Who is more privileged in western society? Men or Women?

[Watermelonoma]

For the TL:DR crowd, my take boils down to this: Women often live together in their opaque bubbles, and guys often live alone at sea, swimming in misconceptions and self delusions. It has been said many times over that men and women do not fully understand each other, and this couldn't be more right when it comes to dating. There are a lot of misconceptions about what men and women want, and how men and women act. There are only a few occasions however where we get to really see a person from one side of the fence actually attempt to put on the shoes of the people on the other side, and challenge their own conceptions of the experiences the other gender faces. Today however, we are fortunate to have one such example of "crossing the isle" with a woman named Norah Vincent who identifies herself as a lesbian, who underwent a full makeover to make herself look like a fairly convincing man. She did this as a social experiement to really see what it was like to be a guy. This take will be based on her findings in the video. It's a brilliant video and well worth the watch!

How Men Treat Other Men - The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Lets begin with the first experiment Norah did, which was to infeltrate a male space at a bowling alley (starts around 3 minutes in), where she tried to see if men would be nice and accept her into their circle as a complete nobody as women often do with other women, or would they shun "him" as an unknown element of their club. So the good of what she found wasn't really surprising to me. The men accepted her with open arms, and what she learned is that we guys have a different way of showing affection for fellow guys than girls do. We are way more into banter and putting people in our circle down, not because we hate each other, but its just our way of having a laugh, destressing from all the bullcrap that's out there, not taking life or ourselves too seriously, etc. In some ways, you could say its a bit of unconscious social grooming that we do in order to prepare us for the real world when it comes to approaching women (a subject we are going to get into quite soon here), dealing with rejection, and simply not having the same kind of support networks that our female counterparts often have when they have feelings they need expressing. I liken it to the way monkeys will groom other monkey's in the wild. I find that girls often don't understand this side of men, and think we are just mean for the sake of being mean. That's often not the case. What else she found however, the more ugly side, was that men really lacked a sense of intimacy towards each other. Within male circles, there really isn't much when it comes to finding comfort in other men. Unless we know a guy VERY well, its a very uncomfortable experience going to guys when things are bothering us emotionally, which I find is an area that girls are historically better than us at. Even worse is simply the lack of attention this often gets in the media, and the way men are often perceived, as people with little emotion, or lacking intimate feelings. The sad truth is, we often do, but no one cares to ask, and so no one cares to tell.

Men and Sex - Why do we seemingly crave it so much in the dating world?

So the next part of the video, at around 7 minutes in, Norah goes to a strip club to experience what it was that guys got out of it. Now this was a very interesting part for me, because as a lesbian, you would think that Norah would at least be a little turned on by it. Not so. She wasn't aroused AT ALL. From her perspective, she saw the whole thing as guys trying to fullfill an urge that they just had to do, almost biologically so. Now, I do think times have changed somewhat since the early 2000's, as very few guys i know of actually go to strip clubs. Today, its all about porn and escorts, but the point isn't lost. Norah believes that at the core of things, male sexuality is more of a bodily function, whereas for women its more mental. What i gather from this part of the video is that despite what seems to be a biological imperative amongst men, we still have a longing for intimacy, except that our biology makes us equate sexual experiences more with intimacy than women do. Norah believes its due to the fact that guys have so much more testosterone coursing through our bodies, the urge to have more sex is so much harder for us to resist than it is for women.

Funny enough, I recently answered a question by a friend of mine on here named @Queen_naki5 and she was questioning why all the guys, even the nice ones, always seem so interested in having sex. To quote her,

I'm sick of it! I haven't really met much genuine people so far. I feel like most guys that I meet are after sex, even if they appear to be genuine, kind and educated. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING SEX, my thing is, I can't have meaningless sex with just anyone. I can't just sleep with a guy on the 2nd/3rd date.

When I look at the views and complaints by women, and juxtapose them with the views of men, I come to the conclusion that women may not fully understand the way men view intimacy and vice versa. It's almost impossible for a woman to understand the male perspective on this fully without being a man, but my advice would be to look at your need for a mental connection with men in order to like them. Look at it seriously, and remind yourself why its very necessary for you to have this in order to feel like you've connected with a guy. Now take that thought, and replace "mental connection" with "sexual connection". Imagine that instead of that mental connection you needed before, you now have this desire for sexual intimacy so deep that nothing else really comes close to it. It's not that you aren't a loving and genuine person....its just that you have this imprint within your mind, almost biologically stamped, to now equate love with sex. It's hard to understand a man's biology if you aren't a man, but if you look at the issue of sex in dating from this new perspective, it really shines a whole new light on the matter. In some ways, women who look down on men for being highly sexual in nature are like the kid, who after inheriting and living off of millions of dollars from his parents that he never earned, makes the statement that the poor are poor because they are lazy and should learn to work for a living. Easy for him to say, correct? Its a deeply-seeded misconception of a real biological drive within men, not a malicious drive, to have sexual intimacy. It's a misconception born out of the fact that women don't have as strong a biological drive for sex. They are born with an almost resistance to this biological urge, similar to the way that some kids are born into a wealthy family. They did nothing to earn it. It just is. But those who lack the ability to introspectively think, will look at men and expect them to behave exactly as women do, just as my hypothetical kid will look at the poor and expect them to take care of themselves exactly as he takes care of himself, even though they weren't born with the same advantages. What's worse is that there are actually two driving forces that make men want to be more sexual. There is the natural, biologically-induced drive to have sex and then there's the artificial, socially-driven force that makes men feel like "less of a man" for not having many sex partners. This is the reason why choosing to insult a man by calling him a virigin has far more impact on him than it would on a girl. Different biological urges, different social pressures.

Lets be absolutely clear though....What we've done here is stripped all the nuance away from this issue, and brought it down to a barebones understanding of what is going on. In reality, men are not slaves to biology, just as women aren't (similar to how not every poor person is simply a vicitim of circumstance). So as a man, you can't hide behind your biology to excuse certain behaviours, like sending dick picks to girls you don't even know, manipulating girls into sleeping with you, cheating on your girlfriend, etc. We live in a nuanced world, and because we live in a nuanced world, it often requires us to have a nuanced point of view. So when some women look at guys and their sex drives, I think they need to look at it from a different, more nuanced perspective. Remember that you are not a guy, and you don't fully understand how difficult both the natural and artificial impulse to be sexually active is to supress. It's not an on or off switch that men have....its more like a dial that we constantly train ourselves to tone down or ramp up when we need to...but its rarely ever completely gone. Understand the male perspective on sex in a similar way to how you would attempt to understand a poor woman who steals diapers and food from a corner store for her 8 month old child. What she did, at least in my opinion, was both wrong and right simultaneously. She has a biological need to protect and care for her child, but she might have went about satisfying that need in the wrong way. Norah came to the same conclusion that I did from this particular experiment. To quote her, "It [sex] is such a powerful drive, and because we [women] don't have testosterone in our systems, we don't understand how hard it is."

Men and the Approach - Do women understand how difficult it actually is?

The next thing Norah tried, was actually picking up girls in the same fashion that men do (@ around nine and a half minutes in), which is by making the first move, having a thick skin, and an affinity for adversity. This part of the video had me floored when I first watched it. Norah was immediately reminded of how women had all the power here, and she further commented on how easy it was to feel so crushed by a simple action a girl does to blow you off. I respected her so much for her commentary on this, as really not a lot of women are willing to approach guys regularly (not just for a day or two), and even fewer are willing to do approaches pretending to be a guy in order to see what its like for men. I won't reiterate everything she said here because her words speak for itself (which again, i encourage you to watch) but what really fascinated me was not how frequently she was blown off (rejection is just a part of life after all) but the attitude of the girls she received, just for approaching them and saying hi. It was almost as if she was doing something wrong just by showing even low level interest in them. I know some women like to blow off the difficulty in approaching women, especially women who approach guys and think that the two are the same thing. We've already established that men and women are very different biologically, and a half decent looking woman isn't going to get the same sort of consistent responses that a half decent guy will get approaching women. We're dealing with two very different games here...two very different sports you could say, and Norah's venture into our arena was pleasing to watch. What i gathered is that some women, because they haven't actually spent much time at all thinking about the matter, think that a guy approaching a girl he's attracted to and knowing the right thing to say to get things started is an easy feat. Because they think that way, they may feel like blowing guys off anyhow is quite alright, because they'll dust themselves off easily and approach someone who is more interested.

