If men and women better understood each other, would it help resolve the "friend zone" debacle?

[Anonymous]

I gave up GAG for while but I'm back. Sure enough one of the top trending topics on GAG is the "friendzone". This is what I usually see:

- Guys (and some girls) asking "how do I get out of the friend zone"?
- Girls saying "its the guy's fault" if he's in the friendzone
- Girls naively saying "why can't guys just want to be friends?"
- Feminists dismissively saying "the friendzone doesn't exist" and the label "friendzone" is sexist (cough)
- Guys (and some girls) blasting other guys for being beta, pussy f*gg*ts for getting friendzoned with ZERO substance or advice. I often question the legitimacy of guys making these troll claims. I know with some real players/alpha males and the genuine ones don't feel the need to disparage other guys to boost their egos.

At the end of the day the "friendzone" debacle comes down to lack of understanding of both sexes. Women are hard wired to be relational with other women/men and to have a network to feel safe/protected. Guys are hard built to accomplish things. They are not special just for existing. They will only get respect if they are useful.

It's been said that women understand men better in dating. I believe this is partially true. Women understand male sex drive for all it's glory and horror much better than men understand female sex drive. Anatomy/hormones make this more obvious/simple.

However most women do NOT understand male ego. When a guy gets hurt/angry for being "friendzoned" it's not the lost relationship/sex opportunity he is most angry about. He's disappointed for sure but it's the fact that the woman does NOT REALLY RESPECT HIM is why he's pissed.

Most guys know they are not entitled to sex. But the friendzone from the guy's perspective is "I see you as a woman with a penis". More often than not the girl has already taken plenty of favors from the guy (free meals, free counseling, free rides, moving furniture, etc.) and 99% of the time she has zero regrets about it.

[HorrorFan]

I mean, will we ever truly understand the opposite sex?

Women need to understand that you cannot be friends with someone that has stronger feelings for you than you have for them. Things need to be on an even level.

If women want male friends, they need to communicate the fact that they are looking for a platonic friendship and never bend from that. If he wants to move on and spend his efforts trying to find a romantic partner, let him. He wanted more than friendship and there is nothing wrong with that. If he develops feelings, move on or let him move on. Don't string him along because you are too scared of 'being mean'. Always be direct and blunt about this stuff. You are playing with someone's heart.

Men need to learn to move on. You are almost never going to break through the friend zone. She put you there because she doesn't want you romantically and she's either trying to be too nice or she thinks she can build her friendships through friend zoning a bunch of guys and she doesn't quite want to give up the perks and favors that you brought to the table.

Move on.

If everyone were more honest with themselves, the friend zone wouldn't be an issue.

[Asker]

This is more along the lines of what I’m thinking. I’ve had to friend zone girls before but I never took advantage of them. In the last few years I’ve gotten in the habit of being honest early. Just a year ago I had a girl invite me over for dinner for a second date. We just talked on the first date and didn’t do anything besides hug her goodbye. When she texted me I told her I had to be honest. She was disappointed but I knew what it was like to be in her shoes. So do unto others... I have met a minority of women who are able to communicate effectively and early. I was disappointed but I respected them because they respected me enough to speak up. But I’m just fed up with this large percentage of women trying to justify their exploitive behavior.

[Avicenna]

Possibly. There also needs to be a confluence of interests.

[Asker]

Well the more women push for “equal rights” than the more guys are going push back on this. This is an unchecked privilege they have been milking for a very long time.

[Just_a_human]

The way I see it, if both parties were honest about how they feel, there wouldn't be an issues about the friendzone.
"How do I get out of the friendzone?" You obviously can't, they already told you they don't like you

[Asker]

And that’s considering they actually said something which is a completely different story. But many women (and some guys) rather be selfish cowards and string guys along for their own benefit.

