Very true. I’d just say a fertilized egg is “human” - just not a person. The idea of personhood or when life becomes a person is the ultimate question. But other than that, totally agreed.
@Screenwriter - We'll head this down the line, one paragraph after the next.Women die these days from abortion in the clinics. No one forces a woman to get an abortion, those choices might be influenced by others, but in the end she decides to walk through or out the doors of the abortion clinic.If a fertilized egg is NOT human, what are they? From the moment of conception the unborn are whole, distinct human beings; someone who has never existed previously in the world and will never exist again in the future of the world.Where am I using religion? Sure I could use religion but science proves the case for life, that is all I need.If a woman decides to partake in an action known to create life, she freely decides to partake in the potential risks. Most choices involve a risk, sex is just one choice that has known risks.All people deserve choices and unborn babies are people too.Where is your evidence to support this claim, number one and two, there are lots of places where a woman in a crisis pregnancy can get help so you are wrong on this point.Again, she doesn't know what can and won't happen. This still doesn't allow her to kill her unborn child.Know why there are so many children in the adoption system? Lack of fathers. Something like ninety percent are there because the father is absent. Killing the child just covers the problem up.Do you know I agree with you? If a couple can't handle the responsibility of raising a child, then don't partake in the activity known to create new life. This "right" to self pleasure and gratification does NOT exist in the American Constitution, no where; it's certainly not consequence free! If it does, please illuminate me.
@KneeDragger Thank you!
Excellent point. `i like it and will use it.
Unborn fetuses and embryos are not people. They are human, but not viable if removed from the body of the mother. As I said, when there are aquariums that can substitute for wombs and take early term fetuses/embryos to term, and someone is there to adopt them, maybe there will be fewer abortions.Also when there's better birth control. `i don't think there's a way in the world to stop people having sex. You make it sounds selfish. Again, this is religiosity horning in. Does anyone call eating "selfish" because it's a pleasure? Or taking a luxurious bath? There are many pleasures that engage the senses and give a person a feeling of exhilaration. Sex is the biggest. BUT it's the only one that can create another person! Whoops. But a child should never be a punishment for having sex. This is the old school make your bed and lie in it idea. If birth control fails, choice should be thought through. Pregnancy might be the accidental consequence of failed birth control, but childbirth does not have to follow that. Sex can be as casual as a game of volleyball; enjoyable. Or as serious as a lifetime commitment; say marriage. A CHILD is a lifetime commitment. Seems you're saying if you don't want children, don't have sex. That is the only way to assurdedly not get pregnant. This is not practical and very few people will do it. So, morning after pills and abortion need to be available. Sometimes very reliable birth control fails. If someone is being responsible and the birth control fails should they be punished into parenthood? This is my salient point. Parenthood should be a choice, not a forced proposition. If the parent is not ready for whatever reason, they should be able to choose.
@Screenwriter - Again, down the line, one after the other. - Unborn fetuses, or embryos are stages of development. You say they aren't people, so what are they then? The only four traits that change is their size, level of awareness, environment and their degree of dependancy. Those four traits change for you, every single day, throughout every day. Hold your breath; you just changed size. Every night you change your level of awareness. Move four inches over; you just changed your environment. You changed your dependency from when you were ten to now, did you become less or more of a person? - ALL birth control (except the barriers) cause the fetus to abort, before they implant on the uterine wall. - I never have. and never will use religion to defend the case for life; I don't need to anyway. If a person wants to partake in an adult activity, they should be held responsible for the natural consequences of the activity. If you are fourteen and drive a car, are you not held responsible for the action (even if you do't wreck the car)? - Please understand the science of birth-control; what it does and the negative consequences, before you advocate the use of the artificial hormones. All birth-control causes the abortion of a fetus and all birth-control fails; without exception. Does that tell you anything? - If you think sex is as casual as a volley-ball game you are incredibly young, immature and naive. The result of sex is children, nothing will ever change that. - Seriously, if you don't want to have children then don't have sex. You must have zero self control if you have to have sex. Everything in life has consequences; sometimes good, sometimes bad, sometimes it's in the middle. Sex is an action with consequences; why is that so hard to understand? - If this is your point - Parenthood IS an easy choice. If you want to be a parent, have lots of sex with your wife/husband. If you don't want to be a parent, avoid sex.
@KneeDragger There is a lack of fathers because fathers get trashed in the Family Courts.
@msc545 - If the fathers were to stand up from the beginning of the relationship, it wouldn't be a problem. Either way, you cannot justify the slaughter of a baby (abortion) "because fathers get trashed in the Family Courts."
I'm just glad I never had to deal with the abortion thing. My two girls were both planned. Even though my twin boys were an accident I was actually very happy about having them (after I got over the initial shock that is).
Right, agreed. Reading about it, doctors are pretty strict on late term abortions. But yes the ultimate question is when the fetus becomes a “person”. It seems stupid to think in an instant a newly fertilized egg is a person. But certainly 8 months later it’s surely a person.
The unborn are whole, complete, human, beings at the moment of conception; science is abundantly clear on this. The unborn might change their size, level of awareness, environment and degree of dependency; but so does every single human that has every existed. In addition all birth-control (except barriers) is abortifacient, without exception. Hell, it's in the name BIRTH-CONTROL, the hormones control birth.
@OddBeMe - "Right, agreed. Reading about it, doctors are pretty strict on late term abortions. But yes the ultimate question is when the fetus becomes a “person”. It seems stupid to think in an instant a newly fertilized egg is a person. But certainly 8 months later it’s surely a person." You really must not understand the biology of pregnancy and abortion. If a "newly fertilized egg" isn't a person, when do they become people? Does a six inch channel down the birth canal imbue humanity? You surely can't have your cake and eat it too.
