What might feel like a cure to the sick can have the effect of poison on the unafflicted. Trans people can believe whatever they want, but when they try to impose those beliefs on the rest of us, and apply political and social pressure to do so, then they cross the line into what I'd consider a form of intellectual terrorism. Forgive me if that wording sounds harsh or triggering (sincerely, I'm not here to sow bad feelings towards anyone), but when people are being hounded on social media to the point of suicide and fired from their jobs because they said "gender is real" or some such statement, then yes, I consider those involved to be spreading ideology through the use of terror. I'm sure plenty of trans supporters do NOT engage in such actions. But the redefinition of words and the sublimation of facts towards feelings is a precursor that allows such terrorising incidents to foment in the broader social landscape.
Woops, replied to the wrong comment.
Says it all really. Props to you for accepting yourself whilst keeping your head screwed on straight. It's an increasingly rare quality, because everyone wants to have their cake and eat it too, very few people actually take ownership of their choices and understand they can't always have it both ways. If you've had a gender transition, then by definition you're trans, I don't understand why certain sects within the trans community insist so much on being simultaneously an M2F and a "real woman", or an F2M and a "real man". Like, at a certain point, surely people just have to pick a lane, right? Anyways, respect to you, you've got the right idea.
That’s exactly it. When gays and lesbians wanted equal rights, they didn’t demand that people accept that two people of the same sex can make a baby or that you’re homophobic if you only want to go out with the opposite sex.
But that's the problem, because the slightest comment can make someone "transphobic". people are scared or legislation scared to check on that. So it creates loopholes. But you don't hear trans people make a comment about that. They only complain about not being in women's sports but not caring about women if say top female runners lose scholariships because trans women dominate the highschool competition. There was some cases showing the loophole because way too much sensitivity from trans community. Where a male criminal. Had cosmetics and breasts padding and said he identified as woman and was in a women's prison. He raped 9 of the female inmates before they took him out and put him in a men's prison. They fucked up, but I think this stuff happens from feeling pressured to not thorougly check things because of fear from being ridiculed by everything being transphobic.
I made a mistake in the poll options. Damn site doesn't allow for corrections..I can't believe you actually believe a man born male is somehow equal to you biologically speaking. It's delusion.
Yeah, I had the same issue with my generations question when I missed millennials and I couldn't fix it. I get why they don't allow it but it's annoying. It isn't about biologically. Can a person born biologically male get pregnant and give birth? Currently no (although this is changing in the future). Does that make her any less a woman? No. If the benchmark is the ability to get pregnant, then I and a lot of other women wouldn't meet the mark either.
What part is confusing you hun?
They are harming. They’re trying to normalize something that isn’t normal
Harming what exactly?
@Ez-Bri-Z sorry but if a transwoman hits a woman imma hit that transwoman just like a man. they're not the same and this ish has to stop because biological women are getting hurt by this and it will get worse as time goes on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8XEtqNS3XE&t=891sThis is a mental illness and therapy and copious amounts of prescription drugs are the answer. We need to stop encouraging mentally ill people and start getting them the help they need!
Children. The future
The way you things want is when a thing delivers a baby the Dr will say “congratulations I don’t know what to call it”
@t-8900 lol but according to you they are really guys so when they knock your ass out while in a dress in heels thats really gotta be embarrassing for you. Also they do get a copious amount of prescriptions called hormones, but then again even cis people get hormones, for example women going through menopause. @Pterodon the future of what? What children do they hurt? I have a trans friend who has never harmed my kids in the slightest. I'd venture to say having hate in your heart for others is more damaging than someone just trying to live their best life.
Kids don’t know what they are anymore
Do I really have to explain this? "It isn't about biologically. Can a person born biologically male get pregnant and give birth? Currently no (although this is changing in the future). Does that make her any less a woman? No.If the benchmark is the ability to get pregnant, then I and a lot of other women wouldn't meet the mark either."A man will never be able to conceive a sperm seed and have a baby developed within him. Never!God gave only the woman the gift to bring life into this world not a man.Secondly, and the benchmark is or isn't the ability to get pregnant as some woman may have a medical condition that doesn't allow them to get pregnant.The benchmark is a man is XY chromosome and that can't be changed at all. It's impossible. Secondly, a man doesn't have a vagina and there are other differences biologically speaking that separates a man and woman.
I was taught their are three genders. Masculine, feminine and neuter. Remember that from English class? Well you want to do away with masculine and feminine and make all of us things or “it’s”
@Ez-Bri-Z they can try fam but you hit my wife you're probably spending more time learning how to walk all over again then anything else XD
I didn't know what I was either growing up. I tried to make myself straight and force myself to like guys and it just never happened. I'm glad I was able to figure it out. Kids never who or what they are. Thats why therapy is there to help and every single trans person in the US has to visit a therapist of they want to begin hormone therapy. Seems like all sides are covered.
and no i mean antipsychotics because that's what they need to be on.
