If someone was irresponsibly drinking at a bar, went home with some random and got raped, who's at fault?

[DizzyDesii]

Im just watching a show and people on there think its ableist to feel bad but not as bad for the drunk who got raped (because they were irresponsibly drinking). I dont even feel ableist is the right word
#FeelFreeToList #TheStruggleIsReal

[MrOracle]

Regardless of what the law says, YOU are ultimately responsible for YOU, and for the decisions you make. When you make bad choices or take great risks, bad things can and often do happen. That doesn't excuse the criminals, of course, but, for example, if you are foolish enough to go into a known gang-controlled area, you shouldn't be surprised if you are beaten up, robbed, or even killed. If you're foolish enough to drive a brand new SUV into Mexico, you shouldn't be shocked if it is stolen - or if the local Sherriff throws you in jail on trumped up charges and will only let you go if you "voluntarily" abandon that SUV, which he'll drive from then on. If you are walking down the street alone at night in the bad parts Chicago or Detroit or San Francisco, wearing "bling" and openly counting your big roll of money, you're almost certain to be mugged. These are all very well-known risks, and if you choose to take those risks anyway, you shouldn't be shocked when you encounter criminals who do what criminals do. And, yes, it is, to some degree, your fault, because the risky behavior is very easily avoided.

This is no different. There's really only one reason to go back to a stranger's house from a bar, and that's to have sex, so if that wasn't your intention, you had no business going home with them in the first place. And if you made the poor choice because you had drunk yourself into a stupor, well, you really only have yourself to blame for that.

I'm not saying that the rapist shouldn't be prosecuted - they should - but that's not going to "unrape" the girl - nothing will. The only real protection women have from rape is AVOIDANCE - which means you have to do everything you can to prevent it from happening in the first place. That's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.

Yes, rapes still happen to women who are responsible - just like muggings and car jackings and other crimes, and just like those crimes also happen to men. You can't avoid ALL risk, and no reasonable person would say otherwise. But getting blitzed when you are out drinking alone, and then going home with some stranger almost certainly means having sex, and everyone knows it. Similarly, I've heard girls tell stories of "meeting" guys online who offer to share their alcohol or weed/drugs with her if she comes over to his (often very sketchy) place - and many of those girls went! And some were SHOCKED that the guy wanted sex in return. Some agreed to sex, some were "pressured" into it, and some managed to escape or talk him out of it, but in all cases, they took crazy high risks with a total stranger and went to a sketchy place, where no one could ever find them, to get drunk and/or high, and somehow didn't think anything bad would happen? That's just insane!

If you drove 120+ on the freeway, cut across 4 lanes at a time, ran stop signs and stop lights constantly, cut people off all the time, and essentially drove like you were playing real-life Grand Theft Auto, and then you crashed and paralyzed yourself for life, you really couldn't blame anyone but yourself - even if in this case the other person was technically at fault for some reason.

It's called PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You only get one life, and if you take foolish chances, you can mess it up PERMANENTLY. The majority of major problems like that CAN be avoided, but, yes, you have to sacrifice some irresponsible "fun" to do so. Oh well.

[CriticalDiscourse]

But this goes without assuming the individual making the "bad decision" wasn't coerced, threatened, out of their proper state of mind, pressured, etc. I think it's interesting how we can make it socially acceptable for people (especially young men) to get trashed at bars but if a woman makes the mistake of getting too drunk (even if she was pressured into doing so) that she is put down for having no responsibility. I'm not saying don't regulate yourself, I just think it's "interesting" that we can talk about rape and still persist on shifting the blame onto the person who "could have prevented it if only..." That thought tortures people.