[Just_a_human]

Like I said- If people were honest about their feelings, there wouldn't be any issues

[Asker]

I completely agree. Guys need to be more forward. But tbh that’s getting tougher and tougher nowadays. With all the metoo crap and radical feminism going on it makes guy’s more gun shy. The last thing a guy wants to be labeled is a “creep”. But I’m noticing more women are being forward if they like the guy. Nothing wrong with that at all. But still a large percentage of girls still expect the man to make the first move. I had to friend zone two girls myself last year by the way. After the first date I was honest with them when they texted me (carefully). Both were disappointed but they appreciated the communication.

[Just_a_human]

From what I understand, the friendzone is when someone knows that the other person likes them but the feelings aren't reciprocated. If the person isn't aware that they like them then why is that described as the friendzone, wouldn't it just be described as someone having a crush on the other person

[Asker]

That’s a fair definition. The friend zone is NOT the same thing as friendship. There are no feelings with a true friendship from both parties. At least not initially. What I don’t understand is was so many women are so confident that the guy they like will be okay with “just friends”. This goes for some guys too. I’ve friend zoned a couple of girls the WRONG way when I was much younger. I felt bad for them and kept talking to them. Even had them over but I didn’t want to get to close. I’m retrospect that was the worst thing I could have done. For the last 10 years or so I speak up early. But in my entire life I’ve only had one or two women show me the same respect. They play dumb so they have plausible deniability. I’ve met grown ass women in their 30s who still do this shit. I had to call out a 35 yr old woman a year ago for it. If you respect the person you know likes you and you don’t feel the way then you SPEAK up. Tell the person you are being honest because you respect them.

[PondyPand]

Or it's just a fact not every female will see every male as a viable mate.

[Asker]

And vice versa. But how often do you see straight men looking for “friends” only relationships with women. Close to never. It’s a different story if we become friends with a women via work, sports, school, etc. But when it comes down to it women have VERY little to offer men in a friendship but men have VERY much to offer women. Women know this and exploit it. Not always on purpose. But it’s hardwired.

[PondyPand]

Alright incel. Why am i not surprised a Anon male thinks that.

[Asker]

I’ll admit some of commentary is colored by some strong feelings I have about this issue. But I ultimately want the best for both men and women. The only way to accomplish that is by better communication.

[PondyPand]

I can agree with that last point

[Asker]

Alright for starters get away from labels and insults if you want better communication. This isn’t a republican vs democrat debate. Try reading the response I gave to @hedwiginabox

[PondyPand]

Whoa. Didn't ask for advice. on how to better communicate.

[Asker]

I give up

[PondyPand]

Might be for the best since you're randomly assuming things. 🤷

[Just_a_human]

@asker "women have VERY little to offer men in a friendship" how is it that women don't offer the same thing as men in friendships?

[Asker]

@Just_a_human alright that comment could of used more context. But here is what a man can offer a woman in a friendship: - male advice and problem solving decisiveness. - protection in public environments. - strength to move furniture and heavy objects. - protection against aggressive men - help with cars and home repair. - a driver if she’s stuck somewhere - often free food/drinks. When a man is out a bar or restaurant he’s going to feel pressure to pay for things more than girls do. Even if he knows he’s just a “friend” the eyes are on him to pay. Some women know this and exploit it - advice about other guys. Now it is excruciatingly painful for a friend zoned guy her a girl ask for advice on other guys. It’s emasculating and there is nothing funny about it. What’s worse is she often knows he likes her and she uses this to “keep a boundary”. Don’t ever go there. - a shoulder to cry on when she going through her emotional issues - a guy around to make the guy she really likes jealous. What a woman can offer. - advice on other girls. Again it’s painful for a girl to hear this if she likes the guy. But tbh I don’t see guys doing this often to friend zoned girls. - maybe some cooking - maybe some help if the guy is sick. But I remember bringing up to a girl that friendzoned me that I wasn’t feeling well. The first words out of her mouth was “don’t give it to me”. Never showed a ounce of sympathy - limited support if the guy is facing major personal issues. I had a long time galpal ghost me after I went off on the deep end about my personal struggles. Blocked me on social media and everything. I’ve know her for 12 years. - she can be used as a wingwoman to make other girls jealous. But if people ask him if they are together he will often be honest that they are “just friends”. It’s more embarrassing for a guy to say that than a girl. Especially if she’s attractive.