If you ignore ballDragger it gets funnier.
Glad to see someone of the same mind as I. Respect.
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@jasco - You are right, the father deserves the right and responsibility of the child. Also, the status quo is not a reason to stop change. Imagine where we would be as a nation if things never changed from the original founding of our country and world.
@KneeDragger Some things shouldn't have change and others should have change sooner but it is what it is
Why do fucks keep couching this as slut consequences?
Because in the real world, with certain actions comes potential consequences. Therefore responsibility is required. What part of that, is so hard to understand?
That you care more for fetuses than children who are already born. 1 in 5 are starving fyi
Who said I don't care about children already born? That's you're own assumption.
Since the political will on the right is to no feed “born children” but legally harass women with fetuses, we know where the GOP lies.
''no feed'' born children? lol What are you even talking about? And who said I support republicans?
anti-abortionists are ardent supporters
Ye, we'll I'm not a republican. Nor would it even matter if I was.
Or if the woman changes her mind. Her body.
Have you ever spent nine months with a pregnant lady? Are you telling me she never changes her mind? Abortion is always irreversible because a dead child is the result.
She can get pregnant again.
@Hawner - "She can get pregnant again." Only after she has the first child killed. How is slaughtering a defenseless child ever acceptable?
When it endangers its mother in any way, shape or form. If you had an open mind and thought about it, you would find there are several situations like that.Let me remind you that in the very first post I clearly said that first all other options should be considered, that abortion should be the last resort. You are acting like it is the very first thing on my mind when I hear "pregnant", and I assure you it is not.By the way, calling "defenseless child" something that is at the time nothing more than a conglomerate of cells, it's a little extreme on your part.
@Hawner - How many women do you think are in danger of losing their lives, if they don't abort their child? Of that tiny, minuscule number how often are the doctors wrong? Abortion number is the world, since 1973 is at seven to eight BILLION (and that number is from 2012) and it was the lowest possible too! Doctors are nothing but people, like other people, they can be wrong about something. My point is that life is a gift and we should treat it as such.
@KneeDragger How many girls still in school age have gotten pregnant (rape, broken condom, stupidity...) and had to stop their studies to give birth to the child, then take care of it, not being able to do it properly because she had no studies to get a proper job, so neither she nor the kid get a happy life?It doesn't matter how small the percentage is, abortion should remain an option to avoid situations like that.I'll say for the last time: I don't defend abortion as the first option when someone gets pregnant, but as a last resort. If you oh so defend life, defend the life of the mother as well, who will be screwed for life is she has to take care of a child she didn't want.
@Hawner - If she doesn't want to have a child "before she/they were ready," then avoid the activity known to create human life. There were girls in high school, college and even after college who stepped up and raised the baby they helped to create. Was it easy? Surely not, but life is never about the easy path.
So, basically, never have sex unless you want a baby? Is that really your response? Not even with your husband in a stable relationship? Not even if you are economically fine? Not even if you have help from your family available? Not in any situation where your future would not be screwed up and could, at the very least, give the baby for adoption and then forget about it? Wow. I did not expect such an against-life attitude from someone who says is a pro-life. Even people who actually defend abortion as the first solution if you don't want the baby and have no actual regard for life would be in awe.Well, of course there are women who had a child while studying and managed. I never said it was impossible. They were able to choose options that allowed them to do that! They had help in some way! Be it some money, family that helped, the father was there taking care of the child as well, she maybe got a light job that allowed her to pay for what the baby needed but didn't interfere in her studies... There are thankfully cases where they could choose to have the baby and thrive. In those cases I say "excellent! Enjoy your baby and be happy!".But what about those cases where such choices are not available? Your family cannot help, you have no income, any work you take to pay for the baby would imply leaving your studies, losing any chance at having an actual career and being chained to a menial job that you don't love because you don't have the studies for anything else; alone because the father would not take care of the kid... What about all those girls that have no chance at life because YOU don't want them to have the choice of having the baby at a more appropriate time, when they are ready? Screw them?
@Hawner - My wife and I have sex all the time and we have children only when we want to. There is about a four-day window to get pregnant, so that leaves most days open to sex without procreation. It really is just simple biology, nothing more. Then a few questions later, you go off a cliff about things I never even came close to mentioning.There are multiple ladies I know who got pregnant in college, had the baby and raised the children by themselves, plus they even completed their degrees, a few even had multiple degrees. Sure, it was hard, but they owned their choices and they wouldn’t trade the challenge for an easier path where they didn’t have their children. You talk about help, but guess what? All the colleges I know of have help and all during a crisis pregnancy, everywhere but the tiniest cities have help for young mothers.If such a situation arises where a lady gets pregnant and she just can’t afford to raise a child, she can give that child up for adoption. She can even have food and medical bills paid for by the adoptive family. If she wants, she can still stay in contact with the family as they raise the child.Why chose an option to kill a child when there are other options that DON’T kill tiny, young, defenseless babies?If a young lady decides to act like a woman, why shouldn’t she be treated like a woman. Provide another example in all of human existence where you can erase the consequence of an action, like abortion wipes away the natural consequence of pregnancy. Hint; you won’t find another one. Nothing and no one is forcing a couple to partake in an activity where everyone knows the normal result of said action. Have you eve heard of a couple who had sex, they got pregnant and they were “How in the hell did that happen? It was completely out of left field.” People aren’t dumb, despite the claim of others.
Think about young kids who have sex in their teens. They are the most common people who have abortions because they ARE irresponsible because they ARE young and think it'll never happen to them. After THAT experience, they'll never take birth control for granted. There's few procedures more humbling and disturbing than abortion. You grow up quick when you have that experience.