[MrOracle]

@CriticalDiscourse I don't think it's any more "okay" for young men to get trashed at bars. Do you have any idea how many drunk drivers and/or bad auto accidents result? How many DUIs? How many "drunk in publics"? How many fights? How often they are pick-pocketed or have their stuff stolen (phones, car keys, wallets) that they left on the bar or cocktail table? Sometimes women would entice them out to the parking lot where her boyfriend/friends would beat him up and rob him. I use to have to deal with that crap all the time DJing in bars. It was utter idiocy, and in my opinion, they are just as responsible for all of that "bad" that they brought down on themselves. There's no free pass for men. But because rape is an even more personal crime, even more effort needs to be made to avoid being a victim of it. If you are walking down the street in a major US city, and a lion comes out from behind a car and attacks you, no one would blame you for being attacked, because no one could reasonably say that a lion attack was even remotely likely. But if you climb the fence at a zoo to get into the lion cage because they're cute and you want to pet one, and a lion attacks you, that's your own damn fault. You knowingly put yourself in a massively risky situation. See the difference?

[MrOracle]

A rapist is always a criminal, just as is a thief, or robber, or vandal. In an ideal world, an innocent person would have nothing to fear from criminals, because they aren't themselves criminals - but we don't live in an ideal world. We live in a world full of criminals, who are out committing crimes every day. For many, that's just how they live. If you behave like we live in an ideal, crime-free world, you will certainly become a victim of crime sooner or later - and most likely sooner. For ANYONE, being drunk in public is a risky situation, but a woman getting drunk and then going home with a stranger is a "top of the scale" danger with an almost certain bad outcome. It's foolish to pretend otherwise - especially in a society that isn't particularly interested in law-and-order.

[JuliaStyles]

@CriticalDiscourse For one thing men don't get pregnant so of course a woman is judged differently than men.

[Phoenix98]

It's both.

The drunks fault for being a fucking moron and not only being irresponsible but also potentially putting themselves in danger by getting drunk around strangers.

And the rapists fault for taking advantage of someone in that state and being a piece of shit for raping someone.

They're both at fault and both should be held responsible.

[DizzyDesii]

Yepp

[Phoenix98]

Mhmm.

[Screenwriter]

I have no idea why this is still at issue.

A rapist is a sexual predator. They look for any opportunity. AND something like 90% of rapists rape someone they know. MIght be casually, might be an acquaintance.

People should feel free to get tipsy in safe circumstances: a house party, a bar party celebrating someone's promotion, baby, bucket vacation to someplace special.

To BLAME THE VICTIM is absurd. It never has anything to do with how a woman is dressed, her age, if she's drunk or sober. It has to do with IF the rapist can get the woman in a compromising PLACE where she can't get help or fight what's happening quickly enough.

It's true, someone who's under the influence of alcohol might be an easy mark. But the rapist does not know this if they don't know the person well. They are guessing.

The rapist IS A CRIMINAL. Criminals are always the people at fault.

It is BEST if we are cautious, but NO ONE IS CAUTIOUS ALL THE TIME!!! Sometimes we relax, sometimes we forget, sometimes we are not paying attention to cues.

No one can maintain hypervigilence. IT IS ALWAYS THE RAPIST'S FAULT. ALWAYS.

It has nothing to do with the woman's reputation, occupation or anything about her. Rape is a crime of intimidation and power. The conveyence is through sexual assault of a woman's body. THAT IS CRIMINAL.

[Screenwriter]

Of course, going HOME with someone you've JUST met, is risky behavior, BUT THE WOMAN STILL IS NOT AT FAULT FOR THE RAPIST RAPING HER! I would not SUGGEST that kind of behavior for any woman. But people hook up ALL THE TIME and aren't raped. On first dates too. Only five to 10% of men are criminals. Even fewer than that are rapists. Your odds of being raped are incredibly small, despite any poor behavior or drunkenness on a woman's part. If my wallet had been stolen from my car, it would INDEED be my fault for leaving it there for a thief. But rape is not like leaving a wallet in a car. It is a complete emotional and physical violation of a person's body without their consent. It's not like they LEFT THEIR BODY IN THEIR UNLOCKED CAR with a sign on it: RAPE ME. No one EVER asks for that. It is NOT comparable.

