Has feminism made attempting to talk to/date a woman harder for men?

[Anonymous]

First disclamer: I mean post-modern feminism, not 1960's-70's feminism. Second disclamer: I'm NOT posting this to HATE or belittle womens rights or equality so PLEASE I ask that you do the same and respect others opinions. I hope we can have a meaningful DISCUSSION about this and not an argument about how stupid someone or one side or whatever is. I ask this question because I as a male sometimes feel as though men in general have to walk through a minefield when talking to women, at least initially. Thats not to say I don't feel confident in my ability to talk to women or ask them out. As a man even though I know I am a good person and I know I'm not some horrible monster, I feel as if men are far far too often demonized by feminism and its inaccurate statistics about rape and such. Maybe this is just me but when I walk around the store I work in, I honestly get a little worried that if I happen to accidently bump into a woman the wrong way while trying to ween my way through customers, she could claim I touched her innapropriately and get me fired with little to no chance of being able to defend myself. IDKY but I feel like this carries over to initiating a conversation with a girl you find attractive, that they could see it as, why is this stranger talking to me? is he going to rape me? kinda deal. NOW that being said I don't know what women think lol. I just feel like I can't be the only one who has this feeling. I mean I'm sure I'm probably not even explaining this correctly and some people will take it the wrong way. what I'm trying to get at is, has feminism demonized men to the point where it has made it more difficult for guys to initiate conversation with a girl they find as a potential mate? (err I think thats what I'm getting at). I mean just take a second and really really think about it, the way the media seems to demonize men, men do this and that and this bad thing, has male shaming gone too far? (more to come in an update).

[BelfastBoy]

Unquestionably it does. I see a lot of men making excuses when they ask a question like this and a lot of women totally ignorant of the history and practises of feminism. Erin Pizzey, the woman who started the first women#s shelter in chisick UK has labelled it "an evil empire". It is a victim industry which at best allows women to benefit from legal protections no man is privy to, at any time in her life. It undermines trust between men and women and extends into government, medicine and the media. I know to many that sounds melodramatic however I#ve studied the subject from both perspectives for years now as a human rights advocate and I can say unequivically that there is no "patriarchy" and that women in general try to defend the actions of their entire sex, whereas men do not. Examples of this include no concern for male rape in prisons, no concern for excessive male homelessness, suicide, workplace deaths nor violence towards men, which is excessively high in every country except Japan. To say that "Only radical feminists are like that" is a falsity because while "Not all women are like that - NAWALT" does nothing to resolve laws which take away a man#s children, home and future in divorce and family courts. Other examples of sexual bias include that in 1985 the incidence of false rape reporting in the UK - according to the police - was 45%, until the home office refused the police to report on any incident where the woman did not explicity admit to lying, which is the same as saying you can only arrest a rapist who admits they did it. The myth that women only earn 77 cents in the dollar has also been repeatedly disproven, as has the myth of domestic violence not being at best equal between men and women. All of this affects my own personal attitude towards women, howvever telling a woman this more often than not results in a man being attacked by groups of women claiming that he is a misogynist, has mommy issues, is scared of her success, is a loser, or does not want to "committ". It is the reason I never want to marry - I've had too many friends whose lives have been destroyed watching another man raise their kids in the house they paid for while they pay 18 years of child support and can never afford another family of their own. Feminism is not about womens rights, it is a victim industry designed to keep men and women apart and has been so right from its inception. Just youtube "Erin Pizzey" and listen to what she has to say and her life story.

[Anonymous]

Yes it has made it much more difficult. Guys get a lot of bad and often conflicting advice, in out attempt to make a guy hitting on a woman less offensive.

No matter what a guy does, there is a different type of feminist with different ideas about how a man should behave and will take issue with anything men do. If we ask a girl out we just met then we can be called shallow for not getting to know her first, and if we try to get to know her and then ask her out we are accused of pretending to be her friend to trick her into bed. This makes it far too easy to offend modern women.

Personally I think it is best to be blunt and just ask the girl out right away. If she has a problem with it, then she isn't worth having in my life anyway. The women that aren't sexist won't be offended even if they turn the guy down. Then we need to stop pretending like the women that get offended by guys asking them out or even saying hello are being harassed, and instead hold them accountable for being the sexist pieces of crap that they are.

There is a lot of different types of feminists and some think any approach outside of a place designed for meeting people such as a bar or club is harassment. Then there are feminists that think if the woman has drank ANY alcohol that hooking up with her is a crime. Which of course if you are meeting women in a bar or club she will have drank something already. This means no matter what we do, that someone has a problem with it. Heck, they are even calling staring at a girl physiological rape now.

Every single aspect of male sexuality is being demonized. Small wonder why there are so many anti feminist guys right now, since even the "real feminists" are nowhere to be seen when guys are being treated like perverts for our natural sexuality. They have made it clear that modern day feminism isn't about equality. Instead they complain about slut shaming in one sentence, then pervert shame a man in the next. Dating won't get any easier for guys until men are allowed to ask women out, without being treated like he is violating her space.

