What are the Disadvantages for Men in Society?

[the_rake]

A common argument against proclaiming yourself an egalitarian rather than a feminist is that women are the more socially disadvantaged group in society, therefore there needs to be more focus on their rights. In light of the developments of 20th century feminism, I argue that it is no longer the case that women are the subjugated sex. I do this by focussing on some of the disadvantages of being a man in today's world. This does not mean women have it easy, it just means female inequality is being exaggerated in a world of third-wave feminism. The men's inequalities listed are just a few from a issue growing in complexity are often being marginalised by women who want to hold on to the feminist agenda. If you raise these issues, you are accused of being a misogynist. In light of them, I would encourage GaG readers to identify as egalitarians rather than feminists because any other label aggravates gender wars and hatred of the opposite sex.

1. More men are victims of assault

A Canadian website reported that

'Men were almost twice as likely to be the victims of assault level 2 than women (215 versus 114 per 100,000)'

https://www.victimsweek.gc.ca/res/r512.html

It is true in western societies in general that men are more likely to be victims of assault.

2. Sexual assault and rape is emasculating and humiliating for men

Being raped or sexually assaulted as a woman is terrible luck, but can you imagine the pain and emasculating effect of being anally raped as a man by another man? Unimaginable.

Many statistics also point towards up to 40% of men being victims of sexual assault which is not as large a number as for women but it adds to the aforementioned issue.

'In asking 40,000 households about rape and sexual violence, the survey uncovered that 38 percent of incidents were against men.'

'[M]en are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators.'

https://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

3. Women are genetically predisposed to live longer lives.

In spite of this, women have earlier retirement ages than men.

4. Men have to play the 'traditional dating game'

Always having to be 'the man' - do the approach, lead the interaction, buy her nice stuff, etc. This is all part and parcel with the supposed privilige of having a penis.

5. Women might get periods but it's men that have to suffer the emotional turbulence

Yep, if you're in a relationship or happen to be close to many women, then you're the one that's gonna get the stick in your ass every time it's her time of the month.

6. More men work blue collar labour and pay rates in white collar labour are roughly equal between genders

https://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap

7. Men don't get as much parental leave

They also have less parental rights when it comes to divorce proceedings.

8. It's easier for women to get their ideal shape

The calorie consumption, bulking and cutting, and inducing muscular hytrophy from free weights is 10 times harder and more complicated than the exercise routines women need to keep in good shape.

On the other hand this is the main thing women need to do:

9 Men are shamed for seeking counselling

Society puts far more stress on men to be emotionally stoic than women.

10 Men are 'creep-shamed'

If women are shamed for being promiscuous, men are shamed for failing to approach a woman the way she wants to be approached, or for not being the confident, attractive man she wanted to be approached by. This is in spite of the pressure society puts on men to be the initiator.

Conclusion

In light of these systemic disadvantages, I would encourage readers of this article to be advocates of egalitarianism rather than feminism. This seems to be the least controversial and most constructive stance ideologically.

[Hannah591]

It's actually harder for women to get in better shape seeing as they're predisposed to store fat for pregnancy. It's going to be hard for either gender when you want to be as big as Arnold Schwarzenegger which is the kind of body type you're talking about.

Sexual assault and rape is equally devastating and women can be raped by women. Women can anal rape them too. You're telling people to be egalitarian but you're making out men have it worse? How about sexual assault and rape is just as bad for both?

We can't help living longer and retirement age is the same for any sex here.

All the "shaming" when you get support is from male insecurities and driven by the immense masculinity levels you all impose on each other. Women can also be shamed for getting support. We don't all have a big girly girl group that does everything for us and with us.

Nowadays, a lot of women do the approach. I know I have. Things are changing. It's not that hard either.

Emotional turbulence? How about the emotional turbulence we're actually feeling ourselves because of the hormones we CAN'T control?

[the_rake]

Some good points. I address a lot of this more thoroughly in the updated articles:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2

[MLGSonic]

Really, that's shit

[Anonymous]

Sorry, but saying men are disadvantaged for periods is really silly. My girlfriend vomits and faints when she has her period, she goes through horrible pain, so I feel really lucky I'm a guy. Yes some women feel bad and take it out on others (I guess it's hard to be a ray of sunshine when not feeling well) but they take it out on those around them, men and women too, gender has nothing to do with it. And rape is just as humiliating for women, it's not just horrible luck.

Anyway, thanks for the take. Personally I'm not into any "isms" or movements, I support anyone being who they want to be, no matter how traditional or non-traditional that is. People here argue who has it worse, men or women, but I think people of both genders who don't naturally fit what's expected of their gender have it worst. It's easy to be a guy when you're naturally assertive and confident, it's easy to be a girl when the role that society puts on you is what you want anyway. When you're more inclined to have the opposite gender's characteristics is when the judgments start.

[the_rake]

Fair point, I wasn't really taking a lot of factors into consideration there. Still, I feel that when it comes to relationships, men get the short straw for having to deal with emotional drama on the whole.

[Mekkalyn]

"2. Sexual assault and rape is emasculating and humiliating for men"
And it isn't just as bad for women? Sexual assault is bad regardless of gender. And society as a whole is becoming more aware of male's being sexually assaulted and it isn't emasculating anymore. It's humiliating for both genders. It's emotionally draining on both. It destroys your feeling of safety.

"5. Women might get periods but it's men that have to suffer the emotional turbulence"
Because women don't suffer the emotional turbulence of their own hormonal imbalance? No, it's not okay to take it out on others, but sometimes it happens. If you live with someone, it's practically unavoidable. But I can almost guarantee it's worse for the person having the period, because a lot of women are physically and emotionally in pain for DAYS. And most women don't make the people that surround them miserable for the entire duration of their period. In fact, for a lot of women, they just have a shorter fuse and get agitated way easier. People will have the feeling of walking on eggshells for a few days. That pales in comparison to what some women go through on their period.

"8. It's easier for women to get their ideal shape"
That's an ignorant assumption to make. There are women body builders who have it just as hard. Women's ideal shape is different than a man's, that's not a disadvantage of being a male, that's perspective. If a guy wants to get ripped, he's going to work harder than a girl who just wants to stay trim. If a guy's perspective of their ideal body was to be slim with toned muscles, it would be very similar to a female. Don't say that your idea of the ideal shape is a disadvantage for a guy.

"10 Men are 'creep-shamed'"
Um, don't be creepy if you don't want to be creep-shamed. I'd say the same thing to anyone. If you're going to act creepy or act like a slut, you're going to be called out on it. I wouldn't call that a disadvantage for being a man.

With that said, I agree with your other points and think that it's unfair that guys aren't treated equal. They have every right to be treated the same. But remember that there are also advantages to being a guy and disadvantages to being a female. Try not to play victim because both sides have their own issues with equality.

[the_rake]

2.

Like I said, 'being raped as a woman is terrible luck', of course it is humiliating. But as a man, you are more likely to be anally raped and society is going to tell you that you are less of a man because of it. As a woman, it is a truly horrible and humiliating experience but there is simply not going to be the same emasculating experience. It's always worse for men.

5.

In general, men just have to cope with a lot more emotional drama from their spouses. The period is just going to be the highlight of the month. You do raise some points here though.

8.

True, but it's not like many men consider the female body builder the ideal physique they are looking for. Anyway this is just another perspective on how men can have it as hard as women, not necessarily harder - and I genuinely don't think building mass is tougher than yoga or aerobics (I do yoga by the way, it is excellent for building the core strength and flexibility required to do some of the tougher lifts - the squat and

[Mekkalyn]

2. There is no such thing as a "worse" sexual assault experience. They are all equally as bad.

5. I think you'd be surprised how emotional guys can be.

8. Not every women find the body builder guy physique attractive. I know that I don't. If guys didn't look like that they would still be happy and find women to date.

Yes, I do agree that men have it just as hard. Women are not unique in their experiences. The point is that we both go through it and it both should be acknowledged, but one does not trump the other.

[the_rake]

... the deadlift. Anyway, yes in moderation, female bodybuilders can look truly excellent. But for the most part they are not going to need to put on as much mass as (nor is it going to be as desirable for them to put on as much mass as) men.

10.
Men are often creep shamed just for not being an attractive or confident man when they make an approach. It doesn't mean they are actually a creep. No offense, but as a woman you won't have the same experience getting rejected on mass to find a partner. It's tough work, a little scary even. There's a very good reason PUA (pick-up artistry) is becoming more and more popular with sexually unsatisfied men.

I'm glad you agree with some of my other points. Keep in mind that this is just another perspective. I am not saying one gender has it tougher. I am pointing out some of the hypocrisy and double standards of calling yourself a feminist saying that women have it worse on the whole, and arguing that it is better to be an egalitarian.

[the_rake]

2.
Respectfully, I've never agreed that there is no such thing as varying severity when it comes to a sexual assault charge. For example 'sexual assault' can be limited to inappropriate touching or it can be straight forward rape. It can be oral rape, vaginal rape or anal rape (the most painful and humiliting of the three in my view). It could also be date rape (where the victim is not conscious) or it could be a violent gang bang. The rape could even involve actual torture.

