A Logical Look At The New Target Bathroom Policy

Geometry
A logical look at the new Target bathroom policy

My goal for this is to see whether this policy is logical or not regardless of your stance on... transgenderism? I have no idea what term to use here. I apologize. I will of course add my opinions in as well but that's not a part of deciding wether it's good or not. Recently Target made a new policy that pretty much makes all bathrooms gender neutral. They say that you can go into the bathroom of the gender you identify as. This was made to help transgender people.

First, is gender and sex the same? When someone is transgender or agrees with the idea, they are agreeing that gender and sex (anatomy) are completely separate. Some get extensive surgeries to change their sex, and some just change their gender. So I will be going by the assumption that they are separate. For ease I will at times use gender to refer to sex. Context should be enough for you to differentiate. If not ask and I will clarify.

A Logical Look At The New Target Bathroom Policy

Second, what is the goal of gender separation in bathrooms? Well, in general you don't want anyone to see certain parts regardless of their gender. But because it might be difficult to separate to an acceptable degree on an individual level the next best thing is by gender. We also separate the bathrooms to presumably stop sexual harassment. Contrary to popular belief this is not limited to female victims. A recent study says 90,000+ households were interviews and they found that 38% of incidents of rape and serial harrasment were male victims. I am assuming this number is a little low because of the aforementioned stigma.

The study isn't a perfect correlation but it serves it's purpose. Anyways, because most people are heterosexual they would be more likely to commit some kind of sexual harasment against the other gender and more likely to avoid their gender. So they are separated. This doesn't fix everything but it the logic is sound. So it seems the prevention of sexual harasment of various forms is the reason it's separated.

How do these two things mix to form our conclusion? Because we are separating gender and sex we can see that gender has no role in bathroom gender segregation. It's purely anatomy. So only identifying as a gender is not enough to go into the other bathroom. If one looks a lot like the gender being transitioned to and maybe getting surgery then it seems logical to go in the previously incorrect bathroom. We can partially further this argument with young children. It is OK if they go into the wrong bathroom for protection, help, and they see the difference in genders but they don't understand or care, and nobody else does either for the just mentioned reasons.

If gender and sex were inseparable then the conclusion does not change. It only solidifies it.

A Logical Look At The New Target Bathroom Policy

And just like that through pure logic we find that it is not enough to only identify as a gender to use a certain bathroom and so Target's policy should be amended.

Now for some other things I want to address. Some people are saying this is hurting women and children. Wow, that really hurts. It implies that men are the ones that are doing all of the attacking and not getting attacked. Especially the attacking part. I am not a heathen that goes around attacking women and my word, children. As I mentioned it hurts when people say stuff like that. Some of you might say that this isn't the message and maybe it is maybe it isn't but nonetheless that implication is hard to ignore. And did I mention it hurts?

I understand that transgender people want to transition in peace and fit in the best they can and receive acceptance. So please do not say I am making light of their situation. I am trying to create an understanding between everyone. To those of you who are transgender I wish you the best of luck overcoming any social issues you encounter because of your switch. 👍

I am hoping that nobody has a problem with these thoughts as I think they are quite logical but I can't explain everything perfectly and I certainly missed something, topped with the fact that people are emotional and think differently, I expect some backlash, misunderstandings and some blocks. Please do not assume I am thinking something, if you need clarification of my thoughts just ask and I will respond and hopefully demonstrate I mean no ill will to anyone.

Please check to see if I have any updates before posting anything.

A Logical Look At The New Target Bathroom Policy
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Most Helpful Guy

  • RationalMale
    Thing is, it's not a question of "bathroom segregation" or such. If people really wanted to end the horror of sex segregated bathrooms... we'd be seeing a push towards unisex restrooms. Which most stores would probably love, since they might be able to get away with one larger restroom instead of two smaller ones.

