If the man doesn't want to keep the baby then he shouldn't have to pay child support. Agree or disagree?

[CT_CD]

[OlderAndWiser]

1. Men have just as many opportunities as women to opt out of creating a new life. After all, we know what causes pregnancy and no one forces a guy to have sex with a woman.

2, Birth control is the responsibility of both parties.

3. Many women object to abortions for religious or moral reasons. What kind of choice is this: Get an abortion that you don't want or give up child support. That is the equivalent of saying "You're pregnant. Too bad. I;m not paying child support. Do whatever you want."

4. The truly innocent party in this is the child. The result for the child is "Kid, you're not gonna have a father and you're gonna grow up without the financial support that you deserve. Too bad."

5. If a guy is not mature enough to take care of his responsibilities, he shouldn't take a chance on making babies.

[fmnst]

Agree, especially with point 3. And people here talk about abortion like it's an easy decision to make and not traumatizing at all! They sound like they think it should be like: "I don't want to father this child, bye.", "oh, that's ok, I'll have an abortion then.".

[Bananaman177]

Yes, as long as women have the right to terminate their own babies, it's completely ridiculous and absurd to expect FATHERS to have no right to simply terminate their parental responsibilities.

I mean, talk about women literally "getting away with murder."

What is it with women and never being held accountable for anything, ever, no matter what? And they think MALES have all the privilege? Fuckin' trade me right now! Any of you broads, I'll fuckin' trade my "privilege" for yours any goddamn time. ANY fucking time.

[CarpetDenim]

I'm against either party opting out of parenthood really, the man or the woman. If you don't want to have a baby, close your goddamn legs. If you don't want to have to financially support or take care of a baby, keep your dick in your pants, it's really that simple. And if you're going to have sex anyway, USE PROTECTION. That's hammered into your brain since the second you reach high school, so it shouldn't be such a difficult concept to grasp as a fully grown adult. If you fuck up, take responsibility, you don't get to hit a magical fucking do-over button.

[disgustingweebtrash]

The Chad response

[CarpetDenim]

I-Is that good?

[disgustingweebtrash]

Your opinion = Chad Mine = virgin

[CarpetDenim]

Yes I agree, your opinion kinda sucked because you played into the idea that you can fix a wrong by canceling it out with another wrong.

[Bananaman177]

Yeah, but as of right now, women have all the power and men have none, so it doesn't really matter what you personally feel about the issue, the point is, millions and millions and millions of men have been severely punished to the point of ruining their lives and driving them to suicide for something we let women do every day, all day long, and face ZERO consequences. And you wonder why men are all "going their own way."

[disgustingweebtrash]

On the other one I have a Chad response

[CarpetDenim]

@Bananaman177 I don't wonder why men are going their own way actually. I agree with a lot of the stuff MGTOW guys talk about, and I agree with everything you just said about women having all the power and men being largely mistreated by today's society. However, I don't think that allowing men to opt out of parenthood is a good idea just because women do. That's a lot like how feminists think promiscuity in men entitles them to sleep around and be promiscuous themselves. Two wrongs don't make a right, what we should be doing is condemning the wrong behavior from both sides instead of adding to the pandemonium.

[jacquesvol]

@Bananaman177 you forget the millions of deadbeat dads and single mothers.

[disgustingweebtrash]

@jacquesvol Women open their legs to deadbeats, simple and now they're single mothers.

[jacquesvol]

@disgustingweebtrash They only learn later the guy is a deadbeat

[CarpetDenim]

@jacquesvol No they don't. You can judge the morals and the character of a man and have a good idea of what he would probably do in that situation before sleeping with him.

[jacquesvol]

If he posts on internet about financial abortion , for instance?

[Bananaman177]

But "the pandemonium" you're talking about is women getting away with it. So your position is that you want that status quo to continue? Because the only other alternative is banning abortion, and I don't see that happening. As long as one gender is actively getting away with murder, it's hypocritical to say that the other gender shouldn't because "two wrongs don't make a right." One wrong does?

[CarpetDenim]

No, CT_CD is just trying to point out the hypocrisy of women. He asked another question at the same time as this one asking if it should be okay for a woman to abort a baby. Unsurprisingly, most women supported abortion but condemned the notion of not forcing men to pay child support. Because they're hypocrites.

[CarpetDenim]

@Bananaman177 No, I literally said I think the wrong behavior from BOTH sides, abortions and skipping child support, should be condemned. I did not in any way support the notion of continuing the status quo. My position is that all this bullshit just needs to stop and people need to take responsibility and face the consequences of their own mistakes. Yes, it's reasonably fair to grant men the right not to pay child support when women can kill their babies to get out of caring for them, but is it morally right? Is it going to benefit society as a whole? Or better yet, is it going to benefit the children themselves? Absolutely not, but what IS right and what WOULD benefit society is outlawing abortion and discouraging promiscuity.

