Sexual Relationships
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Let’s talk about INCELs!

I might be making a reputation for starting controversial discussions on this site. That’s okay, I guess.

I want to to talk about sexless people today. It’s something I could relate too for a long time. Something that’s still really a part of me.

Here’s some data:

I’m clearly far below average in this respect.
I’m clearly far below average in this respect.

Apparently most single people aged 22 - 35 have 60 - 100 sexual encounters per year. I wouldn’t know; can’t relate to that figure at all. For me it’s more like twice if lucky.

So I was curious, just how many people are going completely cold turkey sexless, without wanting to be celibate? Turns out there is data on this topic. So let’s look at it.

Self-explanatory. Notice the upward trend for unmarried men starting in 2009. Women have remained constant.
Self-explanatory. Notice the upward trend for unmarried men starting in 2009. Women have remained constant.

So it seems around 20% of all men who are unmarried are going totally sexless. I don’t know about you, but that seems like a pretty high number in my opinion. For women it appears to be about 15%. That’s also surprisingly high, but not quite as much.

Historically both sexes were about even around 15%.

The above chart only accounts for people who have been sexless in the past 12 months. It isn’t a chart separating out virgins who have never had sex. For those people, the following data applies.

From 2002 - 2008 the data remains flat around 2.6%. But starting in 2009 it rises all the way up to 4.5%, nearly doubling.
From 2002 - 2008 the data remains flat around 2.6%. But starting in 2009 it rises all the way up to 4.5%, nearly doubling.

Those who live at home with their parents are twice as likely to be involuntarily virgins. Aka. Community college students (this was me 18 -21).

Around 4% for people who had their own place. Around 8% for people who live at home.
Around 4% for people who had their own place. Around 8% for people who live at home.

It also increases in frequency among highly educated people. The more education one has, the more likely they are to be involuntarily virgins.

The trend is clear, except for college dropouts. Who appear to be at similar rates as high school dropouts.
The trend is clear, except for college dropouts. Who appear to be at similar rates as high school dropouts.

Grad students have the highest rates of virgins who’d rather not be at around 10%.

Fortunately most virgins are a small portion of the population, never exceeding 10% of their respective biological sex’s population.

But what about non-virgin men aged 22-35 who are unmarried? 20% of them had no sex in the past 12 months. So who’s having all the sex? The number of women having no sex in the past 12 months remained constant post 2009.

Turns out 20% of single men are having 50-60% of all the sex.
Turns out 20% of single men are having 50-60% of all the sex.

So there is a kernel of truth to the idea that as male celibacy continues to rise post-2009, female celibacy has not risen. Therefore, somebody has to mathematically make that happen.

I’ve heard some social-economists recently take interest in modeling sex as a capitalistic market where women own sex as a resource and try to sell it to men. The comparison made sex like real-estate that needed to be leased.

Property owners advertise their properties to try and attract potential tenets, but they also try to get the best tenets for their rooms in order to keep maintenance low and to reduce financial risk.

I’ve heard economists use this analogy to explain the ‘not asking for it’ movement. The idea is as follows: promiscuous clothing is not an open invitation for sexual behavior, rather it is advertisement and marketing of a real estate property whereby better marketing attracts better potential tenets. In the end only a limited number of applicants can get a lease in a building with finite rooms. So it is with sex.

A way I like to think of this analogy is that sex is like a credit card. If you have no credit it’s hard to get a credit card. It’s the paradox of needing to have credit before being able to get credit. Women are like that too.

No past experience or negative past experience reduces your credit score and makes it more difficult to get credit cards.

Would love to hear thoughts on this. I’m open to controversial comments and healthy debates in the comments section. As usual, ✌🏻.