@Screenwriter just cause you're young, doesn't mean you're stupid and have no sense of responsibility. i think the issue that you scratched there is a horrible deficientcy in sexual education in our society. children that are educated and raised correctly don't have such issues.
I think youth IS the delimiter. I know I did some extremely foolish things once or twice in my early 20s that ended up with me getting physically hurt. I took a chance at unprotected sex once too. And it ONLY TAKES ONCE. It from that thinking that nothing bad can happen to you because nothing bad HAS happened.
@Screenwriter think back of that thing critically: would you have comitted that mistake, if you had been properly educated about the possible outcomes of that act (whatever it was)? or was it a case where you were just told "not to do it" without properly understanding why?
I knew PRECISELY what the risks of getting pregnant with unprotected sex were and I still almost did it... the GUY said, we shouldn't. He was older and had some sense. Horny late teen in college. That scenario is repeated millions of times daily around the world. Some have more or less education. Common sense goes right out the window when people are making out and getting naked etc... At that moment I had that "magical thinking" that nothing bad would happen. At 25, that magical thinking was no longer present in my brain. It's maturity. Nothing about who told me I shouldn't even entered the picture. It's the young, dumb full of... rhyme. Women are just as dumb.
It´s automatic because the website wants to have MHO´s for every question answered I think. So if you don´t choose them, they do it for you.
But guys will never have this responsibility because no baby grows in their bodies. It's just a biological fact. And it's unfortunate. If a man OR a woman got pregnant in some kind of biological lottery, MEN WOULD BE TERRIFIED and there'd be birth control for them too and they'd use it.It isn't like that, so they don't do it. And there's the worst of the worst, those who abscond completely. Those who disappear. And the bottom of the barrel, fathers who walk out on their LIVING and present children. Secondarily, fathers who don't pay child support after divorce. Or fathers who were never married and never pay child support to the women they leave behind for other women and other children.This is so common as to be ordinary. So women choosing abortion ARE being responsible in light of the circumstances, like the above, that they face. Children need two, dedicated parents. If they don't have that, it's a poor circimstance to grow up in. If a woman chooses not to have a child in that circumstance, I support her choice of not living in a fantasy of MAYBE it'll come out right even if I have no job, no education, haven't finished high school and have nowhere to live cause my parents have thrown me out.
“She chooses to get pregnant”You fucks can’t stop slut shaming.
Are you insane? A woman can choose to get pregnant or not to get pregnant. We have birth control we have many many different types of birth control, some less then a dollar, so their is literally no excuse at all to get pregnant. That isn't slut shaming, that is reality.
There is no 100% control over the reproductive system. Birth control methods FAIL all the time. Some of the best fail because of poor usage. A woman forgets her low dose birth control pill one day and forgets she forgot it and forgets to use backup birth control that day, has sex and becomes pregnant. Human error is the complete and total factor in birth control failure.And this gentleman is against abortion, so he is suggesting that we no longer have it because of his stance about an egg being a person and removing an egg or an embryo or fetus that cannot survive outside the womb is murder. So if abortion is made illegal certain women WOULD be forced to continue pregnancies they did not want to continue.You're too young to recall those bad old days. I know about them. And women risked their lives and reputations getting illegal abortions.
So women were literally being FORCED to continue pregnancies. And back then, there were also very few reliable birth control methods either. There were no birth control pills...
Equating a bean sized fetus to a child is the only way you guys argue about this.
OddBeMe - Take a breath for me; you just changed you size. Oh I forgot, you are the same size as when you were five too. We all change our size, throughout our entire lives. Do you just kill those who are inconvenient and cannot defend themselves?
@KneeDragger Sperm is people too then? With ole factory senses. No masturbation!
@OddBeMe if an egg is fertilised by the sperm in the womb I consider that as a fetus, a fetus which will be born into a human being. noy just cells. If you people believe that the parents don't have any power to take decisions for the child so you support that he wants to become a tranny which is ruining society because the goal of being a human is to reproduce. Children are necessary and everyone needs to start having them otherwise a lot of people would go extinct especially the European race by mixing with other races and just dying out. The individual characteristics preserved for 1000's of years would be gone because some people want to think as individuals but not as a society.
Regardless of population rates... a citizen’s control over their own body is paramount. Fetus or not.
@OddBeMe - "Sperm is people too then? With ole factory senses. No masturbation!" How many chromosomes in a sperm cell? 23 chromosomes is not a person.
@OddBeMe - "Regardless of population rates... a citizen’s control over their own body is paramount. Fetus or not." Don't commit murder and no one ever takes control over anyones body. If a woman gets pregnant, does she commit the abortion by herself? Nope; she depends on the body of another person to slaughter her child.
Or if she just doesn’t want it.
What about the life of the child though? It has no value?
Even in the cases of rape, incest or the risk of the mothers life; the child is alive at the moment of conception.
Why do you get to label a fetus a child? How about sperm or an egg? Where’s the line?
A better question is, where do YOU draw the line? Democrats even promoting killing babies after birth now.
@KneeDragger I agree
Killing babies after birth? Some Q anon conspiracy you’re into?Of course Dems aren’t doing that moron.
That is their intent. Look up the governor of Virginia’s comments about “making the baby comfortable” after birth... You Remmebr him? The democrat that used to dress up in black face but democrats elected him anyway?