[disgustingweebtrash]

@jacquesvol You only learn later the girl is lying about birth control, so what? Get off your horse white knight and start critiquing women for their bullshit, they are not immune to criticism.

[jacquesvol]

@disgustingweebtrash Stop your misogyny, please.

[CarpetDenim]

@jacquesvol He isn't in any way being misogynistic. And that's coming from a girl.

[disgustingweebtrash]

Misogyny =/= criticism It is misogynistic to put women on a pedestal and justify all their hypocrisies and decisions by blaming men. You are implying that women are incapable of self awareness and need men to make decisions for them. You are the Misogynist here. No one else. But because of your age you refuse to keep an open mind and concede defeat.

[jacquesvol]

@disgustingweebtrash We met before on that subject.

[fauchelevent]

Agree. If a guy makes it clear that he doesn't want the child, he should be able to perform a kind of financial abortion, wherein he has no access to the child so he doesn't have to perform a fatherly role (though I guess if the kid grows up and wants to seek them out, that should be okay) but also doesn't have to pay child support for a kid he never wanted. Obviously though with that, he doesn't get to see the kid until they're an adult and want to see him since it's fucked up to walk in and out of a kid's life.

[fmnst]

Yeah, but he should state that he doesn't want a baby even before making one, although accidents can happen. Because what if the woman doesn't want to go through an abortion or to give the baby for adoption? People have to think how traumatizing both situations can be. She's the one that's going to have to not only take care of the baby but won't even have financial support from the father.

[XRabbitHeartX]

The man knew the implications of sex. It's not rocket science. Every time you are gonna have sex there is a chance of pregnancy. So if you were willing to have sex, you agreed to this risk and therefore should have taken precautions accordingly. There is a wonderful thing called a condom.

I don't believe in excuses. If you fucked up, it's on you and you gotta handle the consequences plain and simple.

[wankiam]

i was going to reply myself but you said it all here

[XRabbitHeartX]

And also to add, it says a lot about one's character if you are OK with knowing you have your DNA running in a little kid or child somewhere on the earth and you can't give 2 fucks about him or her.

[genuinlysensitive]

If they both know the risks how come only women get to opt out?

[Aaron-Rider]

Exactly @genuinelysensitive, I’m interested in hearing @XRabbitHeartX’s opinion on this

[Bananaman177]

So the reason why women are allowed to abort their babies is because they didn't know sex would result in pregnancy? I thought they taught sex ed to the girls too.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@genuinlysensitive Where did I say women can opt out? Read. "I don't believe in excuses. If you fucked up, it's on you and you gotta handle the consequences plain and simple." Stop making assumptions.

[genuinlysensitive]

You didn't have to its a fact that women are allowed to opt out legally. Just because you don't say it doesn't change reality. I don't believe anyone should be able to opt out personally, however women can, even though you didn't say it in this thread.

[fmnst]

Perfect answer, except for the part of the condom (accidents can happen. So, as you said previously, everytime you have sex, there's a chance of pregnancy).

[XRabbitHeartX]

Well from a legal perspective the woman Is the one having to go through 9 months pregnancy and comes with a lot of complications. That alone changes the game. You as a man only have to pay money. Nothing compared to carrying a baby for almost a year and going through physical changes. Yes condoms can fail but lets be real if you use it correctly then statistically the odds are against you for getting her pregnant. The failure % is minimal with correct usage.

[Bananaman177]

It's "minimal" when you look at the general trends, but that's not how it works in real life. In real life, it happens to one individual at a time, and it's either nothing at all, or it's major. There's no "minimal." You're not minimally pregnant, you either are or you aren't. If a condom fails on you, and you get pregnant, you won't feel like the risk was "minimal." And I know a lady who keeps getting pregnant using condoms AND she's on the pill.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Bananaman177 Where did I say someone is minimally pregnant? You are either being stubborn or you really didn't understand what I mean. The statistical odds of getting pregnant with CORRECT condom use (which is not rocket science fyi) is minimal. "When used consistently and correctly, condoms are 98% effective in preventing pregnancy and are the only form of birth control that also can prevent STI" www.factsaboutcondoms.com/.../...0FAQ%202.4.13.pdf

And the pill by the way is 99% effective if used CORRECTLY.