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Most Helpful Girl

  • Highly recommended video that expresses my thoughts below. Now i'm going to assume the women here are going to make assumptions like "Betas / Incels / Chads don't exist every guy is different" and while i feel the same way a little, every guy is different, these labels are important to bring cohesion to society and culture. Women usually hate these labels because we have big hearts and we don't like downgrading people, we want everyone to get along in our own way and frankly i feel the same

    Incels are inevitable, as we move further into the information era where there's so many escapism from reality via videogames and online forms that meat social status unavoidable for incels to exist in our society as the division between reality and online reality grows. Women however are more extroverted on average so women's version of being an incel is basically attempting to be a celebrity in facebook / twitch / Instagram which replaces videogames and online RPGs, a women's social needs and worship is obtained through online personas as so called "incels" worship and follower her. But incels see these and hate women for it, and that's where the video below falls

    https://youtu.be/n1flcGrb81M

    • I just want to say that I’m actually a philosophy major and I’m extremely impressed. I’ve actually taken a class on both Hegel and Descartes and I have read the Phenomenology of The Spirit and discused the master and slave dialectic in class. I think this is a deep and profound thought you are having, and I sort of agree. I think I was actually touching on this — though I didn’t realize it — when I wrote my next take on self-confidence. The main point there was that the gift confident people bring to society is the ability to see and acknowledge others fully — sometjing someone in a lord and bondage relationship according to Hegel is not capable of. But in order to become capable, one first must see themselves as fully human. Self-confidence manifests itself as this realization. That was the point. You can see my other take and see if you disagree or agree. I’ve always been a huge fan of Hegel. He’s my favorite historical philosopher.

Most Helpful Guys

  • As an expert on the topic of incels I must say this is a well researched piece of content when it comes to the numbers; however I feel that you can't approach what is causing a rise in the numbers of incels from an economic perspective, but a sociological one. I'd like to continue but I'm not at my computer right now, so I'll have to elaborate later.

    • Would love to hear more of your thoughts later when you have time.

    • I want to hear too.

    • I'm very sorry for the late reply, I had all but forgot about this by the time I got my hands on a computer (3 days after I originally replied). I'll start on my explanation Either later tonight (or well later in the morning it's almost 12) on tomorrow afternoon.

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  • Try a non-bullshit source. The "Institute for Family Studies" is an infamous far-right political spew factory.

    Now, if you can back up your numbers from an unconnected source, what you say might be worth talking about.

    • Didn’t realize that.

    • Always cross-check sources and look for agendas.

    • I love all the downvotes from triggered right wingers who hate having their bullshit sources pointed out 😂😂

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What Girls & Guys Said

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  • The last time I had sex was around Valentines Day 2014, months before I decided to go to college. Before that, there was another girl a year or so prior and before that I went five years without sex. The bulk of my sexual experience happened between the ages of 19 and 22 where if it wasn't from getting drunk during club nights dancing dirty to T-Pain it was meeting girls online or when we still had chat rooms or from online dating sites where I actually found interested girls. Then, after 2008, it was a long cold spell... Maybe it was the economy by then.

    Yeah, I am an incel, I struggle socially, I suspect I am on autism spectrum, I have never been able to befriend people, and I am always focused on matters that don't concern socializing, like having enough money saved up to cover me in the future with car break-downs and unemployment while going to college and then focusing on my college. I have a very high GPA but it comes at a cost...

    Honestly, I won't look down at myself. I am the way God created me and I have nothing but a huge heart to give to a woman, as well as my body and lust for ONLY HER if she wants me to be that man in her life. I WILL be loyal to her. However, it is like I get judged too harshly now at my age. I know, I should be living on my own but these days you need a dual-income for that and that is why I couldn't afford to live on my own. I should have a career now, not going to college so late in the game. I should be married or engaged by now, I should have kids a home but I am only made to feel like a loser for my life being the way that it is. Knowing women are now not likely to give me a second look when before I was given a fair chance, it hurts like hell. Talk about unfair.

    I am an incel. I don't want to be but I am... I am not ashamed of it, but yeah, it sucks something fierce...

  • There is no such thing as an incel (involuntary celibate), since if you identify as one you are actually a volcel (voluntary celibate). As soon as you consider yourself an incel that means you have zero confidence, think you are a loser, which will prevent anyone from ever wanting to be with you. If you are sexless but want sex, the *worst* thing you can do is identify as an incel and talk on internet forums.

