Do you think casual sex/hookup culture objectifies women?

[lightbulb27]

Women don't like to be thought of as objects, that's an assumption... maybe some do.

Just havin fun

But it would seem they were perceived more valuable when a dude would put interest into the girl, pursue, treat her to food and time together, maybe go down on a knee and hand her an expensive piece of rock that some poor African dug 2 miles underground. Then he assumably gave a lot to her as he worked and supported a family.

She's with me and I value her?

In that case, it seems like she was a person, had value.

In hookup culture, it's all about how she looks and what pleasure he gets from her. I'm ignoring the fact that she gets what she wants, some need of hers is being met. Maybe women see it all as ok since they have obtained work and independence?

Women used to charge for such services when they weren't "free sexually", like a wife would collect 1/2 of what he pulls in, or she would at least charge in prostitution. Now, they have become "free/cheap". It seems their value has dropped, from a male viewpoint.

Am I seeing this correctly? Women have become cheapened when they became "free" sexually".

[Obtuse]

I don't know. What I think about this in cultures like the US is that if we go by very conservative ideas like women being "gatekeepers of sex" and that the main way for a woman to keep a man around is to get married first before engaging in sexual activity, that still sounds like it's treating a woman's body and sexuality as commodities to be exchanged. It still sounds close to a form of objectification.

Another thing I observed in the US is that it's not so much the norm for men and women to befriend each other, especially from childhood. I was culture-shocked a bit when I went to the US as a tiny boy over summer and was playing with a girl and the boys said I shouldn't because girls have "cooties". What I suspect happens with this kind of segregation is that the opposite sexes minimize interactions with each other until puberty and raging hormones happen. Then the predominant interaction and mindset about each other might take on a very sexually-dominant form absent those earlier years to appreciate each other's differences as close friends.

Meanwhile, if I compare to some European and Asian countries which are quite consistently open but moderate in their views about sexuality (not a schizophrenic dichotomy between very conservative types and people who want to celebrate promiscuity), I see it as very possible in such countries for both men and women to be fairly straightforward and honest about their sexual desires for each other without objectifying each other or ruining their chances of working towards something very serious.

So I think there's a whole bundle of things going on there in places like the US which might distort and simplify the views between the opposite sexes of each other.

[lightbulb27]

yes, very interesting. now I wonder the contrast Europe to usa.

[Obtuse]

What I also think is that the dichotomy creates a mess that might reward the worst when we have people promoting abstinence before marriage on one extreme and going on slutwalks and celebrating promiscuity like it's something to be proud about on the other. I think this kind of system is rigged to make men most lacking in conscience, and perhaps least capable of respecting women's emotions and boundaries, to excel. Because if we imagine an honest guy here of conscience but isn't timid about his sexual desires, he will probably scare away most women along this spectrum except the proudly and openly promiscuous types which he might not be interested in. Meanwhile, the guy of low-conscience who is willing to do whatever it takes to get women in the bedroom might be able to sleep with women across the entire spectrum. He's the "winner" of this sort of messy system, and more and more guys will probably turn out like this copying the success of these "winners".

[Obtuse]

>> yes, very interesting. now I wonder the contrast Europe to usa. I haven't been to that too many parts of Europe for extended periods besides France, but have lots of European acquaintances and some friends here in Japan like Italians, Germans, French. And I am hardly an expert on these cultures but I find there's a more straightforward kind of approach and idea of sexuality between the sexes typically, that a woman is not going to be considered easy/slut for sleeping on a first date, that the women aren't driven as a backlash to be valued as people into trying to set superficial limits on how long they have to be with a man before they're willing to sleep with him. Such phenomena I think are largely limited to some places like the US and possibly the UK and a few other areas, but hook-ups not limited to just these areas. I really think that overall lack of friendship between men and women, and especially young boys and girls before hormones might too deeply shape and distort their ideas of each other, in places like the US might be a big contributor. Because I don't think objectification is merely a result of sexual desire or even glorifying sexuality. I think it's more the absence of the opposite sexes valuing more about each other due to limited interactions and/or communication outside the sexual context.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Obtuse I think the last paragraph of your last comment has a whole lot of truth to it. I also agreed with your entire original post, minus the first paragraph.

[Jamie05rhs]

And your entire second comment (your first comment after your original post) is extraordinarily perceptive.

[Obtuse]

@Jamie05rhs The first paragraph was kind of devil's advocate thing, but I have seen sufficiently extreme types holding even the most conservative views about marriage have questionable and oversimplistic views about women -- perhaps the minority who have very limited interactions with women and frustration that results, and perhaps a significant obsession with the virginity aspect of their wives-to-be. It's not something I consider "probable", but just "possible". I suspect any sort of views about sex, love, and marriage can lead to one that works towards an oversimplified view of women whether it's based on marriage and values or hedonism and promiscuity when the man holding such views has become sufficiently cynical or desperate -- reaching the kind of point where he thinks sex robots might substitute flesh and blood and an independent personality which won't simply bend to his every desire. At the heart of it all, I suspect, is just very limited interaction -- and especially limited interaction outside of a sexually-fueled context.