I understand why people say there is no such thing as 'worse' sexual assault: it is to show respect to the victims of sexual assault and for this I have empathy. But objectively, it is not the case. A UK politician said the same thing as what I am saying now a few years ago and got a lot of bad rap for saying that some rape cases are worse / more violent and should face greater legal consequence (longer sentences, etc.). But he was right.

[the_rake]

5.
True. But men are told by society to restrict their emotions. As a result they are not as adept at psychological warfare, which is why women usually 'win the argument' - because they are more in tune with their emotions and not concerned with using logic to beat the man down emotionally. I only learned to beat women in an argument when I learned to start using fallacious reasoning / playing stupid and even then it is tough.

8.
I think most girls would agree that a rugged / lean physique compliments a man, and this type of man will have an advantage over his smaller, athletic or otherwise skinny counterparts. We don't have to go to the Mr Olympia bodybuilding extreme here. Just look at the Hemsworth brothers or Hugh Jackman. Most women would not pass up on Richard Armitage for example:

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...3199bd72e1.jpg

'The point is that we both go through it and it both should be acknowledged, but one does not trump the other.'

I agree, that is why the focus should be on egalitarianism, not feminism.

[Zeanobia]

It's worse when men gets raped because unlike women, men have very few places to go. Society just barely acknowledge male rape victims and especially female predators. We can't go to the police without getting laughed at, there are almost no support group and most of such organizations only make it worse by portraying women as the sole victim "men is a hate crime against women" (yeah right). We even risk to pay child support or being accused of rape ourselves and there's no way of forcing our rapist to get abortion no matter the circumstances.

Rape is horrible, but at least women get help when it happens.

[Zeanobia]

*rape is a hate crime against women.

[Mekkalyn]

@Zeanobia Here is one link alone for a support group that openly accepts and has resources for men https://www.pandys.org/malesurvivors.html

I don't see why there has to be a million places to go when you can just log onto your computer and get help in the most convenient way. If I was raped, I would use an online source, too. So it's not like I'm shaming you into going online, I just find it the best way for people to connect and feel like they can be honest and receive help.

If every police station laughs at males getting raped, how are there women rapists in prison? Clearly there's a lot of police stations that don't take rape lightly. I'm sure this happens, not arguing it doesn't, but there are also a lot of places that press charges.

[Calex]

Men being creep shamed has nothing to do with them being a creep. That's the problem. They are creep shamed even just by simply glancing in a woman's direction.

[Mekkalyn]

@Calex How are they being creep shamed by looking at a woman? What does that woman do, exactly?

[Calex]

She tells her friends about how creepy he was, therefore destroying his reputation in her and possibly some of his circle of friends.

[Mekkalyn]

@Calex How many women's circles have you been in? Because I have never once heard a woman say that for a guy looking at her. I've heard people call someone a creep when they stare them down and are sitting in a corner, almost unblinkingly, never taking their eyes off the person. That is creepy. Who does that and is normal?

[Calex]

I've been in a few. It doesn't happen to me, but then again I wouldn't know because they always say it behind someone's back. However, I've been with girls that called another guy creepy after he left. They never say it in front of the guy. He didn't even do anything wrong, I was just listening to them bad mouth people basically all day.

[Mekkalyn]

@Calex We've clearly had different experiences. But I wouldn't call it creep shaming. If the person really thinks that person's behavior is creepy, why can't they say something about it? As long as they don't make fun of the person to their face, I don't see how that's shaming someone. It's not like they know about it. Chances are people will just laugh it off and forget about it.

[Calex]

It's not that simple. They will eventually find out through their friends about gossips and people talking behind their backs. It damages their reputation in the same way slut shaming does. It needs to stop.

[Mekkalyn]

@Calex I just don't see the creep grapevine the way you do, I suppose. I've never heard of someone calling someone a creep to a friend, then that friend tells someone, then that person tells someone else, etc. I just have never seen that and I find it exceptionally hard to believe that people are like that. If that happens, it's because of a good reason, more than a guy just staring at a girl.

I just feel like the issue is being blown out of proportion.

But I'm done discussing this. I have nothing further to say.
Have a good one :)

[Zeanobia]

Speaking of creep, what did this woman do wrong when disguising as a guy?

https://youtu.be/Ip7kP_dd6LU she's obviously a creep apparently.

[Calex]

It happens because of a good reason? Are you blindly still defending them even if they could be in the wrong? Why can't you just say "Well, these guys aren't creepy, and if they are, they must have a good reason" is it because you are a woman?

If you're saying that for the sake of bias then that's not very good reasoning at all.

[Calex]

I've said this and I'll say it again: Unreasonable people only jump in to defend their own gender. Be neutral. If you can't be neutral, then you can't be reasonable.

Be equal. Equality is the best.

[hellionthesage]

The statistic is that 80% of all assualt/mugging/murder victims are male. For the sexual assualt/rape yes its about 40% but that is only rape by women, the number of men being raped in prison is actually significantly higher then women being raped and men being raped (outside of prison) combined making men far more likely to be raped then women by both men and women. Then when we factor in that we as a society refuse to acknowledge that men are raped by women. Tthe 40% statistic comes from the CDC where they listed it as being "forced to penetrate"(a woman forcing herself onto a man ie rape) which they even listed as a sexual assualt instead of rape despite the fact that by definition it was, thus showing how far we go to ignore this which in turn means that their is a good probability that the number is much higher then that its simply not being reported due to constant ridicule and belittlement. As for living longer, also its true plus female specific diseases get more funding from the government then male ones despite the fact that men are more likely to get them then women (women have a 33% probability of devoloping cancer as opposed to mens 50% yet you never see much fund raising for male centric cancers) Women also have to pay less for health insurance by law (despite using it more) yet men are still required to pay more for life insurance since they are more likely to die sooner then women. Also fun fact, a man has to have permission from his wife to cash out a pention since it was created specificly as a safe guard to take care of her when he inevitablly died. For number 5, actually statisticly men are more likely to be emotionally abused in a relationship then a woman by a significant margin, and is also more likely to be physically abused as well. Men have less parental rights and no reproductive rights to speak of (if a woman is pregnant and she doesn't want the baby and he does, she is legally allowed to abort, if she wants the baby and he does not, he has to pay child support. In both scenarios she has all the power he has none of it. If a woman chooses not to be a mother and aborts she is not shamed for it, if a man chooses not to be a father he is a deadbeat.) You also forgot to mention that 98% of work place deaths are men, that 70% of all homeless are men, that their is highering quotas for women in male dominated fields but none for for men in female dominated fields. Nor did you mention the feminization of education. Otherwise good take.

[the_rake]

I might do an updated mytake taking into account some of the points raised in the comment section because a lot of them have been very constructive.

Thanks.

[hellionthesage]

Not a problem, just glad somebody pointed some of this stuff out who wasn't me.

[the_rake]

In the updated article (which has two parts), I included some of your theory. You have not been mentioned directly because this is not allowed but it was clearly quoted so you can take credit if you wish:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2

[hellionthesage]

Thats fine you made it clear you where quoting some one else so I don't have an issue with that, its not like its a paper that is being published. I would like to point out that while I am critical of your arguments that is not meant to be an attack or criticism so I hope you don't take it as such. Again I don't disagree with what you are saying for the most part, I just happen to have a lot of information that others do not so that is why I tend to correct or question things (I have been having these arguments for a while now so I am rather well versed on the subject, if I do say so myself.)

[RansomDraven]

I just don't understand. Women have issues just as men have issues. The world isn't fair and my dad taught me that my entire life. "Whoever told you life was fair lied to you". It just isn't, and while men and women should be treated equally, I really hate this direction that we are going in where men and women are so dang equal that we can't even tell one from the other. I like my husband being a man and I like being the woman. Not because I want to take advantage of him, not because I want to be over him, but because that's part of what attracted me to him... him being a man. He works really hard, honestly harder than me, so I try to be a good wife and have a clean house for him. Keep it stocked with stuff he likes. With that being said, he sees that and will fill my car up with gas, bring me something cold to drink. We treat each other equally but also remember who is who. Not that one person is over the other, but that he's a man and I'm a women. He feels that need to protect me if we go out at night, and I love that, but with that being said I would jump right in to help him if something happened. There is a place for men amd women to still be men and women but treated equally when it comes to things like rape, assault, of help.

[the_rake]

True, men and women are different biologically.

[MrChadeo920]

Damn wish more women where like you.

[RansomDraven]

@MrChadeo920. Lol thanks.

It's just a balance that needs to be found I think.

[SilenRose]

Seems like you got a good man. Some of the guys on here could learn something. :)

[RansomDraven]

@SilenRose thank you! I do have a really great guy. I'm extremely blessed =)

[Anonymous]

Why does it seem like people are trying to make a war out of whose problem is more important? Female problems do not make male problems invalid and vice versa. The truth is, issues like these should be tackled head. There are disadvantages for being both male and female. Some of the issues on this myTake I don't agree with, but some I do. I honestly don't agree with 4,5, 8, and 10.

4.) Nobody ever said that you HAD to initate contact with women. It's 2015 and more and more women are starting to initiate relationships with men. However, if you want something, then you ask for it. So if you see a girl you like, then try talking to her. You don't HAVE to if you don't want to.

5.) Women get periods and it can make us feel different, but we don't turn into the hulk. Most women just take some pain killers, suck it up, and go about their day, or lay around in bed. Periods come with a lot of pain. Just show us a little compassion.