I knew what I was because I was born with a dick. You’re just a fucked up freak if you can’t look at your genitalia and know
@Pterodon stop bro. the way you used your words made me laugh too hard
@t-8900 nah, but they aren't psychotic. I think the ones who are more worried about what in another person's pants might be a bit more psychotic. Well, unless you are trying to hook up with them, I guess then you might want to know then. I mean, everyone talks a big game until they get into a fight. I hope you never have to experience anyone ever coming for you or your wife of course, but I am just saying, don't be overconfident. There is always someone out there more prepared than you are. @Pterodon I also remember Oxford commas from English class, but does that mean I'm hung up on using them? Nope.
You’re a freak
@Hispanic-Cool-Guy sorry about that, your post must have come in while I was posting! Let's see what we have here. You say never and yet womb transplants are becoming a thing and there are several species on this planet that can change their sex already. Never say never, we are just waiting to see where evolution takes us. Who knows, maybe it becomes possible with more transgendered folks coming out. Over time maybe we all develop the ability to change our genetic makeup at will. Xy chromosomes.. yeah except it isn't always that clean. There are like 5 or 6 different kinds of genetic makeup for intersexed people but hey, we can stick with xx or xy as being the only possible combinations if we want to deny science. Uh, bottom surgery is a thing. If I want to get on testosterone, grow my clit out and then get a phalloplasty to form a dick, I can absolutely do that. That is a thing that exists.
You’re the one with a pussy between your legs and you say you don’t know what you are? You’re the one fucked up not us yet you want us to accept your insanity as normal. Well fuck you. I think we need thing colonies like we used to have leper colonies
@Pterodon lmao because I dont use the Oxford comma? Geeze, you really did take English classes seriously!
@t-8900: I saw it. What a abusive prick. Smacking a woman around knowing good and well she can't hurt him. Damn coward.
@Pterodon I know what I am. When did I imply I didn't?
@Ez-Bri-Z I typed up a storm and decided it was best to leave it lie. I know you're not a bad person we just have different philosophical views and that's fine. But yeah if they attacked my wife or kids all bets are off. I believe in stand your ground and castle doctrine and I'll leave it at that and I believe that no matter what happens to me personally that it's my job to be the first line of defense for my family in all situations and use any means necessary to protect them, whatever that might be. I'm not gonna beat up or bully a trans person because they're trans that's just messed up. Though if it's clearly a dude they aren't going into the same bathroom with my daughters either. Yes trans people have attempted to rape people in bathrooms if you require articles i will link it. we live in a society with low trust. Priests, teachers, co-workers trying to rape women. I dont take chances I've been through enough as a child to be on the look out for predators.
@Hispanic-Cool-Guy did you see how her blows just brushed off him and did nothing? This is what I mean man it's too damn dangerous and it needs to stop NOW.
@t-8900 see? This is what I love about rational people in a debate. We can disagree and not get all rude about it. Thank you for approaching it this way. I dont think you are a bad person either. Its ok to disagree and im much more likely to listen to your points when we talk like this 😊That being said let me be very clear, I am not worried about the bathroom thing just because they are trans. Cis or trans, ANYONE hurts my child and ill rip their trachea out through their asshole. I'm a nice and calm woman most of the time, but im also a South Texan Mexican woman and am not afraid to get bloody when my kids are in danger.
You said you didn’t know what you were growing up. You’re a fucked up freak if you can’t look at your pussy and know
@Ez-Bri-Z or your partner either I hope. And yes I'm Sicilian, need I say more? XD
We need colonies for things like you
@Pterodon lmao I meant being a lesbian. I tried to make myself straight and couldn't. I just didn't know it was a thing growing up because I didn't have a computer until I was late in high school
I don’t want things like you around influencing my grandkids
I still don’t want you around trying to make your sickness seem normal.
@t-8900 lol my wife is a red headed country girl raised around 7 brothers, of the two of us she is the real scary one @Pterodon ok, but if you don't want them exposed to lesbians you may want to close your browser windows and clear the cache and cookies from all your porn visits 😉
No all we have to do is ship you off to colonies
An all lesbian colony with no haters such as yourself? We'd become the most dominant and wealthy nation on earth. Hold on now, this does sound promising. There is a place is this world named Lesbos. Pretty sure there isn't one called Asshole or you could live there, but you'd probably end up there alone because you don't seem like the type who wants other men in your Asshole. It seems like a place you'd only feel comfortable exploring on your own. You know, stretching out a bit and settling in for a nice long stay there.
@t-8900: I couldn't even tell who was the woman. I thought the blonde was the man because he was taller. I found out the blonde is the woman through reading the comments. Lol
No you wouldn’t you’d be easily taken over
No you’d just be the most dominant queer fag things and a huge minority
@Pterodon their Olympic teams would suck too
@Suckmyballhanma they wouldn’t be allowed
@Pterodon I’m not tryna discredit women they got strengths and they got weaknesses the fact that strength manages to be one of their weaknesses though is pretty ironic
@Hispanic-Cool-Guy yeah once you saw the difference at the end of the 1st round and into the second it was made VERY clear who the biological woman was. The strength difference was very clear.
@Ez-Bri-Z would you date a trans woman?