[MrOracle]

"If my wallet had been stolen from my car, it would INDEED be my fault for leaving it there for a thief. But rape is not like leaving a wallet in a car. It is a complete emotional and physical violation of a person's body without their consent. It's not like they LEFT THEIR BODY IN THEIR UNLOCKED CAR with a sign on it: RAPE ME." To a rapist, that's EXACTLY what it's like, if you go home with a rapist blind drunk. Is the rapist a criminal? OF COURSE. That's exactly the point: even though there are relatively few of them, rapists stack every advantage in their favor, because they don't care who they hurt, and they want what they want. Hanging out in bars and targeting drunk girls alone is an easy way to find victims. No one is excusing the criminals - criminals commit crimes, and of course they should be punished whenever possible - but for a rape victim, the damage is already done, and putting a rapist in jail does little for her. The only thing that really helps is to AVOID being a victim to begin with, and THAT means taking responsibility for your own choices and actions.

[Screenwriter]

@MrOracle Only 23 percent of rapes are committed by random strangers. 77 percent are committed by friends/acquaintances and family members. So the stranger in the bar scenario in a rare occurrence. And remember, we're talking about that 10 percent of criminal men who are rapists. 23 percent of THAT minority. Though being inebriated and going home with a stranger is dicey, the likelihood of it ending up being raped is tiny. About a 1.2 percent chance using the 23 percent stats and number of criminals. It's probably an even smaller number, but I couldn't find a count of criminals who were rapists listed. A woman should be more worried about getting a DUI or killing herself or someone else with her car than she should of being raped if she goes home with a stranger. The MOST unwise issue is to become so inebriated that you make poor choices such as driving drunk or ending up in a stranger's bed who has an STD or who gets you pregnant. Those issues are far more common and far more dire.

[MrOracle]

I agree that, since the vast majority of men are not rapists, that even going home drunk with a stranger is far more often NOT going to get you raped than when it does. But, still, the odds are overwhelmingly higher for the girl who gets drunk and goes home with a stranger than for the girl who doesn't. We all understand that you can't prevent being a random victim - a guy jumping out from behind a car at night or whatever. But you CAN avoid being a victim who put themselves in an easily avoidable, risky situation. And given how profoundly destructive rape can be, avoidance is what needs to be focused on. Too many women have this idea that rape being morally wrong is somehow going to shield her - sometimes even when being around known criminals. They make carefree decisions and put themselves in danger - and usually get away with it. And then, one time, they don't get away with it, and it's devastating, but you can't go back and change it either. Sometimes you have to sacrifice some fun in order to increase your safety, when you evaluate the risks. That's called taking responsibility for your own safety.

[Ccheeto99]

Rape is inexcusable. But it’s also on us to make SMART choices! There are bad people out there, who aren’t going to care about basic morals or basic human rights. Yes it’s wrong, it should NEVER happen but it does. We all know that these are the sad facts of this cruel world and they should be considered before going out for a night of drinking. The right choices will lessen the chance that this horrible thing may happen to you.

[DizzyDesii]

I agree

[WindAtMyBack]

If she got raped she got raped. That's on the rapist.

However, you have to be responsible for your own safety. The rapist committed a crime, and her being drunk doesn't change that. But she committed stupidity and irresponsibility. She put herself in a potentially dangerous situation through her own actions.

When you have multiple conditions that must exist for something to happen, all of them are at fault.

Drinking is behind a whole lot more things than rape. As soon as someone takes their first drink, they are putting themselves or others are more risk, through their own choices and actions.

In the example, it's entirely possible that she would have gone home with the guy even if she didn't drink a drop. But her drinking, by her own choice, made her far more likely to make decisions that she would not have made otherwise. She put herself at higher risk.

If you through a green light at an intersection, it's your responsibility to look to make sure the traffic coming the other way is stopping like they should. Just because they ran a red light doesn't make you any less dead. You had the ability to prevent it, but were driving irresponsibly.

[DizzyDesii]

Right on

[justaspacerockthing]

there's many reasons why the person became that drunk, but no matter what it was it was no excuse for someone to rape them. getting drunk is never an invitation for sormthing like that. only the rapist is at fault. you do not. rape others. ever.

[Mystic_Nova]

Both, you should always beresponsible, as soon as you plan on having alcohol.

However, its wrong to take advantage of someone intoxicated.