Liberal just don't understand consequences of not having enough kids who will pay for their pension social benefit or who will become doctor or scientist or engineer and who will defend their country in case of invasion they're not practical
but country with high fertility rate like Nigeria where they can't even feed their kids should work on lowering fertility rate or everyone will starve there. they already do so just do what is best for your society
When the following is said - "but country with high fertility rate like Nigeria where they can't even feed their kids should work on lowering fertility rate or everyone will starve there. they already do so just do what is best for your society" This message is very, very presumptuous because you are telling people what to do, based on only your experiences and opinions. If a couple wants to have children, that is their choice. No one has the right to tell others what to do, unless that action is the killing and/or the taking of the freedoms away from others. No one has the "right" to kill another person, unless that person is directly threatening the life of another human. If someone comes to take my life, the life of my family or an innocent person I have a duty to defend those lives around me. By no means do I want to take another life, but you better not try and take away mine because I will defend myself and innocent lives of my neighbor.
@KneeDragger okay then what about when their country will get invaded? when their won't be enough people who can pay for your pension not any scientists or engineer so not much development. after invasion women in that country will be raped and people will be killed they will live like slave. and economy and social benifit will collapse without innovation and work force they are harming society especially those countries which can get invaded any time like South Korea. but of course not see what it means in long term
@KneeDragger in same sense I believe people in countries like Nigeria especially poor Nigerian should not have more than 2 on average at least. and use these resources for developing country so people won't starve. Doing our best is most important for society
@KneeDragger I mean anyone is not harming by not paying taxes or escaping while country is in war and they were drafted but those things are harmful for society not having kids in a country which need kids is selfish same way having many kids in a country which have over population problem is selfish.
Wow, can you please tell me which stocks to invest in because you can predict the future really well? Wait, maybe not because no one knows the future and you think killing children in the womb is acceptable. Personally, I won't allow that future to exist.
@KneeDragger okay I am sure that it is better for South Korea to get invaded by china or North Korea and live like slave you are not even from Asia. You won't understand situation and what china is doing America is destroying itself and world War 3 will happen in 30 40s or 50s. you can't be calm when china and North Korea are your neighbour.
@KneeDragger do you know how scared I am? I don't want to get raped or become slave or don't get social benifit or live in bad economy and these things can happen after invasion and economy collapsing
@KneeDragger I don't follow wall Street etc sorry everyone is not American
@Opinion Owner - "in same sense I believe people in countries like Nigeria especially poor Nigerian should not have more than 2 on average at least. and use these resources for developing country so people won't starve. Doing our best is most important for society" Have you been to Nigeria because you sure do like to use them as an example. How about Chile? Have you ever seen a family grow-up in the dump? I have been to Chile and if you go to Santiago that is what you will see, and they are a first-world country. But please go to Chile and you can then determine someones lack of human dignity because they are poor and they are created in those environments. Humans are blessed with unique and special characteristics that define how special they are, those traits are never defined by their location.
@KneeDragger also why I think abortion in country with high Fertility is okay ever have visited Africa? do you know how many people don't properly eat or get educated there? For example if one couple can only afford one kid but still end up having 9 kids they can't afford do you know what will happen? They will starve don't get proper education. Not getting born is better than living that life. abortion is not bad in that case
@Opinion Owner - "I mean anyone is not harming by not paying taxes or escaping while country is in war and they were drafted but those things are harmful for society not having kids in a country which need kids is selfish same way having many kids in a country which have over population problem is selfish." Please explain why you know so much about the problems of others, in addition on how to solve these "problems?"
@KneeDragger because I am scared and paranoid about future. just observing society and know what is gonna happen in future .
@Opinion Owner - "okay I am sure that it is better for South Korea to get invaded by china or North Korea and live like slave you are not even from Asia. You won't understand situation and what china is doing America is destroying itself and world War 3 will happen in 30 40s or 50s. you can't be calm when china and North Korea are your neighbour." There is nothing I can do about the world, other than influence those in my world; the ones I can change. Wars happen because of selfish behaviors, i. e. Satan. Worry about stopping him because that is something you can change and influence.
@Opinion Owner - "do you know how scared I am? I don't want to get raped or become slave or don't get social benifit or live in bad economy and these things can happen after invasion and economy collapsing" The only thing I can change is the person I look at in the mirror. The possibility of World War III scares me too. But if you look at the world since the legalization of abortion in America (1973) you will see that as each country accepted abortion, they continued to devolve and begin collapsing. Abortion is the destruction and slaughter of an innocent child. No person can call themselves "a moral and upright human being" when that person advocates for the eradication of someone else who has done nothing other than exist.
@KneeDragger I don't believe in morals I just consider myself practical
@KneeDragger I just don't see how starving and not getting proper education is better than not getting born
@Opinion Owner - "also why I think abortion in country with high Fertility is okay ever have visited Africa? do you know how many people don't properly eat or get educated there? For example if one couple can only afford one kid but still end up having 9 kids they can't afford do you know what will happen? They will starve don't get proper education. Not getting born is better than living that life. abortion is not bad in that case" A close friend of mine, his son went to Africa to help after he graduated college. He met a native from Africa and they are now married. However they can't have biological children because of the brutal rapes she experienced by the Muslim hordes when she was a young lady. Now as horribly awful her experiences were, are you suggesting she shouldn't exist because she was a child born twenty years ago in Africa? My friends son loves his wife, she loves him and I promise she would rather be alive than be aborted.
@KneeDragger she won't have suffer rape and poverty if she was not born in Africa. i don't think I can live that kind of life and there are some rich and middle class even in Africa.
@Opinion Owner - "I don't believe in morals I just consider myself practical" Wether you believe in morals or not doesn't change the fact you still have morals, even if they were only "practical," they will always be morals. Or maybe you just need to develop those morals more. By the way, that is not intended as an attack in anyway; we are just limited to this medium.
@Opinion owner - "she won't have suffer rape and poverty if she was not born in Africa. i don't think I can live that kind of life and there are some rich and middle class even in Africa." Why is it you get to decide who lives and who dies? Who gave you the right to determine what another persons life is worth living? You sure do speak of a very entitled position if you can tell another human, who is happy, they had a bad experience in life and therefore they should not exist. Please, please reflect on your position before you actually tell that to another person's face.