8.) I don't even know how you figured that it's easier for women to achieve the "ideal shape". First off, most women don't even know what the "ideal shape" is! Most of my life I was told that being skinny was ideal, now everyone wants to be curvy, and now everyone wants a giant butt. Honestly, I've never been able to acheive my "ideal shape". Haven't you noticed all the questions on GaG about girls and their bodies. For guys it's more defined. The ideal shape for guys is pretty much just abs. For most girls, if you've got nice abs and maybe some good arm muscles, then you're set. Girls freak over the smallest things, like thigh gaps, cellulite, and thunder thighs!

10.) I have never creep shamed or even heard of creep shaming. Maybe it happens more where you're from. However if a guy politely introduces himself to me and appears like a normal guy, I'm going to treat him like a normal guy. If a guy approaches me like a creep, I'm going to call him a creep. One time a guy approached me and told me he wanted to have sex with me in the school bathroom. Obviously, he's a creep. If a girl calls a guy a creep even though he's not a creep, then she's probably a bitch.

All the other issues I can agree with. However can we stop trying to figure out whose problems are more impirtant. Women's issues and men's issues are just the people's issues that need to be solved. We're all just people, and our genders doesn't change that. Lets just start solving these problems for everyone.

[the_rake]

Like I said, the point is not to marginalise women's issues, it is just to point out that egalitarianism has a stronger place in this world. Most of what I said is subject to debate but a lot of it will strike a chord with many men. For example,

4. Men are still by and large expected to be the initiator (not that it bothers me much personally because I am capable of doing it) and it doesn't stop there: women do expect you to continue a dominant role, persevere even when she's playing hard to get, pay for things, e. g. pay for dates, etc. Maybe for you (it says that you're under 18) things will be different now but keep in mind that I'm 24 and when I was at college and university this was definitely the way things were for me. I can't say for sure how much things have changed in the space of a few years for younger people now leaving school.

8. It seems to be that women do send a lot of conflicting messages, e. g. be curvey, be thin, etc. but then, women do not just want to impress the

[the_rake]

opposite gender. They want to impress each other as well. Guys have been saying pretty much the same thing for ages: size 12 is ideal. A little above that is ok as well. This isn't the same for all guys. As for abs, I don't think it's enough to be a skinny guy with abs. Losing weight for women is definitely easier on the whole than gaining mass/definition (not talking Mr. Olympia here) AND doing enough cardio so you have a low body fat.

10. It's nice that you're polite and respectful like that but not all women are the same.

[the_rake]

*skinny guys with abs like Justin Bieber might appeal to younger girls but in their 20s and 30s, most women generally want leaner more masculine men.

[SilenRose]

GAG is pretty much one big gender war.

[the_rake]

@SilenRose

Well I personally am not interested in gender war. Like I said in OP, I'm an egalitarian, not an MRA. Women have issues and men have issues of their own so let's not marginalise the issues of either gender, not in the name of patriarchy and not in the name of political correctness either.

[Calex]

@SilenRose That's why you post on it, right?

[SilenRose]

@Calex I've posted a gender war article? Do tell.

[Calex]

@SilenRose No, ON it.

[the_rake]

this isn't a gender war article.

[hellionthesage]

I think you missed the point, I personally did not read anywhere that he was saying that women didn't have problems but rather pointing out that men do as well which we as a society do not like to talk about. For instance your response that presumes that by mentioning male issues is tantamount to saying women don't would be a perfect example of why we need to start talking about issues that effect men.

[KRIEL55]

1. ok
2. really now? your acting like men who rape women are gentle with them and only have vaginal sex with them. getting fucked in the ass is just as horrible for women plus rapists are often a lot stronger then an average woman so it can become extremely violent. dont act like women getting raped is just "bad luck" its one of the worst things that can happen to either gender
3. yeah we supposingly live longer but literally anything can kill you, its not people only die from old age, anyone can die way faster then they were meant to
4. the dating rules have gotten a lot more evolved, its not so shocking to see a girl making the first moves anymore
5. you are completely overreacting, we dont get that crazy during our periods.
6. ok
7. ok
8. yeah right! do you honestly think that all women do is some light cardio and get their "perfect" shape? some of us weight train, some of us waist train, some of us do hourss of cardio, i personally switch off from eating light and doing cardio and arm/ab workouts, to eating a lot of carbs and weight training so much that my whole body is sore the next day. it is a struggle to also maintain the weight i want to be and nobody expects a guy to be THAT built anyways
9. and calm down, these days people are way more open minded and nobody judges a man for having emotional problems
10. its really not that big of a deal, and definitelyyyy not as big of a deal as being shamed for being promiscuous. if a guy isn't confident enough to approach us, we either approach him ourselves or just move on and dont think anything of it.

[the_rake]

Thanks for the breakdown. Since other users have made similar points as you, I have addressed them in a separate my take.

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2

[KRIEL55]

they didn't load. but either way it sounds more like you are trying to make men seem like some kind of victims. and i would like to update my response even more.
2. not only is it a horrible experience for any gender, women get shamed like crazy too! we get shamed just for losing our virginity, being raped basically translates to "she was asking for it, what a slut" women get shamed all the time and some even have their reputations ruined for it especially if it was more then one guy, she is automatically the biggest hoe ever and nobody will ever want her and like i mentioned earlier, it can get extremely violent. its so often for a rapist to kill their victim at the end and the majority of the time the victim is a woman. so dont talk to me about this little "it makes us look less manly" complaint -_- i just can't
and number 8, not only do we workout like crazy, a lot of woman go to drastic measures to achieve their ideal look. this includes surgery and starvation. that is just not okay

[KRIEL55]

all men have to do is eat a lot and lift weights. thats the easiest part of my workout routine. gaining muscle in good places like my legs while still being slim and toned everywhere and having a flat stomach and keeping a curvy waist and staying at a healthy weight for my little height so eating a bunch of carbs one week, and then checking all the labels on everything i eat to avoid carbs the next week, now THAT is the real struggle. i WISH all i did was pig out and weight train. that would be the most comfortable lifestyle ever

[the_rake]

hmm funny that this was the case with the links, still this should work:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

(it has the link for part-two also).

Basically, the argument I used for male rape being worse (i. e. rape by another man) was that 's a man being anally raped, it is like you are the "woman" or the "bitch": for the rest of your life, you will feel like you are not a real man and not just because society tells you so (it is in our nature to be dominant - testosterone exaggerates this intinctive urge).' As a man you will also begin to question your own sexuality. This is on top of all of the normal trauma a woman would experience - difficulties in interpersonal relationships, depression, suicidal thoughts, etc.

I just can't really explain it better than that because it is an emotional/sentimental thing: it's not logical at all. The only people that are likely to understand this phenomena on an instinctive level are other men...

[the_rake]

I can understand that it would be difficult for a woman (who is not told to 'man up' by society) to understand why male rape is so bad, but there it is. I can also imagine that for women who have been raped or sexually assaulted, they would also have emotional aversion to this idea because it belittles their own experience. But it is true.

'i WISH all i did was pig out and weight train.'

It's not really enough to just pig out. For one thing, as a man you want to put on muscle, not fat - otherwise you are just going to have to go through intensive cardio and dieting once the bulk cycle is over. This is in addition to all the calorie excess and weightlifting.

Second of all, 'pigging out' sounds like great fun... until you actually TRY eating 6 - 8 meals in one day, every day. This also means spending ages cooking, getting the groceries, preparing food, researching the proper foods (usually white meats, dairy, pasta, etc. - nothing incredibly interesting to eat) and also timing your

[the_rake]

... meals right in between workouts.

[KRIEL55]

i dont know where youu live but even though women dont literally get told to man up, we still get told to stop being all up in our emotions and i've literally heard women shame other women for making such a big deal of rape. this girl i know was talking about her cousin like "omg it happened like 3 months ago why is she STILL talking about it? its not a big deal she needs to calm down and stop being so emotional!" we DONT get comforted by everyone except for our closest friends and maybe family. i actually have been raped before and i dont mind mentioning it here because nobody knows me but i've only told one person about it because i already know that even my family would shame me and act like it was my fault. thats just how it goes. and well duhh you dont eat a lot just to gain fat smh i know about weight training i've been doing it for yearss and its common knowledge that to gain muscle, you need to eat a lott and even junk food will contribute to muscle gain.

[KRIEL55]

and i eat a lot when im weight training 6-8 meals a day is perfect to me. the weeks i eat a lot and weight train are like my happiest weeks because you dont have to count calories, you dont have to read all the labels, just have to eat as much as you can and then weight train for about 2 hours, wake up super sore the next day and see more and more results after a few months. its great. thats all i'd ever do if i wasn't worried about gaining too much weight. im only 5'3 so i dont want to be like 200 pounds, i still try to maintain a healthy weight so i try not to get too carried away with weight training

[the_rake]

' i actually have been raped before '

I'm sorry to hear that. Like I mentioned at the beginning (although it was poorly phrased), I can sympathise with anyone who has experienced or been through this ordeal.

Also,

' "omg it happened like 3 months ago why is she STILL talking about it? its not a big deal she needs to calm down and stop being so emotional!" '

It is perfectly natural to respond to something so traumatic in an emotional manner.

