Craziness on Campus: If She Was Drunk, She Gets To Decide If She Was Sexually Assaulted

Craziness on Campus:  If She Was Drunk, She Gets To Decide If She Was Sexually Assaulted

Let me state unequivocally from the outset: Sexual assault and rape are horrific, violent crimes. The victims of those crimes have to endure great pain and suffering, oftentimes lasting years beyond the date of the crime. The perpetrators of these crimes should be charged and prosecuted to the full extent of the law, and if convicted, punished by lenghty prison terms. Surely everyone of good faith can agree on that.

But what is occuring right now, especially on college campuses, with regards to issues of sexual "consent" is the ridiculous product of Political Correctness run amok. I've included here an article from The American Conservative that deals with one recent story that happened at Occidental College. My own view is that incidents such as the one described here are far more prevalent than true violent sexual crimes on college campuses, and that the hysteria over "rape culture" has led to an abandonment of anything resembling due process for those men like "John" in the story below.

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Too Drunk to Have Sex?
By Rod Dreher • February 12, 2015, 9:28 AM
The American Conservative
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John and Jane (not their real names) were students at Occidental College. They both got blitzed one night, and had sex. According to this Slate account, witnesses to the pre-game festivities observed both of them, drunk as hell, fooling around; Jane was the sexual aggressor, all agreed. Friends took Jane back to her room, but after they left, she sneaked back into John’s room, after asking him via text if he had a condom. As the two were getting busy with it, another student knocked on the door and asked three times if Jane was okay; three times, Jane said yes. Another student, one who had been trained in sexual violence awareness, opened the door, saw them having sex, and was satisfied that this was consensual.

But then [as reported in Slate magazine]:

"Occidental College disagreed. The morning after the incident, both Jane and John said they didn’t remember what happened the night before and set about recreating the evening’s events by speaking with friends who witnessed them having sex, reviewing text messages they had sent to each other, and piecing together the physical clues. John awoke to find a used condom and Jane’s earrings in his room; Jane learned that after having sex with John, she had ventured out again to find another man to cuddle with. The facts of what happened that evening are not in dispute. But, a week after the incident, Jane filed a complaint against John with the school. John was ultimately found in violation of Occidental’s sexual misconduct policy, which forbids students from having sexual contact with anyone who is “incapacitated” by drugs or alcohol. John was expelled, the harshest possible punishment for students found responsible for sexual assault on campus. Then, he filed suit against Occidental, alleging that the school unfairly applied its sexual misconduct policy based on gender. (The suit refers to the students as just John Doe and Jane Doe, to preserve their anonymity.) As the lawsuit puts it: 'John is being expelled because he is male; Jane Doe is not because she is female.'"

Note that the facts of the case are not in dispute. Given that set of facts — both incapacitated by drunkenness — what kind of justice faults the man here?

More [from the account in Slate magazine]:

"But in cases like the Occidental one, where both parties are going through the motions and saying the words of enthusiastically consenting to sex, the incapacitation standard presents a legitimate paradox: Once she filed a report, Jane’s incapacitation became the sole evidence that she had been victimized, and yet John’s incapacitation could not be used as a defense. According to Occidental’s sexual misconduct standard, Jane was too drunk to consent to sex because she lacked “awareness of consequences,” the “ability to make informed judgments,” and the “capacity to appreciate the nature and the quality of the act.” Meanwhile, John was held responsible because he “knew or should have known” Jane was incapacitated—a calculation that’s based on what a sober person would have known in his circumstances.

In order to resolve those contradictions, some people are comfortable assuming that the man is at fault."

Heads the drunk woman wins, tails the drunk man loses. This is completely unjust, and yet another reason why campus officials have no business determining guilt or innocence in these cases. This empowers the female partner to charge her male partner with rape if, after the encounter, she wishes she hadn’t done it — even if he was as drunk as she was.

So what we’ve come around to is a 21st century, legalistic, feminist view that a man must always be expected to behave like a Victorian gentleman, while the woman can behave exactly as she pleases, and destroy his college career by a mere accusation. Because he is a man and she is a woman, and as Cheryl Abbate has told us, women cannot be sexist because they do not have power (“Being sexist entails that one has institutional power over another group. Since women do not have institutional power over men, by definition, they cannot be sexist toward men.”)