[CheeseFreak]

Modern feminism is defacing the real feminism. Stuck up, jealous, hateful, bitter, lonely. etc woman are using feminism as an excuse to get the upper hand against men and other women they are envious or hateful of. They want to use what they can against men if something happens like claiming that he tried to come onto her or touch her and she knows people will take her part because she is a woman. (e. g. Chris Brown hitting Rihanna was a big deal to everyone and they felt bad for her and said Chris wasn't a man. But when Solange hit Jay-Z in the elevator, everyone just laughed. This is clearly about gender). Or they have been hurt in the past by a man so they have trust issues so they claim all men are lying pigs. Or they are jealous of another woman who men find attractive and they are insecure about themselves so they tent to go around calling a girl who gets more attention a slut or something. I understand in situations where a man comes on too strong and it might send out the wrong message, but for her to blame all men and call them all sexist because she couldn't tell one man to back off a bit isn't right. Men shouldn't be demonised from trying to have a conversation with a woman because women flirt with men as well. Just because a man is trying to talk to you doesn't necessarily mean he is after something and so are all men. Like I said, women with insecurities or some other reason to be hateful towards men and some other women have made it seem like all men are just pigs who belittle us. The true feminism lies in equality between the two genders. I practice the real, equal feminism. I have a father and brothers. There is no reason for me to hate on men. To make new life, we need both a man and a woman. We cannot survive without each other.
I hope this helped give you some insight about fake and real feminism :)

[lonerider]

Give this woman a greek Island.. *insert putin pic here*

[CheeseFreak]

Hehe why?

[PhoenixItalian]

That was very well written and seemed genuine, I hope you are influential in your community

[CheeseFreak]

Thank you. It's genuine because as much as men try to go against feminism and women try to justify it, this it the truth about what it really is and what they have turned it into. I try to be. Try to do my own thing. Problem is girls here and most girls everywhere want to chase men that don't deserve them, trade self respect for sex and act viciously towards other girls. I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I try to stay away from that. Even if you tell them, it doesn't go through to them because materialistic things have become more important to them. They choose male attention, having the upper hand against other girls and material possessions over self respect, sisterly bonds and their own dreams and passions. All fingers crossed that I can inspire girls and boys everywhere. Got big dreams 😊✌

[Asker]

how do you feel about some of the comments above? (or the newer opinions)? I'd love to hear your thoughts on them...:)

[CheeseFreak]

I think you're asking me that to read and respond for you :p lazy xD Nah jk. Well I'll make a general summarized comment rather than go through each individually as that would take forever. Some girls are calling your a creep/asshole and saying you should get cancelling or there is something wrong with you for approaching a woman talking to her. They believe it's harassment and make you sound like a creep who was staring at the woman's chest before approaching her. This is incorrect. I don't remember you saying anything in your question about you gawking at her body parts from a distance before talking to her. As I said going to make conversation with a girl is perfectly normal. It's the process of meeting someone new to decide whether you want to talk more so you can exchange numbers and after keeping contact you decide if you want to see them again and start dating. It's perfectly normal even if it's the other way round and she is the one to approach you. This is a normal process.

[Asker]

lol no I wasn't asking that :P but thank you very much for your thoughts! :)

[CheeseFreak]

I think the girls saying those things feel easily violated if a man compliments or hits on them. Maybe they've been hit on by unattractive men a lot. That's always a factor. If the guy was good looking and they weren't used to it, I'm sure they'd be up his ass and let him string them along xD As for the other girls, they mostly agree that some women go overboard with feminism such as one opinion said that you can't just yell harassment if a man accidentally bumps into you since the scale of 'accidentally' touching a strange girl is rare because men have become more open these days and can just hit on her and grab her ass. etc. Those that yell harassment for nothing. the types I mentioned before that defend feminism with such biased excuses (the ones calling you creep/saying you need cancelling). There are other girls who said no, unless you're using those cheap pickup lines that are used on typical females to hit on them in a pigish way. That has nothing to do with feminism.

[CheeseFreak]

It depends on the guy and how he flirts and sees women and hoe the girl responds to such, If she falls for the usual crap or not. Some girls bare right in their opinions to speak about equality and not hating men as you can be a feminist and still date/marry a man. Sorry for such a long analysis :p I tried to just tackle the main opinions I saw as interesting ones to comment on. I hope I helped :)

[Asker]

don't be sorry at all, I appreciate your analysis :)

[CheeseFreak]

*you *counselling *are damn my fucking typos --'

[Asker]

lol ehh don't worry about it :P

[CheeseFreak]

Thanks for not even reading all that jerk -_- :p

[Asker]

I did read all of it though.

[CheeseFreak]

What did you think?

[Asker]

I think it was very informative :). I just want to know why those girls went on the attack... I tried not to make my question about hating feminism or something like that, because I've seen so many questions hating on feminism on here, I was just trying to give a guy (and maybe some guys) perspective on the question I asked. =/

[CheeseFreak]

I understand what you mean and why they would hate it considering why it's been turned into. I hope i answered you as to why they did and I hope my opinions can give them some proper insight on the truth and they don't buy into the other hateful responses and hate on feminism even more.

[GirlsLie]

I think males are shamed just as much as women are shamed and it's all equally as stupid.

The thing is though, women do need to be careful, actually everyone does when it comes to meeting new people but especially women, your personal safety is far more important than offending someone. I don't go around thinking all men are bad but I think a lot of people are bad in general and I always keep my eyes open to people like that. And that's not because of feminism and it's not because we all hate men and think they're all rapist. It's because it's how the world is right now. And you would be a naive fool to think otherwise.

And I also think you're being a little paranoid, as far as bumping into someone and them freaking out, that could happen but that's probably because the woman is a wack job drama queen, it doesn't necessarily mean she's a feminist or feminist influenced, she could just be crazy as fuck lol

The definition of feminism is not man hating and overreacting towards men lol. I'm not sure why it's so difficult for so many people to differentiate feminism with extremist.