@KneeDragger if you look at the world since the legalization of abortion... you will see that as each country accepted abortion, they continued to devolve and begin collapsing. Abortion is the destruction and slaughter of an innocent CHILD.. No person can call themselves "a moral and upright human being" when that person advocates for the eradication of someone else who has done nothing other than exist."If the existence of a POTENTIAL child threatens the existence of children already here, or a person's ability to take care of themselves and others already living then abortion IS rational AND moral. Abortion has nothing to do with any country "devolving and collapsing."You want to blame the Trump era on abortion? Talk about devolving and collapsing. You want to blame white supremacy on abortion? You want to blame racism on abortion? None of these societal problems have anything to do with abortioni!! We have to agree to disagree because your argument is neither logical or rational. Regards anyway.
@Screenwriter – There is no potential human life when they are unborn. The unborn are just that, an unborn human life. The word “unborn” is being used as an adjective, to describe the noun. The unborn possess the same traits as they will the remainder of their lives, except their size, level of awareness, environment and their degree of dependency. Those four traits are the ONLY traits that change when comparing the unborn and us, and they will always continue to change for the remainder of our lives.Abortion has always been about taking the life of an innocent child who is doing nothing other than existing and being undesirable. Please inform me the justification to kill a born child versus the unborn.Then you talk about my position where a country devolves and collapses after accepting abortion, yet you never provide any evidence to refute my claim yet support your position. You just want to kill babies and have the government fund the action.You have yet to prove anything, not a single thing, that is at least regarding why abortion should be allowed.
@KneeDragger What about masturbation? That's millions of potential lifeforms going into your sock every night.
@KneeDragger The only justification is the needs of the woman needing the abortion and her family and economic situation. Abortion is a form of birth control that is a last ditch method. Just as the morning after pill is an abortifacent. It eliminates a fertilized egg. And birth control pills either prevent the release of an egg or prevent the implantation of fertilized eggs. So those forms of birth control are sometimes abortifacents. The only barrier methods are condoms and spermicides. However, BOTH are unreliable: in common use: 20 to 30 percent failure is common because of improper use and timing of sex. Humans make human errors.
The oocyte, zygote, embryo or fetus have all the genetic information to become a human child. But there is no oocyte, zygote or embryo that can live outside a woman's uterus. Abortion is a drastic, ugly medical procedure. If I had had one, I'd be sad to have had it done. It's only right or wrong for the woman in question.Unless YOU want to personally care for all the children who'll be born and live for the 18 years after birth of ALL the women who won't have access to abortions, who don't choose to be mothers, who accidentally get pregnant at the wrong time, don't bring up this moral/religious argument about the life, the killing of a human.If they were meant to be, they would not be aborted by the women in question. It is about the WOMAN's choice. not yours. HER morality, not yours. This is an individual decision SHE will have to live with NOT YOU.I was lucky. My birth control did not fail and I had the child I wanted when I was ready. If it had happened otherwise, I would have had an abortion. It is not something 99 percent of women do lightly. It would not be something I would've done lightly.Who are you saving this child for? Yourself? Why push your morals on someone you do not know? Who you do not know the circumstances of? Who YOU will NOT HELP through her pregnancy and through the next 18 years of her child's life? Will you marry her and support her child?
And it's NOT only about 18 years either. Your child is yours from their cradle to YOUR GRAVE. That is a giant responsibility. That is why women choose abortions. It's why I would've.Your solution is to not have sex. Well that is simply not going to happen with people. I'm a practical person. All we can do is have sex education in schools for children before puberty. I got it at the Catholic school I attended. By the time I was at puberty, I knew I was going to choose to use birth control when I finally had sex. A large minority of children get NO sex education and use NO birth control and these accidents happen when no one is prepared emotionally, financially or educationally to have a child.Children are blessings when they come at the right time. When there's a couple ready to raise that child. When people are excited and ready to share their love and care; when they have decent jobs and homes and the time and energy to devote to rearing a child.The BIG PICTURE has to be considered, not just the small oocyte. When the day comes that every fertilized egg can be given to people who want a child but can't have one, and can be grown in an aquarium, there might be no need for abortion. That day is not here and won't be here until sometime past 2100, is my best guess.
@OddBeMe - "What about masturbation? That's millions of potential lifeforms going into your sock every night." How many chromosomes in each sperm cell? 23; so NOT "millions of potential lifeforms." Didn't you have basic biology in high school?
@Screenwriter – The family and economic situations will always change, especially over a nine-month period. Are you suggesting a mother and/or father can justifiably kill a born child because their family or economic situation takes a turn for the worse?For the umpteenth time I’ll repeat myself; the ONLY difference between you, I and the unborn are - size, level of awareness, environment, and degree of dependency. Those four traits describe the differences between you and myself but also the differences between us and the unborn. Obviously, you, myself and the unborn are all different people and I am referring to the humanity that we all share. Prove to me the unborn are NOT human and I’ll spend the rest of my life arguing the case for abortion.If you cannot prove the unborn lack the traits of humanity, you can never justify the killing of an innocent person. History is rife with examples of when killing innocent people is wrong.
@Screenwriter - This apparently needs to posts for my reply.Your list from the oocyte to the fetus are just some of the stages of human development. The DNA of the human never changes. You accurately describe abortion, yet you support the act? The reason why I hate and argue against abortion is because I am defending the unborn.If you lived in a neighborhood and someone was going through the area and killing people at random; would you sit by and just wait for them to come through your front door? Would you even try stop them? If I lived in a situation like that, I would do everything in my power to stop that person for all the wrong they are committing. The only major difference with my example and the unborn, the unborn can’t defend themselves and their screams aren’t heard.Why should I be responsible for the actions of others? Sure, I help my friends and neighbors but I’m not going to be culpable for another person’s immaturity; I am taking care of my family and you want me to raise other people’s children too? Do you realize how preposterous that would get, let alone how nonsensical the idea is?