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Most Helpful Girl

  • Ridiculous. I had sex in college numerous times while drunk (or high) and never considered it anything but consensual sex.

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  • This particular double standard drives me crazy. It seems so blatantly wrong to use drunkenness as an excuse for women, then turn around and tell men they should have known better. It's massively unfair to guys, and in a way, it's actually pretty condescending toward girls. Like, when I see a guy get held accountable and the girl gets a free pass, I'm hearing, "John can be blamed because, despite the obvious effects of inebriation, he has a penis and therefore his consent can't be called into question. Jane is just too female to know better."

    So I'd argue that this isn't feminism (or isn't what feminism should be), but it is definitely way more unfair to guys. :(

  • It's too bad that people forsake proper courting and go straight to sex. Of course she is likely to regret it. Taking such a banal and pedantic step as to report it as rape is the result of a childish, selfish, regretful mind- don't have sex in the first place, or get drunk around people you know will probably try and lay you, and you won't have this problem.

    The same goes for guys- date her in celibacy, learn to love her, to know her- then marry her. Casual sex is fraught with dangers and pitfalls. There is no free lunch in love or life. Everything must be earned.

  • I didn't research this story myself yet, but from what you wrote here:

    It's fekin WRONG.

    Why should the guy get expelled, if BOTH of them were having drunk sex? They both disobeyed policy, so they should both be punished.
    You are absolutely right, they ARE punishing him just because he's a guy and what's worse: NOBODY SUFFERED FROM THE INCIDENT, yet the girl fucked him over afterwards.

    And I can tell you the exact reason why she did it too: because she didn't want everyone to think she's a slut. It's a lot better for her reputation, if people thought she was taken, rather than boinked nasties while hammered.

    What a fucking cunt.

  • First off I don't like you throwing around the term feminist so loosely because I'm a feminist and agree the punishment was wrong.
    If your both two intoxicated people neither of you are sure of your actions meaning neither of you are guilty.
    I can understand why Jane filled though, she woke up not being able to remember so when she connected the dots (without all the details), she probably genuinely thought she was raped. But the school should have followed up and shown he was also under the influence so neither of them are punishable.

    • Well, you're not a college professor teaching a course on feminism/women's studies. Because these are the people who usually make up these rules. Maybe you don't know what a feminist really is... because again... they're freaking professors of it People are actually being taught things like this in US colleges

    • @M_A_X I think the idea that there's only one type of feminist is idiotic. That's like saying every civil rights supporter is just an angry black guy who will kill anyone to get black dominance. Now doesn't that sound stupid to you, well it does. Just like all people who believe in civil rights are white hating black guys, not very feminist is a man hair lesbian

    • Okay then, why bother to call yourself a feminist if it doesn't mean anything and people are going to assume you're the other kind anyway? Why not just tell people "I believe in equality" and leave it at that?

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  • If she was not aware of the consequences of the act why would she ask if he had a condom? That's what a responsible person, aware of consequences would do.
    This reminds me of another alleged rape. It was contrived by a writer for Rolling Stone who got all the content for the story from an anonymous accuser. In this case there were multiple sources as well as an eye witness to the act that seem to have been discounted but the outcome is the same. In the case of the Rolling Stone article; the fraternity was punished for consisting of males and it was absent of consideration of defendant testimony.

    This kind of policy promotes desensitization towards incidents of rape, which is the opposite of its original goal. The more stories like these that come to light, the less credibility victims will have. Maybe the guys need to keep breathylizers and conduct field sobriety tests with witness affidavits on file. Of course, they could just refuse to have sex if she's been drinking but that's more unlikely than innocent until proven guilty.

  • what a dumb policy. The college shouldn't have a right to tell you when you can and can't have sex.

  • In regards to rape, a woman who is drunk can not give consent. Period.

    • But a drunk man can?

  • That's why you don't have sex and even date American Women in college if you want to go that far. They can ruin your life. It's just not worth it.

  • As a feminist, I think that, if both parties were under the influence in any way, shape, or form, the person who initiated sex should be punished. However, if it was consensual on both ends, I don't feel the punishment should be as harsh as it would be if it was nonconsensual.

