An argument against bathroom segregation, from a woman!

[dragonfly6516]

Google "Club1" in Savannah Ga. You'll see some pretty famous names from the Trans community, and it's a well-known gay bar and nightclub.

I used to visit the club every Thursday night in the early 2000's for the themed "Goth NIght". The club has 3 floors, and on Thursdays, the main dance floor was always an 80/20 mixture of mostly hetero male and female 18+ art students, and military.

There were no established "Men's" or "Women's" rooms. There were stalls, or urinals. The entire "stalls" bathroom, other than the space inside the stalls, could be seen from the doorway, which was always open. The straight men often used the "stalls" room for the safety of privatized wooden walls. I honestly feel that forcing the men to use the "urinals" room would have been unfair here, as they woudn't have felt comfortable in believeing that every man would be staring at their junk.

I'm straight myself, but I knew going into the bathrooms that someone in there might decide to stare, leer, or even physically flirt and grope me. The ONE time I ever felt that I may be in some kind of danger, it was another woman trying to kiss me, very aggressively. I was inside of a stall, sitting on the toilet with my panties around my knees, she forced the door open, and herself onto me. She was a drunk 30-something, at the time I was 19.

It was a man who stepped in to save me, as he was both strong enough to pull her off without hurting either of us, and he was allowed to enter the unisex restroom. A large man with long hair, a mountain man beard, and decked head to toe in leather Harley gear. He wasn't a bouncer, heck I don't even know if he was gay or straight! He was just a decent human being who tried to help someone in trouble. He called a cab for her, put her into it, and then he bought me a coke to try and help me feel better. I have never seen him since, as he was only a tourist passing through.

Bathroom segregation does not prevent or reduce the likelihood of rape or sexual harassment. Last time I checked, humans cannot see through bathroom stall walls. If you're inside the stall, not only can he not see you, you can't see him, not seeing you. If anyone is going into a bathroom to "get their perv on", they're inside a stall where YOU would have to be the one creepin to know what they are doing behind their closed stall door. The bathroom lobby is still a public area where it's ILLEGAL to "whip it out".

Rape, stalking, and harassment are a conscious choice; those who make that choice will still follow you into single sex bathroom to take what they want from you if they are already that skewed to make the choice to stalk and rape in the first place.

Bathroom segregation does not protect your sense of decency, modesty, respectability, or your moral compass. Your own choices do that. No one has any problems using the single bathroom at the jiffy mart, unless you don't use public facilities, so why do we need a second entirely separate room? I thought we were on a movement towards gender equality.

[Anonymous]

There are more important and urgent problems to be solved in the world. I remember at my university, a place pretending to actively stand against the world's most pressing problems, some students would constantly annoy everyone with this sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, but I honestly think there are things that are worth our attention more. Like in some places people don't even enjoy the luxury of this kind of bathrooms. Clean water? Not even for srinking, let alone to flush the toilet with. How about a take on that?

[dragonfly6516]

This take was only meant as an opinion on an issue that I have first hand experience with. I did not post this for education or awareness. But in the end it doesn't matter what any of us post, because people will only read about issues they care about. Americans in particular don't care about issues that they don't have to deal with. I personally go out into the homeless camps in my city once a week to offer jugs of water, batteries, help build, or offer help in finding connections and resources to help themselves. My best friend is living out there. We've been keeping video logs of his life out there, and when he's left there, we're going to post his full experiences online.

[QuestionMan]

There are 2 problems with allowing trannies access to another genders bathroom.
1) It's a slippery slope that anyone can use to get in and possible sexually assault a woman.
2) It accepts transgenderism as normal rather than a mental illness which it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWChFdfH94g

[kisnome]

YouTube removed this video

[RichardHarrow48329]

I love Ben Shapiro

[Sweet-and-Sour]

If the stalls are redesigned so its harder to peek into the stall, then maybe... But for now, I'd prefer to do my business with only other females around. I like to feel safe when dropping trou.

[BambooforPanda]

Love this take

[Rawrzz]

Well, hey. Urinals are kinda uncomfortable, but they're efficient.

"Bathroom segregation does not protect your sense of decency, modesty, respectability, or your moral compass" I seriously beg to differ. While it might not be an good method to combat sexual assault, why would you *want* male/female public bathrooms? Seriously. Men's rooms are gross, a lot of the time. They piss all over the floor. Leave shit in the toilet from time to time. It smells horrible. It's just. If I could get a free pass to go into a female restroom, I would totally do it. I've been in a female restroom--I was pushed okay, I was pushed--it smells like flowers and is perfectly clean. Why would you honestly want to mix the two?