    This is a question of forcing people to repeat "if a man says he feels like a woman, he is a woman. If a woman says she feels like a man, she is a man." It's a shit test. It's like a bully deliberately stepping on someone's food and then saying, "You need to apologize for being so clumsy!" It's dominance by forcing someone else to accept what you say is true.
    Is this still revelant?

Most Helpful Girl

  • beautifulangel76
    I don't accept all this transgender stuff. No matter how many surgeries they go through or how they feel you can't change DNA so if they were born a man they are still a man and same as if they were born a woman. I honestly do not want to be in the same bathroom as a man and if I had a child I wouldn't want one to be in there with my daughter. I don't care if they are just in there for the bathroom or whatever they don't belong in there. There is clearly something mentally and emotionally wrong with transgender people so why should stores go out of their way to accommodate that?
    Is this still revelant?

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What Girls & Guys Said

1013
  • randomhobo
    Just want to note that transgender is when someone has a gender identity that is different from their biological birth sex, a transexual is someone who takes steps to change their body/bio sex to match their gender identity.

    I'm of the opinion that if someone is transexual, has taken hormones, is passing relatively well- that they should be allowed to go into the bathroom that suits them best- aka the one their identity/changed body matches. Most people won't be able to tell.

    Its not about giving access to a group, its about letting a group continue to do something they've done for ages. Noone noticed up until now (thanks caitlyn for forcing us all out into the forefront...).

    My example of my transition. Whilst i looked like a male, i used the males because its safer that way. When people would gender me female and assume i was female in public is when i went into females. Not had any negative reactions. If someone claims they are female and want to use that room, i think they should at least be on hrt and moderately passing. Otherwise disabled is better and safer for the person to use.
    • Geometry

      Ah I see. That is good to note. I didn't even realize there was a distinction. I agree with your statement.

    • randomhobo

      The distinction i find is quite useful but most people don't use it that much. I think it makes stuff easier.

    • Geometry

      It definitely does I will use it from now on.

    • Show All
  • I think there is a fundamental flaw in the Target/transgender acceptance policy that should be exposed.

    Those who support Target say something like "transgender people have feelings and they feel hurt when they are not accepted. Their life is difficult enough already and we should do what we can to help them with their difficulties." Well, it's okay if someone else wants to do something to help a transgender person; I really don't care. But this kind of "help" means involving other people who haven't volunteered for that role and they aren't being given any choice.

    Normal, conservative, everyday people have difficulties in their lives, too. There is no legitimate way to compare my troubles to someone else's troubles; it's all relative and subjective. I don't have the problems that a transgender has but I am uncomfortable being in a restroom or a changing room with a transgender person. My 85 year old mother would freak out if she ever had that experience. Yes, we have feelings, too. The Target solution ignores my feelings and my mother's feelings, presumably because a social judgment has been made that either my feelings are not valid or are not significant.

    This solution simply transfers some of the discomfort from transgender people to non-transgender people. It ignores our feelings so that Target can be the white knight for transgenders.

    If this is what Target thinks about my importance, it has seen the last of me and my money. Target has a real problem on their hands. Eventually, it will realize that the backlash is too significant for it to endure. How does it then reverse this policy? There is only one solution that allows it to back out gracefully. Remodel every store to create a third gender-neutral restroom. That will be an expensive fix for a very poor decision by Target.

    For the rest of the white knight/social justice warriors: explain why my mother's feelings aren't as important as some transgender person's feelings.
    • Geometry

      You bring up a good logical fallacy these people are trapped in. Unfortunately it has been found that boycotts and backlash like this doesn't really do anything. In some cases like chick-fil-a the boycott back fired and they got sales through the roof. The only kind of boycott that has a good chance of working is a government embargo. If target is stubborn and really wants this policy they have no reason to remove it unless the law gets involved.

  • oddwaffle
    It's an okay policy. I would stick to it because building an extra unisex restroom would cost like 200k for a running business. Multiply that by 1000 stores and you are looking at a lot of money - that could be used to save a lot of people or keeping the cats fat.
    • Geometry

      True but it's not about building a unisex restroom.

