their way.If you ever change your mind bro, I’m always up for some religious/atheist discussions- just not yet, because it’s exam season, but some other time? Sure.
A seriously disturbing rant full of self justification for denial which never even answered my one question.
@SpiderManFan2002 Good luck on your finals. Are you a Tobey spidey fan? Is that the 2002 meaning?
@OfDeath I’m confused as to what your question was?
@OfDeath And by the way, it wasn’t a rant lol, at that point I was laughing but interpret it how you will😂😂
@OddBeMe Thank you😊And I love Tobey as Spider-Man tbh, I think not one of them actually did a bad job if I’m honest, but that’s not the meaning behind the ‘2002’ lol, it’s because I’m born in 2002 I put that there😝
I was so disturbed by the level of denial in your answer to the question that I completely overlooked that was your genuine answer.
@OfDeath Ironic how you whine about me not answering your question, when by the way, you ignored several of mine and instead you just sat there claiming I’m in denial, again your superiority complex is showing, but not only that- you just ignored my most recent question asking what it was you were initially asking- and you really have a leg to stand on when it comes to condemning people for not answering questions?😂
It was the first question I asked way back in the thread. You basically gave an answer which doesn't reflect actual reality due to serious denial. All I do is make observations. If you want to ask me anything, you're welcome to but I don't have time to sift through your excessive rants so if you want my response, you'll have to ask again.
@OfDeath Was it, is Islam a part of Pak culture? To which I answered it could be seen that way, and there are certain parts of Pak culture and Islam that align but you cannot equate the two to each other.You make “observations” I’ve lived with the culture and parts of it you have and have not experienced, to think you know my own culture better than I do is simply arrogant but an attitude I see commonly among a number of people who have simply partaken in certain aspects of the culture.And moreover, you have enough time to say I’m in denial and write lengthy responses basically belittling my ability to come to a conclusion claiming I’m in denial- yet you have no time to provide a simple answer to any of the questions I propose? Seems like I might not be the one suffering with denial after all😂😂
Islam is very much part of Pakistani culture right down to it's laws. That is just a fact. I'm not making it up just to try winning an argument which I couldn't care less about.And you are now continuing to make more unfounded assumptions which I'm under no obligation to take seriously.
Funny how it is forced and indoctrinated onto children, though…
I consider forcing anything that is not necessary for survival to be abuse. My grandpa forced down my throat this black nasty cough syrup anytime grandma or mom thought I had a fever, even if I wasn't showing any symptoms of a cold. The bottle had been purchased at a pharmacy when my dad was a little kid, and that was in the late 40s and all through the 70s and early 80s he is forcing down my throat as well. That bottle is older than my mom was but as far as my grandparents were concerned, it was necessary for my survival. Goes to show you what good intentions can do, yuck🤢🤮!
That’s broad definitions. I’m not saying parents should be regulated in their parenting. But the more we discuss this shit the less people beleive on magic sky men.
Except keep bitching about religion and creating more atheists.
Atheists are more often than not just little people trying to be edgy. Smart people fall into agnosticism, instead of shutting out every possible door for debate. But of course, they feel superior, as many other brainless idiots these days and age.
What’s the difference between atheists and agnostics?
Atheists don't believe in the existence of anything unobservable. Agnostics believe that some superior being could exist, but they don't feel like giving them a name, a shape or accompanying it to any particular religion. Basically, they don't bar the potential existence of a superior being or multitude of them, just they can't and won't identify them with a cult, as that is hardly fitting a progressed human being.
Wrong. Theism is belief. Gnosticism is knowledge. Two separate things.Atheists don’t believe in a god. There’s nothing about believing NO god exists. See the difference?
You fail to see or just know the difference about faith and agnosticism, but that doesn't surprise me much.
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So being born in the West vs Asia wouldn’t change religions for most people? You’re a moron.
True, but if you happen to be born in either Utah or Massachusetts- what religions would either be? Mormon/Catholic.
Guess it depends on your definition of theology. The growing number of unaffiliated (aka atheists)- no.
i think even "atheists" believe in something whether they can or cannot define it
Shouldn’t rational people only believe what’s proven at the time? Not that it can’t change, we’re finding out new shit all the time. But believing in a magic sky man without evidence is ludicrous.
i agree. i do believe a bit of theory is necessary
Okay firstly Hindi is a language, what you are talking about is followers of the religion Hinduism who are called Hindus.Secondly not everybody in India is Hindu. Yes, it is a Hindu majority country, but India also consists of millions of Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, and so many other religions that it would simply be too much for me to list off the top of my head.
Yeah, its simplyfied, but i thought it would get my point accross.Usually the children adopt their parents religion, before they even are able to walk.And in a country where 80% of the people are christian (or any other religion) the most parents are likely to be christian as well, thusly most children born are also christian.And in most countries there is only one major religion. So its almost determined which religion (most of) the children will adopt in this or that region.In contrary to something like, The soil is sacred and blessed by this or that god, thusly deterning the religion of the people.
So what you’re essentially saying is if a child is born into a family that follows a certain religion the child will adopt that religion too? That is true, but it’s certainly not the case for all religious people.I’m speaking as a Muslim because I am one, but I know and know of people who are from non-Muslim families who are Muslims, because they converted.My point being religion isn’t always inherited, and even when it is, that doesn’t mean the person hasn’t looked at other religions and came to their own conclusion that the religion they follow is the truth.
But it’s certainly a red flag for a “god”.
Why? I could say "you are an atheist because you live in the west, therefore atheism not true"
Only if geography was the biggest attribute of atheism. It isn’t. Access to information is.
If you give me a place where someone was raised, I could tell you with near certainty what their family’s religion is.
Prob right. Now it’s an impediment. Ironic huh?
Yeah a little bit. It's not just parents though. Those who didn't conform to their tribe's traditions also didn't last long. But yeah, it stultifies greater human progress. That is because we have never been killed because we collectively destroyed are environment ourselves before.
Atheism is rising.
Sounds made up
So, wealth doesn't exist? Or it's only valid in dollars?
Making fun of question
Don’t think that’s particularly true. Born into rich families- for sure. But geography is literally the biggest factor for predetermining religious beliefs.
Meaning it’s obvi made up.
so? what the point?