[Obtuse]

Cheers -- on the second comment, it's something I suspect might happen in any kind of societal context when there are two prevailing viewpoints that completely conflict in terms of values. In such a messy system, the one most absent in values might be the one most capable of navigating such a system. So I often think to untangle such systems and stop rewarding the most corrupt, there has to be some prevailing view among the majority that agrees on what is right and wrong -- even if it is a compromise. Personally I think the idealistic model is the conservative one that emphasizes marriage and family. Whether it does so consciously or not, I think it ultimately prioritizes the well-being of children who are the most innocent group in this scenario. But I think to work well among the masses and not a minority who stick to those values, it has to be a prevailing viewpoint. If there's a rebelling viewpoint that flies so far off the radar to the point of being proud to be promiscuous, I think that's the worst-case scenario since I think it creates this kind of schizophrenic system that largely rewards the most corrupt.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Obtuse I am one of those people. :) I'm looking for a virgin to marry. I come from the puritanical side of those two diametrically opposed groups that you mentioned. But I don't take offense at disagreements. Feel free to challenge me on anything. :) I am very much against the idea of sex robots. I don't even like the concept of sex "dolls"! "there has to be some prevailing view among the majority that agrees on what is right and wrong" I'm with you there! Condoms and consent! I totally agree with your last paragraph. Children should always come first. They must be protected and nurtured. That's why I firmly believe in contraception for those who don't want them. (Though I don't support abortion, for ethical reasons.)

[Obtuse]

@Jamie05rhs Cheers! I hope I didn't mean to imply that anywhere close to a majority of those who hold very conservative views are at risk of objectifying women. I just wanted to suggest that it's possible under any view to reducing women down to a commodity of sorts. Sometimes I even think the idealistic views working towards idolizing women are, in some sense, "objectifying" -- like the "object of affections". It's definitely a more altruistic kind but perhaps still highly simplistic. But I think it's easy and tempting to simplify with limited interactions or pain and the cynicism that results. I've even seen divorced men suffering bitter divorces who might have at first adored and respected their wives seem to have been reduced to such simplified views of the opposite sex, equating dating to an indirect form of prostitution... so cynical and devoid of nuance. So I think it's sort of a dark potential temptation in all of us, and I think the greatest safeguard is to increase the amount of non-sexual (and maybe even non-romantic) interaction with the opposite sex to promote mutual understanding... and in greater varieties to avoid skewing perspectives. Well, I think more communication and interaction is the key to solving all kinds of prejudices between two groups that have oversimplistic views of each other. It doesn't take long with the right kind of interaction to realize that people of all sorts are highly complex.

[Stockton]

I think that the biggest insult to women these days is that women are not smart enough to make their own desicions, and they need a man to tell them whats what and that women are not sexual creatures who can't make desicions regarding their sexuality

[mistixs]

I know. We should instead listen to the other men who say that engaging in casual sex is a good idea. /s

[midnightmoon05]

Yes, in my view... some dates think i was playing hard to get when I didn't want to have sex early on. Many don't think that way, they move on when they don't get sex early on becasue there are so many women too also only looking for sex. (even posted online dating)

I learned all these terms after joining GAG after my separation from my husband. From the few months after my marriage fall apart.. I learned the most scary thing. No one care about family or marriage.. when those girls kept sexting my then husband. After I told them they are breaking up a family with two little kids.. they continue to sex him and of course, of him, was new thrill and ignored what I said. At that point, he was prob. thinking those girls (who may be sluts.. etc..) were more valuable than me. I befriended a guy who is married... he said... why buy the cow when one can get free milk...

So it depends who thinks that way.
younger generation seem to accept this behavior.

There are men who don't care and accept it for whatever reason.
Older generation seems to catch on due to the down fall of the society... the selfishness of marriages, cheating is okay (cheaters always justify why they cheat), divorce is okay and hooking up is fun and liberating. I can't never get into sexual/hookup relatoinships... I won't give my body to strangers... I don't think there are many left... Sad thing... some of my married friends tell me to go and have fun... i certainly can understand what they mean.
Makes me feel so sad and alone.

Gray-sailor explains pretty well here...
Sex, sluts and relationships

[mistixs]

Objectified, yes, especially since most women don't even orgasm during casual sex, so casual sex really isn't beneficial at all. At least, it's less beneficial than simply masturbating, which results in a near-guaranteed orgasm AND lacks the risks of pregnancy and STDs.

[lightbulb27]

is that true they don't orgasm? makes sense, then what is the attraction?

[mistixs]

According to research, most women don't orgasm during casual sex, but do orgasm during sex with a romantic partner (and of course during masturbation). I don't know what the appeal of casual sex is. Maybe to feel desirable, but those women don't realize that they are already desired; they don't need to appease those men's desires, especially since they'll be receiving practically nothing in return.