[Asker]

Point being is that guys are taught to be independent. That’s a good thing. I’ve had gal pals but it only works if both of us have no attraction to each other. Also in most scenarios I end up doing more for them than they do for me. They are also not as loyal as my male buddies. Women and men can be friendly but being “true” friends is not possible. Usually someone is getting used and more often than not it’s the guy.

[Just_a_human]

@asker "help with cars and home repair" a woman could help with that as well. There are many women that like cars and home improvement. "A driver if she's stuck somewhere" I'm guessing this a typo and you meant to put "he" I don't see why a woman couldn't do that "Free food/drinks" a woman could do this as well

[Just_a_human]

@asker "being true friends is not possible" I don't think that's true at all

[Asker]

@Just_a_human yes women can do all of that. But they love it when someone else does it for it for them. A friendzoned guy is the perfect man to call for those needs. But do guys call friendzoned girls to help repair their cars? I’m not saying male female friendships are valuable. They are. I once had a gal pal let me crash over her place when I drove to another state to watch the solar eclipse. Saved me tons of money. She even cooked me dinner and I thanked her over and over again. But that was a rare moment. Most of the time these female “friends” were using me for their own ends.

[Just_a_human]

"they love it when someone else does it for it for them" not all of us. There are a lot of women that like to do things themselves & to say that most women help people for their own benefit isn't fair. I'd like to think that most HUMANS are selfish by nature, not just women.

[PondyPand]

@Just_a_human holy shit asker is sexist much? wooooow. no wonder i didn't take him seriously

[Asker]

@Just_a_human yes and there are many selfIsh men as well. I’ve seen that bullshit and it’s wrong. But boys (especially western boys) have been raised to be “nice” to girls. That old school chivalry goes way back. It was definitely pounded into my head at a young age. Girls on the other hand are being taught to be princesses at a young age. I’m watching my 5 year old niece constantly get tons of frozen clothing along with Cinderella and Ariel. She’s being taught she’s “special” from a very young age and deserves to be treated as such. Obviously as a relative I’m bias that she should be treated well. But boys weren’t raised to feel “special” Ironically and disgustingly women are often turned off by men who treat them “special”. They are more attracted to challenge. That doesn’t always mean they chase assholes (although many do). But it goes against what they were taught. At the same time guys who do treat them “special” are just doing what they feel entitled to. They take it with no questions or consideration for the sacrifices the man had to make. Now I just made a huge generalization and there are plenty of exceptions. But let’s be real a woman gets a lot more out of a platonic “friendship” with a man than vice versa. In the modern world she doesn’t need his help but there is something in their DNA that accepts this because it has to do with survival.

[Just_a_human]

Obviously, it doesn't matter how anyone is raised- Male or female. As people get older, their beliefs change or may even be the complete opposite of what they were raised to believe. "women get a lot more out of a platonic “friendship” with a man than vice versa" I don't think it has anything to do with dna/survival and but everything to do with social conditioning. It really just comes down to the individual. It is possible for males and females to have a true friendship without one manipulating the other. It seems that you think it's in a woman's DNA to manipulate men and that just isn't true. Are a lot of PEOPLE scum? Yes, but don't blame it on their upbringing, blame it on the person, same thing with men and them being "nice"

[Asker]

@Just_a_human no it’s definitely in the female DNA to mate or manipulate men for protection and to be a provider. This goes back to the cavemen days where women sought mates that protect and provided for her and the baby. Nowadays that’s no longer necessary in 1st world countries. But the impulse is still there. I realize writing this GAG piece isn’t going to accomplish anything. I’m just venting. But when I was growing up nobody taught me what women REALLY want. I never heard the phrase “friendzone” until 2010 when my brother pointed out how a girl was screwing me over. I had to learn the hard way on all this crap, brutally. But really, how many straight guys do you see pursuing women “just to be friends”? If female friendships were that valuable to us than you would see more guys putting up “friends only” on dating app profiles. Guys never do that. The reason is simple. Women don’t have much to offer men in a true platonic friendship. Not to say real friendship can’t happen, it does. But it only works if there is no physical attraction on either side.

