Do you agree with this theory?

[mistixs]

There are lots of people who think female orgasm is just a vestigial byproduct of the vital male orgasm, which amazes me. I think the purpose of the female orgasm is extremely obvious.

First off, orgasm isn't vital for males either. It's possible for males to ejaculate without orgasm/pleasure; it's called "ejaculatory anhedonia" & there's also occasionally sperm in precum. Male orgasm exists solely to encourage males to mate.

Female orgasm also exists to encourage females to mate. But in the case of female orgasm, orgasm also acts a litmus test so that the females ONLY mate with the mates who are most suitable. Females need this litmus test because mating with the wrong person can be deadly.

Proof that female orgasm serves as a litmus test for mate quality?
Women orgasm more often if a man is rich, attractive, and funny.
Women are more likely than men to consider "bad sex" to be a dealbreaker.

The differences in ease of orgasm motivate the different genders to follow the most successful sexual strategy for their gender (it motivates women to seek the highest-quality mates, and motivates men to seek the highest quantity of mates [because they can orgasm with pretty much any sexual partner]).

The fact that women orgasm more easily in sexual acts (such as cunnilingus) that don't include penetration (& therefore, risk of pregnancy) proves that female orgasm exists so a woman can confirm whether a mate is suitable, before she risks having sex with him.

Thus, female orgasm isn't a vestigial byproduct of male orgasm, but a functional method for women to weed out unsuitable mates (the ones who don't give orgasms) and discover the highest-quality mates, so that they don't risk their life carrying the child of an unsuitable mate.

[Benedek38]

" in the case of female orgasm, orgasm also acts a litmus test so that the females ONLY mate with the mates who are most suitable."

The problem with this statement is that she will get pregnant whether she enjoys it or not.
Ejacultory adhedonia is a sexual disorder. You failed to mention it. It's the exception, not the rule.

"Women orgasm more often if a man is rich, attractive, and funny."

Can we use this same reasoning to say all women are gold diggers? Or is that sexist?

"Women are more likely than men to consider "bad sex" to be a dealbreaker."
That's because women have an easier tine finding replacement. Women IN GENERAL have more deal-breakers than men by far.

"women orgasm more easily in sexual acts (such as cunnilingus) that don't include penetration (& therefore, risk of pregnancy) proves that female orgasm exists so a woman can confirm whether a mate is suitable, before she risks having sex with him."
Again, bullshit. All mammals have clitorises, yet cunnilingus as far as I know is a distincly human phenomenon. You haven't seen a male deer eat out a female one, have you? Well, that's because they have antlers they fight with, to ensure natural selection. How about cats? Cats have barbes penises. It's extremely uncomfortable for the female to mate. Where does orgasm come into play there?

Your whole reasoning is all over the place. You conflate orgasm and clitoris. The clitoris is for all intents and purposes an underdeveloped penis - penises develop from the same tissue during gestation as clitorises.
But orgasm is unrelated to this.
The fact that you admit female orgasm can be caused by penetration AND clitoral excitation shows that this is NOT a discrete bodily function.

I admit, I am not an expert on what female orgasms feel like by virtue on being a woman. I'd have to look into the neurology of orgasms to understand it more, and to determine whether it has a biological function.

What I DO know however is that orgasm has almost certainly no essential role in reproduction. In fact the fact that you have mentioned women want and enjoy sex with attractive and rich individuals more shows that there is already a selection mechanism at play here. No need to introduce another one.
Sorry, honey, but evolution doesn't care about your joy.

Final thoughts: I really hate that the feminist movement has made female sexuality this almost otherworldly phenomenon with myths and urban legens woven inbetween, while dumbing down male sexuality to "well, ugly disgusting dick gets hard, then he ejaculates, and sleeps. I hate men".
If you want to talk about female orgasms, stick to facts, and don't try to introduce distrating false information like you did before.