[dragonfly6516]

You're sadly mistaken. Female bathrooms are just as nasty.

[Rawrzz]

Hmmm. Oh. Well. I'm ironically saddened and also happy at the same time. Still. Even if there is no motivator to keep them apart, what would be the motivation to combine them?

[HappyVegan]

I like the article in the sense that it made me think, but I'm curious, where's the research to back up this statement: "Bathroom segregation does not prevent or reduce the likelihood of rape or sexual harassment"?

I'm also not sure that "gender equality" necessarily dictates that we use the same restrooms. What's next? Gender equality in fashion? Women wearing jeans they can't fit into or men wearing jeans that are too loose around the hips?

: )

Still liked the article though even though I feel like there are some things left undiscussed.

[OlderAndWiser]

Anecdotal evidence is extremely weak evidence to support an argument.

[KRIEL55]

how are separate bathrooms segregating. there are very good and serious reasons why we have separate bathrooms (the main one is rape) and not only would more women be raped, men most likely would be too. after being checked out by women while using urinals. yeah it'd really help out the LGBT community but they wouldn't be the only ones going in there. i bet plenty of straight people would go in there too just to rape someone

[dragonfly6516]

And how does segregating men from a woman's bathroom keep other women from raping each other? DId you even read the article? Another woman tried to force herself onto me in a non-segregated unisex bathroom, and she forced her way into the stall I was inside of.

[KRIEL55]

but thats less common. i've never had that happen to me but i can see how that could happen ones in a while. rape would be a WAY bigger problem if men were allowed into womens bathrooms.

[Red_Arrow]

About using the single bathroom at the jiffy mart (almost said jiffy lube), it is a single person at a time bathroom with a lock, so of course people do not have a problem with it.

Beyond that... I pretty much agree with all. I used to bounce at a gay bar, It was in a bar that used to be a straight bar, so normal male and female restrooms. But having been converted to a gay bar, different "rules" applied. Basically you used whichever bathroom had room. Both sexes were using them. Probably 80% to 90% were gay, but nobody minded at all.

Some nudist resorts, especially the smaller ones, use one restroom for both sexes, using the common sink area and several individual stalls.

While in Japan many years ago I went to a theater that had one bathroom. As you walk in you walked past a long line of urinals, and then there were the stalls. Urinals were obviously being used by males, stall by both sexes. Women walked behind the men at the urinals to get to the stalls. And everybody was happy.

In today's society, single bathrooms for both sexes will generally not be accepted. People are raised to believe that separate facilities are necessary. (At least in the western countries.) But among the gays, and many of the younger partying set, single facilities are acceptable or at leat closer to acceptable.

Excellent Take.

[mistixs]

"Rape, stalking, and harassment are a conscious choice; those who make that choice will still follow you into single sex bathroom to take what they want from you if they are already that skewed to make the choice to stalk and rape in the first place."

What if a guy gets turned on by hearing a woman piss or shit (yes I've heard that some men do get turned on by that)

[ColinHarvey]

Yeah, men can't control themselves when they hear pee. When I pee and it hits the water I just get hypnotized like, "rape rape rape rape rape," starts pounding in my head.

[mistixs]

@ColinHarvey Most men aren't rapists but there are some creeps out there and I'm just against anything that may cause even one more rape to happen.

[ColinHarvey]

I'm good when I take my sterilizer pills. But I gotta bust a load when that funky rhythm starts drummin'

[astrOnaut01]

@ColinHarvey I know, right? Every time I pee it's like a switch turns on and I'm suddenly baring my teeth and sniffing out the nearest victim then everything turns to black. Next thing I know, I'm half-awake, naked on top a hay pile in some barn in the middle of nowhere.

[dragonfly6516]

There are women who get turned on by this as well, men will still hear such sounds in the men's room, and they still don't choose to rape the other men, or run into the women's room to rape. If they want to go into a stall and listen to me piss and have a yank, how would I even know to care unless I was peeking in on them to see them doing it? The sounds of moaning and groaning from pleasure? Ever had or heard of hemorrhoids? The pain caused by voiding the bowels can also cause similar sounds, like moaning and groaning.

[dragonfly6516]

The don't go outside. EVER. You're a TEENAGER! That's a huge turn on to a lot of guys, knowing you're so young, so weak, so defenseless!