@Screenwriter - Again, you bring morality to the table, but you need to complete the thought. If another country attacks America, should we just sit back and say “Well, it was their choice, and I don’t think we should object others to our morality.” Take it to the local level, or even the family level. Are you saying we should never have objected to the atrocities committed by Germany in World War II? Afterall, it was the Germans who killed millions of people all in the name of purifying the human race. Or we can take it to our country’s history and slavery. Apply your thinking to other times of history and simply apply the same logic. Does any part of history change for the better?The body of a woman still releases an egg almost every month, even if she is on birth-control. If a sperm cell is present and fertilizes the egg, birth-control simply stops the ovum from attaching to the uterine wall, from ten days to two weeks after fertilization. The moment a sperm cell enters the egg, a new person is formed. Again, this is simple high school biology.Your last paragraph is addressed in my responses above. As a human person, I care about all people. As for marrying another lady, sorry, I am already happily married and have been for nearly a decade. And you know what, being married has strengthened my position in defending all human life.
@Screenwriter - Your “cradle to YOUR GRAVE” is funny. Sure, I raised my kids and taught them to have morals but as they become adults, I am not responsible for their actions. So, if my child is thirty and kills a family because of a DUI, I’m somehow responsible? Um, OK, if you say so. Sure, the choice to drive drunk was immature and dumb, but they made their own choice. Am I wrong?Please tell your future wife after you get married that you cannot control yourself and you are going to have sex with whomever you can/want because sex is something that is going to happen. You’re not responsible, because after all you are practical.Want to know when most abortions happen? When kids are taught “safe sex.” If a government/country teaches abstinence only there are some teen pregnancies, but they don’t come close to comparing to abstinence only. You know why? Because ALL birth-control fails, without exception. Catholic schools failed in many, many areas; birth-control is just one area. I’ll gladly wager ten-thousand dollars you are NOT a practicing Catholic now who follows the teaching of the Faith. Want to take the bet?All children are blessings, no matter the time, place or anything. All children are creatures of GOD, created in His likeness and image. Your lack to see and understand that is why I don’t use religion to defend the unborn, all I need is logic, science and/or reason.Your “aquarium” argument is childish and hilarious. Teach people to be responsible and every part of life gets better in the future. Even Justice Black who wrote the majority argument for Planned Parenthood v. Casey in the nineties said that abortion must remain legal for when abortion fails. Seriously, do you understand how backwards and wrong that thinking is?
@KneeDragger So chromosomes are what you consider life? Your lack of logic is showing
@OddBeMe - 46 chromosomes, they all determine the traits of human life. It is nothing more than high school level biology. If you can pass the science class and still support abortion, by definition you are willfully. ignorant. If you don't understand the biology, you need to be a sophomore in high school when you take the science class; but please pay attention.
@KneeDragger semen has ole factory senses
@OddBeMe - This is something I'll take your word on, however, this is something I have never heard. However it would make some sense because it could help the little dudes find the egg.However, what is your point that semen can smell? Are you trying to say that because semen have a form of smell, you think they are alive?Please help me, I'm not understanding your point.
@Screenwriter – My apologies for missing this post “The only justification. . . . human errors.” But I’ll reply now ; )The justification for killing any human needs to be met before you are guilt free when you kill another person. The only justification, the ONLY JUSTIFICATION in killing another person is when they are going to directly kill another innocent person. If someone breaks into my house at night and threatens to kill me and/or my family, I’m going to regretfully kill that person, but I’m justified. I can’t kill another person unless they are threatening to kill another innocent person or myself.A mother who partakes in the activity of sex can never justify the death of her child, just because she doesn’t want the child at that specific time. All birth-control is abortifacient, ALL of them work by mimicking pregnancy, except the barriers. If a woman doesn’t want to get pregnant, no one is forcing her to have sex. If she and a dude decide to have sex, why shouldn’t they be held to the same standards as any other adult in any other situation? Even the Justice who wrote the majority opinion in Casey v Planned Parenthood said that abortion must remain legal for when birth-control fails. Take away birth-control and I promise most people won’t support abortion. Here is an even better idea! Use whatever search engine you would like and watch a surgical abortion of an eight-week-old baby. Please let me know your thoughts.
@KneeDragger The point is when is a fetus a person? Pregnancy is like the hour hand of a clock. A person is not instantly created when a sperm tail wiggles it’s way into an egg.
A human is created. But not a person. That takes quite a few months more. But... the issue is, if it's human, no matter how tiny it is, even a fertilized egg, it's murder. We've killed it. And again, sex is a normal, natural part of life. No one should be punished for having sex if their birth control fails. I wanted the son I had and planned him. I don't think I'd have wanted any other child before him. I wasn't ready. I was married too. But I wasn't ready. He's the son I'm glad I had. And it wasn't easy raising him as I was divorced a few years after his birth. We are not incubators simply because we become pregnant. There has to be choice in the matter, no matter what you want to deem an abortion. NO ONE LIKES ABORTION! We all know it's ending a potential life. That's why people use other birth control that doesn't end in abortion. But it has to be an option for those whose circumstances lead them to choose it. YOU DON'T CHOOSE IT. That is fine. Leave it at that. But don't try to force other people to adhere to your morals. There are reasons they cannot.You don't accept that. Fine. But don't force your morality on others. That's the ONLY point. You cannot choose for others. Safe birth control, even to the point of abortion, should be a right.