Both are wrong. If the rapist was sober he is especially wrong.

[DizzyDesii]

I agree

[JuliaStyles]

Seeing as some women have fantasy rape kinks I would think about applying that this was one of those times. Doesn't sound like she was too concerned about her safety. I've read on the news were women leave a bar with guys and wind up dead. Some people need a slap along side the head for some sense to be knocked into them.

[DizzyDesii]

Yes thats crazy

[heyhey100]

the fact that there are people that think it is ever the victim's fault in a rape disgusts me

[DizzyDesii]

I guess the question wasn't worded at best. Its not so much that we think theyre to blame but there's that 1% at the least that they were responsible for their well being but put themselves in a risky environment. Now this isn't for all victims but for example one who got drunk alone in a bar full of men

[hellionthesagereborn]

If I see a dark alley with shady character wandering through it and I decide to go down it anyway and I get robbed who is to blame? Well clearly they commited a crime and they should be blamed and punished for it. However I saw the situation, I was aware of the risks and I took it anyway and got burned, I may not have deserved to be mugged but I actively created the situation that allowed it to happen.

So rape in the scenario your talking about i. e. a girl going to a party, with strangers, getting shit faced with said strangers, getting raped is not acceptable but she created the circumstances that allowed it to happen and so she needs to take responsibility for her irresponsibility.

Doesn't mean she deserves it, just that she was unwise and needs to make sure she doesn't act irresponsibly because while we can claim that rape should never happen all we want, that doesn't change the fact that it does and wishing the world was perfect will in no way effect the fact that it isn't.

[DizzyDesii]

Yea like she doesn't deserve it but she has to take responsibility

[magiusX26]

very good explanation

[hellionthesagereborn]

@DizzyDesii Precisely. @magiusX26 Thank you.

[OlderAndWiser]

When you bring criminal charges, the drunkenness of the victim is not a defense for the defendant. However, her drunkenness is admissible because it is relevant to whether she actually consented to sex. Maybe she was just too drunk to remember saying yes. If the jury decides she did not consent, he is responsible for what he did.

If she sues him for damages, I don't think that her drunkenness can be considered by the jury in apportioning fault for the event. But her drunkenness will be a matter discussed at trial. The jury will need to determine whether she actually did consent and simply does not recall because she was too intoxicated at the time. If she did not consent, her drunkenness will be considered in awarding damages for her pain and suffering; most juries will probably decide that someone who is too drunk to know what she is doing does not suffer as much during a rape as someone who is fully conscious and alert.

However, as @MrOracle pointed out, we are all ultimately responsible for our own personal safety and for taking reasonable precautions for our own safety. Going to a bar alone and getting drunk is irresponsible behavior for either gender and there are potential harms and consequences which can ensue. If you intentionally encounter and expose yourself to an increased risk of harm, you should be held accountable for failing to protect yourself. . . and saying this does NOT mean that we are relieving the perpetrator of responsibility for his actions.

Again, as @MrOracle said, we do not live in an ideal world. Imagine that you are at work during the summer and you get a phone call from your 14 year old daughter. "Mom, can I invite some of the neighborhood boys over to go skinny dipping in our pool this afternoon? Nothing will happen. . . really!" Do you say "Yes, of course, honey, because nothing could possibly go wrong with that plan?" Or do you say "not in a million years!" And if you told her to proceed with her plan and she was sexually assaulted, whoever did it would be criminally responsible, but you also would have failed as a parent.

SJW's, if you don't like this response, I don't care. Please don't respond to argue with me because I'm not in the mood for your nonsense and I'll just block you.

[MCheetah]

Both are, 100%.

[DizzyDesii]

Yepp

[hahahmm]

Morally: Being drunk does not remove the responsibility for placing yourself in a foolish situation. So if I sit with my feet dangling over the edge of the lion pit at the zoo and then I start drinking it's my fault if I fall in. Now since men aren't exactly lions the guy is also responsible if he KNOWS that she's unable to make decisions then he's partly at fault. But the main point is that if you're too foolish to think ahead and have someone there to protect you or to just avoid the whole situation you should take personal responsibility for that.