Also as far as rape stats being accurate, you do realize that feminism doesn't only refer to western culture, right? and rapes are very common and very accepted in other places of the world and there's often no point in even reporting them in those places, it's very out of hand, so is genital manipulation, forced arrange marriages etc. My point is it's an issue for women around the world and it should be treated as such, not just as a way to make men look bad, men should be equally as concerned about it as well, especially if they have women in their lives that they love.

[Asker]

when I ask this question, I'm not attacking you or anything like that, just asking an honest question in the hopes to get an answer and spur discussion. When it comes to the whole rape statistic, IF that is true, what you are saying is feminism in the west uses rape statistics from other countries where that statistic would actually be true, to push the idea that 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 or whatever it is number of women is raped over in the west (particularly america)? I mean I never hear those statistics refer to women in india, or Afghanistan or china, it's always women on college campuses in the US or such.. and if feminism were REALLY... REALLY serious about seeing those numbers drop, why aren't the major feminist programs doing anything to help those women in countries where they truly need the help, like india, china etc etc can you point me to some honest transparent feminist organizations that are doing so (and dont focus on women in america) please by all means let me know.

[Asker]

also thank you for your answer, I appreciate it :)

[GirlsLie]

It's ok to ask me questions lol i'm not offended by your question, I don't think it was an offensive question to begin with. I'm also not arguing the rape stats or the accuracy of them, i'm arguing that rape is still very present in the real world and especially present in other countries where women have no rights and it's commonly accepted. I don't think it should be used to bash all men by any means but women do need to be careful and you can't really hold that against us or treat it like it's offensive for us to have our guards up at first when most people should. And I completely agree with you, those groups should be focusing more on other countries but it doesn't change the fact that rape still goes on everywhere. I also don't follow feminist groups, i'm not active in one and I probably never will be, because the majority of them are extremist who do bash men and make very unnecessary comments towards men and I would never support that.

[GirlsLie]

The thing is, people get extremist and feminist confused and extremist are giving feminism a bad name and the definition of feminism in itself isn't a bad thing and you can't generalize everyone.

[Asker]

oh absolutely, women (and men) are raped everywhere in the world, and one rape no matter male or female is one too many. unfortunately as long as humanity is around rape will be a thing (heck I think some animals other than humans rape as well). I just don't like how feminism perpetuates the whole rape statistics thing even when it isn't true. if it were true I'd have no issue with it but its not, the real studies and stats show otherwise. And yes women should have their guard up I agree, but not to the point where it makes them paranoid (as it has some women). err thats not to say all women are paranoid, there is nothing wrong with caution. I'm not trying to treat it as something that offends me or anything, because it doesn't I promise. I just kinda wish people would see the effects that rape stats and such have had on men etc etc. Also I'm very happy to hear you wouldn't support something extreme like some of those women do :)

[GirlsLie]

I agree, I wish extremist would realize how bad they are portraying men sometimes. But regardless of the rape stats and the accuracy of them, I still think it's an issue and it needs to have awareness, they may be going about it the wrong way though. I also haven't really experienced too many women being very standoffish of men based on those stats and how they're being used, honestly most of the women I know aren't careful enough in my opinion lol

[Asker]

I agree, it certainly should be addressed, but it should be addressed for BOTH sides. no one ever talks about the rampant raping that goes on in male prisons etc etc... when it concerns rape its about women, and as a man that frustrates me ya know? rape is bad one way or another and it should be dealt with as a whole, not just for one gender. (its nice to talk to a level headed person about this without it erupting in anger fueled debate).

[GirlsLie]

That's a really good point also, I never thought of that actually. I mean think about how many men are raped/molested and by their own family members as well and it's only addressed as a man vs woman type situation. lol I really like talking to open minded people, who have legitimate questions and concerns and an open mind, not just an anti feminist ranter.

[Asker]

and thats not even adding the fact that men/boys have really no one to turn to in order to get help for a rape/molestation/sexual assult. little boys MAY have more options because they are children, but as far as grown men are concerned nope. I mean I've even heard of cases where if a man tries to report being raped to police or tries to get help at a err rape shelter (?) he's laughed at and told to grow a pair and accept you had sex... how is that fair? also I agree :) I mean I'm trying not to come off as anti-feminist but I'm not a feminist honestly I'm an egalitarian, and from what I've seen I don't agree with what a lot of the heads of feminism are trying to accomplish. I mean for crying out loud, spending tax payers money in new york for an advertisment about MANSPREADING? wth. that NEVER bothered anyone before, and the fact that that can even be an issue is absurd. I've seen plenty of women take up seats with their huge bags and such and no one complains about that...

[Asker]

a man taking up practically his waistline in space with his legs isn't hurting anyone. just the issues that get brought up sometimes are absurd. there are much much more pressing matters at hand than issues like manspreading. err sorry didn't mean to go on a bit of a rant there lol.

[GirlsLie]

lol I understand, those things are ridiculous to me as well. I would feel ashamed as a person with all of the bigger issues in the world to take up time with dumb shit like that. I just don't understand people and I probably never will lol

[Asker]

lol with the profession I'm going into, I'm going to TRY to understand people and spend the rest of my life doing so lol.

[GirlsLie]

What are you doing?

[Asker]

clinical psychology :P

[GirlsLie]

Ooh, nice. I've always found that fascinating, as well as mental disorders. I love reading real crime and serial killer books and seeing how they diagnose people and why. I don't always agree with it but it's definitely eye opening and interesting lol

[Asker]

lol oh believe me I have my reasons as to why I'm going into the field :P

[GirlsLie]

lol, why, now i'm interested

[Asker]

lol well I like to know what makes people tick, I like to know why people do and think the way they do, what their experiences through life have been and how that has made them the person they are and could potentially be. I like to talk with people, and I like to help people, so why not put them both together? :)

[Asker]

also I've followed you, just wanted to say that :). and well I've tried to message you but it won't let me =/ BUT thats okay lol.