    • iv found that women hate titles like incels, chads and betas for some reason, but these labels exist for a reason, you don't have to identify yourself as a pedophile or successful to be labeled as such to other people, these titles exist for a reason, its a summery of a persons personality and it brings cohesion

    • " If you are sexless but want sex, the *worst* thing you can do is identify as an incel and talk on internet forums." Very sound advice. I very much agree. However, where I disagree with you is that there's no such thing as an incel. Go visit a state hospital where there are profoundly disabled people. You'll find virtually all of them are celibate, they don't want to be, and there's nothing they can do about it. Or even hang out with disabled/disfigured people. You'll find they too are celibate, don't want to be, and left with virtually no options except sexual surrogacy or prostitution. I also find that the name calling people engage in with incels is every bit as counterproductive as the incels' attitudes. I have no idea why some people think that calling them losers and a host of other names is somehow going to help. Indeed, it only contributes to the problem.

    • I finally understand this comment. You’re making too many assumptions. Never underestimate the lack of development men can have socially. You’re assuming too much of males in terms of social skills. You say ‘there is no such thing as incels’ because I think you are assuming that these men comprehend the value of friendships as a form of self-love. But INCELs do not. They believe friendships and socializing is nothing more than acrobatics, which is more like torturous work than anything resembling a healthy and enjoyable existence. In this way, they expect to be able to attract women with zero friends, zero acknowledgement from anyone else in their communities except for themselves, little to zero participation in outside social events beyond their own bedrooms and no care at all to foster and have meaningful social relationships at all. These are the assumptions they are working from: they say, “why do social skills matter?” “What relevance do they have with anything at all? Isn’t that separate from sex?” They do not realize that there is no difference between social relationships and romantic relationships at a fundamental level. They don’t even acknowledge the idea of ‘relationship’ between people as valid. Women have misinterpreted this notion for ‘entitlement’ but that’s only because I believe most women cannot comprehend the INCEl worldview where social lives do not matter. When translated into a female worldview/perspective the notion of ‘social lies do not matter’ becomes warped into ‘I am entitled to your body without any relationship between us’. Which is almost right. But it’s actually wrong. To get it right, women need to drop the premise that socializing is important to INCELs in the first place. Once they do that it will become clear that ‘entitlement’ is the wrong word. Entitlement becomes translated into ‘bewilderment.’ And that describes the INCEL frame of mind. ‘Bewildered.’ They are thinking, ...

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  • Incels like Elliot Rodger tend to be socially inept in some way. He was spoiled rotten by rich parents which made him entitled and behave like a brat. He wasn’t used to not getting what he wanted in his little world so when he tried to enter the dating market, he thought he had a right to women and a right to sex. In reality, no man does or should.

    • That’s a fair point. But do you think that applies to the 1 in 5 guys that go sexless every 12 months? That just seems like too high of a figure someone. 20% is a lot of people.

    • No you’re right. I think you made a good point.

    • You know thinking about this with regard to my own situation and being that it’s Friday night where I am at, I honestly believe that Porn has something to do with this phenomena. Guys can literally choose to view porn instead of get involved and try to talk to women in real life. It’s a serious problem and can become an addiction for many guys. The treatment is a so-called 90 day period of NoFap. Basically, you don’t orgasm for 90 days. This is supposed to cause your body to reregulate hormonal imbalances due to frequent ejactulation. Things like adrenal fatigue and potassium deficiencies, along with low levels of free testosterone and high levels of cortisol and dht. Not to mention, social skills suffer due to being on the computer instead of interacting with real people. It’s all to easy to stay in and open a web browser. It’s like a box of chocolates just sitting on your countertop tempting someone to just devour the whole box while binge watching Netflix. I bet that out of those 20%, besides the 4.5% that are virgins the other 15.5% I bet at least half of them likely have porn addictions. The other half probably have easily correctable traits, or less easily correctable traits such as being over weight or w/e. But realistically anyone can become fit. Anyone can become a body builder. All it takes is a few moths of dedication and healthy diet and the muscle starts to stack up and the fat disappears. For those with porn addictions, I suspect they have things a little bit harder. NoFap is pretty tough! Lol!