@Ez-Bri-Z also dont you think its too much for sports? You saw that fight I showed. After the fight that woman's skull was fractured. If she had been fighting women that wouldn't have happened. that dude was a former marine, was a dude the whole time. Then like for the last 2 years he becomes trans. Like WHAT? NO! That's too much sorry. I think I expect most people to see that for what it is.
ah shit i'm not trying to pile on top with everybody now i feel bad. I'll message you if you give me the chance to chat about it i know you're private.
Why is "its not hurting you" always the fallback argument on these hot button issues lately? Like, maybe some of us just value the truth and objective reality for its own sake, and not merely as a means towards escaping some personal harm.
Wow ok lots of posts to catch up on. Let's start from the top. I'm ignoring Kev for the most part here because he will probably be banned again in like the next 10 minutes and start a new account, but to answer your only real response, sure, I'm panromantic. I'm just not into penetration even with toys so that would be something they'd have to know going into a relationship with me.@Pterodon be nice or ill make your words much nicer to see @t-8900 yeah kinda sucks about that which ironically it wouldn't be an issue if hormone blockers had been in place before she started puberty. If she had been on estrogen the entire puberty she wouldn't have those advantages ironically@SomeGuyCalledTom its not the truth, its just your version of the truth *shrug* Its fine, we can disagree and biologically I am even in agreement with you, but a transwoman is still a woman and a transman is still a man because now we are taking about gender not sex.
She’s a lesbian she likes women so she knows she wouldn’t date trans woman
@SomeGuyCalledTom @Pterodon @t-8900 notice how she won’t answer the question would she date a trans
I did answer it. Its that whole part about being panromantic so yes I'd date a transwoman.
Oh gosh, those last few posts by Pterodon are so much nicer to read now. See? I told you I'd make them nicer!
Oh so you wouldn’t have sex with a trans woman then
Biological sex IS gender, the terms only really became separated when postmodern feminist theorists in the 90s and 00s started pushing their theory of how gender is a "feeling" and therefore totally independent of biological sex. Bottom line, men are men, women are women, and any "confusion" over that belongs entirely within the purview of the self-concept (an already hard-to-quantify and therefore pseudoscientific premise). If U woke up tomorrow and "felt like a woman", that wouldn't make it so. I'd have to go through the exact mental gymnastics you've presented of "well, sex and gender aren't the same, so I'll get over my cognitive dissonance over the fact of having a penis and male chromosomes by just inventing a new identity, and then make everyone else agree with that identity on the basis that its not directly harming them".You are right on one thing though, that people can disagree on something and not be rude about it. So in that regard I mean no rudeness to you personally, but the position you've chosen to take in this discourse is one I find to be intrinsically wrong. I've seen the talking points before, I understand how people of such convictions come to convince themselves of what they want to believe as "truth". I just don't see in the real world any morsel of that subjective "truth" you hold up so dearly. We may breathe the same air, but as far as this subject goes, we might as well exist in two different universes. I don't see any way to reconcile that fundamental disagreement, so with that said I'll have to chalk this up to "agree to disagree", and wish you a good day.
Edit: typo: "I" not "U"
@SomeGuyCalledTom I was trying to explain that to people on here and they still got butthurt because I don’t agree support and oppose the LGBT lifestyle and they accused me of spreading hate because I don’t agree with it
You can not agree, thats fine, but you also personally spread hate and not just about that. @SomeGuyCalledTom Shame. I actually think you'd be fun to debate civilly. You actually seem to make some valid points, but I'll honor your agree to disagree stance 😊
@Suckmyballhanma well I can't speak for anyone except myself, but I think when approaching topics like this it's usually best to limit the debate only to what's most relevant. The issue of "are trans women real women?" isn't really connected to sexual orientation and it's manifestations in 'lifestyle'. Personally I got zero beef with LGBT people who just live their lives in peace. My beef is with people (LGBT or not) who try to redefine the linguistic landscape and move the goalposts for what's "fact" vs "fiction". (eg: separating biological sex from gender, and then subordibating the biological component entirely whenever a "feeling" of gender grips the mind.) My problem is that the 99.999% of people who are NOT "transexual" can be pressured into believing (or at least tolerating, which amounts to 'believing' in the end result) all the delusional ideas about gender "fluidity" that trans people had to convince themselves to be true as a matter of psychological survival. I totally get why a trans person would need to believe their condition can be explained away by this sort of postmodern 'gender subjectivity'. But when their cognitive dissonance and coping mechanisms start to bleed over into the collective consciousness, then eventually we get to a point where society itself no longer knows up from down or "fact" from "theory". I believe there's an objective reality that exists regardless of our perceiving it (or not). I also accept that I don't personally have the full picture of that objective reality. But there is a 'functional' reality in which I must exist, and its that functional reality which gives me some amount of faith that I can "call a spade a spade" and not have to be in a constant rabbit hole of "well what IS a spade, that's awfully subjective, what if this spade FEELS like a trowel?".