I think this part of the video is especially important for all those girls out there, and especially here on GaG who question why their crush, or guys in general won't approach them. When i answer these questions, i get the sense that a lot of these girls have no clue how much guts it takes to be someone who regularly approaches women you're attracted to but have never interacted with prior. Because of this lack of understanding, they think that simply showing up is enough of an impetus for guys to act on to approach them. The woman who has enough introspective intelligence to understand the difficulty in approaching themselves, is the woman smart enough to make certain changes in the way she communicates through body language (amongst other things) to actually get guys to notice and approach her.

Are guys unaware of what women REALLY want?

Oh we all would like to know for sure, wouldn't we! Well Norah covered that too, at least somewhat, starting at around 11 minutes in. This is a queue for guys, at least some of you, to get a pen and paper out because this one is more for you than it is for women. Now what I think will come to the surprise of many girls here (but not us men) is that Norah rarely enjoyed any of the dates she went on. Why? Because as a guy, she constantly felt this pressure that she had to prove herself, and if she didn't the girls may not show any interest. Basically she was saying that it was a one-way street....with most of the effort being done by her to make the girl feel like Norah was worth her time. Honestly, this is the experience of many guys, although I'm not sure about who's fault that really is. Without a doubt though, its at least a societal expecation that guys have to impress the girl in one way or another, whether it be through words or actions...and after just a handful of dates, Norah got tired of it. What was more interesting however was when she revealed that she was really a girl to these women. Those who made a connection with her were STILL interested in dating her more, even after being told that Norah was not a man. Mind you, these are self proclaimed heterosexual women. This was probably the most fascinating part of the video for me, because it spits in the face of what so many guys, especially here on GaG like to believe. This belief that the way you look is the be-all-end-all for women, and if you don't look a certain way (tall, dark and handsome) girls will not like you. It's such a lazy analysis of the female mind, and in my opinion, its often used by guys looking for an excuse as to why they suck with women. It's easier to say that women only want rich guys or model-looking guys, than it is to say that women want guys who are mentally stimulating. The latter cannot feasibly be changed on the guys part, whereas the truth requires you to actually consider the possibility that the way you think is incorrect and needs to be worked on. Norah was neither rich, nor all that great looking (I mean she was a girl dressed as a guy for goodness sake -_-) and even though she lied, the connection she made with some of these girls was so strong that these women were able to forgive all that and continue dating her. The guys who continue to believe that the way you think and act can never outweigh the way you look with women are beyond retarded my eyes...because the empircal evidence to the contrary is just too readily available nowadays to continue having this view. Looks matter, but what comes out of your mouth matters just as much. Sometimes moreso.

Another interesting thing I took away from this was that Norah's belief of what women wanted did a complete 180. Her view now is that many girls actually want a manly man versus the "woman in a man's body". Now she's just one person, but I do find it interesting nonetheless that her view of what women seemed to want did a total change once she actually went into the dating world as a guy. There's a lot of talk today about girls and their apparent "double speak"...how they say they want a sweet, sensitive guy who does a, b and c, but in reality they end up sleeping with a jerkoff who does x, y and z. I won't get too deep into that here, but its an interesting coincidence that what she thought women wanted turned out to be the complete opposite when she really sat down and started to pick women's brains.

My Conclusion - There are very real differences between the way men and women operate socially...but the problem is that despite this fact being obvious, we continue to act as if it isn't

What I learned from this is that many men still have no idea what women want, and are often too self deluded to learn what is and what isn't true. Norah's experiences in dating was really just a reminder for me of something that I and at least some other men already know, which is that if you're looking for something real and meaningful in the dating world, it is less bad to be an unattractive man, than it is to be an unattractive woman. Do note that i bolded "less bad". I do not mean that dating is a breeze for an unattractive guy. What I am saying is that you probably would not survive as an unattractive girl trying to pick up the opposite sex, because for all women's faults, they are undeniably more forgiving than men are where looks are concerned. Men today are still largely valued for our utility value, whereas women are largely valued for thier looks. A man who looks bad can still fullfill his societal role, and women recognize this. A woman who looks bad fails her societal role automatically at birth, and men recognize this too....which is why you won't often see an amazing looking guy with an unattractive woman. You'll see the reverse however, much more often than not.

I also learned (or should i say was reminded) that many girls still live in a bubble when it comes to dating and social dynamics. Some of them lack almost complete understanding of the male perspective in this area, and many seem to not care. I've been trying to figure out the right word for this mentality. It's not really an entitled mentality, as some guys would put it. It's more of an elitist mentality, where some women have an artificially high value of themselves, so much so that they are prompted to look down on a guy who had the ordasity to say hi to them (which partly explains why some women clung so strongly to that viral video a while back of the model walking through new york who apparently associated "harassment" with guys simply saying hello to her), or to come to a date expecting the guy to entertain and prove themselves as if they were vying for a lucrative position at a prestigous law firm. If one were to ask me, the cause of this has mostly to do with social conditioning. Women are pursued so often (especially online) that for some, it gives them an artificially high ego, allowing them to feel empowered enough to act any way they want because at the end of the day, guys will still pursue them. I think Bill Burr, one of the great comedians of our time said it best, "no one corrects them because they all want to fuck 'em." Part of the problem is that some women lack that introspective intelligence, the part of ones brain that allows a person to look at themselves and ask "Am I really so important...so valuable...that I can harshly blow a guy off in this manner for having the balls to approach me, or is there a happy medium to rejection which allows me to be both soft and direct at the same time?"

There's a lot here for both guys and girls to learn. I skipped a couple other experiments she did due to lack of space, but i hope all of you watch the video to its entirety. I hope the experience, if not educational, was at least intersting enough to have you asking more questions by the end of it. This experience of coarse is one sided, as I have yet to see a man able to pull something like this off and try being in a woman's shoes. That's a video I'd love to watch. But for now, this will have to do. The last interesting thing I got from Norah's experience was actually her final words, which I'll post for those who have not watched the video. Here was her response:

I am so much closer to myself than I ever was. I really like me. I really like being me, and i really love being a woman. I like it [being a woman] more now, because I think its more of a privilege

Cheers,

Watermelonoma

[Mustachekitteh]

This makes me feel bad for guys and want to give them a hug.

Though for me when it came to dating I normally would always come up to the dude first. Then would be the first to say I had a crush on them and felt more. Then I would see if the dude felt the same. Then I would ask if they wanted to go out. I'm like some women that HATE waiting for the guy to make the first move. The waiting sometimes seems like it takes forever and will drive a person mad.

It is VERY frustrating when some guys won't open up about their feelings and what they are truly thinking. I know this is a 2 way street since women will do that same. Though I can't really speak from a guys perspective. So I shall give my perspective as a women. When a guy won't open up emotionally and truthful about how they truly feel. It can make the female sad and not cared about. Like they guy doesn't trust her enough to be 100% open with no matter how emotional it might be. Like they don't trust her enough to cry in front of her if he's really about to break. A man can put up a persona where nothing can hurt him and be invincible for the world to see. But once he's with the women he loves. He should take that persona down and be himself and tell her all that is bothering him. Like with my boyfriend I don't feel like I'm as smart as him. He's always doing things for me computer wise since I don't know how to do them. I don't want him having to do everything for me. So if I can help take away the mental emotional stress of everyday life off of him. I will do it because I love being there for him. Letting him know even if he fails horribly or not good enough. To me he's still perfect and I still see him as an amazing person.

Also to me it's easier to have guy friends than it is to have female friends. I don't know why but I've always struggled having any female friend. Like they are constantly judging you and if you do anything weird your kicked out asap. Some looks females give could melt the flesh off of you. Men do come off as more relaxed and less judgmental. I'm more scared of other women than I am of men. lol

[Watermelonoma]

hey! Well i'll tell you this. One of the main reason why guys aren't super open with their feelings with girls they are with is because they fear not only being seen as less of a man, but most importantly, they fear being seen as less attractive to the women they are in relationships with. It's not attractive, in the mind of a man, to be depressed, to cry, to feel like a man child, or w/e other negative emotions you can think of. I understand your perspective as a girl, as it makes sense to me. But as a guy, i can tell you that we aren't really trained to view these emotions as things we should be expressing too often, except behind closed doors where no one can see. The kind of intimacy that girls express with each other can backfire for us men if people view us hetero guys as gay for it... because we do value not just how men view us, but women as well. Especially in a relationship, where the constant fear is that the girl will loose attraction to you

[Watermelonoma]

so if you're looking to create a good space for the men in your life, particularly your boyfriend... you have to reassure him that expressing his emotions, the sadder ones, won't make you view him as less sexy, less attractive, or as a burden... because these things are what guys fear quite a bit when amongst women. Amongst other men, the fear is usually just that you'll be seen as gay or too moody. So you really just have to reassure him that you will always still look at him with those same eyes that you have when you watch him get up in the morning... the eyes which say "wow, i really landed a sexy man". if you can promise him that, he will open up to you eventually

[muspelhem_5]

You sound awesome. But honestly, not all people are that awesome, most are mere mortals.