[mistixs]

"she will get pregnant whether she enjoys it or not." And a man can get someone pregnant whether he enjoys it or not. As for other animals. Female humans need to be more selective in mating, because due to a combination of large brains and narrow hips, childbirth is FAR more dangerous for humans than other animals. If you're gonna comment on how many other animals reproduce primarily by rape... well, black widow spiders eat their husbands after mating. These comparisons to other animals mean nothing. "the fact that you have mentioned women want and enjoy sex with attractive and rich individuals more shows that there is already a selection mechanism at play here." And the sexual selection is related to orgasm. "orgasm has almost certainly no essential role in reproduction" Are you referring to both male and female orgasm? In that case, I agree, because ejaculatory anhedonia - even if it's rare - is proof that male orgasm isn't essential for reproduction. Pleasure always exists to motivate you to do something (e. g. eating food is pleasurable, despite the pleasure not being vital)

[Benedek38]

"And a man can get someone pregnant whether he enjoys it or not." True. I never said male orgasms are needed. But they are a side-effect of a bodily function 99.999% of the time. A muscle spasm. I wouldn't attribute anything special to it, other that it feeling kinda good. "Female humans need to be more selective in mating, because due to a combination of large brains and narrow hips, childbirth is FAR more dangerous for humans than other animals." That's not true though. That's a recent phenomenon due to medicine and complex society. This is a change that happened the last few thousand years, which is negligable on an evolutionary scale. "If you're gonna comment on how many other animals reproduce primarily by rape" I love how you frame it as rape. Can two animals have consensual sex? Just because it hurts for the female cat to mate, doesn't mean she doesn't want it. I have seen female cats chase male ones just so the male impregnates them. "Well, black widow spiders eat their husbands after mating." One, that's not true in all cases. Mantis and spider females eat the males often because the males are smaller, and with their purpose fulfilled, and them being near the female, they are a threat to the female, as well as adequate food source. It's not part of reproduction. In fact tarantula females often eat the male BEFORE mating. Because fuck it. Spiders are not exactly smart. Speaking of smart - the difference between spiders and humans is rather substantial, don't you think? "And the sexual selection is related to orgasm." Often it is. So? Relation doesn't say the direction of the causation. I said sexual selection => orgasm You said orgasm => sexual selection. "Are you referring to both male and female orgasm?" Yes. Male orgasm has no practical role either, but it happens regardless in 99.9999% of the cases, since ejaculatory anhedonia is incredibly rare.

[Benedek38]

"Pleasure always exists to motivate you to do something" I would contest this. Pleasure is merely a neural spasm. If something induces pleasure, sure, it will motivate you to do that thing. But pleasure doesn't necessarily have a purpose. The perfect example of this is exactly the clitoris - it has zero purpose to exist. Most people wouldn't even find it if we didn't talk about it. It doesn't serve sexual arrousal, though it can help stimulating someone sexually. But stimulating the clitoris reinforced the act of... stimulating the clitoris. This is a closed loop, there is no point to this source of pleasure from an evolutionary perspective. Similar is the case with male nipples.

[mistixs]

Do you have a source that childbirth wasn't so dangerous for women until a few thousand years ago? "It doesn't serve sexual arrousal" you seriously think that having the clit stimulated doesn't sexually arouse a woman?

[Benedek38]

"Do you have a source that childbirth wasn't so dangerous for women until a few thousand years ago?" Child birth was always dangerous. But the increase in brain cavity, and the decrease of the pelvic opening in women (and men) was a gradual process accelerated by modern civilization. I have no source on this, and I can't be bothered to look it up. by the way if sexual selection was such a conscious process as you described it, why do women go for exorbitantly tall men, even though being too tall leads to an array of issues? "you seriously think that having the clit stimulated doesn't sexually arouse a woman?" No. I said that it's not its intended purpose. But let's imagine the thought process behind this: "We need a button that can instantly turn a woman on, and make her want to have sex!" "Great idea. Where do we put it?" "Right above the vaginal opening" "That makes no sense - when the make is behind her, she will have sex, regardless of pleasure." "... And make it incredibly small and hard to fund!" "Ok, you completely lost me." The "purpose" of the clitoris is purely to give you pleasure. But since it gives more intense pleasure than vaginak excitation, this is like snorting coke to increase your productivity, and then saying "well, this is better than working, let's just snort coke without working". Pleasure, as I said, can be the payoff of a feedback loop. But there is no output if the pleasure clitorak excitation creates, it's self-serving pleasure.