    • oddwaffle

      If you want to offer transgender people security and comfort then you can build a new restroom or do what target does.

      While I understand your problem, I don't wanna spend money to fix it and I don't wanna be bothered with some new policy that some people might not like - is generally a bad excuse if you are a progressive company.

      If your company has a problem, you set out to fix it with the least cost. You don't sit around and make excuses. You do something and see what will happen then move on from there.

    • Geometry

      The policy isn't logical and makes lots of people uncomfortable. They showed they were willing now they can repeal or amend the policy with little backlash.

  • rainbowdash_262
    Um hello? What about women privacy? I thought of this. Like wouldn't it be awkward changing TMI stuff when we would be on our... What about school? Please they're not changing that in school. I already feel quite awkward.
    • Geometry

      I doubt that would change in schools. Men and women alike would feel uncomfortable changing together.

  • front2back
    My policy is:
    If we're all getting so fucking worked up about what Target thinks when we currently have huge problem still with the economy and people fucking dying then I guess it's game over.
    • Geometry

      Unfortunately, the existence of a bigger problem does not invalidate the smaller ones. However the economy could use some work.

  • TheDevilInside
    My GOD, what big problems these spoiled people in American have!!! Maybe you should talk about the victim mentality many groups and subcultures in the first world countries have... Fucking spoiled privileged brats.
  • John_Doesnt
    The law barely changes anything. Most transgenders don't look like transgenders. You wouldn't know unless you asked. Also, the new law against transgenders adds a problem for all people because we need ID to go to the bathroom.

    Heterosexuals need to have an ID now too in order to just go to the bathroom. Which is stupid.
  • ManOnFire
    We keep talking about this, and things aren't going to change. And I hope they don't. People are making such a huge deal about giving restroom access to less than 1% of the population - like a friend of mine said, and it's just ridiculous. There should be no gender neutral restrooms. I can't even believe society would rather cry and whine about this then actually get to work fixing the much problems in this world. I don't want a trans woman in my restrooms, and I don't want women to deal with trans men in theirs either.

    Case dismissed.
    • Geometry

      I agree that it's ridiculous and for reasons you mentioned but unfortunately that's not enough for people so I wrote this mytake. Based on the comments here it seems that people are thinking about this emotionally and no amount of logic will sway them.

    • ManOnFire

      Sad world I guess.

  • MasterofYou
    Well it is not the target bathroom policy anymore Obama and the US Justice Department is now telling you Women you have to share your bathroom visits with transgender men... Isn't that just nice... Welcome to the Brave New World..
  • mitch1200
    My question is if it's a one Store bathroom but it since women’s can A guy going in if it’s empty empty
  • QuestionMan
    Well Target went out of business last year in Canada so I can't boycott them. Plus their stores sucked anyways which is why they went out of business.
    I highly doubt that trannies that want to use bathrooms that match their perceived identity want to do anything more than take a piss. My problem with this however outside of the loophole for sexual predators is that it enables them to get a sex change instead of seeking help. Gender Identity Disorder is a mental illness but the main stream media is treating it like people are simply getting a new hair cut and we should all just accept it.
    • For those that had the surgery, they can use disabled person washrooms since it is more suitable for their condition. Otherwise sex=gender and they should stop kidding themselves.