[GirlsLie]

Exactly, that's awesome. I've always found it interesting as well, I just tend to disagree with some of the actual definition that are placed on people with some mental disorders, like sociopaths, psychopaths, narcissist etc. I've always been curious why and how they come to the conclusion that all of most of them have the same traits and symptoms because I don't think it applies to everyone of them.

[GirlsLie]

I think I just followed the right person back hopefully, I had it turned off because of some of the weirdos on this site lol

[Asker]

Well thats why in the DSM they have criteria that people must meet (usually its like 5 out of 7 etc ect). they tend to be criteria that they've found tend to be common between people who have said disorders and such.

[Esplorare]

I completely agree with you.
It's really important to understand that your average modern day "feminist" doesn't truly possess the emotional intelligence, refined effectiveness, and communication skills to be a real feminist. Real feminists are for the EQUALITY OF BOTH GENDERS, not for the complete and utter bashing, degradation, and dedignification of men. Your average aggressive, combative, hostile "feminist" is really just a poser. There are many women who don't even like having certain types of dialogues with these posers who call themselves feminists because they have no clue how to have a productive dialogue rather than barking at others. These feminist-posers tend to be completely self-focused and lack empathy or understanding for the male perspective and experience, only wanting to voice their thoughts, their feelings, their desires, their concerns, them , them, THEM! -_-

It's actually pretty interesting when you really pause and explore modern feminism. For example, I lose count of how many feminists, who are all for "equal rights and changing double standards", are outraged when a female is raped by one man at a frat party. Yet have nothing to say, no protests, no political message to send when INNOCENT MEN go to jail and are GANG-RAPED FOR YEARS by other men. I especially found it fascinating when all these feminists had nothing to say about that young black girl being assaulted by a grown man. Like I said: Posers.

[Asker]

THIS... THIS is what I was hoping to hear from at least ONE female. THANK YOU so very much. can I ask you an honest question? if you want equality for both genders, why not call ones self with egalitarian? I mean it wouldn't take anything away from your stance and it would distance yourself from "those" feminist. I mean those types of feminist seem to have the loudest voice and most control over policies being made and such. I mean don't get me wrong feminism was I feel once a word to be proud of, but now seeing how A LOT of feminist (not all) act... if I were a woman I don't know.. I feel like I'd want to distance myself from that.. err I hope. once again, just asking an honest question, hoping to spur discussion.

[Asker]

errrr sorry if that sounded like bashing, I wasn't trying to bash to be honest.

[Esplorare]

Lol, you're welcome :)

[Esplorare]

Honestly, I'm too busy making money and following my passions to commit my time towards being egalitarian. I carry an egalitarian view but as far as it comes to devoting my daily or even weekly time towards sitting in front of a screen and preaching, e-warrioring, and arguing to enforce that view? Nah. Lol I'd rather balance my free time in other ways. Yes, there is a group of women and I who distance ourselves from feminists who act that way because to be quite frank: they're a pain in the ass. They abuse and/or misuse the concept of feminism for their own self-centered desires and passions. Not everyone has what it takes to be a feminist. Period. Just like not everyone has what it takes to be a president, a topnotch speech giver, or an Olympic champion: Not every female who's passionate about women's rights truly has the developed, cohesive skill to execute such a multi-layered mission

[Esplorare]

So many females just want to run around and act like it but it's like watching a shark try to be a jellyfish. And lets be honest, most of these females aren't accomplishing anything besides endlessly barking on the internet.

[Asker]

so you do consider yourself feminist thought correct? (jc is all). and you have a very good point... jc when did you come to all of this realization and what made you realize it?

[Esplorare]

meh, I don't like labels. I just strive to be a good human being and promote equality.

[Esplorare]

Thanks, I came to this realization within the past year or so. It started with simply observing conversations between these feminist-posers and seeing how ineffective and weak their ability to leave a positive long-term impression that will actually marinate rather than being spit out immediately. Then it really solidified when serious, important, impactful social issues would come out and these loud-mouthed "feminists" were mute.

[Asker]

AHH okay that explains a lot and that is perfectly okay! :) hmmm okay, jc how would you go about changing peoples minds about this or is this something you feel that people can't get past until they have a similar experience?

[Esplorare]

I don't really feel like it's my place to change people's minds. I don't feel like that's my responsibility. Besides, it's usually pointless if they're too immature, prideful, and/or small-minded to even receive what I have to say.

[Esplorare]

I think it's just best to honor people where they are mentally on their timeline and let them figure it out for themselves as their journey unfolds.

[Asker]

while thats very true, I mean if someone doesn't try and change things, they just stay at status quo if not get worse. I mean by no means do I expect anyone to go out of their way and/or sit on the internet all day calling people out and trying to change their minds... but some sort of action has to be done right?

[AllThatSweetJazz]

It's so very reassuring to find females who get it. Thank you.

[Esplorare]

I see what you mean but realistically... what action is there that I can do that will truly be effective considering that these feminist-posers are strangers? If they do not respect, admire, or value my presence in their life then the odds are they will have a combative viewpoint towards what I have to say. And to be quite honest, the idea of sitting in front of a screen, watching someone bark like a rabid bitch who's foaming at the mouth, and desperately trying to talk some sense into them, while not getting paid $70 per hour like a therapist sounds unbearably tiring and unproductive to me. If I'm feeling enthusiastic, I'll give it one try and if their vibe/tone is all messed up then I'm done. Life is too short to be wasting it on actions that don't resonate with people online.