[Just_a_human]

Every time I get on this site, it reminds me of how I just don't think like you people. I disagree with everything you just said, but you also disagree with me. So we can just agree to disagree.

[Asker]

@Just_a_human that’s better than hurling insults at least. It takes effort to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.

[Asker]

But if you want to make progress you need to look at established facts. Even if you don’t like the facts you have to accept them.

[PondyPand]

Asker maybe do that yourself?

[HedwigInABox]

It's simple. If you don't want to get friendzoned, don't be friends with people who you are sexually attracted to.

[Asker]

And make a move early and risked being #metoo’d. Yes so simple.

[HedwigInABox]

Then don't date at all if you are that paranoid. What makes you think the friend can't call you a rapist too?

[Asker]

I’m not that paranoid. I’ve always been careful to make sure everything is respectful and consensual. I ask questions before taking the next step and always slow down/stop if I get any feeling she’s not wanting it especially if she verbally says anything. I was like that BEFORE the metoo movement. Unfortunately many women see that as passive and lacking confidence. The worst I’ve ever done is gone in for a kiss at the wrong moment and I got cheeked (that stung). One girl said “that was aggressive!” and I immediately apologized and didn’t try anything else. We had been on a date for two hours. Never heard from her again after that. But I’m a “creep” for trying that right? Some feminist might even call that “assault” because I lack the ability to read minds. Most men don’t pick up on “signals” the way women expect us to. We aren’t mind readers. We aren’t Mel Gibson in that old movie “what women want”. Despite all these advances in “gender equality” women still do and most likely always will expect men to make the first move. And if I want to get dates, sex, relationships... ultimately wife it’s up to me to take risks. In my late 20s I learned to be more forward with women and it worked much better most of the time. But now I’ve gotten older and our society is becoming increasingly anti male it’s getting harder and harder. But tbh I rather have a girl KNOW where I stand and reject me outright vs. me playing it safe and having her exploit me in the friend zone. I learned my lesson on that bullshit.

[Asker]

And again guys are not primarily angry because they are not getting laid when the friend zone happens. That’s part of it, but the bigger reason is they feel exploited because the girl is taking advantage of them for doing what women SAY they want. If a girl speaks up early and says she just wants to be friends I’ll respect that because she respects me enough to show me where I stand. But most women don’t do that. They rather play dumb and just assume the guy is okay with it. That’s where the disconnect and anger comes from.

[HedwigInABox]

OK this is a whole new conversation. My point is If you don't want to get friendzoned, don't be friends with people you are attracted to. It sounds reasonable to me. But maybe that's because I never really had or cared to have male friends so it's not that big of a restriction to me. But about your last reply: I know there are crazy women out there. I don't doubt that they could really harm a guy. But I don't think being friends with women first really helps the matter. If she is that crazy, she could accuse you of rape at any point. Going after your female friends just slims down your chances of getting a date cause in my opinion most women don't want to date their friends. And it's not like most women are that crazy. That's Like saying women should only date men they are friends with cause the might get raped otherwise. If you want to date you have to put at least a little bit of trust in the opposide sex. I know there are ridiculous headlines going around but If you politely ask out a girl you won't go to jail for rape. And I'm sorry you got hit for simply kissing your date. If I'm on a date with a guy and didn't want to kiss him yet or even at all I'd simply lean away and tell him to stop. But some women don't know what's sexual assault or rape themselfes and simply overreact. But to be fair, a lot of men don't either. I can't tell you how often I red on here how guys justify basically anything done to a women cause she is their girlfriend. So the crazy goes bothways.