But my point wasn't really about emotions or being shamed. It was about the symbolism of being a man who's pride and honour has been stripped away with a dominating act that was specifically intended to emasculate. Sure women will feel emotionally distressed, traumatised and even powerless because that's what rapists do - they exercise power over people. But their identification with their gender role (as a woman with typically feminine attributes) and their sexuality will not be questioned in the same way. It's extremely difficult to...

[the_rake]

... explain this in delicate terms because it is a sensitive issue. I was kind of hoping people would just 'get it' but it is understandable that women - especially women that have been victims of rape - would have such a strong aversion to the idea that some cases of sexual assault could be 'worse'. This is for reasons that are very easy to relate to: the idea that rape is worse for men belittles their own experience and makes it seem like they did not go through anything. However that is not my intention, nor do I think it is the intention of people that would agree with me. But I can see why a rape victim would not believe it to be true.

[the_rake]

'and i eat a lot when im weight training 6-8 meals a day is perfect to me. the weeks i eat a lot and weight train are like my happiest weeks because you dont have to count calories, you dont have to read all the labels, just have to eat as much as you can and then weight train for about 2 hours, wake up super sore the next day and see more and more results after a few months.'

Here is a suggestion. Why don't you just combine weight training with cardiovascular and cut meals during this period down to 3 or 4 at the most. Bulking and cutting cycles are by and large unnecessary for men let alone women who do not need to become massive. If you took this suggestion on board, you wouldn't have to switch between 'pigging out' and starving yourself thin. The 6-8 meal recommendation really and truly is advice for men that want to put on a good 20-40 pounds minimum.

As for weight training in women, I can appreciate an athletic body type. However...

[the_rake]

the muscle mass that is desirable to look good in a woman still does not compare to what is typically desirable in a man.

For example, you could weight train and work your way up to this kind of physique:

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...eb97902ca3.jpg

Which is desirable. But most men will agree that typically a woman can stick to fat reduction programmes and have this kind of physique much easier:

medicmagic.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/slim.jpg

Even then, shedding a lot of fat to be a size 10 is difficult, which is why I personally recommend size 12 which can be achieved with modest cardio work and maybe a little weight training / yoga / pilates / take your pick:

s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/.../...dfd586b63d.jpg

Finally, even failing this - what I personally consider to be the ideal size for women - most women can have as large as a size 16 physique (which is average for most women) and still be desirable to most men, myself included (see the girl on the far right):

40.media.tumblr.com/...ltah2tyueI1qb41p9o1_500.jpg

In fact it is really quite attractive in fact. More cushing for the pushing.

[the_rake]

Realistically for men though, this guy is pretty much the standard (it doesn't look good if you get much bigger however):

assets.menshealth.co.uk/.../...5102011__square.jpg

Look on any men's health magazine, and you will see guys pretty much the same build, whereas actually there are quite a variety of female models - from anorexically thin (quite freakish in my opinion) 'runway models' through to slim, fit, curvacious and athletic women. Men's fitness models are actually a lot more standardised than people give credit for and it's pretty damn tough to get the physique in the picture above. I've been working towards it for 8 years or so.

[KRIEL55]

so you basically admit that its worse for men. really now. just because a man (which is ironically, the same gender as you. so its like you all do it to yourselves) rapes another man, its considered to be a THOUSAND times worse then a man raping a woman? are you kidding me. i can't even begin to describe how ridiculous that sounds. i tried earlier but YOU just dont get it. and i dont pig out and then starve. i just eat a lott more and eat some junk food too (and i dont force myself, i LOVE food) and then i eat a lot cleaner and way less (but still a healthy amount) and i always do cardio even when im weight training because i dont want to be bulky, just want some muscle and i've been doing this for years and have seen some amazing results

[KRIEL55]

well we, women, dont expect a guy to look like that. even though im all about working out and love being fit and toned with some muscle, i've dated plenty of skinny guys who just werent about that fitness life and i never complained about their bodies they looked good either way

[the_rake]

ok, well apologies that I could not understand your perspective better.

[Anonymous]

Some are legit, but why skim over parental rights, which is huge!!

I fervently disagree that being raped as a man is somehow worse and that female rape victims are simply "unlucky." It's more true I say that men often hide sexual abuse even more than women and that men sexually abused by women are not taken seriously, even if they were just boys!

The in shape thing isn't true, as women's bodies hold onto fat easier and we can eat far fewer calories. Being slim isn't as easy for women as for men. That one is a draw.

Also, men have their own cycles of waxing and waning hormones. So that is a draw too.

Male suicide rates are alarming, though it fits into #9. I do think there are many female suicides that go unrecorded, though, as "prescription overdoses" ... I say this from personal family experience. So those stats are closer than recorded, but still show more male distress. The suicide for men facing serious illness are especially high, but we don't see tons of campaigns to get men to the doctor sooner.

The "creep" thing isn't all or nothing. Some men are seriously abrasive, intimidating or aggressive in approach. People just need to use the word appropriately and prudently, rather than feeling pressured to accept any kind of behavior.

Also, I saw nothing about how more boys fall behind & drop out of school. I don't buy into "feminization" because teachers have long been mostly female. Nor do I believe boys should be allowed to be noisy and rowdy in class. My grandpa couldn't even kick his legs in class and actually graduated a year early. I DO think, though, that boys need breaks and exercise more, and that they seem more affected by chemicals in foods. Also that they are over educated, when better diets and exercise would do the trick. Class sizes are so big that teachers can't be expected to handle unruly students in top of trying to teach 30+ kids. But the structure could be set up so kids get more time to move, etc.

[Opinion Owner]

Over medicated. WTF, autocorrect.

[the_rake]

Hope you forgive me for cutting and pasting points from other users: it's getting tough to address all of this information.

'why skim over parental rights, which is huge'

I had to retype the mytake.

'I fervently disagree that being raped as a man is somehow worse and that female rape victims are simply "unlucky." '

That's not really the context in which I was using the word 'unlucky'. Also see here:

'Like I said, 'being raped as a woman is terrible luck', of course it is humiliating. But as a man, you are more likely to be anally raped and society is going to tell you that you are less of a man because of it. As a woman, it is a truly horrible and humiliating experience but there is simply not going to be the same emasculating experience. It's always worse for men.'

'The in shape thing isn't true, as women's bodies hold onto fat easier and we can eat far fewer calories. Being slim isn't as easy for women as for men. '

As I said to Heyyakk...

[the_rake]

'tbh, my own personal experience as a man is that it's never been hard staying slim (and we are, generally speaking, bigger builds than women) but nothing in my life has ever been harder than bulking up - doing reps to failure, stimulating muscular hypertrophy, doing tough lifts like squat and deadlift, building up core strength and flexibility required to do this lifts with good form, going into calorie excess during bulking phases, calorie deficit phases to cut down on bodyfat. there are few things in life that challenge you as much physically or psychologically.'

'The "creep" thing isn't all or nothing. Some men are seriously abrasive, intimidating or aggressive in approach.'

Agreed, some men deserve the label. But, like I pointed out in my interaction with Mekkalyn not all men do:

[the_rake]

'Men are often creep shamed just for not being an attractive or confident man when they make an approach. It doesn't mean they are actually a creep. No offense, but as a woman you won't have the same experience getting rejected on mass to find a partner. It's tough work, a little scary even. There's a very good reason PUA (pick-up artistry) is becoming more and more popular with sexually unsatisfied men.'

'Also, I saw nothing about how more boys fall behind & drop out of school.'

It's true. Gender inequality issues is a massive area - too big for me to tackle in one mytake on a site like this, lol. And also, as I have emphasised and will repeatedly emphasise, they are not exclusive to either gender: both genders have their own separate issue. That's why I believe the focus should be on neither men's rights or women's rights but equal rights, and maybe that way both genders will move closer towards resolving their separate issue working together constructively rather than using gender

[the_rake]

warfare tactics.

[Opinion Owner]

I've had a guy tell me he would be turned on by hurting me, a guy threaten me for not wanting to go home with him, guys throw shots at me and a friend for not accepting them, a guy tell a rape joke on a first date, a guy talk forever about his fantasy of beating the hell out of his dad on a first date, a guy try to lock me in his dorm room when he said we were running up to grab something he forgot, etc. Creeps do exist.

I could easily say that as a man, you would never understand what it's like to feel overwhelmed and intimidated by aggressive, larger partners on that one. Helping guys learn good social skills without judgement is better than urging girls to let anything go because approaching is nerve wracking.

[the_rake]

'Creeps do exist.'

Of course.

'I could easily say that as a man, you would never understand what it's like to feel overwhelmed and intimidated by aggressive, larger partners on that one.'

True.

'Helping guys learn good social skills without judgement is better than urging girls to let anything go because approaching is nerve wracking.'

Guys certainly do need to learn good social skills. If they are to impress women with their approach they need to learn:

-confidence
-good body language
-calibration

And much more so that they do not come across as a weirdo to begin with. After that they need to figure out how to keep a woman's interest and become more sexual / flirtatious without overstepping the boundaries. More of it is touch and go than you think. It's just that the men who are successful with women also happen to be the wrong type altogether who don't even take these factors into consideration - they just plow forwards. THAT is why you have so many...