If you use condoms and take the pill and get pregnant you are either incredibly stupid or incredibly extremely unlucky (which no, is not every human being who ends up getting pregnant). Most people who get pregnant and are then surprised are ones who are just that stupid and didn't use birth control ("It won't happen to me") or used wrong methods like the pull out method.

[XRabbitHeartX]

And if you are gonna have sex, you are gonna have to accept the odds of pregnancy. That is why people shouldn't sleep around. There is a reason why sex should be between two adults who are mature, in a loving relationship and stable. Sex IS how you make a baby after all. You cannot have sex and then be completely astonished by the fate of a pregnancy. You can lessen these odds but fundamentally sex is how babies are made. That is why you have to THINK and use your BRAIN. Too bad people these days don't have common sense.

[Bananaman177]

You're arguing that the unlucky people don't exist by saying that the chances are "minimal." Well, if it happens to you, the chances won't be "minimal," they'll be a hundred fucking percent. You have minimal chances of shooting yourself playing Russian Roulette too, only one in six people shoots themselves, they're just extremely unlucky.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Bananaman177 I don't see your point. a) You know the implication of sex when you do so. Everyone knows where babies come from and b) there is protection available that is up to 99% effective. It is on you. Nobody forced you to have sex unless you were raped. You knew point blank what you were doing when you put your dick in a woman or when a woman agreed to have sex. Take ownership.

[Bananaman177]

My point is simply YOUR point, but aimed at YOU also, not just men. It is not "the man's responsibility," it's YOUR responsibility also, it takes TWO people to have sex, both are equally responsible, it is not okay to say it is the man's responsibility only when the legal system is already set up to take men's rights away on a woman's say so. You are EGREGIOUSLY abusing your female privilege and it's very fucking ugly, that's my point.

[XRabbitHeartX]

@Bananaman177 What is ugly is when people choose to be blind and just want to look at their own ignorance. Guess what, nowhere did I say the responsibility falls only on a man. I even addressed this very point earlier in the conversation but guess you didn't even bother to read anything else other than your own opinion. I'm so glad males in my country have more common sense than American egotistical males.

[DarkWasTaken]

Depends on the reason a pregnancy happened.

If you were protecting yourself, condom broke and your psycho girlfriend decided she was ready for a baby and wants to keep it even though you both agreed to wear protection and use emergency meaning to prevent that, sure.

If you're not even trying to prevent it and you just run away after unloading inside then no.

[ciitruskiwi]

I agree but he has to disclose. If I were a guy and would want opt out I'd disclose before sex even if we were using protection. So if she gets pregnant she'll know right off the bat that she's on her own.

[cocaths]

Not all women just keep the baby out of spite. There's moral reasons to it too and if the guy can't wrap then that's his problem.

[Bananaman177]

They make condoms for women too, so your argument is retarded.

[cocaths]

Lmao. Those are inconvenient, expensive and painful.

[fmnst]

You're right. Also, about condoms, accidents can happen.

[Bananaman177]

SO ARE MALE CONDOMS, YOU INCREDIBLE DIP!

[cocaths]

Lmao they're not expensive, no one ever said they were painful except you just now and inconvenient? How? Those two seconds it takes to put them on? Give me a break dude

[ciitruskiwi]

So if you don't want kids it's the guy's responsibility to not get you pregnant? That's fucking stupid. It isn't just the guys responsibility. It's both of your jobs to be responsible adults since it takes two to have sex.

[ciitruskiwi]

It's like women getting pregnant and saying it's the guy's fault cause he didn't wear a condom. You do realize you can protect yourself too right? It's not all on the guy to do it.

[ciitruskiwi]

And not to mention women have a lot more options for protection to choose from than guys do. Don't expect the guy to cover your ass, cover your own ass.

[Bananaman177]

Then why don't YOU carry the male condoms you want all your male partners to use on you?

[cocaths]

Cuz I'm not the one wearing them. Why aren't you carrying my underwear?

[lumos]

I agree. I think it would only be fair in a world where abortions are legal.

[ladsin]

I think so.

[ladsin]

If you have a solid argument for the contrary please present it because I would be more than happy to hear one. Until this point though I have not

[Band_freak]

Funny how so many people preach equality but don't agree with your statment

[fmnst]

Because abandoning your baby and going through an abortion are comparable situations, right?

[JimRSmith]

Disagree entirely.

Man up, and do the right thing.

[booshlinux]

If men or women can't step up to the plate and raise the child that they created then they have no balls in my book. However I feel like they should have the right to make this choice, but the consequences of this would be no access to the child at all, including no respect from many peers, without the chance of revoking the decision.