@SomeGuyCalledTom that’s the problem they never keep things relevant and write me off as some hate monger when I’m not its okay that they’re gay or trans or whatever but they shouldn’t expect others to accept its normal when it’s not god created male and female at the end of the day your either one or the other I believe they know that and that’s why they get so defensive
Ok, I'll bite on this last comment. Remember, not everyone shares a belief in your God. So, you THINK it isn't ok according to your beliefs but you need to understand thats just your take on this world, but it is not steeped in fact. This also applies to Tom's point. The linguistic landscape has ALWAYS evolved and to think otherwise would be folly. You can't be a linguistics purist without realizing words themselves are malleable to the needs. Think of slang for example, circa 1980s. Bad used to mean not good, but then it suddenly meant something positive. Think of the word moot. It used to mean something worth debating. Now it is accepted as the complete opposite of that. Gender are sex are used interchangeably but they also describe different things so to lock onto only one accepted definition seems myopic.
@Ez-Bri-Z I'm sure you'd be interesting to debate with too, I've just had this same debate one too many times now, so I've kinda accepted that such ab ideological divide is likely to create certain impasses. Like, i mean this sincerely, and you don't have to answer it now, but what are we as a society meant to do when we can no longer agree on even a statement as basic and essential as "men are male and women are female", without getting dragged into these spirals of circular logic of "well you see, a man is a man if he feels like one, but also gender is subjective and therefore he was never a man to begin with, but oh wait, today he decided he's a man after all, but he already changed his driver's license and signed up for a women's MMA class and prefers the women's toilets, so now what do we do with him?". I realise I'm kinda pulling myself into this debate after all lol (can't help myself it seems). But the efforts to make redundant the fact of biological gender -- and replace it with a socially-constructed idea of undefined, unspecified, endlessly malleable "gender identity" dogma -- is producing far more confusion and discontent amongst the masses than it provides clarity for the few.
Fwiw a lot of that terrorising aspect comes from the media establishment and Big Tech companies like twitter who thrive on any form of human anger and hate being spread. The trans debate is but one vector of many along which those 'culture wars' are being fought, but for such a seemingly small group, it seems to produce an ungodly amount of vitriol towards anyone who the twitter horde deems to have got on the so-called 'trans community's' bad side.
Also I realise I've ping ponged between several points here, so if it's more expedient we can leave the matter of social media toxicity and cancel culture for some other debate. I just don't like being told that 2 + 2 must equal 5 because someone else felt offended by it equaling 4, y'know?
Yes, but counter point, not that either side is correct in doing it, but look at the trans suicide rates. There is already a lot of self hatred with how they were born. The last thing they need is someone jumping into their threads waving anti lgbt material in their face and claiming them to mentally ill. Do you think someone goes through everything they do willingly because its fun to them? They are trying to fix a biological error that occurred and most just want to exist and never be noticed. When people share their beliefs about how transgendered individuals can never be anything other than their birth sex, you are indirectly having a part in the over 40% suicide attempt rate. It seems a bit hypocritical to ask them to not infiltrate your bubble of thought with counter points but then do the same to them. I dont mean you specifically but had it been the case those words you speak carry weight. Maybe take that weight from their throats and instead apply it in a more constructive way like you and I are doing here.
Don't get me wrong, it's not my intention to beat down some random trans person's front door and throw down a psychological barrage at them over their personal life choices. I don't know enough about the intricacies of trans' mental health to comment pn how it ought be best protected. (Or at least, prevented from worsening.) Although I do wonder why that particular group has such a high suicide rate when plenty of other historically marginalised groups don't even come close to such suicide rates. Now, I'M not saying they "must be mentally ill", but when they're killing themselves in such high numbers, something's not adding up there. Plain d bigotry isn't sufficient explanation, because by that logic women and black people would have a 40% suicide rate throughout most of recorded history. My concern (ill-informed though it could be) is that trans people may be throwing in their lot with a band-aid explanation of gender fluidity that "explains away" some deeper issue that's left to eat away from the inside and lead to these cases pf depression and suicide. I read an article saying that depression of some capacity and identifying as trans are effectively inseparable. If an entire group of people all share a commonality in the form of depression, and a 40% commonality in eventual suicide, then perhaps we should consider that some sort of mental illness or physiological illness is the essential underlying commonality to that group? I'm not saying that "if Dave wants to identify as Diana and wear dresses when out doing grocery shopping, then he should be institutionalised for his own good". (continued)
The dark ages of mental health treatment should stay firmly in the past, and we should treat illnesses of mind as seriously and with the same dignity we treat illness of the body. But if Dave has a 40% higher risk of suicide built into that initial compulsion to 'become Diana', then shouldn't we act on the assumption that Dave might need some additional kind of help that's not covered by merely honouring his wishes to be called Mrs. Diana? I'd love nothing more than for the suicide rate to drop to zero. But even with hormone therapy and increased societal acceptance and anatomical sex change and legal mandates to enshrine altered sex identity, the suicide rate stays the same. That would indicate pretty clearly that the "cure" is no better than the "affliction". Just saying "yes" to every medical, social, or ideological request a trans person can think of doesn't appear to actually improve their long term health outcomes. Maybe, just maybe, we need to explore other avenues besides "don't worry Dave, this new law says that anyone who doesn't call you Diana can be thrown in prison. There, NOW will your intolerable depression and suicidal tendencies subside?" Dave deserves better options than that, surely.