[mistixs]

Well men are much brutely stronger than women. A man could more easily defend himself against a man (or woman), and a woman could more easily defend herself against a woman. Not to mention most women aren't sexually interested in other women, but most men are sexually interested in women. Plus men are much more likely than women to assault random people in public

[mistixs]

And the difference in telling teen girls not to go outside, in order to avoid rape, is that you're putting the responsibility on females not to be raped by males, rather than putting the responsibility on males not to rape females.

[dragonfly6516]

NO, you're assuming that only men rape, and that I can't defend myself from a rapist. You also give the impression that you have no idea just how large the BGLT culture really is. So you're not only sexist, you're perpetuating sexist stereotypes that encourage men to think of us as weak, and entitled, which is only confirming the notion that women are narrow-minded, and uphold a double standard. Congratulations. You ARE narrow-minded. If you don't want to be raped, by anyone, male or female, don't go outside, and they won't know you exist.

[mistixs]

I'm bi, first off.
Second off, bodily dimorphism is a fact. Men are much brutely stronger than women. Women and men are not psychologically dimorphic but they are physically dimorphic, with barely any overlap when it comes to brute strength. https://www.rochester.edu/news/show.php?id=5382
Denying this only causes harm to women because men DO need to understand that women ARE generally weaker than men, otherwise that could cause physical harm to us.
I don't see how it's anything to be ashamed of.
In fact, I'm PROUD that my gender managed to make it through evolutionary history without having to develop the physical capability to physically harm people. It's just like when feminists want to get into combat positions to "prove that they're capable." Why do we have to be exactly like men to be valuable? Why do we have to prove that we're just as capable of blowing shit up as men are?

[mistixs]

I think that managing to be able to work shit out peacefully like civilized human beings is far superior to blowing shit up. Yes, women can rape. But women are much less likely to assault random people in public. That's an established fact. There are also far fewer women who are attracted to women, and men who are attracted to men, than men who are attracted to women. That's also an established fact, and I'm bi. And how is this implying that women are entitled? That we don't want them in our bathrooms?

[dragonfly6516]

Most rapes aren't random, they are usually committed by someone you know or someone close to you. Most rapes committed on males aren't reported. Most rapes committed by women are committed against underage males who don't even realize they have been raped. FIghting off an attacker doesn't have to be about strength. Remember, rape is NOT at all about sex, it's about control, and fear is the most commonly employed control tactic. Being smart about your surroundings can help you fend off an attacker. Not letting them have control of you through fear can also work in your favor. I am a rape/stalking survivor, not a victim. It was my then boyfriend of 4 months whom I was living with. WIlling vanilla sex wasn't enough for him. I'm not going into details. But it took me a few days to realized what had really happened, and when he made a second attempt, I was conscious, and made mockery of his lack of self control. He stopped and let me go; realizing that I was not afraid, ruined his fantasy.

[mistixs]

You mocked his lack of self control? Laughed at him, etc?

[dragonfly6516]

Yes. I pointed out how it was ironic that he was trying to control me, when he obviously had so little control over his own life, and I smiled at him. The most creepy rude smug smile I could muster. And he lost his mojo, got up off of me, and bluntly told me to "get out". He wanted me begging and crying, so I gave him the exact opposite. He had been pinching, scratching, even biting me, trying to get me to yelp in pain, cry out, any kid of a reaction, and I just lay there quiet and took it. He got pissed, and asked me why I was just letting him, not trying to fight back. I simply said, "Because that's what you want, and you're not getting it."

[dragonfly6516]

I took a serious gamble, but I won out. I knew there was no way I could overpower him and fight him off, but this time, I was awake, so I at least had a chance to try and fight back. I've never been quiet about what happened to me, because silence isn't going to solve anything. And I have never cared about what people would think or say, because he did this to me, he chose to do this, and all I did to "deserve it" was be his live-in girlfriend. He wasn't "entitled" to anything, because I worked, he didn't. I did the laundry and chores, he didn't. His mother cooked all the meals, and did all the shopping, because she worked at the market. Yes, we lived with his mother, who defended what he did to me. That alone should tell you all you need to know about him. His mother controlled every inch of his life.

[gotc147]

North Carolina's bathroom law allows private businesses to set their own bathroom policies, so if PayPal or Apple or Microsoft or anybody else wanted to let men into the women's room on their property they could. This fact makes most of your argument moot.

It wasn't just bathrooms though, it was locker rooms and changing facilities, even communal showers. Are you saying you'd be fine if some strange guy walked into the shower with you? In Seattle a man walked into a women's locker room and started undressing, in Toronto several male students were caught recording women showering in gender neutral bathrooms, these are just the people who got caught recently.