  • skeptic007
    I should go to target and rape a women in the bathroom there making it easier
  • TheSpartan
    I just don't care.
  • Anonymous
    Why is this even a thing? We have MUCH bigger issues to worry about. Global warming, famine in Africa, conflict in the Middle East, financial issues in the EU, drought in India, gun violence in America... countless things and THIS is what we worry about? Unbelievable...
  • Anonymous
    It is purely anatomy, I agree with you. But these people (some of them) live in an imaginary world where, just because they feel like the opposite gender in their own body, everyone should join them in their imaginary world. And that would be no problem if they wouldn't expect everyone else to hop aboard the bullshit train and just guess what's in their minds and hearts. I've been bullied in my university because I dared to say that one needs a uterus to menstruate. Yes, you heard me. A lesbian girl lashed at me, and pretty much gathered other lesbian girls and supporters to gang up on me. Because, apparently, people like me make transgenders commit suicide. Oh well.
    My point is that having a transgender bathroom would make them feel like their imaginary world is real. The world accomodating their feelings makes them feel better, and wow is that an understatement. Too bad the rest of us don't have the same privilege :)))
    So, yes, the 'male' and 'female' signs on bathrooms are there for strictly anatomical purposes, but now we are all being forced to internalize completely new concepts. Because some people who have had the misfortune of being born in the wrong kind of body can't face it.
  • Anonymous
    "The study isn't a perfect correlation but it serves it's purpose. Anyways, because most people are heterosexual they would be more likely to commit some kind of sexual harasment against the other gender and more likely to avoid their gender. So they are separated. This doesn't fix everything but it the logic is sound."

    I don't think the logic is sound though. In order to be sound it has to be proven and honestly it hasn't been proven that humans are more likely to act up, based solely on genitalia, when entering a coed bathroom. Coed bathrooms and showers have existed for years and years and there have not been any links I have ever seen to increased sexual violence, misconduct, or malingering intent regarding communal facilities.

    This issue is not one of gender but of hypersexuality and the sexualization of all practices, hygiene included, since this is far older than the mere news of trans-rights today. From women having lines out the door and some sneaking into the male bathroom just to get it over with to discussions regarding decency rights despite statistical voids dictating the validity of the normative conclusion it's just been a huge blackhole that traditionalism has been pushing for the longest time.

    I however am neither here nor there on Target's decision as it does not matter since it doesn't combat the primary problem of hypersexualizing even the most mundane and necessary human behaviors for health and wellness.
    • Geometry

      Logic doesn't have to be proven to be logical. Facts to need to be proven to be facts. Its logical and just a hypothesis. I agree that coed bathrooms doesn't appear to cause an increase in sexual harassment. For the most part I think it's in people heads. The argument is completely absurd, why would anyone want to commit sexual assault in a bathroom. Just thinking about it there are so many things that could go wrong and you would have to work hard for it. Areas that have these laws in place have seen no rise in sexual harassment of any kind. People are just stupid. Also the study was more of a sub point that doesn't really matter for my argument.

  • Anonymous
    All I know is that everyone plays along because they have been beaten over the head with the rape narrative since birth, facts be damned. When a woman says, and shapes policy around the idea that "men are inherently dangerous to me", it's fine. When a white person says "blacks are inherently dangerous to me", it's monstrous. You can't have it both ways.
  • Anonymous
    There was never an issue for having the male and females rest room separate.. So why fix something that didn't need to be fixed? That I don't understand. It just makes the issue more complicated then it already is.
  • Anonymous
    I did work experience at a large firm that my mum works for. There is this person that works there and he is a guy who wears skirts and dresses. he's around 50, bald and no wig, wears no makeup. Apparently he uses the female toilets.
    This makes me wonder. Where does one draw the line? Hypothetically imagine I said im gender fluid, which is completely possible in todays society we live in. Gender stereotypes are considered wrong so the fact that I wear jeans, no make up, and shirts bares no meaning as to my gender identification. On this particular day im feeling particularly feminine so i decide that im a woman. (Thinking about it this means gender fluidity reinforces gender stereotypes but anyway) The point is; in this scenario can I use the female bathroom?