[Deydey12345]

He can opt out before having unprotected sex lol. It's not as if she forced him (raped) into sex with her. He wanted to cum in, well with sperm inside cums a baby, time to wake up.

[CT_CD]

The woman can opt out before having unprotected sex to but she can get an abortion

[Demosiac]

Reading all of this makes me glad that Indonesia have no law that force men to pay. Thank God.

[bubble_tea]

I agree, but he also has to make it known within the time limit where women are legally allowed to abort.

[fmnst]

Most women, even if they don't wanted the baby, won't have an abortion, though... People have to think how traumatizing it can be.

[bubble_tea]

@fmnst I'm sure you've heard of this invention called adoption.

[fmnst]

And you think giving your baby for adoption is an easy decision to make too, not traumatizing at all? "I won't father this child.", "Oh, ok, I'll have an abortion then or give it up for adoption." It amazes me how so many people lack empathy.

[bubble_tea]

@fmnst No, it's not easy, but nobody said she can't keep it.

[fmnst]

You said "I agree, but he also has to make it known within the time limit where women are legally allowed to abort.", meaning that, if she didn't want to go through an abortion or give the child for adoption, she would have to raise the child with no "help" from the father if he refuses to fulfill his obligation.

[bubble_tea]

@fmnst That is correct. Both parties should have the option to opt out. The reverse would be: nobody gets to opt out, and that is an even worse outcome.

[fmnst]

No. When a man decides to abandon his child, the child is still there with the mother and she will have to raise them by hereself. It's not comparable to abortion or giving the child to adoption.

[ladsin]

@fmnst explain your position a little more. At this point the site is not showing your opinion (if you added one) and I would like to hear your coherent argument for men not also having a decision with their children.

[bubble_tea]

@fmnst She already has 3 options to choose from and social security in case she has no money to raise it, what more do you want?

[bubble_tea]

@ladsin She must be a troll. 'She' has no opinion.

[Alistayr]

Totally disagree. He helped make it, he should help bring it up. If people don't want responsibilities, then don't have sex.

[Bandit74]

I agree.

[loveshorro]

I mean, if he can afford child support and what not, then yes I think he should pay for it. However, if him and the women make an agreement or figure something out, and she is understanding that he does not at all want to be involved or pay and she can afford it. then I don’t think he should have to

[Eyes_On_Me]

He should voice his opinion during the time in which the woman can get an abortion. If the woman really wants the baby, that's fine but she should raise it herself if the man doesn't want to and gave her the opportunity to be lifted of that burden.

[omgjassy]

No..

[CT_CD]

Yes.

[omgjassy]

Nope

[LegateLanius]

Agreed. However, the law usually goes like this: Talk to an attorney. Voluntary termination of your parental rights is only given if there is “good cause.” "Good cause" varies from case to case. Both parties must consent. Avoiding financial responsibility or trying to rid yourself of the other parent is never “good cause.” Once granted, your rights in a parent-child relationship are gone forever.

[dolemite68]

I think when people are going to want a baby they should both verbally decide before they even have sex, if neither party wants the baby they should be able to opt out. it's so arbitrary that a girl can just keep it even if he doesn't want it.

[TheUglyMonk]

It´s only fair that way.

[LuWe22]

You created it you pay for it

[ladsin]

We both created it though.

[LuWe22]

Yes and the female already pay for it. She have to buy food, toys and more and if you aren't going to be a Part of it you have to pay

[ladsin]

Why? Im just asking you to rationally justify your position.

[LuWe22]

Because when you sleep with a women without condom and she get's pregnant then you are both responsible for the baby. You both created it. If you don't want the baby the mother has to decide if she wants to keep it. It's her body and her choice. Then both have to pay for the kid and kids are expensive.

[ladsin]

It's also my child, not just hers. I don't understand your rationale

[LuWe22]

Yes. It's also your child so it's your responsibly. What does you not understand?

[ladsin]

This may clarify it for me, do you think a woman has a right to abort?

[LuWe22]

Yes.

[ladsin]

So a mother has a right to choose, but a father doesn't have a right to choose to withdraw his financial support? I don't understand that.

[LuWe22]

Yes a mother has the right because she has a life formed inside her. Not the man. If it was the opposite it would be the same. If men would get pregnant then they had the choice. I believe that it is her body (what only happen to her) so it's her choice.

[ladsin]

Well obviously it's not "only happening to her" because you'd be taking my money right? 😂 That means it affects my life as well.

[LuWe22]

The pregancy and problems with it only happen to her

[ladsin]

Except the child that is born from it. That's a pretty big problem with pregnancy if you don't want children XP