"Give me sex by the end of the third date or there's not gonna be a fourth date!" Do you consider that to be rape?

[OlderAndWiser]

@Roxi-2 asked "What do you think of women leaving men if they don’t marry within a certain time phrame?" and, since I see that as a futile ultimatum, I responded "What do you think of guys who give girls ultimatums in relationships, like 'give me sex by the end of the third date or there's not gonna be a fourth date?'" I think that is an equally futile ultimatum to deliver and I was trying to get her to see this from the perspective of the person receiving the ultimatum.

She responded that if a guy says that to a girl, it constitutes rape! I tried to explain that any girl presented with that ultimatum can walk away and not have sex, so there is no element of force or coercion and it is not rape. She INSISTED that is certainly is rape, so I suggested that I would pose this question and she gave me permission to disclose her user name when I posted the question.

I am NOT trying to defend a guy giving a girl this ultimatum. I have never done anything like that. I think it's stupid and disrespectful. . . but I don't think it's rape. What do you think? Is this rape or is this just an example of someone being brainwashed by woke culture?

[lightbulb27]

not rape since she has a choice to leave, and it isn't always the man asking. women can be aggressive... e. g. an early memory of a work colleague being propositioned by a woman he dated.

This rings a bell for me though. A woman I went on a few dates (dancing, dinner out), began to escalate at my home. She was flirty and it got touchy to where she was pleasured, but she wouldn't reciprocate. Tried that again on another date, she wouldn't reciprocate. Selfish as could be.

At that point I said in essence, were not doing this anymore. That was the end of that... I was friendzoned as she wasn't having her needs met. I foolishly stayed around for over a decade. And indications are, maybe that was all manipulation and maybe sexual abuse, depending on how it evolved. It was 15 years ago.

Is that rape... of my life? Answer: I had a choice to leave, but I was on the various "drugs"/manpulations to stay.

I can see this being abuse, as well as Roxy's situation being abusive depending how it was done.

[Pete671]

D, it's coercion,

[OlderAndWiser]

The broad definition of coercion is "the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will." With respect to state law, "the statutory definition of coercion is fairly uniform among the states: the use of intimidation or threats to force (or prevent) someone to do something they have a legal right to do (or not to do)"

www.findlaw.com/.../what-is-coercion-law.html

Everything statement that implies a consequence for refusal to comply is not coercion. The threat must be of force or violence or some other intimidating action that the speaker does not have a lawful right to do.

This is not coercion.

[Pete671]

That's interesting, in UK under the Sexual Offences Act it most certainly is, difficult to prove in court though as it's one person's word against another. Eg if one person found out another was having an affair and threatened to tell their partner unless they agreed to sex this would def be an offence,,,

[OlderAndWiser]

In the US, this would not be treated as a rape, but it would constitute blackmail.

"Blackmail involves a threat to do something that would cause a person to suffer embarrassment or financial loss, unless that person meets certain demands. The threat might include:

to reveal private information about a person that is likely to cause them embarrassment;
to reveal sensitive information that is likely to cause financial harm;
to accuse a person falsely of a crime; or
to report a person’s involvement in a crime.

In order to avoid the threatened action, a blackmail victim must pay money to the blackmailer or perform some other action. The action demanded by the blackmailer may or may not be illegal itself."

www.justia.com/.../

[Pete671]

Ah I see, interesting, blackmail is not actually a legal term here, it would be something like "obtaining a pecuniary advantage by threat" or something archaic like that, I'm no expert tbh,,,

[OlderAndWiser]

I am an attorney but I do not practice in the area of criminal law.

[Pete671]

ah cool, I don't know what an Attorney is tbh, do you advocate on behalf of the State?,,,

[OlderAndWiser]

It is a combination of barrister and solicitor. My clients are private citizens.