@Screenwriter - "A human is created. . . . should be a right"A human person is the same thing as a human or a person; those are just names or stages of the human life cycle, completely defined as the synonymous. Look the definitions up if you don’t believe me.You admit that if the fetus is human, then abortion is wrong. When a human couple has a child after sex, what else can it be, other than human? Again, the unborn are whole complete human beings from the moment of conception. Those characteristics never change! The four traits that do change are the size of the baby, her level of awareness, the environment and her degree of dependency changes as she grows up. Understanding the defining noun and characteristics is key. If you disagree you can define the terms you need to justify abortion, but you cannot switch words around to mean something else entirely.Pregnancy is hard, I agree with you one hundred percent! However, my wife and I can have sexual relations whenever we want except when she has her period because that is pretty gross as the lining in endometrium of the uterus is sluffed off; then there are four days where we need to pay attention to the natural signs of her body. If we want to have a child, green light. We can even determine what sex the child will be. Or we can hold off if we want to wait before we bring our next child into this world.Looks like I need two posts again.
@Screenwriter - All birth-control fails and according to Justice Kennedy (a Catholic by the way) who wrote the majority opinion of Casey v Planned Parenthood said that abortion must remain legal for when birth-control fails. Going back to 1973, Justice Blackburn wrote that if the unborn are ever proven to be human, the case (Roe v Wade) falls apart and abortion must be rejected because of the fourteenth Amendment. Do you see the hypocrisy in the Courts?You talk about “[t]here has to be choice in the matter” and there already is. No one is forcing a woman to have sex! If you argue for abortions in the case or rape/incest then you need to be honest because abortions from rape account for a quarter of a quarter of a percent and that is from when numbers were last accurately available. So arguing for abortion in the case of incest is not honest, you would be just appealing to emotion. Life decisions should not be based on emotions alone because emotions change so easily.Again, my problem with abortion is the slaughter of an innocent child. I make the choice to NOT allow other people to destroy other people. And by the way, abortions, even when legal are never safe for the baby and there is always a large risk to the mother.
@KneeDragger And this is my point precisely Mr. Dragger. Unless all of those aborted babies have vetted homes waiting for them and lifetime support.. stop.
@Screenwriter - Can you predict the future? No one can and the inability to predict the future as a justification to abort a child is just beyond weak.How many people right now starve to death and are homeless in this country? Please provide evidence that all of those people died because they came from families that didn't want them and/or couldn't afford to raise them? Does that sound ridiculous to you? I hope you understand our country allows you to grow up and move up in the different classes of America if you are willing to work, based on nothing else. Do you need me to provide you with examples?
@KneeDragger Of course, no one can predict the future. But future performance is based on past circumstances. A woman chooses a path based on her past circumstances. If they are precarious, she will likely choose what appears safest for her at THAT TIME. This has nothing to do with people who are doing well today and came from poor circumstances or those who came from great circumstances and are doing poorly today.This is SOLELY about how the woman sees her life at the time she chooses to continue with her pregnancy or discontinue. That is it. All these what ifs cloud the simple issue of choosing for right now.
Women need to have that option. As you said, you, nor the millions of others against abortion, will be there for those women and their children. So, based on those facts, she is all alone in this decision, this weighing her work situation, her economic situation and her family situation, if she has other children to provide for. If we had a culture that did support women through their pregnancies and provided child care and early childhood education and support throughout the years 1-19 in ALL circumstances, I'm sure very few women would want or need abortions. We have no such support. We don't value women's lives or their needs OR CHILDREN'S LIVES OR NEEDS!!! That is the problem. Until that is completely turned around, abortion will be a necessity. I have nothing else to say. And thank you for your thoughts on the matter. You are a caring person. I see that.However, we come from different perspectives. As a man you cannot feel the THREAT of being pregnant when you don't want to be, the threat of having your body as an enemy. You will NEVER be pregnant or have to face raising a child you don't want for WHATEVER reason.That is where the rubber hits the road. Birth control fails. A CHILD should never be a punishment for having sex. And that is what a child would be. You think that would scare people off of having sex?It NEVER HAS and it never will. Regards to you.
@Screenwriter - So a woman cannot predict the future just like a man. A child doesn't deserve to die because the circumstances aren't perfect in the opinions of the parents. A natural consequence shouldn't exist?
@Screenwriter - Why should sex be different than any other activity in life, where it would bee consequence free?
Anyone notice how twenty-four guys have an opinion on this with only four ladies?I'll wager a thousand dollars the majority of guys who support a lady having access to abortion, they just want to be able to have sex with women and have a backup for when the "birth-control" fails? Hell, I'll up it to twenty-thousand dollars!
Consenting to sex isn’t consenting to pregnancy.
Yes it is you dumb fucking shithead, I’m not gunna waste my time explaining to you how babies are made
Consenting to sex IS consenting to the consequences of the action, the action of sex.
Consenting to driving isn’t consenting to a wreck.
@OddBeMe - "Consenting to driving isn’t consenting to a wreck." Please explain this to me. If you are on the road, you might get in a wreck; even if it's NOT your fault. You still wrecked.
When it relies on someone else’s body, sorry it her choice.
OddBeMe... Only mankind's Leagal system of evil denial of GOD. Every human has a God giving right to life regardless of your stand down weak cowardly excuse for am man you were born as. GODS body , her choice , her destiny to a place called hell. And you condone this meham?
Nature determines where pregnancy exists, it sure isn't her choice because she wants to be irresponsible for her actions and choices.
KneeDragger. Then why did she put herself in that position?
Should men be forced to donate organs?
@OddBeMe - "Should men be forced to donate organs?" Being forced to donate organs doesn't involve a free choice.A woman and man who FREELY partake in an action which is known to create life, they are responsible for the consequences of the action/s; positive or negative.