@SomeGuyCalledTom bro go write a damn book, Jesus XD
And again, I return to the distinction between biological sex and this ephemeral 'gender identity', and the problem with pushing a narrative that assumes the biological truth should always subordinate to the subjective "self-identified truth". Here's what I don't get: why is it "progressive and brave" to assert that a discrepancy between biological sex and gender identity must be explained by the biology being "wrong" and the gender identity being the "true reality"? Yet its seen as "offensive" to even suggest that such discrepancy even MIGHT be explained by the gender identity being "incorrect" and the biology being "correct"? How do you even begin to determine the direction of causality? Like, fine, I can accept (at least as a linguistic premise) that biological sex and gender identity have different definitions. But... You know... Biological sex is still very much DEFINED. Its not negligible. In fact, trans or not, it constitutes a massive and irrevocable part in our life course -- our "destiny", if you will -- as humans. To assume it can be easily discarded just because someone theoretically "feels better" when it's discarded is really just the height of human arrogance. It took us hundreds of years to even BEGIN to understand our own nature as a species. And now we're just gonna declare for ourselves that biological sex essentially "doesn't matter" and is as arbitrary and "fixable" as a haircut or change of clothes? (continued)
And on that note, why the assumption that a trans person must be inhabiting a biological form that's in need of "correction"? I'd posit that this very self-perception and hatred of one's own biological vessel, if left untreated at the root cause of the self-perception, is more contributing to those suicide rates than any amount of mean words from the odd bigot hear and there. Perhaps it really is the self-perception that needs "correcting", and the body is exactly as nature made it to be. There's no "wrong" or "right" way to exist in corporeal form. You just inhabit the biological vessel that nature gives you, and however you make peace with that, is how you make peace with it. The logic cuts both ways. To say subjective feelings are always "correct" while biology cannot be trusted is really just the inverse position of the "anti-trans" people who claim "your feelings don't matter, Biology is all there is". Two sides of the same coin, you see? As the Christians put it, we should help people change what they can change, accept what they can't change, and grant them the wisdom to know the difference.
And on that final point of mine, I'll concede a certain amount of "middle ground", if only because I have disdain for taking absolute sides:Biology matters, AND feelings about identity matter. How we reconcile tensions between mind and body amongst the trans community is the critical issue here. But simply eliminating the biological component of their identity altogether is destructive to themselves and tp society at large. They wind up hating themselves more because "the sex change didn't make the bodily self-hatred go away", and society gets more divided because parents no longer have any idea what their kids are being taught ib biology class. Everyone loses when you pull the rug out from the biological components of sex & gender.
I'll definitely respond to this tomorrow but im tired so for tonight sleep and then tomorrow ill be back to continue!Have a wonderful evening!
Yep no worries, I do get into essay mode when I start typing haha, I'm amazed that anyone puts up with me let alone read all my shit at all 😅 enjoy your beauty sleep lol
@t-8900 RIP my editor, amiright? 😂
genderfluid is the most absurd thing as if we can just all decide to be whatever we want whenever we want.you know why gender fluid exists? as an excuse to respond to the people who point out people are often wrong about their trans bullshit and they detransition. it makes the entire concept of gender unfalsifiable... so the trans activists never have to admit they're wrong. that's the ONLY reason gender fluid exists as an ad hoc assertion
@Ez-Bri-Z the benchmark to being a woman is to be born with a vagina, be born without a penis, and barring any other abnormal mutationsthat's it
@007kingifrit she knows that I don’t even know why this is even a conversation
Oh man... morning comes too fast. Seriously. In either case, good morning!@SomeGuyCalledTom No, no! I love reading through those kinds of posts. It really gives me insight to others points of view than just a basic one or two line response. Typically the suicide rate is higher there because of things that are unique to their situation. "Gender-based victimization, discrimination, bullying, violence, being rejected by the family, friends, and community; harassment by intimate partner, family members, police and public; discrimination and ill treatment at health-care system are the major risk factors that influence the suicidal behavior among transgender persons."www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/(Sorry if the link doesn't work correctly. This site kinda sucks at times for that)Based on that data, the rates may not change because those factors not changing. Even if a transgender person is fully "passing" they still may feel a need to be in the closet which adds pressure. You as a straight male dont feel that kind of pressure specifically. I am afraid I can't speak competently to gender fluidity as I have not personally experienced it to know much about it. I'd rather not speculate to their mindset other than to say, I am fairly certain this isn't about being able to detransition and being "often wrong" as @007kingifrit suggests. Detransition rates are less than 5% overall for any kind of transgendered individual, regardless of their identity. Now I'd REALLY love for any gender fluid individual to speak on this to have a point of view that is more educated on that subject more than the three of us.