[lilyanony1]

I think it's presumptuous for a man to assume he has the right to make a demand like that since sex is such an intimate act. It's not like anything other we do with another human being.
I'd really insist that the woman on the receiving end of this to run.
But in terms of it being rape no I don't agree. I think its a stupid inconsiderate person trying to pressure something that hasn't happened already.
If the woman were to go ahead with the demands and change her mind at any stage and the act not to stop immediately then that would constitute rape.

I think the closest this will get to a crime is coercion...

[Guardian45]

It's also presumptuous to assume that only a man would say this. I know a woman who thought this way. Needless to say we aren't dating anymore.

[lilyanony1]

Since I'm a straight woman and it was a man asking the question I answered based upon the fact I'd be receiving a comment like this from a man. I'm sorry that you felt offended by my comment that you had to defend yourself and address the error with females that are also inconsiderate. I don't deny in the modern world where women are becoming more independent they are also developing a more aggressive nature which will lead them to act in the ways we once loathed.

[Guardian45]

Thank you. I think it's more about a certain personality type than just males. Shall we call them The Entitled?

[lilyanony1]

If that's what makes you happy. But my comment hasn't and won't change. It's still a man a was referring to.

[lilyanony1]

Thanks for mho x

[JenniferStar]

It's not rape if they just say that. If they said it and the partner says no and they say "OK bye," it's no different than saying no any other way. If they try to use force or tear their partners cloths off THEN it becomes rape.

[OlderAndWiser]

Exactly. It's not rape until there is a threat of force.

[NamerOfStars]

No, that's nowhere close to rape. Still being a manipulative jerk, though.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yeah, I don't endorse that ultimatum at all.

[LisaLisa89]

It's rape if penetration takes place non-consensually.
If the woman is happy to go ahead and have sex then all well and good. If she's not happy to go ahead and decides to have no more dates then that's also up to her.
Personally I would be very concerned about the future prospects of the relationship if I presented with such an ultimatum. If the only thing that's important to the man is sex then I'd be getting out of it quick.

[OlderAndWiser]

I think it is a stupid ultimatum that tells a girl "I am ONLY dating you with the hope of having sex very soon and you mean nothing more to me than that." It is a very low-rent, selfish statement. But if she caves in and has sex to hold on to him a mistake,) it is not rape.

[Brainsbeforebeauty]

How could that be considered rape, cuz sex wouldn't even happen if someone had the nerve to give me that ultimatum, there wouldn't be another date after that much less sex

[DizzyDesii]

Its not rape. What is rape-y was my ex saying YOU BETTER GIVE IN TO SEX ON OUR DATE OR I WILL TAKE IT FROM YOU AND MAKE YOU GIVE IT TO ME! I DONT WANT TO DOUBLE DATE NOR SHARE A HOTEL WITH YOUR FRIENDS BECAUSE THEY WILL GET IN THE WAY OF MY PLANS. I THOUGHT I COULD WAIT 6 MONTHS BUT I CANNOT EVEN WAIT LONGER THAN A MONTH. And he literally thought i was going to keep dating him after that. And no he was not joking

[Guardian45]

YIKES!😳😬

[Daniela1982]

I don't call that dating. I call that a timed Booty Call. The timer goes off on the 3rd date and it's either head for a motel or head for the hills. You can't call it rape because no force is being used. It's basically an agreement to carry things forward or end it. Actually the rule is archaic as that it does not promote getting to know each other but instead promotes a quick decision of do I like this person enough to have sex with them or look elsewhere for the right person.

[Roxi-2]

You’re referring to SEX you can’t just force someone into sex without it being full on rape, you just can’t regardless of how you put it.

[OlderAndWiser]

Where is the force in this scenario?

[Roxi-2]

Also love how NONE of the options is “it’s rape” all of them come down to YOU somehow being right regardless lmao you’re a looser for that one babe

[Roxi-2]

Once that it happens after the man FORCED her into it it’s fucking because they didn’t want to on their own, you can’t make someone have sex with you idc if it’s in a violent way or not without it being rape

[Roxi-2]

Also LOVE how none of the answers are “it’s rape” lmfao you didn’t even give the option to go against what you said, you’re an l00sur for dat.