[Asker]

Now we are getting somewhere. Thank you for being more open minded to what I’m saying. I’ve been more introspective in the last few years on how I’ve acted towards women. I also was diagnosed with ADHD last year (I’ve sorta always known I had it) and I’m finally getting treatment. I realize now that impacted how I behaved around people and why some of them got very turned off. I’ve have slept with plenty of girls (I’m tall, athletic and got blue eyes) but I’ve only been in three real long term relationships. But I’ve also was raised by an emotionally (sometimes physically) abusive controlling mother who almost always got her way with my dad. They both taught me to kiss girls asses and only in the last few years I’ve come to realize that their relationship was a horrible role model. Being the “nice” guy left me open to being exploited more than once. At the same time my mother who criticized almost everything I’ve done somehow magically thinks I would get a decent caring attractive gf/wife by acting the way she raised me. Anyway not to go down the rabbit hole on personal issues. I do confess that in my late teens and early 20s I foolishly believed that a girl “owed” me affection if I treated her well. That was wrong, selfish and foolish. BUT I do get angry when women see me treating them well as a sign of weakness they can exploit. They play dumb so they have plausible deniability. They don’t speak up when it’s obvious I want to date. They try to mooch free meals, favors, counseling, etc.

[Asker]

I’ve developed radar for that bullshit. Now if a girl I like takes more than one favor from me I shut her out. But it sucks that I always have to be on my guard since I’m a genuine nice guy. I’m always a target. Anyway the point I’m trying to make is that I think it’s only fair to call our women who “play dumb” to exploit guys. I do respect women who are honest early. It might sting and the guy might leave. But although he didn’t say thanks he is THANKFUL. She had the class to respect his feelings. But most women aren’t like that.

[Asker]

Also thanks for pointing out that “many women don’t know what is assault, rape, etc.”. The me too movement started out good by pointing out the obvious shitheads (Weinstein) But then it got expand to anything that makes a woman uncomfortable is me too worthy. That bullshit ruined everything and it’s hurting decent men who are just trying to make it

[HedwigInABox]

Being the 'nice guy' is really a set up for failure cause it makes others geedy and lazy. I had my own experiences with being to nice. Most people simply don't deseve it cause they take it for granted. Keep your energy for those who do. I mean don't be impolite or anything but just expect to get as many as you give and If they aren't willing to put in the efford, move on. I see a lot of guys complaining about women expecting the guy to pay for the date. Just pay for your part and If she complains about paying for hersef you should see it as a giant red flag.

[Asker]

Yes that’s unfortunately true. You got to understand that it was drilled into my head since I was 5 years old to always be chivalrous and pay for everything. On a first date I only do drinks at that’s it. No dinner. No expensive event tickets. Nada. I learned my lesson on that crap. But the fact that others (generally women and sometimes guys as you experienced) feel ENTITLED to exploit that has to stop.

[HedwigInABox]

The best date is going for a walk with a coffe or soemthing like that anyways in my opinion. It's less awkward and there is less pressure.

[Asker]

Yep. I agree. It also lets me know what she is really after. Just a FYI I haven’t been long term “friendzoned” in six years. I’ve gotten smarter about that. I’m just angry that girls TRY to friendzone because I’m “novel. Just a year ago I was hooking up with a girl who just got out of a broken engagement. Her fiancé cheated on her and I didn’t mind hearing her problems because we was getting in bed with me. But on the second date she brought up the friend zone and I straight up told her no. We went on three more dates and had sex two more times. Then one day I texted her and she said “hey Zach we can’t do this anymore. I know you hate the friend zone but please can we really be friends”. I told her I wanted to meet up. Turns out she met some other guy she liked better than me and wanted to get me out of the picture. While that sucks I have to accept that because her and I weren’t official. I wasn’t angry about that. But I was VERY angry she wanted to keep me around as a “friend” so she could have shoulder to cry on. THAT is what insulting. . She even had the gall to share some details about her date went. I told her to only contact me if she wanted to hook up. We kissed goodbye and I never heard from her since. She was no kid either. 31 years old. So again the end point about all this is respect, not sex. Guys are more angry about being taken advantage of vs. not getting laid. That’s something I just wish more women would take a hard look at.