What you said about opening up: it's really risky for a guy. You risk rejection. Most women say they want their guy to open up, but in reality, they frown upon weakness and are judgmental if they do not agree with the guy.

Example: I was in a relationship with a woman, and I opened up about what I wanted sexually (something women are ALWAYS complaining we don't do). It wasn't even something far out. But my girlfriend disagreed with it and clammed up. No attempt to understand, no interest, just rejection and judgement.

Example: I was dating a woman, and she asked me how I was feeling, I said I was blue, she asked why, and I admitted that I had some addiction problems. Her reaction: TMI, goodbye.

It's fair enough to reject people, but I'm tired of complaints about guys not being open books, when the reality is that most women are pretty darn intolerant of guys' dreams and desires.

[Mustachekitteh]

@muspelhem_5 thank you :) I remember as a kid so like from pre-school to elementary. I never really had female friends and mostly just male friends. I would always challenge them to races and stuff to prove I was just as good as them when it came to physical stuff, lol.

Yeah those 2 chicks sounds horrible. I don't really get why they would have done that because it didn't seem like you were being weak at all and just saying the truth. I really wonder why women have started to do that.

[muspelhem_5]

That sounds cool :) It's great when someone from the opposite sex wants to hang out and do fun stuff :)

They weren't horrible, it's just naturally off-putting to them. And they didn't need me, they had other options.

[Accipiter]

Very interesting. This take shines new light on areas most people never would even think about. I admire Norah for being bold enough to walk a mile in a man's shoes. I think one thing we can take from this is that we ought to realize that men and women both have different biological and societal perks and double standards both sexes have to face. I get really tired of feminists saying men always have it better. And MRAs are just the same when they say women have all the advantages. Neither of them ever seem to attempt to try to imagine what it's like for the other. I think what we need to take from this study by Norah is that we need to acknowledge and appreciate the difficulties and perks men and women both have to face.

That said, one thing that perplexes me about that video is how Norah learned how hard and ego damaging it can be for men to be rejected by a woman. She's a lesbian, right? Shouldn't she already know what it's like to hit on other women and get rejected? Could it be that lesbians are nicer about rejections toward women who hit on them?

[Ozanne]

Wow. What a very interesting read and video. Thank you for sharing all of this, and your thoughts on it all. It's probably the most interesting myTake I've read to date.

I have sooooo many things I want to discuss about it, but since I don't have much time right now to type it all out, I want to say that in my personal experience, the reason I didn't approach men much when I was single is because of how I feel when I'm out and just want to enjoy my time alone with my friends or my own company. I don't want to feel interrupted while focusing on a friend I was with. So on the other side of it all, I wouldn't approach men because knowing how much *I* hated it, I didn't want to intrude on someone's good time either. I wanted to be respectful of their space. I knew how it felt to have someone just come along and bug you, so I didn't do it back. I felt like relationships were planned, as in, you met someone at work or through friends, not chance meetings.

Also, the part about men losing intimacy and not having anywhere to put these feelings is a huge breakthrough, for me anyway. It makes me consider my male friends and my husband if they have to go through guessing games with us women or to feel like shit if they forgot to pick up bread on the way home. When the small stuff is too much, they probably think they have absolutely no where to go with the big stuff. And the thought of sharing with men their feelings is a common womanly-trait, and to feel demasculinzed is the last thing they need, so they forgo it altogether, just to salvage some masculinity.

You never hear of masculine pride. I've never heard a guy (except David Bowie) say, "Gee I'm glad I'm me, I love being a man, I embrace my masculinity and have a relationship with my manliness." He'd be laughed out of a room. Women say they are proud to be women and it's nothing to hear it. So to hide all the things you really like about being masculine would be seen as silly. One more thing a man oppresses within himself.

All these things, it really is an eye-opener to really understand the complexities of a man. Makes me love you guys all the more!

(Now Norah... sheesh, did anyone else think as a guy she looked like James Spader, but as a woman she looked like Judd Nelson?)

[Octavius]

I have that same mentality about asking people out. I just feel like I'm interrupting them so I usually just leave them alone even though I have the huge urge to talk to them.

[Ozanne]

Yeah I always felt like rejection was shitty enough from friends, much less a complete stranger! I chatted up many men when I was single and got let down easy by guys and it sucked. I quit doing it after a while because I thought, "Yep, I hate this shit too. Why am I doing it to others?" I thought the best opportunities was when you were thrown in to socializing the with opposite sex such as working on projects together at work, or joining clubs or sports. To do what Norah did as Ned was inteusive, and I just don't like that sort of approach,

[Ozanne]

*intrusive

[Watermelonoma]

i'm glad you liked it :) So when it comes to your husband and your male friends, i think its important to first be aware of the two different fears that men have when it comes to being more intimate and expressive of their more sadder emotions. The first fear, which is usually the fear men have amongst other men, is the fear of being labelled as gay. i can tell you that as a straight guy, absolutely no guy who likes women wants to be seen as gay amongst his peers. Notice how in the video when Norah was with the guys at the bowling alley, they immediately associated her more emotive nature as a guy as being gay... and when you want to express yourself as an emotionally stable and virile man who loves women, having the world see you as gay is one of the worst feelings in the world... because its translated as a failure to perform, a failure to portray your masculinity and a failure to make yourself into a man that women would want.

[Watermelonoma]

now when it comes to men's relationship with girlfriends or their wives, the fear becomes being seen

your husband, if there is any fear there at all, its the fear that you will start to view him as weak, a man child, and hence less attractive and less able to take care of the household. The idea of it being anything but a bad thing to be overly expressive about our more depressive/sad emotions with a girl we're attracted to is really unheard of for a lot of guys. Girls say its what they want out of men, but you don't often see girls associating guys who they've seen cry before as sexy.

[Watermelonoma]

So if you worry about what may be going on in your husband's head, i think its a good idea to reassure him that you won't think less of him, and particularly that you won't feel less attracted to him, if he expressed more of the feelings that are going on inside him... the things he may feel ashamed to talk about. The kinds of things he'd never talk to his guy friends about out of fear that they would see him as moody or gay (even though he's not). Basically, you're creating a real environment for him where he feels like he will not loose that look that you give him when he wakes up in the morning... that look of endearment and attraction that men so often crave from their significant others

[Ozanne]

Good points. I think I'm going to try an experiment with my husband. :)

[Azara]

sex connection was like mental connection doesn't account for sex with strangers.

some people women and men like cavil sex. the people who want them for themselves sodding like that. the reason we only hear about women not liking it is bc socially women are supposed to be pure and not want nasty dirty sex unless its with someone who owns them. women like sex many women are promiscuous. raising one or two anecdotes about women who want the guy who doesn't actually want them to want more than sex doesn't change that. if someone doesn't like you they dont like yo. its not bc they want sex that you feel unlined. if someone likes you wanting sex won't get in the way of that. it will enhance it. some people just want sex and are upfront about it. some people want lots of love and lots of sex and have relationships. some people want love and no sex and have sexless relationships. some people lie pretending they like someone just to get sex. so they appear detached. bc they dont care. not bc sex is more important to men or bc men need sex like a human being needs intellectual connection.

if you want to understand what someone wants try communication instead of trying to put people into a box depending upon sex. if you try to understands a person based on their genitals you will be wreaking these articles for the next 30 years and never get closer to a true understanding.

biologically no one is valued more for looks bc you can't exist or sustain other life on looks. even the argument about men choosing attractive women bc it shows they are fertile is bulllshit. you can be highly fertile and healthy and still not aesthetically pleasing.

the worth of a person is in their contribution not in whether someone wants to fuck them. utility is a general function of all sexes. segregating men as utility and women as looks is just sexist propaganda. and you didn't start it. its someone else ideas so you can't take credit for it. but you are condoning it by repeating it. if hyoid stop doing that you might be able to see it outside of yourself and realize how subhuman it is. maybe. if we live ing a culture that reduces women to looks that does not mean that is where a woman value resides. and repeating it every week won't change that.

a manly man vs a person who is like a woman but looks like a man is meaningless, bc there is no set personality of a man vs a woman. there are overlapping in any study in any direction. you can not say this is a woman this is a man.