Legally: Basically men are always at fault not based on what happened but based on the woman's word. If a woman is sober and willingly has sex with a man and then 5 hours later or 5 years later she gets drunk, thinks he raped her and calls the cops, he's probably going to prison for 8 years. Unless there's witnesses to help him. There was the case of an army guy with a high level career who got his whole career ruined because a woman he went to school with lied. It was proven she lied but way too late to save his career.

[DizzyDesii]

Both are at fault

[lilyanony1]

The rapist. When someone is drunk they cannot consent.
The person that went home with the drunk person should have been decent enough to say actually ill kip on the sofa or next to you and make sure you're OK..

But as you hear all the time "I was drunk"
It's easy to say shoulda woulda could've
Some people are predators some make drunken mistakes...
It's a tough call but it's for the parties involved to determine what went on

[DizzyDesii]

Yea thats true. What made me more mad is that on my show the girl is accusing some of everybody because she can't remember the rapists face

[lilyanony1]

And that's normal. Trauma will have her mixed up, confusing details of one person over another. Especially if she came into contact with many people that night simply because the mind is struggling to put things in sequence. She must have been really drunk.

[DizzyDesii]

What annoyed me is that she gave birth to the rapists baby and didn't realize she was raped til a year later. Like one day she just randomly recalled being pinned down when she ran into THE ONE GUY who helped her home. He wasn't even the rapist. But Like how does it take you a year later to remember

[lilyanony1]

My mum and I watched my father die. Due to covid. I remember everything since I've been in therapy throughout his illness, to help me cope. My mum is still in shock and denial and she is struggling to recall anything that happened that day except for us rushing to get to the hospital and sitting in the room awaiting the news that they were gonna turn off his oxygen. Please be mindful that trauma can cause temporary amnesia (ptsd) look it up. It's the brains defense mechanism to protect itself. Some people can go into a catatonic state when they are that traumatised... Could have even happened because she was pregnant

[lilyanony1]

To help her bond and cope with having a baby

[DizzyDesii]

Wow thats scary. Never knew that. Any of that. Sorry for your loss

[lilyanony1]

Thank you... I hope you continue to watch the programme and I hope they give a realistic portrayal of a situation like this because the trauma doesn't stop at the end of the rape. It can sometimes last years.

[pajamasam]

What about the other people in the bar. Surely their would be some visible red flags when she left with some random and being WAY too drunk.

Why did the bartender not cut her off? Surely there was at least one sober person who could see the clues? Why did they not say something. And if they did why did people not listen?

Rapist is 100% responsible, he could have stopped himself at any time, but decided to do it anyway.

[DizzyDesii]

Right

[lightbulb27]

Thata a mess because gets into... she wanted me... vs her mind changed or dint recall.

Id like to blame the girl and the boy by some proportion decided by judge. Like 60 40. If there is history of abuse and complaints that may chg. Watched video of this scenario not long ago in UK.

Moral of story... dont get drunk.. dint drink... when will society learn? Prob most dangerous drug ever.

[DizzyDesii]

Yepp

[lightbulb27]

per your post, in an ideal world, I should be able to leave my garage open and car doors unlocked. Noone should touch my stuff, everyone should respect me. But we know this world and there are people who don't and in fact would prey upon such scenarios as "easy" bait. The problem thus is corrupt people. In a way, it's nature. So we have to be on guard all the time as well. This gets subjective fast. Is a woman walking out fo the mall after wiggling her butt in tight pants and a purse and high heels... "asking for it" when she's jumped outside and dragged off? Id say no. But is it smart to do that... prob not. Sadly, we are in the jungle and we forget where we are at. People don't understand that there are sick people out there. Drinking... shutting down ones nervous system is the stupiest idea I've ever heard of... to do so in public.

[godfatherfan]

Anyone that says anyone other then the victim is responsible should seriously have the shit kicked out of them. no joke.. What the fuck is wrong with you people?