[mistixs]

"the male [bats] started licking the females’ vaginas ― the act known as cunnilingus. This foreplay may help arouse and lubricate females, the researchers said...
The researchers found that the longer the stints of cunnilingus before mating, the more copulation was prolonged." www.livescience.com/...-bats-perform-oral-sex.html

"The clitoris is stimulated naturally by the bull during mating and if stimulated manually during artificial insemination, it can result in increased conception rates in mature cows. Clitoral stimulation is believed to cause an increase in uterine contractions such that sperm transport is enhanced."
www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/.../beef4888

"men at a greater recurrent risk of sperm competition expressed greater interest in, and spent more time performing, oral sex on their partner.”
www.psychologytoday.com/.../going-down-is-coming-oral-sex-and-its-confusions

But if we can't agree that pleasure in general has an evolutionary purpose then I guess this is pointless

[Benedek38]

As usual, you found two random examples from the animal kingdom of cunnilingus happening in the SMALL MINORITY if cases, and then applied it as "Look guys! It works!" Here's a curveball for you. Hyenas give birth through their clitoris. Does that mean female humans can do that too?

[rutgerhauer]

I have often wondered what the purpose of female orgasm is... but rather like 'why do men have nipples', it hasn't distracted me that much.
Thing is, as far as I'm concerned, female orgasms (yes, plural) are as important to him as they are to her. Of course they're not essential and it's possible to have vibrantly good sex without them, but I like my women to climax more than I want to myself... and that way, when she does, I'm more likely to. Hitting the right spot with a woman is (for me at least) the single most horny thing about sex!!!

[ZiZi_Bell]

My only problem with this theory is that I cum relatively easily compared to other friends I have. Haha

[mistixs]

True, there are always exceptions. There's also a percentage of men who don't orgasm as easily as most men. But exceptions don't disprove the rule :p

[Benedek38]

"But exceptions don't disprove the rule" She said, while arguing with ejaculatory adhedonia, a male sexual diorder that's extremely rare.

[mistixs]

@Benedek38 if a single man can reproduce without orgasm, that debunks the idea that male orgasm is vital to reproduction. But notice I never said that female orgasm was *vital* either, just that both male and female orgasms serve as motivators (similar to how ALL forms of pleasure exist solely to motivate people to do certain things). Just like you can reproduce without pleasure, you can eat without pleasure; in both cases, it proves that pleasure isn't vital, but a motivator.

[Benedek38]

"if a single man can reproduce without orgasm, that debunks the idea that male orgasm is vital to reproduction." It debunks a statement you made up for yourself. The problem here is male orgasm and ejaculation are so closely intertwined, that the words are used interchangably. No need to look for some conspiracy or false facts, I am pretty sure everyone agrees that if the guy can ejaculate without pleasure, that still gets women pregnant. As for the rest of you comment, see my answer on my own thread on this question.

[mistixs]

@Benedek38 "It debunks a statement you made up for yourself" many people say that male orgasm is vital for reproduction. I've heard it so many times.

[Benedek38]

Yes, because it's connected in people's heads with ejaculation. Example: does "cumming" refer to orgasm, ejaculation, or both?

[ZiZi_Bell]

Well this got out of hand.

[theharlequin]

It certainly could be a part of it.

But female orgasm also greatly increases the chances of fertilization because it causes the cervix to reposition and ‘dip’ into the semen pool in the vagina.

I don’t know who says it’s a vestigial byproduct, but it most certainly serves useful roles.

[mistixs]

Well, even this fact could confirm my theory. Orgasm assists in reproduction, but for women, only assists when it comes to more suitable mates, therefore making impregnation by unsuitable mates less likely. You know what I mean? But thanks for your input (:

[Dargil]

Female orgasm is a vestigial byproduct of male orgasm.
With men, almost all orgasms and ejaculation are simultaneous.