[the_rake]

sexually aggressive and pervasive men being successful with women: they get 'in' before the right kind of guy has a chance to even figure out how to go about things.

'Helping guys learn good social skills without judgement '

What would also help would be if more women were not so harsh on men approaching that they did not necessarily find attractive from the get-go.

[Opinion Owner]

Don't tell me you're one of those "bad boys get all the chicks" types. You seem too open minded for that.

[the_rake]

@Opinion Owner

So you're admitting open minded or otherwise intelligent guys don't get the chicks? ;)

[Opinion Owner]

Nah, that you sound too smart for that phony hype!

[the_rake]

Oh right, I misread what you said but, uh thanks *blushes furiously from embarassment*.

Seriously though, I've never really seen it as 'nice guys finish last' or women don't like nice guys because I'm sure they do. There is actually a different, more subtle issue here in so far as it is about confidence and attractiveness (let's focus on confidence) regardless of whether a man is nice or not so nice. Both kinds of men can be successful as long as they are confident and attractive. But there is yet another category - the introverted analytical sort of men and the extraverted outgoing types. What is true is that extraverts are more likely to be confident - or outwardly confident - because they are not so wrapped up in their heads as the introvert. What is also true is that they are not necessarily bad people in spite of the 'pushy, aggressive' stereotype but that people who do happen to be confident, attractive, extraverted and pushy/aggressive are going to have the most success...

[the_rake]

and cause the most damage to women. The more introverted guys that do have attractive qualities (not limited to their personalities) but find being confident in their introversion a difficult task are going to fill in a void which will be filled in by the former personality type. This will be the case by and large until their late twenties and early thirties. That is because they are like a wine that takes a long time to mature. In the mean time, there will be some good extraverts treating their women well but also a lot of bad extraverts that could be eliminated if more women paid attention to men with introverted tendencies.

So you see, in reality, it's not as simple as nice guys versus arseholes and arseholes winning.

[the_rake]

*if more women paid attention to attractive men with introverted tendencies, because I am not saying that women should remove all their standards and date men that are totally dull, and lifeless of personality or interests. Rather that, sometimes the passion needs to be drawn out to see the full extent of such an individual's attractiveness (the attractiveness of the inwardly intelligent mind).

[Opinion Owner]

Hmmm, I am a true introvert myself and do not find introversion is a turn off, nor a sign that a person has better character traits. This sounds like a personal hardship, honestly, and not a gender role issue. Saying "people like me" = more likely to be good & "people unlike me" = more likely to be bad is shortsighted.

Social anxiety and introversion are not the same. It's not anyone else's duty to make you more comfortable with making conversation. I say this with great affection, as I have another form of anxiety. Statistically, females are more likely to have anxiety, so there are many who would sympathize with you, actually. This kind of thing is a bummer to deal with, but taking control of it yourself is the best way.

A good way to work on approach anxiety is to make small talk with people like cashiers, waitresses, etc. Then move on to other girls and finally girls you are attracted to. Also, look into Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which isn't touchy-feely stuff at all.

[the_rake]

Tbh I've already worked towards overcoming a lot of my social awkwardness issues - and they weren't all rooted in anxiety but I digress, because this isn't about me, it's about an objective look. Like I say, women will still find introverts attractive but because these men don't quite make it to the headlines they don't get as much attention. And look at what happens to people who only pay attention to the headlines of a newspaper: they don't ever get the full story. It's not even about social anxiety (that's a simplification). Introverts can be very confident in themselves but it's difficult to relate to somebody that sees all the ins and outs of everything when you would prefer yourself to look at the generalisations because it's the easy thing to do.

[thatbishhannah]

There are so many things wrong with this logic that to type all of them out would be mentally exhausting so I'm just not going to do that. However, I will point out some of the things that struck me the most. A. By saying your a feminist, you're not taking away any rights that men have you're just acknowledging a lack of equality. B. You're wrong about the "getting in shape" thing, as estrogen promotes more fat storage than testosterone. C. "Being raped or sexually assaulted as a woman is terrible luck," but for a man its emasculating yadayadayada. Are you kidding me? Are you honestly trying to say that getting raped is any more humiliating for a man than for a woman? And the idea that it's emasculating is also why we need feminism, as feminism also tackles the patriarchy AKA typical gender roles such as those you pointed out and the idea that boys should be taught that it is ok to be emotional or vulnerable. Once again, feminism doesn't preach that women are any better than men, it begs for equality. Calling yourself an egalitarian means that you believe that NO ONE is oppressed including those of other genders, races or religions, and that you consider everyone equal, but by doing this, you ignore what society thinks of these people, and everything remains stagnant. If everyone called themselves egalitarians when slavery still existed in the US, slavery would still exist today bc people wouldn't have seen the slaves as oppressed. If everyone was already equal, egalitarianism would be fantastic, but it ignores the problem.

[the_rake]

Thanks for your post, and allow me to clarify some things that should have been detailed more clearly in the original article:

'By saying your a feminist, you're not taking away any rights that men have you're just acknowledging a lack of equality.'

This is true. However the emphasis of being a FEMinist is on women's rights on the assumption that women's rights are the most marginalised in society, so we need to focus on women's rights to get equality. In this mytake, my argument is that both women's and men's rights can be marginalised, hence the focus needs to be shifted onto a more gender netural term such as 'egalitarianism'. I should have made this clearer.

'B. You're wrong about the "getting in shape" thing, as estrogen promotes more fat storage than testosterone.'

See my interaction with the following users: Heyyakk, Mekkalyn and Entity. I look at this topic from different angles (which should have been elaborated upon in the original article - my fault).

[the_rake]

'Are you honestly trying to say that getting raped is any more humiliating for a man than for a woman?'

I think I explained this well to Mekkalyn when I told her that 'as a man, you are more likely to be anally raped and society is going to tell you that you are less of a man because of it.' Additionally, 'as a woman, it is a truly horrible and humiliating experience but there is simply not going to be the same emasculating experience.'

When you think about this, it makes sense. As a man being anally raped, it is like you are the 'woman' or the 'bitch': for the rest of your life, you will feel like you are not a real man and not just because society tells you so (it is in our nature to be dominant - testosterone exaggerates this intinctive urge). As a woman, you will feel humiliated, degraded and violated. But you will not be made to feel like 'more of a woman'.

I should have addressed this issue more sympathetically because I am sure that some of the people reading this will have

[the_rake]

been rape victims. That said, male rape victims will probably have a clearer understanding of what I mean by 'emasculation'.

[the_rake]

' as feminism also tackles the patriarchy AKA typical gender roles '

This is true, but with egalitarianism, the focus would be on neither men's or women's rights specifically and all forms of hierarchy (including, but not limited to patriarchy) would be attacked.

'people wouldn't have seen the slaves as oppressed.'

Different historical context. For example, I could agree with black rights advocacy when by and large they were still a subjugated group in society. I could also agree with the perspective of women's liberationists before women had basic rights, such as the right to vote.

However, in this article, the perspective is put forward that after three waves of feminism, women have (by and large) attained equal rights. The current context is that gender issues need to be resolved on both sides and (as I have tried to elucidate in the article), neither side necessarily has it worse. That is why a focus on one particular side can be counter-productive.

[thatbishhannah]

Thank you for clearing up your thoughts, however, I still disagree with you on everything except for the overriding idea that men and women should be equal, but the problem is you're viewing the situation with a very narrow-minded perspective. Whether your points were accurate or not, they're petty- sorry you don't want to deal with bitches bleeding out of their vaginas and getting less time off work even tho you're not the one that carried a child for 9 months. Putting all of that aside, sure, women may be closer to equality now in the US then we've ever been before, we can vote right? But there's still a pay gap of 20% for the same jobs!! I don't care about the smaller issues. Unless you're being a sexist asshole, I don't give a shit who pays for the date or holds the door or whatever. Also, you're not taking into consideration women in other countries. In over 120 countries, marital rape is still legal as well as child brides as young as 6 years old, and in 29 countries female

[the_rake]

'Whether your points were accurate or not, they're petty'

It's true that some of the points are smaller issues in society (feminists also argue smaller points of inequality - in fact, lots of the issues are socio-cultural rather than related to government policy and often require state intervention to fix). Not all of the points were small or insignificant though, e. g. the points about violent and sexual assault were put at the beginning for a reason. The point about men having to work more dangerous, monotonous and grimey blue collar type jobs is not a small point either.

[thatbishhannah]

... genital mutation is still practiced. Therefore, women still are oppressed, and the ones who are lucky enough not to be, need to be the ones who step up and fight. So just because in America we don't have it as rough as women in other countries even though we are still the subjugated gender, it doesn't mean we have the right to say "we don't need feminism." It's ignorant, as well as the concept of egalitarianism. I believe in the true definition of feminism and the larger concepts. What this mytake describes are the details that feminazis feed on, but the grand picture is what needs to be discussed in order to get more people on board with the feminist movement. Egalitarianism is blind justice.

[the_rake]

'there's still a pay gap of 20% for the same jobs!!'

I addressed this point (number 6).

'Unless you're being a sexist asshole, I don't give a shit who pays for the date or holds the door or whatever.'

It's good that you are like this. Many women are not.

'Also, you're not taking into consideration women in other countries.'