[Azara]

without turning people into things. we all learn evolve adapt change have experienced influences tastes perceptions feelings... you're referring to your or someone else expectation of a person with certain genitalia. and for every person you find who fits your list, you'll find many who do not. including the one who fits your list. people are not static and we are not born into genders. we grow into them based on cultural expectations and we can grow out of them as well.

there may be differences between women and men just as there are differences between people. but the differences that everyone looks for are already decided before proof exists. anytime a study comes out the results are used to support a pre existing prejudice.

as long as you start off with an answer you'll never be able to look objectively at the question.

I've yet to see a single person come up with a post searching for the 'truth' that does not begin saturated with bias. thats not analysis thats casuistry.

[Anonymous]

Isn't it obvious?
- Rape laws/rights Men have few to none
- False rape claim victim rights for males none, accuser criminal rights = victim rights
- Domestic Violence rights Men have few, men who call cops on abusive partner most likely to be arrested himself.
- Mandatory arrest policy against men for DV claims even if apparently false
- Custody rights Men have few to none
- School system is geared towards females
- Sentencing Disparity against men for equal crimes as women.
- Paternity Fraud against males
- Male victims of rape still forced to pay child support
- Scholarship Discrimination against men
- Hate Crime Discrimination against men
- War Death – 99.9% male
- Conscription - Selective service is required only of men, and is tied to voting rights.
- Workplace Deaths - 92% male
- Suicide - almost 80% male
- Homicide victims - overwhelmingly likely to be male
- less than 3% of all death penalties have been female
- Homelessness - 62% male (also the percent of females have special shelters and programs to help them which the males don't)
____________
Sources:
law-journals-books.vlex.com/.../federal-rule-evidence-dangerous-frontier-53568721
falserapearchives.blogspot.com/.../...eb-1994.html
www.archive.org/details/FalseRapeAllegations
https://www.falserape.net/falserapeafa.htm
https://www.saveservices.org/falsely-accused/survey
collegestats.org/.../
https://www.terry.uga.edu/~mustard/sentencing.pdf
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/women-and-death-penalty
https://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
www.prweb.com/.../prweb10741752.htm?PID=4003003

[Opinion Owner]

... cont

nationalparentsorganization.org/.../3977-researcher-what-hap-3977
www.theatlantic.com/.../
www.sascv.org/.../carolettaijcjs2010vol5iss1.pdf
www.law.fsu.edu/.../kelly.pdf
https://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p60-225.pdf
https://www.wnd.com/2006/02/34861/
www.ageofconsent.com/comments/numberthirtysix.htm
www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/legally-obscene/
www.saveservices.org/.../

[Opinion Owner]

... cont
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2913504/
https://www.collegesportscouncil.org/20090715.pdf
www.washingtontimes.com/.../
https://thewall-usa.com/information.asp
https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf
https://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0009.pdf
https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/svpjri1112.pdf
https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=2221

-END-

[RedHairedGirl]

Men are the ones who make all this happen... when I showed my friends a video of a guy getting assaulted by a girl because he didn't want to have sex with her, my male friends were all calling him gay and stuff while my female friends were sorry for him and blamed the girl.

[Riggers]

@RedHairedGirl ''Men are the ones who make all this happen''...
You cannot be serious? Like... oh my... i can't even handle what you just said...
Are you that oblivious to the real world? 0_o

[Opinion Owner]

Ohh there ya go... it's all men's' fault. I was expecting that response.
It is not MEN'S fault... it's societies fault. The SAME society feminist claim "oppress them" a so called "patriarchy" in which males hold primary power. Did you see that part... MALES HOLD PRIMARY POWER. How is it that males hold power if these items occur. If a "patriarchy" existed NONE of these items would be what they are because men would be 1st class and women would be 2nd class, but this is the opposite of what we see.
Women are given lenience in everything, assistance in everything, credence with claims, hold power over many items in society without justification or reason, can openly criticize without fear or judgment.

So when the question is "who holds privilege"... regardless of your excuse, the answer is Women.

[sdistotallyme]

Thanks. The thing is I'm trying to have a good attitude and not fall into the gender war bit. Despite that I think many men underestimated the insidiousness of feminism. We need to bring the facts to the table and fight back. However I do think the tide is turning in the last few years (slightly)

[vishna]

First, I really really really really enjoyed your take :) And I have several comments.

I definitely have introspective intelligence. C'mon man :'>

I'm the woman who is way too nice, and puts guys down easily so they think it's cool to try and try and try (or maybe I just attract the never give up type guy)

Unattractive women have the pro of having vaginas (so they can at least get sex a little easier than an unattractive man) BUT when it comes to relationships, it's harder for an unattractive woman to find a partner. Like you said, men have other skills in our society than looks, and sadly for a lot of people an ugly woman is a pretty useless woman (she has no redeeming qualities)

Nora's experiment and her piece with ABC is wonderful. And I get what you're talking about, how women brush men off. But I feel like it's a complicated issue. However, every woman treats random men differently.

This is another My Take in which I could rant forever. Great take, really gets you thinking. This would make a great dialogue :)

[Watermelonoma]

"I definitely have introspective intelligence. C'mon man :'>"

oh i know you do :) I'm just talking about what i think may be the problem in certain cases, with certain women. But as i was stating in the take, unattractive women who actually want something real... and not just superficial sex, have a true uphill battle. A lot of guys, especially on here will dismiss this... which i largely attribute to a "woe is me" mentality... but the societal standards of generations past are still installed today, which means that as you say, a girl who is ugly is often seen as pretty unimportant automatically. You can see this today when people criticize feminism by saying that its just a movement for ugly white women. It's a jab, a subtle one, which speaks to the lack of value/importance women have when they are viewed as unattractive... and its a line of attack that ironically speaks to why feminism may still be necessary in the 21st century. Glad you enjoyed the take though! :)

[vishna]

Your words=so true.

[Coffinspire]

I loved this! Loved that experiment and everything about it. I also feel a tad bit guilty, but not really. I'll explain, I feel guilty because I never knew that guys were expected to hide their emotions like that (I mean I knew it but I guess didn't really believe it, but now things are making sense lol) But I don't really feel bad because in most of my relationships, the problems arose because THEY couldn't tell me what exactly was wrong, they just acted out. Women analyze their feelings and figure out the cause of what they are feeling, so we know what it is and speak about it freely, where men don't even know whats wrong, they just feel like crap. Also, I don't feel bad because even in nature, male animals literally FIGHT to get some action and EARN the RIGHT to mate. So just because men have a natural urge to mate, doesn't mean that you have the genetics to back it up (so to speak) I also feel guilty because they don't really know how to connect intimately, which is a huge issue for women and that's why women get so close (even hetero women would like to date a woman, myself included) because there are no barriers and women talk freely and openly with each other about literally everything and anything. My husband has recently been spending more time with men than usual because of work and I'll tell you, the intimacy has just fallen so dramatically because most men are so closed off. So obviously the sex declined because I don't want meaningless sex, so now we have the classic man and woman interaction because he somehow got reminded that he was the opposite sex and talking to me like he used to (openly and freely which is why I love him so much) was somehow not acceptable. I feel so guilty that men feel like they have to put on this show to attract women, if guys got in more touch with how they're feeling and learn how to communicate

[Coffinspire]

Also, when it comes to the sex drive thing, that is so sad. Intimacy is so beautiful, and I know guys love it too, but women can tell when a guy is just having sex. I don't know if it has to do with the way they move or their energy but for women, feeling intimate is the greatest feeling we will ever have and I really think the same goes for men. Men focus so much on sex though, because they feel that's how you get intimacy and they never learned that as children. Women have non-sexual intimate relationships with their parents, their friends and men just stay away from it altogether and avoid it at all costs, which is one of the only things that baffles me about men. Instead of holding a relationship close to them, they keep it at an arms length in fear of getting hurt, where women bond so strongly with each other, that losing a friend is as devastating as a divorce. I don't think men really grasp the concept of intimacy, and therefore have trouble relating to women.