[DizzyDesii]

Maybe some of us have been raped and know that we shouldve not put ourselves in a risky situation. Of course the rapist is mainly at fault but some victims still plays some irresponsible role

[godfatherfan]

Sorry... NO FUCKING WAY. It doesn't matter if she was naked, drunk, with a sign saying "fuck me" hanging from her neck. The victim is a victim. Nobody has the right to rape someone.

[DizzyDesii]

Course no one has the right. But the victim (which can also be a man) should not have been drinking irresponsibly. They have at least 1% of responsibility for their actions while the rapist is 99% at fault

[JackSmy]

Depends on the situation. If both are drunk, and irresponsible idiots, then it comes down to saying "NO"!
If a woman gets drunk, and chooses to go with a man, and chooses to have sex, and does not say "NO"! and does not ever say "STOP", and it is consensual, but then she regrets it, the next day! That is NOT RAPE!
If she says "NO!" and "Stop!" and he still has sex with her, that can be considered Rape!
The best choice is to never get into a place where you are vulnerable, as a woman!!
Have a friend, with you, or better, a "brother" or "cousin", like a BIGGER kind of guy, so no guys think they can take advantage of you, when buying you drinks.

[DizzyDesii]

Both were not drunk

[CriticalDiscourse]

Getting drunk, responsible or not, is not a license to commit a crime against someone.

That's like saying someone who made a bad turn in the wrong lane doesn't deserve an ambulance because they were "irresponsible."

You. Never. Have. The. Right. To. Rape. Someone. Ever. And. If. You. Think. This. Pray. It. Never. Happens. To. You.

[DizzyDesii]

Of course the rapist is at fault but people also put themselves in risky situations. I would know

[TonyV]

Need clearification first.

When you say rape do you mean like the drunk person wanted to at the time but couldnt properly consent cause they were drunk?
Or
Do you mean full on, they said no then had sex forced on them?

[DizzyDesii]

Well in the show, the person followed her home. But in general, she was too drunk to consent

[TonyV]

Well the too drunk to consent is kind of a gray area to me, how do we no they both weren't drunk and if you drink yourself into a mental state were you can't think for yourself it's not really anyone elses responsibility to look out for you, while you can't. But in general it is wrong and I would never want to take a stumbling, slurring, drunk home. In the show, stalking her home, that's just rape, she didn't even say a false consenting yes in a drunken stupor.

[raven6933]

It does not matter, no one has the right to rape anyone for any reason. There are entirely too many hoes to sucum anyone to rape.

[DizzyDesii]

Yea i agree

[Jjpayne]

The rapist because they were the one with a sound mind that chose to do it. Now if both were drunk 🤔🧐 that's tough... Because even the rapist now is not fully thinking clearly... There is levels of intoxication but what if both are equally drunk, both have sex and passout on each other... But I will say this, If it was blantantly non consentual than that would be on the rapist for a bad choice. But I'd say even then, I'd charge them with misconduct and forcing them to into a drug program where they could not leave and even flunk and kick them out of school if it was in college. I think the punishment should be more on their ability to think at the time of the incident but the one being raped will never be at fault in my eyes

[DizzyDesii]

The rapist wasn't drunk

[Jjpayne]

Then it's totally on the rapist then

[ShortCircuit]

By rape, do you mean physically, forcefully penetrated without consent, or do you mean it was deemed raped post hoc because any consent given while intoxicated is supposedly void?

[DizzyDesii]

He literally raped her

[ShortCircuit]

So I'm assuming the former then. In that case, I would say that only the rapist is at fault. Now, I would agree that the victim made stupid decisions, and yes, I feel somewhat less sympathy for a victim who made stupid decisions than I do for a victim who did everything right and was still victimized--but that's a separate matter. When it comes to the actual rape, the only one at fault is the rapist. If someone makes stupid decisions that doesn't warrant or earn being raped.

[SjE78]

the rapist, as the one who went home with them is being a little bit naive but i'm pretty sure that unless they are into some extreme kinks she wouldn't be asking to be raped... the rapist however knew beforehand what they were gonna do, it is premeditated and cold, calculated... if they cannot do things right they shouldn't go to force someone to have sex, simples