[Esplorare]

The action needs to start WITH THEM. Best thing you, me, or anyone else can do is point it out once (walking on eggshells so Cujo doesn't go on attack mode :P ) or maybe show them a video to prove a point but if that attempt doesn't work then they're just not ready to evolve mentally. Whatevs. Lol yeah, I've seen several females like me floating around on Youtube and expressing the same thing. Those feminist-posers fool no one but themselves lol There are feminists who are true troopers and legitimately fight for equality then there are bootleg feminists who act a damn fool and pretty much only fight for instances that support their agenda.

[Asker]

thats true. sorry if I've annoyed you with any of my questions, I'm just trying to build more of an understanding behind your thoughts.

[Esplorare]

lol, you're fine :) Not annoying me at all

[Mesonfielde]

""meh, I don't like labels. I just strive to be a good human being and promote equality."" Respect +1000

[Esplorare]

thanks @mesonfielde

[Ozanne]

I don't think feminism has had any more affect on men when it comes to dating than it did when we lived in caves. Men have forever found it nerve-wracking to approach a woman and try and do the right thing before and after feminism even started.

I don't care if it was two thousand years ago and a Chinese rice-paddy farmer fell in love with a peasant girl, or if it was a hundred years ago and a farm-hand fell in love with the master-keeper's daughter. Men approaching women and trying to impress has been an age-old charming issue that has existed throughout the ages. Today, with the hub-bub of feminism, it's just one more hurdle that men jump over to find out if the woman they are courting will find them attractive to reciprocate their efforts and start a relationship.

[miramiraonthewall]

I'm a feminist, and I can't think of any real way that feminism makes it difficult to talk to or date women. How would that work out?

Some women may not be comfortable having random strangers who know nothing about them trying to talk to them. Feminism didn't create that. feminism tells women that they aren't being "oversensitive" and that, yeah, it's okay to not want to be approached by rando over there staring at your tits. In that sense, maybe you're right.

I've never "accidentally bumped into someone" in a way that would even suggest inappropriate touching, even if I were a guy. That seems like something that would be incredibly rare in one's own life. I don't think most guys I know find themselves "accidentally touching" women in ways that would be inappropriate. And how would that have to do with dating? (You mentioned "customers"?) I'm really confused. You shouldn't be touching your date in an inappropriate way at all.

To be honest, you sound like you have major issues if awareness about rape and rape culture threaten your dating prospects. Thats alarming on a few levels, and I kind of want to suggest that you seek counseling to work through your feelings and what you think is "okay behavior" that is somehow threatened by feminists talking about rape.

[PhoenixItalian]

Did you just misinterpret his post so you could tell him he has issues and should seek counseling? The fact that feminists think stare rape is a thing makes me believe he is in his total right mind to feel intimidated by the potential false accusations of women when he's just trying to do his job. You're perpetuating exactly what he's talking about referring to people as random strangers who know nothing about you and staring at your tits? Men have historically found a woman attractive, talked to her, and if she liked him they consider a relationship. I think you're demonizing men as many feminists are stereotyped of doing and you seem to be filling that stereotype. I wouldn't have said anything but telling him to get counseling because you assume he differs in opinion from you about the existence of a rape culture was uncalled for.

[miramiraonthewall]

@PhoenixItalian I responded with my opinion, like everyone else. If you don't agree with my opinion, I can't really do anything about that. You can think whatever you want, and let that guide your life in whatever direction you please. This is your decision. You seem to be trying to invalidate the feelings that many (certainly not all) women have. If a woman doesn't want to respond positively to a complete stranger asking her out, or a stranger staring at her like a piece of meat, she doesn't fucking have to. I give zero fucks about "what has been done historically" in this situation. First of all, thats a horrible premise to base your argument on, seeing as plenty of things "have been done historically" that you (hopefully) don't agree with.

[miramiraonthewall]

Secondly, there's no exclusive historical reality of the nature of relationships. Families have orchestrated marriages between people who barely know one another in some times/cultures. Likewise, history has also included people who actually know each other building substantial relationships, friendships, and then moving forward to the sexual/dating phase. And to the main point, none of that matters. If a woman doesn’t want to receive certain attention from strangers (or anyone) she has every right to her own feelings, period.

[miramiraonthewall]

I definitely encourage anyone who feels that rape/rape culture awareness threatens their dating lives to seek counseling. There’s not enough that I feel I could say to someone online to deal with that, and it is slightly alarming. I didn't suggest he get counseling because he “differs in his opinion on the existence of rape culture.” I suggest counseling because he’s saying that talking about rape makes him feel bad and interferes with his dating life. I have to wonder what is he doing or saying in his dating life that makes him feel that someone would think he might rape them. And even if he’s not doing anything, he clearly has some illogical (imo) anxiety that I don’t think can be resolved through an online Q&A site. Thus, a mental health professional or psychologist is the best answer in my opinion.

[BelfastBoy]

I think she just proved his point for him... run!!!

[miramiraonthewall]

@BelfastBoy run fast!

[CorruptedDocument]

This woman is very ignorant but ignorance is bliss.

[miramiraonthewall]

@CorruptedDocument Well, thank you. That's a great counter argument.

[CorruptedDocument]

It's not like you'd understand the counter argument even if I posted one, you'd failed to see two already.

[miramiraonthewall]

@CorruptedDocument Okay. Ciao!

[CorruptedDocument]

You aren't Italian.