Sexual predators start just by watching, they escalate over time to full-blown sexual assault and sometimes murder, nobody in their right mind would be in favor of opening this gateway to the first step and letting men shower with women.

[Riggers]

Yup, So, Apparently nowa'days its considered sexist and inequality to not want a little girl walking past urinals where 30 year old men have their dicks hanging out...

I am sick to death of how everything, even things like this, That are so completely non issues and utterly pathetic ''social problems'' that are made out to be such a massive issue. When... it isn't.

Tell me, Has the fact you have ever had your own toilet for your gender EVER negatively effected your life? Or the majority of peoples? No, It hasn't..

And no, I like urinals, Unlike women, Us guys do not HAVE to sit down, i LIKE not sitting down. IT IS QUICKER to just go to a urinal. And we should get that because some arty-farty overly sensitive liberal mongtard claims inequality? Fuck that shit.

I do not want to share a toilet with women. I dont want to go to wash my hands to see 20 chicks doing their makeup at the sinks, I dont want to go into a bathroom with tampon machines and shit.

Stop making non issues an issue.

[samhradh_leannan]

I did that when I was little because my dad had to take me to the restroom and he obviously couldn't accompany me into the women's. It seriously was not traumatizing.

[FallOutBoy2001]

@samhradh_leannan YES! I'm not traumatized, I was like "I NEED TO PEE WHERE IS THE TOILET" not "oh my god dicks"

[samhradh_leannan]

@FallOutBoy2001 Haha exactly, you're just going to the restroom, it's not a big deal. Also people are pretty discreet, they're not doing the helicopter all over the place.

[ElissaDido]

Eh no thanks,
Keep them segregated.

[Spiorad_Aisce]

Great take - I totally agree but I accept some women have genuine concerns whether you think they are justified or not that is why I support having a unisex option for transgenders and non transgenders who support them (I would use unisex option) - I think having laws and repealing laws leads to histrionic debate and doomsday scenarios that feed the campaigns for kneejerk reactions - The doomsday scenarios can go both ways, a transgender MTF who has undergone any procedure to look more like the gender she wants has to use the mens room thus running the risk of arousing unwanted interest, getting unwanted attention and risking possible sexual assault.
My point is while I believe the unisex option is not required, it is a good compromise for those with genuine and reasonable concerns. Plus it takes away ammunition from the people predicting the nightmare outcomes of having new laws or not having new laws.

[AEther]

that's a perfect setup! my worry about unisex toilets was always the idea that a woman wouldn't be safe.(which is a scary, sad truth) but yeah, why have a door at all when you're gonna be in a cubical? an open, visible unisex 'bathroom' nullifies any transgender bathroom issue and protects against same sex rape too!
i feel dumb not to have thought of it, just makes sense!

[Blonde401]

I don't think anyone read this past the title judging by the comments 👏 To you. I love this, it's 100% right. I too have used unisex bathrooms in lots of gay bars and it's never bothered me one bit.

[dragonfly6516]

Thank you, I have gotten the same impression.

[thewanderingme]

no. there's no way in hell I'd use a public restroom with men in them. I already don't like using them with other women in there. at least with other women I feel safe.

[beautifulangel76]

I don't agree with all that transgender stuff. You can't change DNA so no matter what they do they are still what they were born as. It's clearly some kind of mental thing because it was normal they wouldn't have to go through hormone treatments and a lot of other things. We don't need to have bathrooms made just so they feel comfortable. A bathroom is a bathroom. It's a place where people should feel safe and comfortable and I wouldn't feel that way if just anybody could walk through the door.

[ManOnFire]

Still not a strong argument. It will still happen even if bathrooms are integrated, and yes it is going to happen more. You're assuming that rape can't happen just because a man and a woman are both in separate stalls, and not taking into account that any guy could be waiting in a stall pretending to use it, and the moment he hears a woman come in he can easily jump out and force her into his. Or in any other way. Sexual assault will be even far more common once restrooms stop having a gender.

[EnglishArtsteacher]

This is why most women I know support bathroom segregation. I don't blame them either.

[Psi_Unknown]

Ideally and in my opinion, closed-off, private, safe, one-person-at-a-time, bathrooms would exist. In the real-world, when you have to go...

[rjroy3]

From the stand point of smller stores such as small starbucks locations for example. You only go in one at a time. So it doesn't make sense to have a men's and women restroom. Just have two unisex bathrooms and you won't get a big line on one, with a bathroom going to waste. But larger restrooms that hold 3 or more, there should be separation.

[rileypantera]

Holy fuck, thank you! Someone out there finally gets it! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