[Coffinspire]

And I think women have a hard time relating to men because men don't give them anything to relate to. Me personally, I struggle with people talking to me with nothing behind it. Like small talk pisses me off so badly and I found that with men, they like to avoid heavy discussion, I mean they'll listen to me jabber about something I feel passionately about (kind of like this topic) but I never hear a guy really talk about something he's passionate about and that's where women can really see what you have inside. So I see why that small talk jabber shit doesn't work. I feel guilty for that too because I'm one of those women that write men off like that. I have approached men, and it was pretty much the way I would have liked to be approached. Slow and steady. I weigh my odds first, come up with an agenda (what to talk about not involving a date) and talk a little bit and read their body language, tone, what they're saying etc . I never approach expecting a date or sex, just for a convo

[Watermelonoma]

Yeah i knew you would have a lot to say on this :) So firstly, I'll say that from a guys perspective... its very hard to given women what they seem to want out of men (ie. a manly man, which even norah confessed was the feeling she got after dating all these women as a guy), while still feeling like we're able to be as "feely" as we'd like to be without being seen as like a walking tampon. The phrase "man up" exists for a reason right? We're expected to be tougher... to be the rock, the beacon at the end of a dark tunnel. Men don't share, because oftentimes it seems like women will be less attracted to you as a man if you're always going on about your deep feelings and such. The last thing a guy wants in a relationship is to have their woman feel like they are nursing a man child or something. This is why the kind of intimacy you may be looking for is often lacking. It's super hard to live up to this dualist expectation of being half monk, half hitman

[Watermelonoma]

When it comes to sex though, as i was saying... men have a difficult time not being sexual, because we've got two pressures driving us. The biological one being just the sheer amount of testosterone we've got, especially at a young age, that just makes us perpetually horny, sadly. Then there's the artificial driving force, which is this social narrative that you are less of a man if you don't have many sexual partners, if you are inexperienced in bed, and God forbid a virgin. It's almost the exact opposite for women. You have far lower levels of testosterone to deal with, so resisting these natural sexual urges is not as difficult... and the social narrative for women is to avoid having too much sex, as it makes you less chaste. So a girl will often find it easier to refrain from sex, especially meaningless sex, while a guy will always feel like its the be all end all due to his biology and the societal pressure to perform

[Watermelonoma]

It's also not easy approaching a girl and talking about your passions right away, because they oftentimes just want to talk about themselves, or they just don't care about your passions really because they don't know you that well. We use small talk to build up to something more meaningful... just to get the ball rolling sort of speak. Its a nerve wracking experience, particularly for the uninitiated, to approach girls and give her the remarkable perfect conversation that she envisioned her dream guy giving her. i've come to believe that its more important to be interested than it is to be interesting when it comes to women. Talking with women and getting them to date you after, from what it seems to me, is not like playing a piano, where you need to find and hit every note perfectly to get the melody... and when you do she'll just immediately fall in your arms.

[Watermelonoma]

That's why i'm not always super concerned with every word, because the moment you start thinking "ugh, what the hell am i going to say to her, and how am i going to get the ball rolling" you, as a guy, end up staying too long in your head and convincing yourself not to even approach at all out of fear that you won't say the exact right thing. That's just my perspective as a guy anyhow

[Coffinspire]

Yeah def don't talk about your passions right away. I agree usually women would like to be heard first, because the number one complaint women have about men is that they don't listen... which usually they don't because they're like okay so how am I gonna get laid, which explains the stand-offish result. To me, the idolizing women for sex, only gives us more power over men. Guys in long term relationships, would rather jerk off than have sex with the same person for too long. And oversexualizing women makes the drive worse for men. Women have a drive to reproduce too, but the difference is we aren't so desperate for it. People like you and I, talk like gender isn't an issue at all, and I think connecting as people instead of genders should be far more accepted. Men and women can do more together than apart, and focusing on a courting ritual puts more stress on both genders than it has to.

[Coffinspire]

I also feel like men put themselves in those positions the majority of the time. I don't think there is as much hype about women asking men out because for women, it's connecting and talking to someone, and sex crosses our mind maybe a handful of times. Men are practically DESPERATE and pathetic and will ask out numerous girls and when one says yes they get this unrealistic ego boost and all respect for her goes down the drain. The guys that I actually had a good relationship with (not very many) sat and talked to me for hours, even days (not in a row lol) and got to know me very well before we officially became a couple. And that was no pressure what-so-ever it was great.

[Watermelonoma]

the thing is, as as guy... we really can't afford to not spread ourselves out with women, else we'd probably end up single. Women are highly selective by nature, which makes the idea of approaching few women very impractical for a guy who really doesn't want to be single. Think about it this way. In a bad job market where you are unemployed, and the competition is somewhat fierce, what do you do? Do you approach just a couple jobs here and there and hope for the best, or do you send out as many apps as possible, and from the few that reply back... you take a look at those options, work with them, dissect them, filter through what the best offer was and go for it? Dating for men is not too different. The jobs and their employers are like women... highly selective in a market saturated with other possible candidates. The unemployed individual is like the man, who instead of putting all their eggs in one or two baskets, spreads themselves out first, knowing full well that they will

[Watermelonoma]

receive mostly rejections. But they do this strategy because they know that some jobs will reject them, even if they are decent candidates, but there may be factors out of their control which will prevent them from being selected. A guy can't put all his focus on a small amount of women... at least not right away. What you call desperation is what another may call strategizing

[Watermelonoma]

strategizing, as in actually figuring out first who is actually out there in a selective market who actually wants you first, by casting a wide net... then zeroing in on the ones who showed a least a little interest, where you then look to employ the things that you particularly want, like talking to you for hours and hours with meaningful conversation, and exerting a real genuine effort that makes you excited

[amphet11]

"even hetero women would like to date a woman, myself included" how can you consider yourself hetero then?

[hellionthesage]

So basicly its all mens fault? Even though as was stated in the video the man had to prove himself to the woman over and over and over. Despite the fact that they obviously wanted him to be the manly man ie not express his emotions. The fact is men and women are diffrent, why are you demanding men be like you? Isn't that just as wrong for men to demand that women stop acting like women and start acting like men? The problem isn't even that we lack intimacy, its that our source of intimacy is women, yet in our society women refuse to give us that. We are constantly being told to be like women, the irony being statistics show how well that works. Men who are stay at home dads are far more likely to be divorced by there wives. Men who tend to do house work (traditionaly female role) have half the sex as men who don't do. Women who make a lot of money tend to be single because they are always holding out for someone who makes more and the ones who do settle for someone who makes less divorce

[hellionthesage]

I think this is a very bad sign, that after seeing this your only real response was to essentially blame men. As if women do not take part in society, as if women do not raise men, as if women do not influence how men are by choosing certain types of men. Its really one sided. You should consider trying to understand men instead of demanding they change for you. We are biologicly and socialy inclined to act certain ways, and you and women are as much apart of that as they are. I think men are very well aware of there feelings its just that we deal with it diffrently and are now forced to repress them because women don't take them seriously.

[hellionthesage]

Also I would like to add about your comment, "I also feel like men put themselves in those positions the majority of the time. I don't think there is as much hype about women asking men out because for women, it's connecting and talking to someone, and sex crosses our mind maybe a handful of times." the reason this is the case is because men are the ones approaching you. A man knows that if he doesn't approach her, he will not have a relationship period. Woman have the advantage of being desired and thus can sit and wait about. No one is going to approach the guy, no woman is going to spend that much time and energy on him, if he doesn't give her what she wants she can move on to the next. You are literaly trash talking men in every one of your comments, you have not once attempted to understand there situation you still are looking at it through your own personal lens, this is one of many reasons why guys are disconnetcing from women. Because it seems none of them care about them.

[Coffinspire]

Well someone only read what I didn't feel bad about. So men don't get taken seriously for not repressing emotion. CONGRADULATIONS welcome to being feminine. You think guys look at me and take me seriously as a human being? No. A sex object? Absolutely. Don't tell me I don't know what it's like or what they're thinking, I freaking do, it's like clockwork and I've backed it up multiple times with friends and their bfs. Money has nothing to do with relationships, I've dated more guys without jobs than with jobs and loved every second of it. And yes, I do romantically dislike most men, and I think you would benefit more with me saying what I had issues with than saying oh you poor thing. Men don't have sex and then automatically get dumped because that's all their partner wanted out of them. I've approached men before and it's not difficult and I've been rejected, it doesn't really hurt, because I don't get my hopes up, they might have a girlfriend, but talking doesn't hurt

[Coffinspire]

And I understand not putting all of your eggs in one basket, obviously that works better. BUT I've been in a situation where this guy would come and flirt with me, and then go and flirt with my friend, and bounce back and forth and I was like... uh wtf that's not cute and you aren't a player, so I told him off. That takes the whole feeling special thing right the eff out of it. Almost all of my good relationships revolved around good non sexual intimate conversations and spending time together. Men want to know like immediately yes or no, then fuck no get away from me I'll find someone that looks at me as a person and I think asking us to do that isn't fair to either of us. If we say no we're bitchy. Everyone says I don't know how hard it is, I've approached people before, it's not effing hard! It will literally be like hey I like your shirt that's an awesome band and it's like cake from there, but men don't pay attention to any of that, they want their street cred or something

[Watermelonoma]

I think there are certain similarities, and also important differences between approaching women as a guy, and approaching guys, as a girl. The main difference being the fact that most guys go through life never being approached first by a woman with a romantic interest. When it does happen, since it's so rare, guys can often be far more flattered by the interaction than a woman will be, as she gets hit on in multiple different ways all the time. Guys know this, and the fear of being "just another guy" who ends up pissing her off because she's tired of male advances is a legitimate fear that I don't fully believe women have to fear when they approach guys. The similarity is that they both still take at least some basic level of courage to do. But you seem to have very strong views about guys approaching women when they see a girl they are attracted to. Do you believe this is wrong?