[Damiandash312]

Let me start by saying I'm incredibly awkward andhave a terrible time approaching gals...
So when she came up to me, told me she thought I was cute and started talking to me... It was amazing.
Then on our first date I had half assed plans to meet for dinner. Sge called me up the day of, told me,! its a beautiful day, I think I'd really like to walk around and see the city with you instead, and then afterwards we can grab a bite to eat.
And so we did and as the night went on we eventually went to the restaurant.
She walks up to the counter, before I can and she says, table for 2. I felt this huge rush of relief. I had never asked a girl out before and definitely never asked for a table for two... I wasn't even aware it was making me stress out.
Then we sat at the table we decide our order then when the guy comes to take it, she makes it, while I'm freaking out a little thinking about what if I say that wrong.
Then she looks at me and apologizes because she knows it's probably annoying since I had offered to pay.
I laughed and thanked the hell out of her and told her I was nervous...
Then she told me she wouldn't mind taking charge whenever, and that shewanred me to be comfortable...
THAT is feminism in it's truest form.

[Distant]

I don't feel guilty for being a guy because some guys are shitty. As men, we see rapists the same way as women do. They're disgusting less-than-people. I'm not worried about a girl being worried about my actions because they're never inappropriate. If I bump into a girl and we end up in a compromising position, I just apologize and go on my way.

However, Feminism has made it harder to talk to women for me because it limits the amount of women I will associate with. I equate feminism to misandry and, when a girl says she's a feminist, I often turn and walk away.

[Asker]

good comment. I try not to feel guilty by association but I just feel like if I were a woman, I would see a lot of guys as potential threats if I believed the whole 1 in 4- 1 in 5, 1 in whatever number statistics of rape, domestic violence and such. I mean why would a woman even WANT to talk to a man with those kind of numbers being thrown at her? you and I obviously know not all men are rapist and rapist are infact not just male and are in the very small minority of society, but does SHE know that. she is constantly told other wise. err I hope I'm making sense.

[Distant]

It may make it harder to date some girls if they blindly listen to inaccurate stats about sexual assault however this fear is always in the back of their mind. I vaguely recall someone saying that a woman's worst nightmare when meeting a new guy is that he's a murder or rapist and a guy's worse nightmare is that she's fat. Perhaps that's why women don't often approach men because they have that potential danger factor. I guess it's the woes of being part of a sexually dimorphic species.

[Asker]

see thats just sad though that a lot of women have to fear that of nearly the entire male population. that doesn't seem fair in the slightest to guys like you or I or the majority of men who would NEVER do such things, but because someone tells them bogus stats (that if are refuted by people tends to lead to social criticism) they have this fear for potentially the rest of their lives. that doesn't seem fair to men OR women.

[AustinMan]

Does this help?

www.girlsaskguys.com/.../a6905-after-the-women-s-movement-where-does-50-shades-of-grey-fit

[OpenClose]

That really depends on what you are referring to as a feminist. What you are likely referring to is what people will call Tumblr feminism, hashtag feminism, or "fainting-couch" feminism (as Christina Hoff Sommers puts it.)

This is the branch of "feminism" that I think the movement needs to alienate itself from. On Tumblr, for instance, a girl was hailed for breaking her hand punching a guy for making a rape joke, and they considered this heroic.

At least half the girls I've dated have called themselves feminists, and in many cases this was a good thing. They were actually more likely to approach ME, and seemed more sex-positive. Their standards for guys were different as well. They weren't interested in men being "studly".

Rashida Jones, from what I've seen, seems to be an example of this. In her interview with VICE, she discussed the porn industry. She is actually fairly pro-porn and pro male sexuality. That's an important perspective to have, because men have always been seen primarily as sexual aggressors, which is what the Tumblr feminists milk. She also dislikes the idea of women using their sexuality as a currency or a form of control, that it taints something that should be pleasurable with a power dynamic and limits women.

Some girls who think like this also call themselves non-feminists, think Jaclyn Glenn. But you need to be more careful with girls who call themselves non-feminists. Many of them will say "I am against feminism because I want men to provide for me and protect me." These are women who want to descend to the Victorian era.

I think one important thing is for men to not make such an effort to impress and approach women. Let them do more of it. The male stereotype is that we are sexual predators, and we see college campuses turning this stereotype into policy. Because of this, men are risking more by having to make the move. It makes more sense when women approach, because men are harder to offend.

[Azara]

nope, if anything it encourages and supports women approaching men.

[Asker]

but how often does that ACTUALLY happen? honestly I've NEVER seen it happen (yes I'm just one guy but still).

[BellePepper]

I've asked guys out and initiated conversations and I'm sure other women have too OP.

[Asker]

fair enough, but it doesn't happen nearly often enough to be any where close to being considered the norm. I mean I've heard far more women say they'd rather be approached than be the one to approach (for fear of rejection.. go figure).

[Azara]

the more its encouraged the more it will happen, until its normal. dating is full of bullshit and games and that should be rectified. but women being active participants in their own lives is not what causes difficulty in dating - for anyone. unfortunately we live in a culture that promotes games and mind fucks. as with anything how fair impartial straighforward and helpful any individual can be, is always limited by the culture we live in., however destroying structures of thought that nurture sense of accomplishment and control women can feel buy initiating their own affairs , is not going to make dating 'easier' for men.

[OpenClose]

I agree. Many the girls I've dated who were the most forward and, well, awesome about it called themselves feminists. And for the record, one of these girls was very anti-circumcision and anti-draft. I never had a problem discussing men's issues with her. The poison comes from the ones Christina Hoff Sommers calls "Fainting-couch feminists". These are the girls who protest "man-spreading", justify punching guys for inappropriate jokes, and justify denying men due process rights based on assuming accusing women should be treated as right by default (Violation of "innocent until proven guilty") They also try to outright ban words. These women seem to want the world to view women as children, which is a big step backwards. They are about as feminist as ISIS is "Islam". They problem is that they are loud and work in echo-chambers. I would like to see more feminists speak out against that nonsense.