Now I am at the part of Dave/Diana and admittedly I kinda giggled at the hyperbole used of being thrown into prison for not using correct pronouns. We can't even get people thrown in prison for not using the correct your/you're so I think you are safe on free speech here in the US. It doesn't save you from social scorn one way or another in a country who has a majority support for LGBT, but I think you'll be able to avoid prison time lolAs for wrong/true reality, I'd love to oversimplify this with my own example. My hair is normally jet black with a birthmark in the top front of my hair line that gives me a silver streak. I've had it forever but it has always made me self conscious so I dye my hair to more of a brunette color. Does my hair biologically stop being jet black? No, of course not. I just feel better about myself correcting something that I was born with. When I look in photos I take, I don't see my jet black hair and assuming my roots aren't coming through, nobody else knows either. Nobody will bat an eye if I make that correction and identify as a brunette. Me changing my hair doesn't affect you in the slightest. Same could be said for them transitioning. They aren't changing your body. They are just correcting something they were born with that doesn't align to how they identify. That's gender identity in general. The debate isn't if they are biologically male or female. That is without contestation no matter how much they wish it otherwise. I wish they would have the capability to control that well, but for now, whether we agree with it or not, it isn't going to kill us to use preferred pronouns. We uselessly gender everything else in this world interchangeably. Why is this the battle line we draw in the sand? It's a pronoun. It'll be fine, I promise. I've been extending that courtesy to people for years and I haven't exploded or anything.
Correcting what nature gave us is done ALL the time. I, for example, am seriously contemplating getting a breast augmentation. There will be some who will tell me to just love my body. There will some who will be supportive, but ultimately you are right, in the end I have to make peace with my own body. For my own inner peace, I'll probably end up doing it. I can't change things like my height and ill just have to always be tall. I can however enhance other parts of what make me feel more feminine. That will help make me more comfortable in my own skin.The last part of it is again a bit of hyperbole and overgeneralization. Some people may be confused and disagree, but we don't all lose. We just learn a new way to exist in this world.
@007kingifrit thats an awful benchmark because those abnormalities happen a lot. Thats why generally it comes down to the chromosomes and even those aren't a perfect way of measuring it because of abnormalities there. Kev- its a conversation because we have differing points of view and the rest of us are contributing to a debate whether we agree or not. You are just playing hypeman to the others and not contributing much to this at all. I would highly recommend that if you can't keep up with it, that you move on somewhere else.
mutations are super super rare @Ez-Bri-Z and if they don't come with a phenotype they are even rarer (1 in several million)i am not going to change the definition of women for rare 1 in a million exceptions
It happens in 1 out of 80000 births which is more common than winning the lottery or dating a super model and yet everyone is fine with the idea of that. Still seems like a personal bias at that point.
@Ez-Bri-Z good morning to you! I've just gone through your comments and am still mulling over a couple of the finer points, so I may add on to my inevitable essay response as I flesh out my thoughts on some of the points you raised. But first of all I'd like to point out some of the areas on which we agree, since I think there's actually some reasonable points that I'm glad you raised, and I wouldn't want your takeaway from this conversation to be "oh that Tom sure uses a lot of words, but he doesn't support human rights for trans people so his words must be treated as suspect". (fwiw I see no reason to assume you'd jump to such a conclusion, as you've been a pretty class act thus far, disagreements aside. Nonetheless, let's establish some common ground anyways, before I move onto my adjacent contentions.)(cntd.)
@Ez-Bri-Z firstly, the suicide risk factors you raise are undoubtedly important and in need of properly addressing. I don't think we should use blunt force methods like shaming romantic partners into being okay with their partner transitioning to a different gender identity, or policing the use of pronouns ("you will call me an apache helicopter, or else I'll reign hell on you -- as apaches tend to do!"). But tbf I haven't seen you personally advocate for any such blunt instrument usage. It certainly does have its advocates though, but I'll come back to that. Point being, I would love to see solutions to this trans mental health epidemic come about "organically", through medical advancement, awareness raising, and nonjudgemental dialogue with the public like we're doing here (rather than the shaming tactics and cancel culture seen on social media, and increasingly bleeding over into disrupting real-world livelihoods). I do still wonder if this sense of bodily discontinuity that trans people experience could be an additional contributor to their generally poor mental health, and high suicide rates. (cnt.)
There's a fascinating book called "The Body Keeps the Score" that, among other things, dives into the thorny issue of how discontinuity between one's own body, and one's self-concept or self-identity, can cause a glut of serious health issues throughout life. That book is more focused on how trauma imprints itself on the body, but there are many parallels to what trans people go through, because essentially their predicament is a sense of not fully inhabiting or being at peace with their own bodily reality, a sense which is shared by war veterans or abuse victims suffering PTSD; the author puts forward a compelling premise that by treating the feelings of bodily discontinuity and detachment from the embodied self, you can work "bottom-up" to fix the mental health issues like PTSD, trauma, dissociative identity disorder, etc. The jury's still out on whether a similar protocol could help long-term health outcomes for trans people, but I think it at least merits investigation, because like I said, as awful as discrimination and societal shaming may be, gay people went through all that in the Stonewall era, and yet they seemed to come out of that much better off then they came in. Trans people, if going by the data alone, seem to get worse and worse health-wise the more treatment and societal "tolerance" they're afforded.