    Personally I dont see why toilets should be segregated in the first place.
  • Anonymous
    You know Unisex bathrooms where offered but transgender women didn't want that. Its like a spoiled child throwing a fit to get what they want. they are afraid to get raped, but lets be logical how many women get raped and killed every year? they are flexing their male privlage by not caring that women dont want to share the bathroom with them. And it isn't just for Caitlyn jenner type of transgender but those who fall under the umbrella which is gender fluid, non binary , gender queer. so a man dressed like a man can legally use the womens bathroom. So, why are they so against UNISEX bathrooms? It makes no sense,
    • Geometry

      I don't think anyone needs any kind privilege to not care about someone. Anyways it's not "male privilege" happening here, it's just another company trying to be progressive to draw positive support and get free advertising. It's a common advertising tactic. Unisex bathrooms are pretty much what target is doing right now but still mostly seperated and not called unisex. When you said this "but lets be logical how many women get raped and killed every year?" Did you mean there are a lot of cases or few cases?

    • Geometry

      By the way I don't want women coming into the men's bathroom anymore than you want men coming into the women's bathroom.

    • Anonymous

      a lot of cases , and a lot more in the last five years. i know people who are in LBGT areas who are using the bathrooms not coorelating with their sex and dressing according to their gender. So men are using the womens bathrooms and women are using the womens bathrooms. Its making those LGBTQ people uncomfortbale. And hey unisex bathrooms are the way to go.

    • Show All
  • Anonymous
    Well, this opens up the doorway for rapists.

    "Oh, I'm transgender" *5 minutes later it is revealed they were lying and spying on the opposite gender.

    I'm down with Target, Sorry, but I ain't getting raped
    • How exactly does an act of sexual deviancy attribute to you being raped? I get that the term used is "eye fucking" but you're taking that a little too literally aren't you? No body is going to rape anybody in a public washroom. No one is that stupid.

    • Anonymous

      @ThatJarHead actually, I recently read a true story about a girl who was in a bathroom for whatever gender you "feel" you are. She was almost raped

    • Geometry

      I feel like a bathroom might slightly increases chances because it is slightly more private. But anyone who values their freedom probably wouldn't rape someone in the bathroom because it's still a public place in a busy store. This also changes depending on how popular the store is. Anyways I think there is a misconception that slightly removing certain clothes increases chances of getting raped. I am not trying to explain this away. Rape is an issue and if it can be prevented it should be. Also peoples discomfort is another great reason to repeal or amend the policy if the discomfort can not be show to be unrealistic.

    • Show All
  • Anonymous
    Seriously? I don't agree with this at all. I don't want to be taking my children into the restroom and see a trans in there. So a man can just throw on a wig, put on some make up, and head over into the females restroom?
    • Geometry

      He can just walk in without any kind of disguise.

    • I agree. Anyone can say they are transgender and just stroll on into a bathroom. This opens the way for possible sexual assault (making it far easier, let's be honest here) and for perverts who want to spy on the opposite sex. Furthermore, I do NOT, as a woman, want someone who is anatomically male in the restroom I am using. I would feel so uncomfortable, and again I agree with you- I wouldn't even THINK of letting my children use the bathroom with a transgender individual. It's not okay, and the thought is unsettling.

    • Geometry

      @LittleFinch I wonder if it does increase the chances of sexual harasment because even without the policy there isn't much stopping anyone from walking into a public restroom anyways. However if someone saw a person entering the wrong restroom then they could stop that person. If there was that policy they probably wouldn't be stopped. It's seems like an increase but only marginally. Who knows for sure though?

    • Show All
  • Anonymous
    I have no problem if someone trans entered the womans bathroom to pee, its when a creepy man walks in that is the issue and nothing will stop predators ever. I can't imagine if I were trans and having to use the restroom of the gender I was born and not identify with! Im sure they get bullied and harrassed using said bathroom and couldnt imagine what a trans woman would go through using a mens room. I have used mens room for various reasons, womens room was being cleaned or out of order and nothing happened to me. I think some people are too paranoid. I am also someone who has been sexually assaulted and Im cautious of where I am and who is around all the time but its no excuse to be rude and ignorant towards a trans man or woman. Thank you for your post.
    • You should always be cautious about who's around and what your situation is. You run in with someone who decided to be less than human shouldn't be your reason for that. I'm not trying to belittle what happened to you. Just correcting your grammatical error so that people who are less polite don't cause you trouble.

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