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  • All that is necessary for them is copious levels of relentless teasing, combined with scorn, ridicule and contempt. Just drive them/us crazy with jealous frustration every chance you get, and everyone will be fine.

  • Holy shit, OP, this take is terrible.

    Incels are losers, and I think you should drop the "sexual economics" stuff. It's pseudo-science, or maybe "pseudo-humanities".

    I was an incel myself for a while, and it was a loser way to be. I look back at that time with shame and disappointment and regret. I used to be really into /r9k/ and shit like that, I would just browse that forum and shitpost there for all hours of the day.

    If any incel is reading this, kick yourself in the ass and get to work. Get laid or don't, but it is your fault and no, you don't deserve sympathy.

  • Even if what you say is correct. Question is why are these people INCELs, what is the cause of it. That's what needs to be focused on as well. Could it be there are busy playing games, lack social skills etc.

    On the other side it was suggested 20% of men have 50-60% of sex. Again we need to ask what is about these 20% of men that they are able to have disproportionate amount sex. What distinguishes them from average person.

  • As far as I can tell there are several problems with the so-called incels:
    1. Unrealistic expectations about woman.
    2. unrealistic expectations about themselves
    3. They do nothing to change themselves.
    4. They lack the desire to change.

    • I’m not sure. I think they are just disliked generally because of their personalities. Their parents are probably different from most people, likely abused as children or something related. They live life with a constant ‘wtf’ expression.

  • Anything you decide is a personal choice for you, it's none of my business.

    • Not sure I understand this comment. I was just stating statistics on sexlessness, along with a theory some academics have come up with to account for the numbers. Male sexlessness has risen at a fast rate in the last 10 years, and appears to continue to rise, while female sexlessness has not risen. Given your age, you were in your 20’s around 14 years ago, or 2005. Back then, there was no discernible difference between male and female sexlessness. For some reason, younger people today are doing something different.

  • "not having sex recently" doesn't mean "never had sex".

  • Interesting. 😊

  • I quit reading at Chads and Stacies.

    • Did I mention Stacies? I don’t think so.

    • Read the article again, including the inserts.

  • Sexual-economism is in my opinion not a good theory of how the sexual dynamics between men and women in society work because it makes use of the long disproven sperm wars theory, a theory that claims men want to have sex with as many women as possible, while women dont want to engage in promiscuis behavior.

  • What is so bad about waiting for the right person for sex, it ridiculous that society has to be so overly sexualised that it creates shaming and stigma. I fear it will not lead to a stable society. Due to this behaviour a lot of men I've met just can't be bothered with women any more. Especially men in their 30s when it seems the majority of women this age are single mums with a load of baggage. I'd say women are certainly more picky now and can easily get sex when they want with more attractive men then themselves (online dating), whereas the other way around isn't as common. This leads to a smaller number of men using all the women, while a larger number of men left at the side. This is true in Islamic countries too where multiple wives are common, this puts pressure on average men, and is not a good way of running things. So four possible points:

    o There are more women going for a smaller percent of men. Women ultimately have the privilege of controlling the sexual market.
    o Women are becoming more overweight and thus less attractive.
    o There are more distractions to keep men occupied that give greater reward than persuing women.
    o There is a deepening divide between men and women.

  • I'm more of a mixed case. You see, I am a virgin both by choice, and not by choice. If an attractive virgin girl existed, who was also attracted to me, I wouldn't have been a virgin. But since no one like that exists, I turn down chances with any other girls that seem to take interest in me (which is super rare).
    What does that make me? An incel? Non-incel? Both?

  • I'll tell you what the problem is. All these guys not having sex did that to them selves. Go on 4chan and you see the problem. Go talk to any MAGA hat wearing dork and you'll see it.