[Ratiocinative]

It is something that would be hard to measure but I think it has. Feminism has taught women that if a guy acts masculine it's because he thinks women are bad or he's arrogant, and Feminism tries to teach women to be more masculine.

As politically incorrect as it may be to say, the truth is that women like to chase. If a guy makes himself available to a woman whenever she wants, or if he's chasing her, she will lose interest very fast.

Women are naturally more in touch with emotions so they will let you know when they feel like seeing you. Feminism tells women that everything should be 50/50, so women stop themselves from being women and don't reach out to the guy to let him know she's interested.

Men and women are equal in their value as people, but they are NOT the same. Men and women both play a unique role in a relationship and relationships fail when the man stops acting like a man, or the woman stops acting like a woman.

[Asker]

I clapped for you sir... especially your last statement.

[martyfellow]

Yes, girls routinely threaten to falsely report (or, of course, ACTUALLY falsely report) sexual harassment just to 'get even' with someone or get ahead of him on the ladder. I've seen it many times; your fears aren't at all paranoid.

This is what feminism, the modern version, means to the average woman today That's why most of them don't want to be identified as feminists, even though they''ll say they are feminists in the former sense 50-100 years ago, of wanting equality in work status.

[nalaa]

I don't think so.

It's just that loser gender roles come with more freedom for people to do however they please. Some people thrive on that, others don't. That was different in the 50s, there was little freedom when it came to dating. In the 50s guys knew what they had to do/say and they had the confidence to do it. And now they don't. That's the only difference really
There no proper rules associated with dating anymore which makes it hard for some people. But less rules in a byproduct of more freedom, so I don't know... pick one

No girls thinks just because you talk to her you're going to rape her. Especially not in a public place. It takes more than

[OpenClose]

"In the 50s guys knew what they had to do/say and they had the confidence to do it. And now they don't." I agree. I think the reason this doesn't affect girls so much is because guys' emphasis on looks give women more leeway in terms of personality. So as a guy, for instance, I can't simply work-out or dress-up my way to attractiveness. Both a blessing and a curse at times. So when our roles change, it's just disorienting and confusing as hell. Do I show sexual interest? Do I hide it? Am I supposed to "wear the pants" or am I supposed to let her lead just as much? I generally just err on the side of equality, and if a girl is turned off by that, I know I would have been wasting my time.

[nalaa]

I does affect girls. If you have large group of guys not being able to ask girls out, it DOES affect girls and very much so. But they don't know what to do either. Do they ask them out? Is that okay these days? Do they come off as too strong, too masculine. There are even less rules for girls asking guys out , because essentially it's a unprecedented in human history. Men's emphasis on looks and sex is also confusing as hell. In the 50s no decent girl would wear a short skirt or have sex before marriage. Now we have no idea what guys want. And that's probably because men are different and they now have the freedom to act on it. Some men prefer virgins or to wait for marriage and some men prefer to have sex early in the relationship. Some men prefer showing a lot of skin some men like more modest styles. That wasn't different in the 50s it's just they couldn't express it. They all had to follow one norm

[throwit]

I think it might be easier actually.
Back in the day he guy still had to ask the girl out and start most conversations, had to pay for dates, and a lot of girls didn't put out as early as they do now.
Now a days, women are more likely to offer to pay or split the bill, women are approaching men more, people are having sex earlier, and I think people in general don't put themselves into such small boxes about heir gender rolls.
As far as demonizing men goes, I think it's always been this way but women are now not putting up with it. Getting told to smile by strangers, being touched by strangers, catcalling, and I'm not sure about the false rape statistics but I know two girls who were raped and two girls who were beaten by their boyfriends. I've asked a question on here about this before and most guys voted "I've never been assaulted or raped but I know someone who has" while most girls voted for "I have been assaulted raped or molested"
So I don't think feminism demonizes men, it just calls out shit men do that ALL women have experienced, but that doesn't mean that ALL men do it.

[Surfofthenomad]

I'm sorry, despite all the progress we have made, women are NOT approaching men. They are still generally insecure and instead of playing the equal role, they'd rather wait around and play the "Oh, he's the male, he should do it" card. Catcalling, telling girls to smile, being by touched by strangers is definitely not okay. But modern feminism calls for this "end to rape", which paints this wide brush like all men have rape tendencies, as if it's innate in all of us. I can't control what goes through a rapist's sick mind, that's like "Oh, well, statistically men murder more, so men need to call for an end to murder". All my male friends hold the consensus that rape is as bad as murder, and that's where the frustration comes from, I'm afraid to approach women in public because I could easily be charged with sexual harassment, and who's going to win that case in court? Most likely the woman.

[throwit]

Feminism does not assume all men are rapists. What is says is all women have been sexually harassed, but not all men do it. The only way you would be charged with anything is if you touch a woman innappropriately without consent. If women still sent approaching men first then that's not feminism a fault lol, that's just the way it's always been and obviously needs more time to change. But most girls I know including myself will split the bill or pay for he whole thing when it comes to dates.

[throwit]

@surfofthenomad

[PhoenixItalian]

"The only way you would be charged with anything is if you touch a woman innappropriately without consent." Simply not true at all, especially in places like corporate America and the military. All that needs to happen for you to be charged is an accusation most of the time.