Secondly, and this relates to my last point just now, I think we can agree that at least on the individual level, the trans' predicament is that of "how to make peace with one's bodily reality?". And as you point out with the boob job and hair dye examples, people do (or choose to NOT do) all sorts of things to gain this sense of self-peace. And insofar as peace with oneself is the sole and primary goal -- and doesn't infringe on anyone else's peace or freedom of expression -- then I pretty much say "c'est la vie" to whatever treatment an individual believes will bring them the most peace. My contention lies with the people who just ignore one side of the issue and focus entirely on "my feels", if only because I find that overly simplistic and too one-dimensional to produce positive long-term outcomes. But moreso, my broader issue is with the (let's call them) the "pronoun police" and twitter mobs who claim to speak on behalf of all trans people, and aggressively push these extreme societal course-corrections. I'm glad you found my use of hyerbole with the pronoun point amusing, but at least here in the UK, it's a very real phenomenon. People have been jailed, businesses shut down, and jobs lost, and homes ransacked, and physical assaults carried out, all because someone said "I don't agree that trans women are real women". That to me doesn't seem like the actions of a group that wants nothing but to "live in peace", when their actions suggest the total opposite.
But this brings me on to a broader point: I think it's important to delineate between talking about trans people as INDIVIDUALS, and the so-called "trans community" and the "trans activists".Here's my deal: if a trans person feels like they'll live in peace if they just have a different gender on their driver's license, and wear high heels to work, and have silicon implants and/or hormonal treatments that's paid out their own pocket (and not draining funds from public health crises like the cancer epidemic), then I say "each to their own". I've seen some of these "just let me live in peace" trans people speak in interviews, and they can be total class acts. And a class act will always have my respect, or at very least, my basic courtesy. If Dave tells me he'd like to be called Diana, then I'll happily oblige as long as he's not FORCING me to do so and being a dick about it. Trans or not, I refuse to cowtow to assholes. So the problem isn't the fact of trans people existing. The problem is when a trans person uses public platforms, political pressure, social shaming, and cancel culture to perpetuate asshole-ish behavior in an effort to affect the collective consciousness through manufactured consent and threat of duress for those whom are noncompliant. That's asshole behavior, so I'm not gonna reward it.
But okay, let's assume we're not talking about the assholes and the cancel culture fuckwits. Let's assume we're talking about peaceful ol' Diana (formerly Dave) who just feels that; despite his biological male-ness, he'd just be more peaceful if he could make his outer self conform more closely to the woman he "feels like" on the inside. In fact there's some amount of clinical precendent for such a 'gut feeling', because neuroscientists have long known that the human brain is as 'gendered' as human genitalia, and we also know that some people are born with "female-like" brain structures despite having male anatomy. I'd still maintain that in the eyes of science and the law and general society, that person will always be fundamentally, male. But convincing THEM they're "fundamentally a male" is likely a failing battle, because they just don't FEEL like that statement is true-- or at least, it's not the WHOLE truth to them. It's not a truth they can embody and be at peace with.
So to me it seems, at the individual level, it's entirely appropriate to give gender identity it's time on the lectern, so the trans person can have that conversation with themselves of "what do I need personally to be able to live in peace with myself?". Equally though, we can't ONLY discuss this at the individual level, because "no person is an island" as they say. It's not like any single trans person can keep their personal choices entirely seperated from the society in which they're entangled by the fact of their existence, and their participation in civilisation. Humans live amongst humans, and to some extent, we need to be reading off the same hymn sheet. Or at very least, we need to agree on what the words within those hymns even mean to begin with. And so we come back to the original question: do you consider a transwoman an actual woman, and a transman an actual man? (cntd.)
First, I'd like to start by saying that I am LOVING this conversation. Far too many times this breaks down into a name calling fest and offers no substance. I really hope those who take the time to read both points of view take something away from this that challenges their own points of view. Blunt force methods are not the right answer here. Honestly the best approach is the way a lot of tv advertisers do it, through a steady stream of normalizing the idea of their product, showing the benefits, adding in levity to the topic and finally either adding a cute baby or puppy or scantily clad women to drive home the point. Lol joking aside, I do truly believe we should all be able to voice our opinions. I really do. As I've said, I hate the idea of echo chambers. My only consistent message is "dont be a dick". You don't have to agree with their decisions, but just making someone's day a little better or at least not worse by using the preferred pronoun can add up to a better mental state for all of us. Unfortunately we only tend to see in the immediate most times. Very few look at the butterfly effect of those micro aggressions we make daily. Now with that freedom we crave for ourselves, we enter a social contract to let others do the same and thats where "cancel culture" and mob mentality come in. We are tribal creatures. On our own we might be more given to reason, but when finding like minded individuals we resort to baser instincts. This is one of the reasons I detest the idea of echo chambers. My ideas and thoughts are not always going to be the correct ones. Surrounding myself with yes men only feeds into a narcissistic mindset of "I'm always right".