That's true, this article has a western focus because I believe in the need for feminism in many non-democratic and impoverished countries.

Perhaps you would be interested in my recent articles which clarify some of these issues:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2

They probably won't be featured due to the level of detail (too much for a standard GaG mytake, hence it is in two parts). However, posters such as yourself can feel free to read and maybe comment.

[thatbishhannah]

Another thing, i know you clarified your thoughts in another post, and I know you'll find a way to disagree with me on this as well, but the original points emanated a sexist attitude. I mentioned before that I care primarily about the larger issues and I still stand by that, but I can't help but to get offended when reading this mytake. Whether it's the picture of the girl dancing in comparison to the intense black and white photo of the bodybuilder like that is all we have to do to lose weight, which mind you, is a hell of a lot of work for me being 5'2 and really depends on your body type (whether you're an ectomorph, esomorph or mesomorph, etc), or you saying that men getting raped is emasculating or makes men feel like a "bitch," it insinuates that you feel as though makes are the dominant gender. And aside from the whole sexist thing, turning all of the biological things you mentioned such as pregnancy or periods into a male problem is completely selfish.

[thatbishhannah]

And while we're on the topic of socio-cultural problems, women often get called "bitches" when they become upset over anything or even raise their voice, no matter the cause, and this is something I have experienced time and time again, while for men, to become upset or angry is considered a normal reaction.

[the_rake]

Well since it is a question of sentiment then, I suppose I cannot really change your mind other than to refocus on the broader issue of gender equality. I'm not offended given the fact that gender issues are such a sensitive topic. I would merely have to disagree with the notion that I am a sexist, for example,

' it insinuates that you feel as though makes are the dominant gender '

males being dominant physically or in other ways (e. g. charisma, leadership) does not necessarily make them a superior gender, nor does it justify the subjugation of women. after all, might does not make right, I would never hesitate to emphasise this.

[the_rake]

'women often get called "bitches" when they become upset over anything or even raise their voice, no matter the cause, and this is something I have experienced time and time again, while for men, to become upset or angry is considered a normal reaction.'

perhaps, but men are generally more adept at voicing their concerns without evoking too much emotion. men becoming upset or angry is more likely to evoke a subdued audience out of fear / intimidation more than the idea that it is reasonable, and a strongly dominant male will quickly put these men in their place.

[the_rake]

and I do stand my guns on the emasculating effect of rape. I understand that this sounds sexist to you but it really is not. In all unutterable honesty I would 100 times over prefer to be a woman that gets raped than be a man that does. This is because I have the experience of identifying with the masculine sexuality and yes, the pride and dominance that comes with that. There are no words to describe how I would feel if this was stripped away from me, I might not want to carry on living.

[thatbishhannah]

What it comes down to is that we should just agree to disagree because I could even continue to argue the last points you made. Thank you for responding with honesty and clarity, as that is not common on GaG.

[the_rake]

no problem, also thanks :P

[Anonymous]

1) Who assault the men? Oh yeah men. Men are the vast majority of murders and violent criminals and women are the vast majority of victims killed by their partners for reason like "she wanted to leave me, so I decided to kill her".

2) I had already read the source, it's practical the same source MRA's use and it's completely false. Of course men can get assaulted, but not surely as much as women and surely not more. And if society don't believe women can't assault them, it's because of phallocentric. It's because of the male idea that sex is penetrating someone and since women can't naturally penetrated men, it wouldn't count if they ride the their dick against their will. That's even the reason there are a lot of misogynistics that believe lesbians are virgins if they had a penis inside their hole, or something that look like their dick.

3) Women are genetically predisposted to ruin their body, suffer hours of pain for childbirthing and put life at risk, while the men just orgasm. Nature is so unfair.

[the_rake]

check out my new take,

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

(I addressed many of your points in this new take).

Thanks.

[Opinion Owner]

You made things even worst with new my take and confirmed the sexist view of this article. If you saying men are more likely to be anally raped, you're admitting men are the vast majority of rape perpetrators, even against men, just like them are the most murders. And for a woman being violated and treated as sex object isn't better than a man taking it in the butt. A lot of men naturally like anal because of the prostate stimulation. Women that fear to be emasculated if they do something similar to a woman, show great insicurity about their masculity. And I don't even mention the ridicolous part about period making women crazy. You're not an egalitarian, like most so called anti-feminism egalitarians you show sexism against women and have exclusive interest for white hetero males, aka the most privileged group of the society, like the typical MRA.

[nymous1234]

There are some good points here but some really hollow ones. Like for example it is a lot more for a man to get their ideal shape, which is typically a muscular body, but there is nowhere near the amount of pressure on a man when it comes to his body as it is for a woman. Also i swore men burn fat faster than women? Also women get a ton of plastic surgery in some countries to attain the ideal shape that the media bombards women with, way more surgery than men which often leads to a host of consequences.

I agree men are way more likely to be victims of assault, I have often thought this as well, but men are mostly attackers anyway so if anything that levels off a bit it is not really a disadvantage more like a crime and violence issue lol

the genetic predispostion is just how things go by nature maybe we could kill ourselves when men are on their death beds to even things out :/ and the emotional turbulence thing is ridiculous. women get their periods and poor men having to deal with it, is such bullshit if a man has erectile dysfunction wouldn't you say poor him -_-

stuff like men are not equally treated in divorce proceedings with regards to custody i somewhat agree with but you barely touched on

[Vasiliy]

Erectile dysfunction is completely different. Pretty sure that doesn't effect your mood. (not sure tho)

[nymous1234]

feminism is actually very important to me cause it highlights those who are vulnerable in this world and i know this article is geared towards the western world which i am not part of but i cannot help but feel a little irritated when i see this.
by the way rape is humiliating and emasculating for a man and is humiliating and dehumanizing for a woman, you kind of portrayed male rape as worse, hope that wasn't your intention.

[the_rake]

'there is nowhere near the amount of pressure on a man when it comes to his body as it is for a woman'

In terms of social standards (magazines, etc.), I don't know if this is true or not true. Lots of men will think you are a pansy or something if you don't have a masculine physique. When it comes to dating girls of average or above average attractiveness, I think this is not true because women are typically hypergamous so men have to put a lot of work in to stand out from the crowd.

'men are mostly attackers'

Sure, it is men attacking men. But this still makes it a disadvantageous situation for non-violent men who get assaulted for looking at some violent man the wrong way.

'the genetic predispostion is just how things go by nature'

True, this is not society's fault. It is more directed at the women saying they have things rougher genetically, e. g. because of periods and child birth. Also, while it's not society's fault that men die sooner, it is society's fault that our pension

[the_rake]

age is later.

I addressed the emotional turbulence thing better in the comment section actually. I agree that it was poorly phrased (I actually lost the original draft of this and had to retype it so I did not do it as thoroughly the second time round). Like I said to musicbrain,

' I should have said something along the lines of,

'more men than women have to deal with emotional turbulence from their spouse in a relationship - this is excacerbated by natural hormones during ovary cycles. women have to put up with their own issues but they are not necessarily disadvantaged since a lot of men will have to deal with their issues also - which are not their own. women can also control whether or not they project their emotions on to others.' '

'stuff like men are not equally treated in divorce proceedings with regards to custody i somewhat agree with but you barely touched on'

Yeah, I did get a little lazy on some issues.

[the_rake]

'by the way rape is humiliating and emasculating for a man and is humiliating and dehumanizing for a woman, you kind of portrayed male rape as worse, hope that wasn't your intention.'

ok, I think I addressed this issue pretty effectively in discussing with mekkalyn:

'Respectfully, I've never agreed that there is no such thing as varying severity when it comes to a sexual assault charge. For example 'sexual assault' can be limited to inappropriate touching or it can be straight forward rape. It can be oral rape, vaginal rape or anal rape (the most painful and humiliting of the three in my view). It could also be date rape (where the victim is not conscious) or it could be a violent gang bang. The rape could even involve actual torture. '

[the_rake]

...
I understand why people say there is no such thing as 'worse' sexual assault: it is to show respect to the victims of sexual assault and for this I have empathy. But objectively, it is not the case. A UK politician said the same thing as what I am saying now a few years ago and got a lot of bad rap for saying that some rape cases are worse / more violent and should face greater legal consequence (longer sentences, etc.). But he was right.'

[the_rake]

@Nymous

those were the wrong points but they are relevant also.

here:

'Like I said, 'being raped as a woman is terrible luck', of course it is humiliating. But as a man, you are more likely to be anally raped and society is going to tell you that you are less of a man because of it. As a woman, it is a truly horrible and humiliating experience but there is simply not going to be the same emasculating experience. It's always worse for men.'

[hellionthesage]

It is true that men burn fat much faster then women (we have greater muscle mass and muscle requires more energy to maintain ergo fat burns faster) howeve about 1% of men will develop eating disorders and 2-4% of men will use steriods as opposed to women where their is only 1-2% who develop eating disorders and (as far as I can tell) no significant number who use steriods. The fact is that much of the pressure for a womans looks comes from women, yes men do have a part but the majority of it comes from women (look at all the magazines written by women for women and see who is on the cover and what articles lie within) The other issue is while the view on women has changed substantially it has not for men, men are still expected to be the same way, you don't hear about real men having curves do you? Look at men in media/billboards etc and you'll see that if they are their to look attractive they all look the same ie muscles tall square jaw etc. The difference is due to differnent criteria

[Loligirl]

I'm getting really sick of hearing MRAs whining about their feels.