[OlderAndWiser]

So far, everyone who has responded disagrees with you. It must be difficult to be right and be the only person on the planet who realizes that.

[OlderAndWiser]

And if you don't like my options, post your own poll.

[Roxi-2]

LMAOO get off your high horse babe 💀 and there’s one other comment that does and the other doesn’t agree so please I don't know what you thought you were doing

[Roxi-2]

Also let me find out you posted this in hopes all these people would agree with you and bully me because You’re angry lol

[19magic]

Not really if he says don't give me sex by the third date or I'll leave and she does agree to do so then that's her choice to do so it's not rape unless he pins her down and then fs her that's rape

[Roxi-2]

The problem would be it was her choice it was a by force choice which would than make it rape.

[Roxi-2]

Rape doesn’t have to be violent for it to be rape, forcing or even convincing someone to the point where they just give in yes it’s rape 💯

[OlderAndWiser]

You aren't sufficiently important for me to be angry at you. So far, 9 people have voted that it is not rape and no one has voted that it is rape, so you can misconstrue this however you want but I'm through with you.

[19magic]

It wasn't as she could just have easily said no and gone with another guy who would have not said that

[Gwenhwyfar]

@19magic I agree with @19magic. Just dump his ass.

[Gwenhwyfar]

now if the guy refused to drive her home if she wouldn’t put out, then I would change my answer

[Gwenhwyfar]

Or if he threatened to post her nudes online

[purplepoppy]

It's only an ultimatum if you have no choice. She could simply say bye. Similarly she could demand a brand new car on similar terms. There's no end to the ridiculous.

[Lliam]

That's as insane as calling it rape when a guy looks at a passing women. "He RAPED me with his eyes!"
Or calling it rape when two people are kissing and the guy whispers "I want to fuck you."

Some people are completely insane.

Here's the way a mentally healthy woman would deal with such coercive, egotistical behavior.
The guy says "Give me sex by the end of the third date or there's not gonna be a fourth date!"
She says "Thanks for letting me know" and leaves him flat.

[kqueen]

it's definitely coercion to attempt to manipulate someone into doing sexual acts they don't want to do/wouldn't do otherwise. I don't think it falls under the legal definition of rape but it's definitely immoral.

[OlderAndWiser]

I agree that it's an awful thing to say to someone but it's not coercion because the guy has a right to announce that condition for continuing the relationship. He is not threatening force or violence or anything that is illegal.

[kqueen]

It's not illegal, but the definition of coercion is just threatening something that the other person does not want to happen to get someone else to do something, it doesn't necessarily involve physical violence. The man is free to leave the relationship at any time of course, but by announcing the condition, he is knowingly trying to manipulate the woman into doing something she does not want to do by threatening to do something she does not want to happen. Not illegal, but it is coercion

[OlderAndWiser]

The broad definition of coercion is "the use of express or implied threats of violence or reprisal (as discharge from employment) or other intimidating behavior that puts a person in immediate fear of the consequences in order to compel that person to act against his or her will."

www.findlaw.com/.../what-is-coercion-law.html

Although I have cited a legal source, the above definition is not a legal definition of coercion but a common usage definition.

"If you don't hurry up, I'm gonna go without you." By your definition, that is coercion. If you are calling something that simple "coercion," then the word will lose all meaning.