    Physically attractive people get attention easily. That doesn't mean you can't get sex otherwise. But there is this certain group of guys (alt-right, MGTOW) that starts bitching about everything, calling every woman a slut and act like they are super human and stand above it. They talk about women like they are some lower species that doesn't have any brains and doesn't realise how stupid we are to fuck the same "chads" and don't see why we should be fucking them. The fact that you expect ridiculous things of us, think you are better and are entitled to get anything is exactly why every single girl in the world would rather fuck a "chad" than a MGTOW incel.

    • Part of the joke is that many INCEL people are actually not ugly. They simply have zero social status and no way of getting any at that moment. Many of them don’t want social status and don’t agree that it is necessary. That’s the main disagreement between them and sexually active straight females. So, rather than try and climb a corporate ladder they complain about female nature — but as far as I can tell, what they are saying is actually accurate. That is to say, they aren’t wrong about female nature — whereas some guys love female nature, these guys legitimately do not like it. Often misogyny is packaged as miss information or lack of comprehension somehow: such as, “that poor soul. He must be misguided.” But it’s actually the opposite. For many of these guys society brainwashed them into believing women were a certain way that they actually were not. Oppressed patriarchal norms made women a certain way there are not naturally; many INCEL’s, then, believed that women were naturally the way oppressive patriarchies taught they were or at least taught the way they ought to be. No surprise that male celibacy rose in 2008 onwards — exactly when feminism became accepted. The oppressive false image was removed and the true nature underneath was revealed — it is exactly this true nature that is hated and rejected by them. We can makeup all kinds of reasons they are incels, but deep down they are probably incels because they do not like women, but are sexually attracted to the female form none the less. Essentially, they are attracted to a fictional character created by patriarchal societies that does not exist. It is this friction — legitimate hatred combined with physical attraction of the female form — that leads to heavy ambivalence and confusion —> which leads to frustration, lashing out and violent attacks — not to mention, zero sexual release especially for virgins. TBC.

    • Imagine being a biologically healthy person with sexual organs functioning as normal and then being sentenced to no sex for life. Imagine never being able to release sexual energy except for via masturbation. It’s basically a prison sentence to solitary confinement.

    • Technically, nothing they say is wrong. However, they also omit truisms. They don’t have the full story. The leave out all the positives of building platonic social relations and only mention the negatives associated to effort needed to build them in the first place. They omit that even if girls are hypergamous, they are still raised differently than boys. And that, to them, male notions of sexuality are repulsive and scary. Male notions of disregarding society are repulsive and scary. And the fact that these tendencies are scary implies negative associations to people who express them. And because sex is about two people, it suddenly becomes very apparent why INCELs are INCELs. They wouldn’t even enjoy sexual acts the way they think they would if they ever acted on them in the way they imagine they should be acted on, because it would also be traumatic to them. But because they are never given opportunity they never get the experience that shows them this reality in the first place. And because things can only truly be learned via first hand experience and trial and error, they go on believing delusions that are actually false (by implication). Even though nothing they are saying is strictly false. They’ll go on and on believing what they believe, as virgins, indefinitely.

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  • So, come down crucify me guys here, because I'm incel scum. And this is what I think is at the philosophical root of it: you can only take conscious, personally accountable charge of what you control (and we do, for much your personal butthurt prefers to cherrypick and indulge your confirmation bias), but that doesn't mean denying or covering your eyes when there are external, systemic and natural hierarchies (either biological or cultural) rigging the outcomes. I think regardless of whether those hierarchies are inevitable or not, forcing your liberal meritocratic sense of personal responsibility will only further reproduce ingrained inequities.

    Perhaps some folks could drop their condescending focus on empathizing with "flawed" worldviews but taking a look at objective, external realities (measured like the data you present here) to individuals that yet affect them.

  • Most of them are a threat to themselves, especially since women are notoriously cruel towards men who suffer with depression and body dysmorphia

    • You know, I used to think it was body dysmorphia — but I’m now pretty sure it isn’t. We can move past looks related insecurities eventually. Especially as we get older. Incel’s persist beyond this. I am becoming sure it has everything to do with sociability. I don’t know why, but it seems like being social is somehow a prerequisite to dating for many people. Like, minding your own business isn’t good enough somehow? I don’t really understand it fully. But it’s definitely related.

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