To put this in layperson terms: If you're a cis white male, life is easy for you. Life on Auto-Pilot. You have it the easiest out of all of us because you don't have to worry about being discriminated against (you do the discriminating), you don't have to worry about being stalked, assaulted or raped (more often than not, you're the stalker, the assailant and the rapist and you get away with it because our judicial system favors cis-white men) and you don't bear children (you fuck and run, leaving the mother single and alone to raise the child by herself).

Yeah, sure, whatever, you have problems. We all have problems, but Cis-White Men have no right to complain because of your privilege, and when you do lose your power and privilege, which is happening right now, good luck on finding a shoulder to cry on because I sure as hell don't want to see your tear and I don't want to hear your wimpering, so go crawl into a hole.

I'm sorry, but hearing the privileged class whine about their "troubles" pisses me off to no end.

[AdamThomas]

"If you're a cis white male, life is easy for you."

I suppose you speak from experience?

[the_rake]

I'm not an MRA, I'm an egalitarian. Not saying men have it worse than women, I am saying that by and large we both have advantages and disadvantages that come with our gender and therefore nobody should be a feminist OR an MRA. We should all be egalitarians and the focus should be on this not demonising any particular group, including 'cis-white men', because that would be counter-productive to equality. 'cis-white men' are not necessarily the priviliged group in society as I already highlighted in the mytake. Everyone has their problems, as you correctly identify which is all the more reason to be an egalitarian.

[the_rake]

by the way, the priviliged group in society are the financial elite and the politicians with their hands in their pockets, not ordinary working class or middle class males.

[Loligirl]

@AdamThomas No, it's obvious. You pieces of shit run the world and have for centuries, to the cost of everybody else.

Know your privilege.

[the_rake]

us pieces of shit? so it's all cis-white men that are to blame for the actions of the financial elite and politicians (which by the way were never designed to benefit ordinary lower class cis-white men who carried their own burdens along with men and women from all ethnicities).

know the real enemy.

[AdamThomas]

I don't run anything.

[AdamThomas]

You should look into who actually runs the world too, you'll find that they're not all cis-white-men, or at least they don't consider themselves to be.

[Loligirl]

@AdamThomas It doesn't matter.

White Skin + Penis = Privilege. Why is that so hard to understand?

[AdamThomas]

Of course it matters. You claim that I have privilege because "I run shit", and because "white-cis-men run shit", when neither is true.

[nymous1234]

I kinda have to agree with this comment though... just not sure what an MRA is tho lol :(

[Loligirl]

@nymous1234 Men's Rights Activist- they believe that Men should have more rights, as if they don't have enough anyways.

[nymous1234]

Lmao I know right

[Calex]

I'll refer you to this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61Cg0KtpD2E
If you don't watch this then you're ignorant.

[Calex]

You have to understand that people are different. Just because most men are successful doesn't mean all are. Did you know that most homeless people are men?

[SilenRose]

@Calex Well that was ignorant of you to say.

[Calex]

@SilenRose Not at all. I am a considerate person. Is she? We'll see.

[the_rake]

@nymous1234
she's deliberately spreading misinformation and ignoring arguments to the contrary. a very machiavellian debating tactic I'm all too familiar with.

MRAs believe men's issues should be brought to attention in a world where a lot of women's issues have already been dealt with after three waves of feminism. It's not more rights for men, it's equal rights all round.

[RansomDraven]

This comment is full of lies and enormous generalizations😏.

[the_rake]

@RansomDraven

Mine, your's or Loligirl's? ;)

[RansomDraven]

@myTake Owner... definitely loligirl's. Lol😋

[the_rake]

@RansomDraven ok! lolol :P

[sdistotallyme]

"f you're a cis white male, life is easy for you. Life on Auto-Pilot. You have it the easiest out of all of us because you don't have to worry about being discriminated against (you do the discriminating)," yes having white male penis means I live in a fantasy land of unicorns/rainbows. I never have been called a cracker/honkey before. I never had a homo try to hit on me and when I said "get away from me" everybody turned around and called me a "homophobe". I've never been labeled a creep for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the girl than other the fact she doesn't like me. I've never had a woman run up the $200 bill on the first date and never hear from her again (I've wise to that bs). I've never had a liberal colleges & hollywood demonize me for every fucking ill in this world. I've never been called a "pussy" when I acted depressed & upset after I had girl break my heart. Get your head out of your liberal ass. Your the one that has it better off.

[Mesonfielde]

""" If you're a cis white male, life is easy for you. Life on Auto-Pilot. You have it the easiest out of all of us because you don't have to worry about being discriminated against"""

You say that then discriminate against all white males based on physical sex and racial origin. Well done, you managed to be both sexist AND racist, WHILE being a hypocrite.

[LoveLikeRockets]

@Mesonfielde This is woman is a fucking idiot.

[Maverickj]

Provide sources or GTFO.

Women don't get drafted in 99% of the world.
Women get free passes on rape claims.
Women don't get their genitals mutilated at the age of 2 over "hygiene" reasons.
Women actually get listened to when raped or domestically abused.
70% of non-reciprocal domestic violence is initiated by women.
Bearing children does not entitle you to privilege.
If our legal system favors men, why is Tyler Kost in jail despite evidence that he was set up?

Just "Male privilege", right?

Also, you say white men don't get discriminated against, but you are literally doing so now! You're dismissing their points and problems because they supposedly "have it easier". That's sexist. Nice hypocrisy! Though I suppose hypocrisy is the main mantra of feminists. You're no different.

Also you better provide some credible sources, because so far you have mentioned none.

Are you gonna block me, like you blocked everyone else who disagrees with you? You're not interested in debate at all.

[the_rake]

@Maverickj I would just emphasise that while a lot of this is true, it is mostly true in the western world. e. g. female mutilation does exist, and women's rights are SEVERELY neglected compared to men's but this is in different hemispheres. In the western world, women have a much stronger leg to stand on and it's time more focus was put on addressing men's issues. This was the essence of the mytake - not to marginalise any particular group.

[hellionthesage]

"Cis-White Men have no right to complain because of your privilege" Your aware that you just judged a person based upon their gender identity, race and gender right? You managed to make a prejudice, racist and sexist remark all in one sentence which is actually kind of impressive. But the truth of the matter is tha women are the safest of any group, if you look at the statistics women are actually less likely to suffer anything then even children, the ordering of safest to least safe is women, female children, male children, men. Again according to all statistical data we have gathered to date. As for privledge, what are they? So far you have made an ample point of showing that the only "privledge" that a white male has is that they get to be dismissed out of hand as if they where not people, that they are not as important as others are and that they have no right to complain, a right all others seem to have, a right you have. That seems to be the exact opposite of privledge.

[Dindu_Nuffin]

If you've ever wondered why people have such a negative view of contemporary feminism, your comment sums it up perfectly. You don't want equality, you want a victim complex so you can blame white, cis males for all your problems.

[the_rake]

@Dindu_Nuffin Yeah, basically her statements are very misleading and full of generalisations that she hasn't cleared up. There's no point discussing with her.

[Takyon]

No, if you are a white woman life is on auto pilot! Everyone does everything for you! Feminists like you act just like kids! *my life is so hard, people won't let me do stuff xD*

[Anonymous]

Ook, so I'm definitely the egalitarian over feminist type, but I feel like I need comment on some things.

Men are more often the victims of crime overall. They are more often the victims of different categories of crime outside of sexual assault. The disparity is even greater when we consider all "severe" crimes together, even when we include rape.

Isn't the average lifespan for guys only like 5 years shorter, both genders often still get into there 80's as I understand it, so it doesn't seem like a huge deal to me, I don't know.

Emotional turbulence would scale proportional to how out of control the woman gets. So the more men "suffer" this the more women have to be suffering this as well. I imagine it sucks if you lose control of yourself in a bad way. Plus you don't have to deal with it as a single guy.

Men get less parental leave because of biology, this doesn't bother me. Although some places have ridiculous amounts of parental leave for women. I'd watch out for that.

Girls don't generally like big and bulky, dude. I'd go easy on the weights. To alter your statement I'd say it's easier to be physically attractive as women just because that's the nature of our sexuality.

Generally, I'm not sure men are outright shamed but you generally won't be anywhere near as attractive if people are aware of counseling. Also, the system is designed for women's style of counseling so that's another disincentive.

[the_rake]

As far as I can see you agree with me about more men being victims of violent assault?

I guess it is not a huge deal, but then the retirement age should surely be the same for both genders and it makes one wonder why so many women prefer to date older men given their biological inclination to live longer.

Yes, but it is possible to control your emotions - even when they are particular strong and negative. You cannot directly influence the emotions of your partner, nor should you be expected to soak them all up like a whipping dog.

Like I said to Mekkalyn, I'm not talking about winning the next Mr. Olympian pageant, but girls do like a bit of mass and it's tougher to get that than the size 12 model (size 12, not size 10) that most men typically prefer.

So you agree that counseling for men is not in a positive state of affairs?