[muspelhem_5]

Very interesting thread.

"Men don't have sex and then automatically get dumped because that's all their partner wanted out of them."

Literally the first woman I ever slept with did that to me. And it hurt, but I accept it.

I agree with Take Owner that men can't afford to invest like 3 months of dating someone before they get laid. That is preposterous to expect. How many times have I invested time and effort and emotion in women who it turned out just liked me as a friend?

I'm just friggin' tired of women talking like their perspective is the CORRECT perspective, and ours is wrong. And that all comes back to the inherent biological curse/privilege of carrying the child, which makes women pickier, because their investment is bigger. The consequences of that privilege, namely talking like clueless, spoilt, insensitive brats, is a major turnoff, though. Not that anyone would care, because I'm a guy and hence disposable.

[Coffinspire]

Well I don't know any women that waited 3 months lol I always waited about a week. Another factor that plays in the miscommunication between men and women, which I've brought up before, is the fact that women live in fear almost daily because of men, I think I have every right to feel a little angry for being scared. Men can easily over power females, and being approached by tons of different guys that you don't know is scary! Some could be child molesters, rapists, murderers etc. We HAVE to be careful! Men don't live in fear of women trying to rape them, because it's almost impossible. Being a raging bitch is the only power we actually have, which is powerful I guess. Yes I have very strong views on how I would like to be approached, and I'll tell you exactly why. As men the best thing you could possibly do is approach a women like a friend or someone just talking because she happens to be standing next to you. You need to come off non-threatening and expecting nothing. If you've

[Coffinspire]

ever been approached, it's kind of startling to begin with because you have to switch your attention from whatever it was to whoever is talking to you, and you don't even get to actually look at the guy that is asking you to go have coffee with him because they want an answer so quickly, and then men think they have it hard thinking of something to say when they go talk to a woman, try having about 2 seconds because someone is staring at you waiting for an answer. Like I said before, the thing I feel the worst about is that men lack non sexual intimate relationships with each other, and then don't know how to have an intimate relationship with a woman, who practices that from a young age, and I think that's where the miscommunications start.

[thedevilwithin]

Sometimes i feel really sorry for guys, because they do have a lot of pressure placed upon them in regards to dating and it seems to really mess up their confidence. I mean girls have a lot of resources and open discussion about what men want. I feel like we learn how to dress for guys, how to make our eyes look bigger and more sultry through makeup, tones of exercise and fitness stuff to get us into better shape etc etc... I mean we are taught most of this through advertising and at an early age, cause of the whole sex sells thing. And by making ourselves more attractive and building ourselves up that way, we can build our confidence (obviously this can also backfire but i won't go into that). Men really aren't taught any of that at all. There are so many societal norms around female and feminine behavior and what allegedly gives women their worth, and there is absolutely no equivalent for men. No instruction manual on how to become a man and what women want or look for in one. Advertisers don't really get too much into it (other than the body spray/car route). They are not taught to allure, all they get is go for a cold approach and buy her a drink (advertisers again) which is like a terrible way to approach anyone and women who are more educated on seduction would never do this because it is so obviously more miss than hit.

[sdistotallyme]

Very good insight. Thanks.

[muspelhem_5]

Luckily, these people are trying to change that:

https://thematinggrounds.com/

[thedevilwithin]

Wow cool link, i bet it would be really interesting for women to read as well. Thanks for the link.

[JohnBelluci]

Pretty much everything you wrote, I agree with, yet do you know what pisses me off?
The fact that while I personally didn't really learn anything new here, a lot of people apparently did. WHY? Why is it new to them?

Everything you said here, should / could be, in 2015, like "kicking an open door".
It should be obvious. Whether we're talking about the biological aspect or the societal expectations aspect. It would benefit to all of us. Dating could be easier, marriage could last longer.
People like John Gray, in addition to scholars deconstructed ALL these stuff in either multiple books which became best sellers, or scientific journal articles, 20 years ago.

But it seems it's not obvious...
Instead, we witness here how many seem enlightened by this MyTake.

This, reveals (and this is really why it pisses me off) how much bullshit has been spread and maintained across the past decades in society, in order to blind the new generations from things that we ALREADY FIGURED OUT, and should have been integrated into common human knowledge a long time ago.

No instead what was done, was trying to make people believe that
- gender was a social construct,
- that male and female brain is identical,
- that we were perfectly interchangeable,
- that hormones (10-20 times the female level of testosterone, in a man) don't matter,
- that the only difference remaining, is our physical appearance.
- that we both (male and female) have the same expectations in dating
- [ insert any other relativist / ideological bullshit ]

This ignorance, which was purposely orchestrated, infuriates me, because you now have to deal with these clueless people on daily basis.

--------------------
Great myTake anyway man. ;)

[Watermelonoma]

Yeah, i think this has to do with what i summarized right at the beginning of the take.. which is that women live in bubbles, and men live alone in a sea of self delusion. When comes to some of these social relationship issues, I find that women don't often see beyond what's around them in their own microcosms, largely because they don't have to. They aren't charged with having to figure out men, because the social norms installed allows them to not really have to pursue men in any fashion. Ever hear the expression "know thy prey"? Well, if you want to express dating down into a more animalistic way, women do act like the prey which predatorial men chase. Because we need to chase, we are charged with having to figure women out quite a bit. Of coarse, that isn't to say that women don't have to figure men out either, but im trying to strip the nuance in all this down to more basic elements.

[Watermelonoma]

Now the problem with guys i find is that they are really too proud to actually remind themselves of the obvious. A lot of guys often think they already know the answer, and because of this, they ignore the obvious and go for what their own minds tell them what is right. Some, in my view, don't have the mentality of a student... the ever-learning pupil who does know some, but not all that there is to know about a certain subject matter. A student searches and seeks, while a master sits and lectures. Too many men think they are masters. This is why i try to follow the philosophy of listening to all but following none. There is a lot to learn from everybody, but strictly following one train of thought, especially a train of thought entirely derived from your own experiences and expectations is kind of foolish in my view, and i think this is the problem that tends to plague men. Anyhow, thanks for your input and im glad you enjoyed the take :)

[JohnBelluci]

"women living in bubbles"
that's why I said if these things were Taught to people (instead of gender focused ideological crap), it could hopefully burst their bubble.

"especially a train of thought entirely derived from your own experiences and expectations is kind of foolish in my view,"
Indeed. One's experience (unless you met like 500 women...) is far from being credible from a quantitative point of view. That's why I find more reliable to use as guidelines (not cold hard rules) information resulting from several experiences combined. That's pretty much what John Gray did in my opinion.
But I guess he would be slandered as a sexist pig nowadays...

[Anonymous]

You make many good points.

One thing that isn't talked about often, though, is that many women DO want a strong sexual connection. I think I've had as many conversations about sex as about love with female friends. It's just that, with less testosterone and also a brain that isn't impulsive, you end up tamping down your automatic impulse to just screw any guy you find hot. I have heard so many times, "I want to have sex with someone so much it's driving me crazy." But the impulse has to be pushed aside of the guy isn't interested or she's in a relationship with someone else or she thinks the overall situation will be unfulfilling. The same goes for actual sex - you can have desire, but then the actual act happens and it's not pleasant for some reason. Maybe the guy doesn't put effort into it or it's painful. This happens with both long te bfs and hookups. I hear a lot from friends about having strong sexual desire, but not feeling fulfilled by the experiences. So then the desire stagnates and frustrates and gets pushed aside for other duties. The mismstch of male-female arousal and mechanics makes this common enough.

[Opinion Owner]

Another interesting dynamic that of like to know more about is if guys feel strong pressure to make other people happy, like many women do. This is one thing that I also see played out a lot...

A woman is asked to help prop up other people's self esteem and emotions A LOT. You get some support, but you give more than you get usually - especially as men (and later children) often have a different rapport where the need a lot from you for lack of other outlets, but don't have as defined skills for giving back in that way. It can be very draining - especially for more receptive, private women.

I've felt trapped many nights in bars trying to blow of steam with a friend because a guy integrates himself as the focus of the conversation and begs for attention and emotional validation. You feel pressured to make him feel good about himself, but also not lead him on. But you devote much of your night that you vitally needed to unwind & connect to a friend to a random guy.