[Hannahm67]

I don't believe hookup culture is good for society at all or women for that matter. Women basically said who men are pigs that only want sex and instead of trying to change that by only having sex with men if they are in a committed relationship. We basically said if they are pigs we should be also. Now with that and every woman posting half-naked pictures online men view women as objects and expect sex from them for nothing. Men should only expect sex from a woman if they are a good husband and provider. This is coming from a woman who was a part of the hookup culture.

[Ranty_Saurus_Rex]

During my “slut phase”, my main goal was figuring out my sexuality. I’m definitely 100% not straight! Some of it was fun, but most of the time I did feel used. I hardly ever got my own needs satisfied. But I don’t regret it! After all, it helped me to clear up any questions I had about myself. I was very safe as well, so I never had to worry about STDs or pregnancy scares. I used the IUD back then which is like 99.9% effective as birth control. And I made EVERYONE wear a condom before we got down & dirty. If someone made excuses, I left! That’s a red flag if they say no to using protection. GIRLS or GUYS. No glove no love!

[lightbulb27]

it's good you held control and awareness, and as well, found the positive in personal growth. That's to a degree what a lot of it is about... figuring out who we are... emotionally and otherwise. well said. Bummer didn't have your needs met, that is the problem when don't have a person committed to your best interests... e. g. relationship. Although that's not a guarantee either.

[Ranty_Saurus_Rex]

No yeah, of course. Relationships are better about respecting needs & satisfaction. But I don’t think it’s impossible to treat a one night stand better. The culture should change definitely in that sense. People need to stop being so selfish & ALWAYS use protection.

[Jamie05rhs]

@Ranty_Saurus_Rex So you let a whole lot of guys run you through... so now you think you're gay, because you never met a good man.

[Regmorus]

Not just women, people. They become both objectifiED and objectifiING. That's horrible, because it has much broader impact than just that in relationships area

[Secret6620]

Definitely vote A ☹️😔

[WhiteShoulder]

One could argue that as long as she gets to cum hard it’s all good

[lightbulb27]

From what i hear... she doesn't...

[Jamie05rhs]

@Whiteshoulder That's not even the point, though. She's still being objectified, which could lead to discrimination in the workplace.

[WhiteShoulder]

@Jamie05rhs ehhh. Maybe. On the one hand, I didn’t feel objectified when I used to hook up. On the other hand, I often felt disgusted with myself afterwards. So maybe.

[Jamie05rhs]

@WhiteShoulder Why did you feel disgusted? (It's okay; you can tell me. I won't be mean. I promise.)

[WhiteShoulder]

@Jamie05rhs it’s really complicated and I don’t wanna talk about it. Anyway, I haven’t done anything like that in over a year and a half.

[Jamie05rhs]

@WhiteShoulder I completely understand. It's okay. <3

[Avicenna]

Of course it objectifies them

[MackToday]

It's people using sex like a drug, the pleasure that is naturally in sex is now just a way to get high.

[winterfox10]

Hookup Culture cheapens and uses everyone, both men and women.

Hookup culture isn't anywhere near as prevalent as people think though. If people were actually hooking up, I'd feel more strongly about this, but they aren't.

[MannMitAntworten]

Not sure I would associate objectification to just one sex. I mean, both are essentially there scratching their mutual itch without seeking something more than just that.

[OfDeath]

Why should anyone not be objectified? Humanity needs to stop living in denial. Every individual does not have some sort of irreplaceable value. Be kind to each other but there is no need to be pretentious about everything.

[Dchrls78104]

And men and children, too.

[Gedaria]

Sadly the girls don't help them selves in this...

[navyP]

No not at all

[KrakenAttackin]

Women are more than willing participants of "hook-up" culture, which tell me women are "self-objectifying".

[Voxye]

No, we just have as much fun as men to hookup and have one night stand.
No objects there... or we take also men as objects so... xD

[WhiteShoulder]

True...

[ZSean]

Nope because plenty of women look for friends with benefits too. They aren't obejectifyin themselves.

[Jamie05rhs]

Yes, they are!

[EnglundUberAlles]

Why would it objectify women? Does it objectify men? Or are we just having a little fun before we die?

[mistixs]

Men get most of the pleasure from hookup culture. Studies show that most women typically don't even orgasm during casual sex. It'd be better to just masturbate instead.

[EnglundUberAlles]

@mistixs Why do they keep doing it then?

[Y2KxD]

Dude are you a simp?

[Anonymous]

Of course.
Hook-up culture wasn't done as a sign of respect towards "women independance". This was never made for women anyway lol.

[lightbulb27]

Why do yoi think so many women participate? Yoi then men made it?

[Opinion Owner]

This a man's world obviously

[lightbulb27]

So maybe media conditioned women into this. I thought it was womens lib... propagated by women... Im baffled

[Opinion Owner]

It was never propagated by women. If anything, men are the ones who get the more out of it.

[Jamie05rhs]

"media conditioned" Yes yes yes! INCLUDING "women's media"!

[Anonymous]

"It seems their value has dropped, from a male viewpoint."

This ^^ is very true. It's the bottom line in pretty much all of what the women's movement has done over the last 50 years. The value of women to men has dropped substantially.