[Opinion Owner]

Yes, I wanted to point out that it wasn't just assault. They are also more likely to be victims of strangers. Walking down the street is literally at least just as dangerous for men compared to women. Even criminal males exhibit qualms about hurting women.

Yes to the retirement age, I forgot to mention that.

It's possible to control them but I can't imagine that being unable to control them and ending up doing the whipping is a pleasant experience either.

Generally no, counseling isn't built for men. More women use it, thus it's designed to cater to their needs, thus more women use it. I have heard of a few people doing talks, research, writing books and whatnot relating to how men usually deal with shit, so I think things may just now be beginning to change.

[the_rake]

Ok I agree. Most of the points are subject to debate like I said to another poster on here. The underlying theme here is that women don't necessarily have it easier or harder - that's why we should be egalitarians rather than feminists.

[Aeliuz]

Also, men have a huge disadvantage in family courts about custody, and are still forced to pay alimony even though women have the same economical possibilities as men nowadays.

Men get longer prison sentences than women for the same crimes.
I'm not totally against this, but it is nonetheless not equal.

Young boys in school are discriminated against for being boys. They are punished for being boys and not calm as young girls.

Men are about 40% of victims of domestic abuse (women being the perpetrator). And they are often not taken seriously if they report it, or laughed at for not being manly enough.

[the_rake]

yep, it's true there were lots of things I didn't address.

[Aeliuz]

You did good though.

[the_rake]

thanks

[Zendrya]

I am definitely an equalist and agree with your opening paragraph but a few of your points were irrelevant to the discussion. The way a woman and man's body is built cannot be changed, life span cannot really be changed, also the period thing also felt unnecessary. It made the myTake look unprofessional.

[the_rake]

hmm maybe I will write another mytake to clarify some of these issues.

[Zendrya]

Sounds like a plan

[the_rake]

Here it is:

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24039-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-towards-egalitarianism

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a24040-the-focus-of-gender-issues-should-be-shifted-to-egalitarianism-part-2

[Anonymous]

I don't understand these women saying number 8 is not true. It is completely true. The difference is women have more pressure to stay fit than men do, as well as generally being judged more on their looks and they tend to be unsure of how they are supposed to look.

That is all true but the fact is a healthy diet and lifestyle is all women really need to look good. Most of them will naturally grow into their ideal shape if they just maintain their body. But for men to reach their ideal shape, we have to not only eat healthy but constantly push our physical limits and grow pounds of muscle onto our body while also keeping off the fat. It's much harder work, though women don't judge our bodies as much that doesn't change the fact it's more difficult to reach our ideal shape.

[the_rake]

yep and a bit of pressure to look good and stay healthy isn't that bad considering it really isn't that hard unless you are morbidly obese to begin with.

[the_rake]

'for men to reach their ideal shape, we have to not only eat healthy but constantly push our physical limits and grow pounds of muscle onto our body while also keeping off the fat.'

can totally relate to this.

[Desten-y]

I've found that when women say they are gay/bisexual people seem to be okay with it, however, when men say they are gay/bisexual, it's the end of the world... I remember one day this one kid told me that being gay for men, is different from women being gay.

[Bluemax]

As for women's periods, men are not at all the only ones who suffer. Women suffer a lot more than we do. I spent a week in Hawaii with my student's family and their two female guests (both late twenties). The mother and the two guests were all having their period at the same time. How did I know this? They told me so when I asked why they wouldn't go swimming. They weren't mean, or angry, or emotional. The overwhelming majority of women don't act nasty or mean on their periods. Some do, but most don't. Just like the overwhelming majority of men don't smash things when their team loses sporting events. Some do, but most don't

[the_rake]

Yeah, it was a weak argument. Still, men have to cope with more emotional drama on the whole in relationships than women, it seems.

[JRICHARDS1996]

You want my opinion, I'm a Mexican American and therefore I know I've had it harder than the vast majority of feminists who are also privileged White females. Yet I've never felt the need to complain about it nor demand handouts like certain other minorities, but choose rather to work through my problems independently for the sake of honor. At least I can hold my head up high among my colleagues knowing they aren't thinking "affirmative action" at the back of their head. I think that any attempt to monopolize disadvantage by any single group is a failed program from the outset since usually it is dependent upon multiple factors, race and gender being among them, but even individual circumstances as well. Hence why I also oppose egalitarianism, since I do not believe that all humans are equal given our differences. Instead I support fairness.

[Anonymous]

Most of the points stated here are bullshit. "Men don't get as much parental leave" maybe because it wasn't you who spent 9 months of your life carrying another human being inside you or had to go through childbirth and it's usually the mom who spends the majority of time taking care of the child? More men are victims of assault caused by, guess what, OTHER MEN!! The period thing is also bullshit, stop being little bitches, girls are the ones who are bleeding out of their vaginas for seven days every month for at least 40 years.

[thatbishhannah]

These fuckers, this post made me furious

[the_rake]

First thing: both genders could probably do with more rights from employers regarding parental leave and although women should by and large have longer time off work due to biology, this doesn't mean that parental leave as an issue should be marginalised for either gender.

'girls are the ones who are bleeding out of their vaginas for seven days every month for at least 40 years'

Biologically this is a disadvantage for women (as are erectile dysfunction, higher cancer rates [namely prostate] and lower life expectency for men). However biological disadvantages are never the fault of the opposite gender or society, therefore for things like emotional turbulence (not exclusive to period pains), people have a responsibility not to externalise their own issues onto the other gender. Not all women do this, but lots of men will be able to attest that it is something of a common theme.

[the_rake]

'More men are victims of assault caused by, guess what, OTHER MEN!!'

This still means that it is a disadvantage that non-violent men should not have to deal with. We should also look at the way society treats this disadvantage, e. g. by dismissing its significance ("it's men's own fault if they are going to be violent towards one another") or by neglecting to emphasise the importance of male self-defence lessons at a young age on the false assumption that women need it more because they are physically weaker.

[musicbrain5]

A good take but I think number 5 brings it down a bit because:

A) You make it sound as though all women go through bad mood swings when there are many who don't.
B) Those of us who do have emotional turbulence have to deal with it too. It's not like we do it on purpose where we can control the surges in hormone levels, and we can just decide when to annoy our boyfriends or whoever.
C) I personally had two different doctors (both women by the way) tell me to just deal with it and suck it up because I'm a woman and we should know how to handle it. It hurts to have someone (partner, family, even DOCTORS) tell or show you that you're too much for them to deal with. That you're an inconvenience, basically.

Besides that ridiculous statement, the rest is good. Although I'm wondering how many of those physical and sexual assault perpetrators are men themselves.

[the_rake]

ok, I can see the women's point about number 5, and you are not alone in this. I should have said something along the lines of,

'more men than women have to deal with emotional turbulence from their spouse in a relationship - this is excacerbated by natural hormones during ovary cycles. women have to put up with their own issues but they are not necessarily disadvantaged since a lot of men will have to deal with their issues also - which are not their own. women can also control whether or not they project their emotions on to others.'

yeah, a lot of the physical and sexual assault perpetrators will be men - in fact this is what makes it worse because men are more violent and being anally raped is the worst form of rape in my opinion (especially if you are man and it happens to you because then society tells you that you are less of a man because of it).

[hellionthesage]

of the 40% statistic that is purely female perpetrators, if we factor in male perpatrators its 1% and if we take into account prison rape men are actually far more likel to be raped then a woman, I think its almost 4x as likely. Also the 40% is based in a society that generally refuses to acknowledg male victims of rape at the hands of women so their is a good probability the number is higher (the argument men can't get raped because they wouldn't be able to get an erection if they didn't want it comes to mind).

[AvaMarina]

I agree with a lot of these points, and some of the disadvantages that men face are really horrible. There's so much that's frustrating to bear witness to, let alone experience, and I'm glad that people are beginning to talk about it more.

5 was unnecessary though. Mekkalyn covered that point pretty well, in my opinion, so I'm just seconding what she said about it.

I noticed in a few other comments that you mentioned women causing more emotional drama in general, and I feel like that would've been a better point to make than the period, haha. Just based on casual observation, it seems to me that girls are sort of enabled from a young age. If they're being irrational, overdramatic, bratty, whatever, they get more leniency than guys do just because they're girls and it's almost expected. So it's like we learn that it's okay for us to act that way, and maybe that's one source of the problem.

[the_rake]

yeah there was a lot of consensus on 5, it seems - it was a dumb argument. yup women can be quite prissy, for me the only thing that seems to work is to abandon logic, or to use it but only when you want to emphasise a point.

[AvaMarina]

Yeah, that's what I have to do with my mom and two of my friends. It works, but it's annoying. I will admit I catch myself being ridiculous sometimes, but I at least apologize and make an effort not to do it in the first place, lol.

Anyway, this is a good take! Glad someone wrote it.

[hellionthesage]

Very true, I think a better argument would have been that when a woman is on her period she is allowed what amounts to a "get out of jail free" card. She was a horrible person? Its not her fault she was on her period. I had a girlfriend like that, she elbowed me in the head and apparently I was expected to except that it wasn't her fault because she was on her period.

[AvaMarina]

@hellionthesage
That's true, I actually forgot that people try to play that card, haha. Periods are not excuses to be jerks, for sure. The emotions are pretty much out of our control, but our actions are still our own responsibility!

[hellionthesage]

precisely.