[throwit]

And then you're let go because here's never any proof. Or because you're in the military or in a corporate job you have people protecting you and you don't get charged. Only 16% of people accused of rape ever get jail time. And no girl would waste her time if she didn't feel like she was actually assaulted, what does she have to gain from that?

[throwit]

@phoenixitalian

[PhoenixItalian]

40% disability compensation for emotional distress, after that was enacted, there was a HUGE increase in accusations. Or you're not let go because a lack of proof doesn't mean you're not guilty and when there's proof you didn't do anything it doesn't fall in line with the smash the patriarchal rape culture so that evidence of innocence is disregarded in initial proceedings. Nobody in the military was protecting anyone. NCIS was gunning for a conviction no matter what really happened and colonels were rewording reports to further persecution. The fact that our society is so sexist to hold the word of one over another based on gender disgusts me as it almost ruined my life and it HAS ruined the lives of many.

[ConfusedShyGirl]

Try either getting to know a girl in public or through a friend, you won't to worry about if she is thinking that will happen, when it comes to dates with a girl you dont know try places like restaurants, when she gets to know you well she won't feel that way. Just be your normal self and be friendly. Hope this helps

[The_other_one]

Dont know if this fits here but oh well... I was hanging out with this girls back then, and after we had sex once, she then told her male friends that I raped her. short story short, i was lured onto a train station parkinglot under false messages and got beaten up. next i was in hospital. Since then I've lost all faith in ever trusting women again. I am quite shy, but even this. me sharing this is filling me up with hate and rage >:(

anyway hope this was a fine addition to your article

[Hidden_P]

No.

Dating and relationships involve talking and connecting. If that person doesn't reciprocate then of course it's harder. But that could be caused by feminism, wealth, social differences, culture, or being a dickhead, among other reasons.
If that person and you don't click and you don't agree you don't date. Find someone you do get on with.
Feminism is just another factor, like any other.

[LittleSally]

Nope...
Unless you want to date a person who is an extreme feminist... then I guess it can be more difficult.

[JSmith925]

Actually, I would have to agree with this perspective. I think feminism has made women defensive---particularly in the office.

In the 1950's, if you told a woman in business that she looked nice, she felt complemented. If you tell her now she might react with “So, I am not valued for my work?”

It seems risky these days to speak on any personal level with women. The specter of “sexual harassment” is always looming. It is sometimes defined so broadly, you could be accused of looking at a woman the wrong way.

I believe this pervasive uneasiness also bleeds over into recreational settings. It leads me to wonder if so many people meet in bars because the need alcohol to relax enough to make an approach or be approachable.

[Asker]

I didn't even think about it in the work place, good addition to the topic!

[Scrambled]

I think feminism has helped men. But be that or not, MEN have made it more difficult. The bar of what is successful in today's 1st world is just so much higher. Women are, in summary, attracted to power in a man. Power has different definitions and those men that are good with their power (can be money, humour, looks, personality) etc win at the end of the day.

[heavensgift2girls]

Men have not made it more difficult. Life was actually much harder a long time ago than most people think it was. Men either died off young do to hard lives and never reproduced leaving a few men to several women, or a few became successful enough and hoarded most of the women for themselves leaving many men single. It has been that way through most of history. Our ideas of what they past was like was taught by a society trying to impose a certain lifestyle on us, as oppose to trying to teach people the way the world really has been.

[thedevilwithin]

Haha i love the first disclaimer, cause when i read the title i was like yeah it's made it harder for men to buy women lol...
I don't know i think it's rape culture that has women more concerned when it comes to strange men. Because it's our responsibility to be really really careful when we go out, because if something horrible does happen to us it's our fault.

Like if you drink too much and someone, like even a male friend takes advantage of your inebriated state or while you're sleeping (like after crashing at a party) and some guy you may have flirted with takes that as a sign to go for your panties, it's kind of seen as your fault for giving that person the opportunity to take advantage of you. That's why i have a two drink limit when i go out, and i make sure i can drive myself home so i don't have to deal with anyone saying i asked for it, or i led the guy on by flirting or someone asking me what i was wearing.
And then there's this whole thing of women lying about being raped, which again makes me feel like if i'm not on guard and really careful and something happens to me, who's going to believe me? No-one, I'll be second guessed and questioned and treated like a criminal.
Does this make it harder for men to speak to me though?
Yes and No. It makes it near next to impossibly for men to fuck me, but they can carry on a conversation with me. I'm not mean, I am just very focused on not giving a guy the wrong impression or leading him on.

[thedevilwithin]

Sorry and just in terms of the whole accidental bump thing, it would be very unlikely that anyone would cry assault at that. Unless they have psychological problems or something.

[OlderAndWiser]

I have used online dating as my sole means of finding women to date. My profile clearly says that I am a traditional Southern gentleman but that I don't do anything that I consider demeaning to women. So, I message a lady and I assume she reads my profile before she messages back to me. If I get a response, I assume that she is okay with my explanation of who I am and what I am about, so I don't have any problems with that.

Also, at my age, most women appreciate the equal pay for equal work agenda, but otherwise don't endorse the version of feminism which they encountered when they were younger.

[orlaith]

Yes,
I can't speak for other women but I wish more guys approached me. I really do.
Guys are so afraid to do it now and it's rare. It makes me feel annoyed a lot.
The problem was that feminists didn't like so called 'creeps' that would approach them and treat them like a piece of meat. There are a lot of shitty guys out there that messed it up for the good guys.
Any guy worth his weight will still approach women. It's also how you approach them. You just have to show respect. It's the same for both sexes.
Everyone should show each other respect, that's the bottom line :)
P. S
Please approach women.