[kqueen]

I wasn't talking about the legality of the act, and coercion (not the crime, just the common definition) has a broader usage that largely depends more on context than it does on the act threatened. In your replied example the person is trying to get someone to do something relatively harmless with a largely empty threat, so no, not coercion. In the original example the man would be trying to use the fact that the woman presumably cared for him and wanted to see him again to convince her to perform a sexual act she didn't want to do, which is much more serious.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, he is using some perceived power that he may have over the woman, but that happens every day in relationships, and it works both ways. He has the "right" to break up with a girl if she doesn't have sex by the third date (even though it is a horribly wrong thing to do.) Should he break up without telling her why? Should he tell her why after he breaks up and walks away from her? Coercion usually implies that you are using some power or authority that you have no right to gain an advantage over someone, such as "I'm your father and I always take care of you, so you should have sex with me." That is VERY clearly wrong. If I said to you, "You must agree with me about this issue or I am going to block you," is that coercion? I have the right to block you and it is not a threat of force or violence. Every instance in which you "cave in" and let someone else have their way is not coercion.

[kqueen]

you described coercion as someone using power to gain an advantage, in this case he does have a certain kind of power over the woman that he is using to his advantage to get her to do something she doesn't want to. Trying to get someone to do sexual acts you know they don't want to is always going to be immoral regardless of what power you may or may not have over them. She can always walk away, but that doesn't make his actions right or non coercive

[OlderAndWiser]

I think our disagreement simply arises from different definitions of "coercion," but I am careful about that word because it implies that someone was doing something that they don't have a right to do.

[kqueen]

yes, I am also using it in that way. The man has a right to leave the relationship but not to hold that right over someone else's head.

[Ukrainianbuddafly]

It isn't rape or sexual assault but it most definitely is messed up. No female would want to deal with a guy like that.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, it's a stupid ultimatum, but it's not rape.

[MCheetah]

No, and I'm sick of people trivializing rape or sexual assault to where they can't be taken seriously anymore. That girl sounds like a fucking First World idiot, if I've ever heard one. Just two reasons why I hate modern society and the people living in it.

[hahahmm]

It doesn't matter what we call it. The fact is that a woman can change her mind years later and say the guy raped her. The court and most of the public will agree with her because she 'remembers' being forced. A guy who even has sex with a woman without getting her to sign multiple contracts on video is risking his life these days.

[tatianamay]

Both comparisons are absolutely stupid. It is NOT rape. The guy is giving the girl an ultimatum. The girl is free to decline his offer on the date or take him up on it. But, if I were her, I'd cut off contact with the guy. I would not be interested in a guy who is giving me ultimatums, such as these. If he and I don't share the same views on things like these, I'd much rather find someone else who does.

[OlderAndWiser]

I agree.

[Shizunk]

Rape includes physical force. Its a pretty stupid blackmail and a fast way to not get that next date.
If a girl wanted to give me a timelimit for marriage thats actually quite nice though :-D if that limit is at least a few months and not two hours, I'm in!

[dustybiker]

FBI’s definition
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/violent-crime/rape

It’s a threat. They’d be reminded where the door was and asked not to slam it on the way out.

[OlderAndWiser]

FBI's definition (which is not the definition of rape under any state law) is " Penetration, no matter how slight, of the vagina or anus with any body part or object, or oral penetration by a sex organ of another person, without the consent of the victim." In this case, the "victim" is given a choice and she consents.

[EmbraceThePain]

Clearly not rape or sexual assault.

[Bluemax]

I certainly don't consider it rape or sexual assault.

That being said, if it's an *unspoken* policy, would you consider that manipulative? This is something I have never done, nor will I ever do it. Nor have I even adopted it as an unspoken policy. However I know people who do maintain this as an unspoken policy.

[OlderAndWiser]

Yes, I consider it to be manipulative and disrespectful, and I would never suggest anything like that. I would tell a girl that I am very attracted and ready to move on to a physical relationship with her as soon as she feels ready for that. Hopefully, knowing that I am waiting - not impatiently demanding - gives her something to think about.

[ShadezMcgee]

That isn't rape. While it is a blunt and shitty ultimatum, it is not rape. Rape would imply that there was a physical confrontation, no consent and penetration was involved.

[TadCurious]

That's definitely not rape and it's an easy question. It's quite histrionic to assert otherwise. But I agree that it would be very wrong to give that ultimatum.

[ElizaPam]

No that's not rape in any way he has the right to ask for sex