    • What if the initiation was a mutual thing (not specific person who initiated)? Did they rape each other, then?

    • @TheSpartan If both parties involved gave consent, and remember giving consent, then it's perfectly fine.

    • "If both parties involved gave consent, and remember giving consent..." If one of them forgets does the other deserves to be punished because of the poor memory of the first?

  • Thats why i never go home with girls if i notice they are properly wasted
    Plus i hate drunk sex...
    i do think sometimes men get wrongly accused, but often times women get take advantage of... Its a difficult situation that often favors women

    I stopped getting too drunk when i go out its not worth it...

  • It would be both of their faults.. Neither one could remember what happened that night so how would there be any legal standing... Any evidence would be hersay they both didn't remember...

    • There's physical evidence they had sex, and were both drunk. So he's expelled.

    • @kheserthorpe he shouldn't have gotten expelled if both of them didn't that's messed up... She's the one who left again when already home and then text him if he had a condom then snuck out... Then proceeded to have sex both are at fault not just the guy. .. She should take responsibility too

    • It doesn't matter what she did in today's liberal college climate. The guy is always at fault. It's just the way it is.

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  • if that was their policy then both should have been expelled? Equality of the sexes is a joke when people approach it from the completely wrong angle... its like using a tsunami to counteract a volcanic eruption, nobody wins except the feminazis.

  • This is very powerful. The extreme sophistication now being forced onto men, liberating women to do whatever, is not the balance we should aim for.

  • Theoretically, if something like this happened to two gay guys or gals, they'd have no clue who to stick the fault on. This is just more evidence that college faculty have no idea how to properly deal with sexual assault in the face of mounting pressure to appear "progressive."

    You can't hold a blind person to the same standards as you can a sighted person when examining witness testimony. The same could easily be said of drunken incapacitation. When you are drunk, your perceptions become impaired and it is legitimately impossible to determine whether or not the "consent" given was legal or not. It is not impossible to forget that, say, forcing yourself on top of someone while intoxicated isn't immoral since if this weren't the case, you'd have grounds for an insanity defense.

    (as a side note, I am not a legal expert)

    And likewise, the problem with these sorts of "feminists" like you mentioned is their tendency to make blanket generalizations about society at large and deliberately ignore nuances in individual motivations and specific situations.

  • I was on board until the final paragraph. You can't extrapolate narrow institutional policies into condemnations of a broad school of study. These policies are probably designed more as a "cover your ass" policy.

    These consent policies are totally heavy handed and catch too many people in too wide a net, and they definitely need to be more nuanced in their approach, but they're attempting to address a very real cultural crisis on American campuses. The American college drinking culture is rife with sexual assault, and there are clear examples of it with male students (often but not always Frat boys) disseminating guides to other male students on how to isolate girls from their friends and to deliberately ply them with alcohol until they're too drunk to resist.

    Here's an example, and these are why administrators are so aggressively going after drunk sex.

    i.kinja-img.com/.../19ez8qq2w5hxqjpg.jpg

  • That is fucked up. I believe in feminism but this is just taking the piss. Both Jane and John should be charged with rape and expelled, if anything.

  • Articles like this just make me want to give society a collective slap across the face with a brick-filled sock. Society has essentially caved into the rape war-cry of a bunch of loud-mouth feminists. Innocent guys are crucified at the whim of some fuck-up woman who has regrets about not keeping her legs closed and those who bring up this injustice can easily be spun by hardcore feminists to be rape-supporters. No one wins here.

    Society just needs to get some balls and do the right thing, image be damned.

  • People just need to take some damn accountability man. Shit just be accountable for your fucking actions. Stop trying to get away with shit because you regret it.

    • Exactly!!! She should have owned up to her mistake... Don't claim rape when it wasn't she was the one asking him if he had condoms then snuck out...

  • Thays bullshit, i agree. Thats soooo sexist and is gender discrimination. I too would have filed a lawsuit. Like wtf? Both parties are drunk, so no one is really at fault. Do you know if the guy won the case?

    • No, I don't know anything about the guy's lawsuit.

  • "Why isn't he more direct?" -susie
    "He doesn't want a rape charge :D #Swerve" -johnny

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