OddBeMe..., That's not an anology of the same. But with that said , then why are you opposing the truth?
It’s exactly the same. Legally, you’re requiring women to carry a pregnancy. What if donating organs was required? Men would revolt.
Like they are with mask mandates. I love seeing right wingers holding “my body my choice” signs.
@OddBeMe - "It’s exactly the same. Legally, you’re requiring women to carry a pregnancy. What if donating organs was required? Men would revolt." Hahahaha, just because you say something, that doesn't make it true.Now if you were to have a hypothetical discussion where men carried pregnancy versus women, then we could go there. But instead you're creating something that is nonsensical.
OddBeMe... Well what do you expect from adulterers , whores and promiscuous irresponsible behavior? The only type of woman that would claim that are promiscuous adulterers. Why are you so quick to side with the serpant?
By the , men weren't born to donate organs , but women were born to concieve and give birth if they chose to.
@Djaay - "Then why did she put herself in that position?" Sorry I missed this earlier. If I had to make a somewhat educated guess, she made the choice because her body, like all of our bodies, she has hormones that peak, ebb and flow.A dude is always willing and desires to have physical relations with a given woman. Have you noticed a woman desires a man the most, during certain; in other words, exact moments of her cycle? Something tells me that I will be attacked for sharing this truth, but so be it.
@Djaay Oops, another debate devolves into religious fervor...
Relious favor... GOD CREATED EVERYTHING YOU SPEAK OF. WAKE UP
@OddBeMe - "Like they are with mask mandates. I love seeing right wingers holding “my body my choice” signs." Guess what OddBeMe? When the Wuhan virus first struck I followed the rules. For the last, oh, six or seven months I haven't followed any "mask mandates." Instead I know a virus sure as hell doesn't care if I have a mask on and I sure won't let a government take away my freedoms. If a business requires a mask, they must not want my money so I don't worry about spending money there.
@KneeDragger ok ball dragger. Shhh you’re at the parent’s table.
@OddBeMe - "PROVE IT..." This is easy!! Please prove, with scientific proof where and how the mammalian eye "evolved." Please, provide evidence with sources; not just an article with opinions.
@KneeDragger the fuck does that have to do with god existing? I’m not an evolutionary biologist dick dragger. Do you have evidence of god? Or should you go back to the kid’s table?
Religions and non-beilevers such as yourself only know of or about God. Being in a personal relationship with the God of the Bible know God , not just of him. Being that you must know the truth before you can lie about it proves to me anyhow that you yourself only know of him. When your in a personal spiritual relationship with the God of the Bible , the spirit engulfs you to prove its self to you. That is how we know for sure.
@Djaay In other words, you don’t have evidence.
In other words my friend , I do have evidence that I can pass on to you through prayer and you will feel the Holy spirit.
Anything else you believe without evidence? Lochness monster? Bigfoot?
It'll happen when your not expecting it to.
Seriously, you believe in a big magic sky man because your parents do, but there’s nothing else you believe without evidence. Why not apply skepticism to god?
@OddBeMe - "Seriously, you believe in a big magic sky man because your parents do, but there’s nothing else you believe without evidence. Why not apply skepticism to god?" The existence of GOD is provable. Where did life come from? If we evolved, why do great apes have more chromosomes? Where is the fossil evidence? You never explained mammalian eyes, instead you attacked me because you have no proof.
Bean sized fetus does not equal child.
So life is a function of size?
If left uninterrupted, that bean sized fetus will grow-up and be a functioning part of society.
When taking away rights on people’s body, yup.
What rights specifically?
Women’s body rights.
What about the unborn child's body rights?
If you’re dependent on someone else’s body... sorry. Same for cancer patients needing bone marrow. Can’t just control anyone’s body.
And automatically calling the “fetus” an “unborn child” is poisoning the well in this argument. Can’t just call a bean a child and then demand to protect it. Gotta prove it.
@OddBeMe - "And automatically calling the “fetus” an “unborn child” is poisoning the well in this argument. Can’t just call a bean a child and then demand to protect it. Gotta prove it." The term "fetus" is simply a stage of development.
@OddBeMe - "If you’re dependent on someone else’s body... sorry. Same for cancer patients needing bone marrow. Can’t just control anyone’s body." Again, nature determines where the child grows and nature doesn't allow for abortion to occur. It takes the deliberate actions of another person to slaughter the infant.
Can't call a child a "bean" at all
@KneeDragger you never heard of miscarriages huh
@OddBeMe - "you never heard of miscarriages huh" An abortion is the "direct and willful slaughter" of an innocent child. A miscarriage is "a natural event" that causes the death of a child.I'll quote the two phrases, please understand the differences.When you compare the two, you are truly showing your ignorance. Please talk with a lady who has had the unfortunate experience of a miscarriage. Find a lady who is happy right now with her experience of an abortion/s. Then finally, talk with a lady who regrets her abortion. Then you can come back and talk about the different experiences. Until then, I recommend you stop trying to justify abortion because you don't understand what you are talking about; and it's abundantly obvious.
@KneeDragger Good response
I told you I’m keeping this baby and naming it SevenPoint Jr!
in all honesty i'd be a good father but i don't want one. if forced to have one i think doing it alone would be best for me
Agreed. So we should make brith control free and hand them out at high schools everywhere right?
That is not a bad idea actually. Then teach girls self worth so they don't let just any dick into their bed. 😎
Your sexist rhetoric aside, yes teaching children about sex earlier in life would limit abortions.
Yes and your rhetoric was not sexist lol
Can I go a day without some Anon fuck crashing a party he wasn’t invited to?
I'll stop the abortion debate when people have an honest discussion about abortion and the action is made illegal again.