[mistixs]

The fact that not all male ejaculations are accompanied by pleasure/orgasm is proof that ejaculating sperm isn't the purpose of orgasm. The purpose of male orgasm and sexual pleasure is to motivate men to pursue their optimal mating strategies (quantity). Meanwhile the purpose of female orgasm and sexual pleasure is to motivate women to pursue their optimal mating strategies (quality)

[mistixs]

Pleasure always exists to motivate you to do something (e. g. Eating food is pleasurable, despite the pleasure not being vital)

[Dargil]

"The fact that not all male ejaculations are accompanied by pleasure/orgasm is proof that ejaculating sperm isn't the purpose of orgasm" An exception does not disprove a rule. Thought experiment. Fewer than 25% of women have an orgasm from intercourse alone. How does that fit your hypothesis? Enjoyment of sex is not a measurable element of reproductive strategy. Neither is receptivity. Why rape victims can become pregnant.

[mistixs]

Most women orgasm from actions like cunnilingus that don't result in impregnation, because if orgasm is a litmus test for mate quality, it defeats the point for that litmus test to result in orgasm during intercourse, because at that point, the woman has already had sex with the person & risked pregnancy. This indicates that a woman is meant to first experience foreplay to orgasm before engaging in intercourse "why rape victims can get pregnant" like you said, the exception doesn't disprove the rule

[Dargil]

You just keep thinking what you're thinking. In the end, it matters not at all.

[DDpsy]

No I do not agree with either theories that much. I think they both over estimate the role of sexual selection in human evolution.
For pretty much the entirety of the time humans have existed what determined the ability to mate was ones ability to reach the age where they could reproduce.

If you reached adulthood you had to be lucky enough to live at a time when the powers that be didn't find it would be more beneficial for them for you to go kill some other people. If you survived that also you pretty much were forced to marry without having much choice in partners and dish out children a great deal of which died before reaching the age of 5.
This was the fate of the vast majority of people. Neither the males or females had much choice and female orgasm wasn't even a notion.

[mistixs]

"female orgasm wasn't even a notion" In many time periods and places, it was actually thought to be essential for reproduction.

"As a worldly man of the 17th century, you know how to get your lady pregnant: make her cum. It was a belief widely held in Elizabethan England that for conception to happen, both the man and the woman would need to orgasm. The belief that passionate loving making was most effective in producing a child can be traced back to Ancient Greek's favourite doctor, Hippocrates..
some even believed that the woman would release her own seed at the moment of orgasm."
www.gq-magazine.co.uk/.../female-orgasm-history-hysteria

"Early on, [female orgasm] was thought to be a key ingredient for a successful pregnancy. In the 13th century, the medieval belief was that a woman and man must both achieve orgasms to conceive a baby.
This gave way to the female orgasm becoming an 18th century medical treatment for a condition diagnosed as “hysteria” — sexual frustration which drove a woman insane and required pelvic massages and douching to relieve." www.medicaldaily.com/international-orgasm-day-2016-brief-history-female-orgasm-394212

[DDpsy]

That is pretty much literary BS from the privileged classes at the time. A very minor minority of the human population at that time. There were very few "worldly man" at most times in history. Evolution was driven by the great masses of uneducated peasants , serfs and slaves not by fluffy Pride and Prejudice shenanigans.

[Benedek38]

"think they both over estimate the role of sexual selection in human evolution." Thank you. I don't understand why there is an aura of mysticism around female sexuality. "For pretty much the entirety of the time humans have existed what determined the ability to mate was ones ability to reach the age where they could reproduce." That's only partially true, selection still manifested itself in the form of sociak status. But I agree, orgasms and in fact sexuality had little role in selection.

[DDpsy]

@Benedek38 Of course. I am not saying that it plays no role or even an unimportant one. I just think people tend to think that evolution is a very systematic algorithmic thing that lets you ascribe cause and effect to very specific fine traits. It is a much more complex nonlinear and chaotic process than that.

[esotericstory]

"The differences in ease of orgasm motivate the different genders to follow the most successful sexual strategy for their gender (it motivates women to seek the highest-quality mates, and motivates men to seek the highest quantity of mates [because they can orgasm with pretty much any sexual partner])."

This theory follows the 'sperm wars' theory which is not conclusive evidence, and its just a hypothesis. Second, the male orgasm exists to get the sperm as deep in the vagina as possible to give the sperms a head start and thus increase chances of reproduction. There is also evidence that indicates that the female orgasm contributes to the process of fertilizing the egg by sperm, thus also increasing chance of reproduction.