[Asker]

*because I’m “nice”

[HedwigInABox]

Like I said I never really had male friends but the least person I'd want to be friends with is someone I had sex with. I don't think asking to stay friends is a terrible thing per se. (Eventhough my answear would always be no) But it's also fine to decline the request. Especially when it seems like the friendship doesn't really have much to offer to you. What I think is worse is that she mentioned the other guy.

[Asker]

I have been “long term” friendzoned several times when I was younger. That is when I stuck around with a girl 3 months or longer and she assumed I was just okay with being friends. With the exception of one incident none of these girls straight up communicated they “just want to be friends”. Instead they insulted me about talking me about other guys, referring to me as a “friend” among other people, etc. They all mooched off the free favors and attention I gave them. Now the word “friendzone” didn’t even really exist when I was teenager. Seriously nobody taught me the truth about that. I naively figured if I spent time with them and if they were single I was making progress. Turns out I was digging myself in the whole. All those girls played dumb when I made comments that I liked them too. So I learned some hard lessons. Wish I had a coach back then. But I’m just calling out women who still pull this crap. In the age of “equality” is a unchecked benefit they need to give up (goes for some guys too)

[Anonymous]

There is no friend zone debacle. There are only people who wish they had better luck in dating.

[Asker]

Nah its not that simple. I’m really trying to understand why many women are so confident that the guy will accept the friendzone. It’s just hardwired into their brains to have male “friends” for their survival. That might of been necessary thousands of years ago but not today. Men definitely don’t need platonic female friends to survive. Not say I don’t value those relationships. I have a few female friends that I respect very much. But it only works because both of us have zero interest in each other. I only think it’s fair to call out women to be more understanding of the male perspective since they consistently call US out nowadays for all of ours sins (e. g. #metoo). This is really more about equality.

[Opinion Owner]

I don't understand what female behavior you're trying to call out here. Let's say a man and woman are acquainted, he is interested in her romantically but she does not see him that way, but she is friendly and polite to him anyway. How exactly would like her to behave differently? Do you want her to pretend to be romantically interested even though she isn't? Do you want her to tell him "I'm sorry but we can no longer be friends because you like me more than I like you"? What exactly are you expecting here?

[Asker]

I want women to quit playing dumb. They know the vast majority of the time. Us guys got to make a move early to let them know where we stand (getting trickier with me too). I want women to stop being confident that they guy is okay with the friendzone. It’s completely okay to turn down someone who likes you. They aren’t entitled to anything for being nice to you. I’ve turned down girls before and probably so have you. But you have leverage over someone who is interested in you. The hormones and feelings will make them act differently. Just don’t exploit that for your own ends.

[Opinion Owner]

I'm still confused about how exactly you want women to behave differently. In the scenario I described above, what should the woman do?

[Asker]

When they know a guy likes them and they spent some time with him and they don’t feel the same way, they need to SPEAK UP about it. They need to say “I’m being honest with you because I respect you. I would like to be just friends but I’ll understand if you don’t want to talk to me anymore.” Some women have the class to do this, but most don’t. This is of course a pipe dream. Nothing is going to change anytime soon.

[Opinion Owner]

So you're problem is girls stringing guys along and pretending they are interested when they are not?

[Asker]

Yes that is exactly the problem. Women do this much more to men than vice versa. Women get much more benefits out of platonic relationships than vice versa. It’s up to us guys to figure it out which is shitty.