[Watermelonoma]

yeah... women have these desires too, but the biological and social pressures to actually act on them aren't as strong as it is for men. i also don't know of too many women who can have sex with a guy without having that mental connection with him first.

[Opinion Owner]

I don't say all this to put down men for their behavior, just to show the other side of the story. It's not always a cruelly intentioned power trip - just that we often feel depleted and frustrated and inadequate too.

[Watermelonoma]

i don't think there is a very strong dynamic for guys to make others feel happy. If there is a pressure, its that guys need to be leaders in the groups they're in. Being the guy who is kinda like the tail wagging behind the dog isn't desirable most of the time. Guys just do what is expected of them when it comes to dating though... which is to approach women first. They can't really spend all their time thinking "well what if she won't like me?" or "what if she's busy with something else?". Thats a clairvoyance we'll never have, so the best daters are the ones who just do it. So like, a guy who hits on you at the bar, he's not always thinking about what your mood might be or w/e, because if he did, he probably would convince himself to not approach you... and if a guy resolves himself to not approaching women, he is likely to be single forever

[Opinion Owner]

I don't blame the guy - just explaining a bit of the other side of dynamic.

Guy's (perhaps need) to be singleminded about achieving goals (digits, sex, date) is a reason you hear so many girls and women feel like they aren't even actually there when they interact with some men. It's almost like he's interacting with himself, but pushing buttons to see if his validation points will fall out. Likewise, it's hard to know what to do when you don't feel sexual attraction to someone or don't seem to have much in common and he has worked up the nerve to approach and wants you to make him feel good. Pretending is leading him on and rejecting is being mean. So you often feel like shit after these situations and it's not really anyone's fault.

[Opinion Owner]

Also, some guys get way out of line. Everyone keeps talking about free drinks and it makes me think of a time when I was younger when a friend and I turned down free drinks from some older guys and they threw them at us. Another time, a guy I'd talked to for about 5 minutes just because we were standing by each other came up and shoved a guy I was actually hitting it off with. Another time a guy I knew threatened me because I didn't want to go home with him.

I feel bad that guys have to go through all that they do, and also dislike the fear you feel when a guy who seems aggressive or too drunk or a little unhinged comes over.

Really, though, it's the jerks of the world making everyone nervous.

[Opinion Owner]

I just saw the part about sex. I think there's a more distinct difference between feeling desire for sex vs deciding to actually do it between men and women. And that doesn't even factor in arousal, which happens more slowly for women, and physicsl satisfaction, which is more complex for women to achieve.

It's not all about mental connection as far as actual desire. Many, if not most women, definitely feel sexual interest that isn't romantically motivated. I'd say most women fantasize about far more men than they'd sleep with. It's the deciding to follow through on the urge that is more complex. I agree, men definitely have stronger sex drives (except perhaps at ovulation), but also a more clear cut process for sex being enjoyable to them. Not to mention less dangerous (pregnancy, stds are harder on female system, easier -but not automatic - attachment, and the chance of pain, dissatisfaction and even violence make women more cautious on top of the sex drive differences.

[Watermelonoma]

Well i think the main issue is that although women have these sexual desires, the thing that actually makes them act on them has to whether or not that mental connections exist. I say this because when you look at a strip club, where no sex is involved, pretty much all of the fears you described for women pretty much evaporate. But you don't see a huge number of women gravitating towards strip clubs with male strippers. The demand amongst women for these things is low, even though the environment is safe because its public, and there's no sex at all involved (that would be illegal) and even in male strip clubs, lesbians like Norah in the video still couldn't find herself being aroused. So for this reason, i think there is an argument to be made when it comes to how important a real mental connection is for women when it comes to pulling the trigger on a person she is interested in

[Opinion Owner]

However, Magic Mike the movie is doing quite well and it's not because of the storyline! Women are also viewing more porn (though it's still heavily male fixated in terms of the kind of sex in most of it) and there are tons of sexy photo boards on Pinterest Boards. And reading and writing erotic literature has taken off. So I would guess a more complex reason is behind the strip club phenomenon. Though I don't have all the answers.

It's more balanced and nuanced. Both being sexy AND connecting authentically help a guy get laid.

[Opinion Owner]

I think that's one of the things that frustrates men so much. You have this overwhelming and immediate urge for any and all sex, but there is no magic formula to drop all the panties, so to speak. Likewise, women seem to have more of a sexual lonliness or background aching that is difficult to know how to fill because so many variables can leave it unfulfilled.

[Fugue]

You touch upon some of the differences between men and women, but you don't get into the biology, that much. I made a take a while back touching upon the fundamental workings of the brain that are related to mating behaviors and attraction. That is more interesting to me because it removes the social abstractions and gets right down to the core.

What happens in a nutshell is that men's sperm is cheap, and always has been, while, in contrast, a woman's 9 month pregnancy is extremely expensive. This is the model that is the basic infrastructure behind all of human mating behaviors. Male rejection is more natural because he's not offering much compared to what the female is offering (sperm vs pregnancy), while female rejection is considered devastating because a lot is being turned down over almost nothing. As a result, males can have almost no standards while females are encouraged by nature to be as hypergamous as they can afford to be. This low-level brain architecture is what sets men and women apart so much in the mating game.

[sunset5]

You're correct. They are entirely more privileged in this aspect of life. Men may have more power in other aspects (majority of world leaders are male), but in the dating world, women definitely have the power.

Women in general do not have respect for the heavy load and pressure that is put on men for being expected to make the first move. It's hard enough for a guy to make the first move to someone he likes, let alone being suspected of being a possible rapist in the process.

All she must do is sneer "Are you seriously hitting on me?" and storm away. A girl can blow off a guy with a nasty attitude any day of the week. I'm not saying that it's right, but since she has the power in the situation it is considered normal.

On the other hand, if in the rare case an attractive woman hits on a man, the man would be considered a fool to not accept. In addition, if the man did sneer a cold remark at the woman, he would be considered the biggest asshole and idiot in the world.

It's no wonder that some men view certain women "on a pedestal", because they literally are.

[BarbaraP]

I have a question for you, Watermelon guy. Honestly when was the last time you've said anything stupid? I think it probably never happened (but seriously I wanna know).
That was a really interesting analysis of the situation and I pretty much agree with you on everything.
You were saying this is one sided and it reminded me of a video someone posted here on GaG a couple of months ago. I wanna share it with you, if you haven't seen it yet. It's a man dressing up as a girl to experience street harassment. This was in Egypt and it's not much compared to Norah's experiment, it's very different too, but still it's a man who tries to understand what it's like to be a girl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvNZt1T5rAQ

[Coffinspire]

I was totally just about to post this! That was pretty accurate. He described stress and fear, everyday! Screw men having to prove themselves, how about fearing for your safety?

[Watermelonoma]

hahaha... well i think back in 2001 i said something kinda dumb that i could've phrased better xD. But im glad you liked the take. And the video is definitely interesting. What i find though is that in a lot of these middle eastern countries, due to the high repression of anything sexual, and the influence of political islam, guys over there are even more sexually frustrated than guys are in the west... but what makes it worse is that they are almost universally clueless when it comes to reading subtle social cues that women give off when they are clearly not interested.

[BarbaraP]

No way! I wanna know what that thing you said back in 2001 was :P

Yeah of course it's different there than it is in Europe , America or some other place. I don't think they're clueless tho, they probably don't even care if you're interested or not.

[Watermelonoma]

hAHA, well it had to do with a bet i lost, but it was just a mildly stupid comment :) Do you have to deal with street harassment often?

[BarbaraP]

But I don't think it counts if it was a bet :P

Not really. At least I don't consider it street harassment. You don't meet everyday that one guy who's very rude and intrusive. I have been followed a couple of times in the past tho -_-

[Watermelonoma]

aw poo bear =/ That's no good. Being followed is way way way beyond the line of what is acceptable.

[BarbaraP]

:( Yeah, that's definitely very bad... and scary xD The first time it happened I was 15, just a little babyyyy

[muspelhem_5]

Very good Take. I've heard of her and admire her for her experiment.

I would add that a lot of these things are biologically determined. The biological reason for women't privilege is that when they get pregnant, they are off the dating market for 9 months+.

Whereas guys just shoot their load, recharge for a while, and are ready again.

This means that women have to be WAY pickier, and that men are wired to be promiscuous. It also means that women are looking for good support in bringing up a child - even if it's just casual sex and there will be no child, the ability to be a supporting partner and father is still a highly desireable trait to her.

No doubt these things are reinforced, distorted and confused by social and cultural conditioning, but this site does a good job of explaining the underlying biology:

https://thematinggrounds.com/

[muspelhem_5]

*women's privilege

[muspelhem_5]

Oh yeah, and your thoughts on the craving for sexual connection really hit the nail on the head (so to speak) for me. Great thinking.

[Watermelonoma]

thanks mate :) Yes, biology plays a role in all this, no doubt. But as i said when talking about male hormones, we aren't slaves to biology... at least not to the degree that animals in the wild are. We're a lot more capable of thinking beyond that... and this is particularly evident in todays hook-up culture where many women really don't have any reservations sleeping with many guys because we've evolved in such a way to make that sort of lifestyle possible for females, where it isn't possible throughout a good portion of the animal kingdom. But once i get a bit more free time though, ill check out the site you linked to :)

[muspelhem_5]

Good point! But I think that women still choose the same way regardless. Now the bad boy from the club she sleeps with might not be the most stable husband, but he is likely high-status (in his group), assertive and generally just powerful, which are all pros when it comes to the now redundant (but still hardwired) task of protecting her and her offspring.

[kxera]

This is always going to be argued upon when in reality, it all comes down to individuals and circumstances. In some settings men have it harder, in other circumstances, women do. There was a time when women truly had it harder, but for the most part, things are generally equal because both sexes have their problems.

For example,

When it comes to family law suits, sexual molestation cases, military obligation, etc, men have it harder (in my opinion).

When it comes to social standards, acceptance, being taken seriously, standards, jobs, etc, women have it harder (in my opinion).

But both of these vary for person to person and location to location. Setting and individuals affect each bias.

[mr90skid]

At lot of info here and another take that should be an introductory read for this site. :) This take really should kill off some questions that are asked like every other day and should be use to shut up those radical man hating feminist who trail off of movements goals (equal pay and other gender discrimination) at the same time educating everyone else lol I know I learn quite a bit. The part about women still wanting to see Norah even after they found out about her being a women.. yeah I didn't see that coming O_o I didn't know emotions were that powerful. That kinda worries me though cause emotions that strong leave you vulnerable to manipulation.. no wonder players do so much damage. If only more guys showed integrity to curve and not feed that artificially high ego you talked about. If she's disrespecting call her on it, even if it kills your chances! smh
I'm with ya on waiting for a guy to infiltrate the female circle lol getting the voice down alone will be hell

[Watermelonoma]

Glad you liked it :) A lot of women really value that mental connection they have with people, to the point where they will fall head over heels for you if you manage to push the right buttons in them. Its just interesting to see how non important the way you look really is for some women

[mr90skid]

And I was sold that women were more shallow.. I guess I was wrong lol

[bubble_tea]

Great take.

Do you think it's equally that hard for guys to open up to close female friends? Female friends usually aren't quick to label guy friends 'gay' for showing sad feelings. Females mostly bond over sharing feelings, so it would be even seen as something normal you do when you want to be close friends.

If it's easier to open up, I wonder why most guys don't see value in female friendships... I actually asked this question before and almost every guy (it was like 40 replies) said all their needs are being met by their male friendships. So either they're lying or many men simply do not want to talk about feelings at all.

I think the cartoon is only (but very) true for girls who have this 'elitist' mentality, so much that they think even female friends should be thankful of their friendships. The one most gossiped about is the one who seems 'least grateful'.

[Watermelonoma]

well, its easier with female friends for sure... i mean assuming that he doesn't have a crush on her or anything... but its still so engrained in men that they aren't allowed to look weak... he still may not confess these things to his female friend. Some guys dont see value in female friendships, but i think that's largely with women who they are attracted to. It just doesn't work out well to be just friends with a woman when you like her too much. I don't think they're necessarily lying though. Its just that guys are trained to internalize certain emotions and deal with them on their own... or they may share them with a family member, which sometimes is enough. But im glad you liked the take :)

[bubble_tea]

I guess the main problem here is that most guys only approach and try to befriend the girls they're attracted to. And guys are usually the ones who do the approaching, so they get to select who they want to talk to. The other problem seems to be that guys seem to fall for the female friend (even if they weren't that attracted to her before) because she spends time with him while she might just like to spend time with her best friend. :/
You mostly only hear of intersex friendships that last a lifetime that were formed before puberty hit, so they see each other more as brothers and sisters instead of potential lovers.

[muspelhem_5]

I have female friends, but none of them are very sensitive to the stuff this Take mentions. I doubt they're even aware of it.

So they will entertain me with stories of creepy guys, seemingly oblivious to the fact that I'm a guy and it feels weird to hear how judgmental they are.

It would be the same as if I entertained my female friends with stories of that ugly fat b*tch that hit on me the other day. How does that make a woman feel?

[bubble_tea]

@muspelhem_5 Very sensitive to what stuff that take mentions? Aware of what?

lol I have a guy friend who said exactly just those things to me.. well, not ugly and fat about the same person, but about various girls who either hit on him or something. It's strange, because I don't find those girls remotely fat or ugly :/

[Yc2K15]

We all have equal power to privileges, it just depends on what that privilege is. I think people need to focus on the opposite things in life such as the privileges we have as people. The privilege to write to each other via the internet, and I am sure you all have clean (ish) drinking water. Its sad to see women complain so much about being women, things like pregnancy are amazing and incredible. Its part of what makes us most involved with life, and brings people together. All for a day of pain (which is said to be a blur). People who complain about dating privileges just lack confidence and do not know how to compose themselves. These things are all relative to the individuals and can only be changed by the individuals.

[FatherJack]

Excellent take , prompted by my own daughters comments about she loved being a girl , I posted this question www.girlsaskguys.com/.../q1552025-ladies-do-you-think-it-s-better-to-be-female-in-today-s-western
& was interested to see from the poll that most girls were glad to be girls , but equally was not surprised. Many , if not most , guys wish that their sex drive had an OFF button , I hated mine as a serving soldier on operations & I would have had it permanently removed back then if I had the facility to do so. Men are viewed as inferior to women in Western "society " the " media " bashes men constantly.

[Watermelonoma]

oh you and me both man. I'd love it if i could turn the drive off... at least for a few months so it wasn't distracting me from other things -_- But from what I've seen, there's a definite misunderstanding of the male condition and what it takes to live as a man today

[FatherJack]

" It's more of an elitist mentality, where some women have an artificially high value of themselves, so much so that they are prompted to look down on a guy who had the ordasity to say hi to them " Your comment is so bang on target , whilst working as door staff many years back , saw so many girls give brutal , snarling " FUCK OFF CREEP " rejections to guys that were being respectful & not sleazy ( I would understand if the guys did not respect boundaries ) then they heaped more humiliation on them ( i threw out several bitch groups ) I think the " media " is a large part to blame as women are painted as perfect , whilst all men are filthy , worthless , stupid , sex crazed subhuman creatures , women follow " media " influence far more than guys , so women end up looking down on guys. This social experiment further proves that women & men are incompatible on so many levels , simply because we do not understand each other.

[BiffWebster]

I would say women in many cases...
or whoever is capable of advertising their life the best on social media or in social situations. People always try to attach themselves to those who they consider to have better lives then their own or those with more friends. Its an evaluation type of thing. Its always a popularity contest, and nobody wants second or third place. We damage each other too much, and we all play these bs games. It all comes down to how "awesome" or "cool" or "hot" you can be. -_- thats what pisses me off

[plinkett]

Women. The entire West has now been designed to benefit women, while men are severely oppressed. Ironically, the feminists that have declared war one men also ruin the lives of women. Neither sex will be happy in this nightmare feminists have created. It is a world where conflict between sexes is fostered, rather than understanding and affection. It will be a world of isolated, selfish people, out of touch with their own identity. There will be no love, no marriage, no children. The children that will be born will be fatherless, neurotic, miserable, and unable to form healthy relationships as they grow up. The spiral of self- annihilation will only pick up pace, as feminists declare more and more battlefields for 'equality'.

[M_A_X]

I love how there's this one cowardly disgusting bitch hiding behind downvoting people who are AGREEING WITH ANOTHER WOMAN

[Octavius]

I loved that last cartoon sketch and sadly enough I have seen it multiple times. I've been near girls that have done that where they'd say "bye best buddy" and then when their friend is out of earshot they just start insulting her like she was a rapist. It's disgusting how two-faced people can be.

[Watermelonoma]

yeah i thought it really worked! Socially, guys are much more about using banter as a form of communication, which sounds aggressive but really isn't... but girls are often not about that kind of banter... but behind closed doors, they get into gossip mode, where they're often intentionally cruel