and all the above taken into consideration, I say still that the answer is "no". I think it's better for everyone -- trans people included -- that a separate category be opened up within the lexicon. And that category already exists: it's called "trans". How convenient right? We already HAVE a common vocabulary for trans people! Problem solved! They don't seem to mind it, in fact THEY want US to acknowledge their 'trans-ness'. I don't think it needs to go any further to the point we have to twist our own logic in circles trying to convince ourselves that "trans women are real women". If that were the case, they wouldn't be TRANS. (trans = transition, trans female = male transitioned to female, etc.) The term says everything it needs to, without making any false conflations between self-perceived gender identity and biological reality. A "real woman" is one who is biologically born female AND identifies as female. Someone who is biologically a male but identifies as female cannot, by definition, be a "real woman". It's actually insulting to women to suggest otherwise.
So to conclude my thoughts: trans people are PEOPLE just like us, and as such deserve to be free from harassment, abuse, and discrimination. They deserve to have their gender identity treated as at least being worthy of further inquiry and investigation. And they deserve to change from Dave to Diana without being beaten up and murdered because they failed to disclose as such within 30 seconds of an interaction with the opposite sex. (Although they should disclose as such if they have romantic intentions with someone moving forwards, since that's kind of important to disclose, since not everyone shares their conviction about gender identity being a valid replacement for their biological birthright. In other words, most guys would be understandably bummed out if they caught feelings for a 'woman', only to find out she's got a 9 inch shlong and an adam's apple that could cut steel.)
And the distinction between "trans male/female" and "real male/female" becomes increasingly important to the degree that trans people must coexist within society's existing structures. In that earlier example another user shared, a female MMA fighter got a skull fracture (a fucking SKULL FRACTURE!!!) because a barely-trained trans-female (M2F) just pulverised her using the upper body power that could only be gleaned from a lifetime of being a biological male (and an army veteran who presumably was trained to kill and destroy the enemy, WHILST HE WAS MALE AND IDENTIFIED AS SUCH). How can that be good for women, when female competitors no longer know if "today will be the day I get brained by a man in a wig"? How is that a win for feminism, exactly? This is just one aspect of why "trans" categories should be treated as distinct from the default categories of "male" and "female" (which, I remind you, apply wholeheartedly to the vast majority of the global population.).
okay I'm done haha, take from that what you will, if nothing else I can't say I haven't explained my side of the debate lol
I'd venture to say those are all valid points about dysphoria having negative effects on a person health wise. I don't really see a reason why it wouldn't. I would love to see the data you refer to that transgendered individuals get worse health-wise the more tolerance they receive. That seems antithetical to having a positive sphere of influence improving mood although, ultimately, the final say in mood is up to the individual I suppose. I have incredibly supportive friends who have known my wife and I for years, but there are times I still question myself as to why I dont have any feelings sexually for guys but yet I can fall in love with them the same as women. That kind of disconnect resonates with me in a way. I will say though, I beg you forgive me for I ran into the typical trappings of "hurr durr, everyone is American". For that, I am sorry. We do enjoy a freedom that not everyone else gets to experience and sometimes my naivete shines through. People should be able to say what they want on both sides and there should also be weight and consequences behind those actions, but the mob mentality of ruining an entire life on free speech is horrible. We should condemn hate speech where it is spoken, but we should not perpetuate that cycle and become the vehicle of "justice" that was referenced in the first place.
Ah, activism. Yes. Both the boon and bane of me being a feminist. There are times where activism has its place. I am very outspoken on this site about gender expectations, women's rights and LGBT in general. Some would consider me an activist. I don't feel I am much different in those conversations as I am here. On the other hand, you have those who argue back, slamming their fist on the pulpit of their stance, acting just like the activists they claim to hate. In my case as a feminist, I have to try and remind people the difference between a radical feminist vs a feminist. There are radicalized versions of every kind of status in this world, including lgbt and specifically transgendered in general. We just have to understand they are a vocal minority. Unfortunately, those who don't agree with that mindset still get lump summed into the movement as a whole. It isn't fair and always an internal battle within all groups.
I will say I HATE the idea of qualifying a persons existence like that. Yes they are transgender, but why boil someone down to their sexual organs? Why do you feel the need to say they are a transgenderman or woman. No, they are just a man or woman based around their identity. Could you imagine being referenced by something you don't feel comfortable with in how people address you? "Hey here comes crossdresser Steve.""Oh look it is tiny dick Mike"Seems kinda cruel to force a title on to someone like that. They are just men and women who, among all the other qualities both good and bad, also just happen to be transgender. I can say as a woman, I am not offended in the slightest if a MtF person says they are a real woman. Is it affecting me at all? Nope. There are people who claim they are the second coming of Christ. "Ok well nice to meet you Jesus, but im just trying to buy some tomatoes", is my mindset on it.
"Blunt force methods are not the right answer here. Honestly the best approach is the way a lot of tv advertisers do it, through a steady stream of normalizing the idea of their product, showing the benefits, adding in levity to the topic and finally either adding a cute baby or puppy or scantily clad women to drive home the point."As something of an "advertising guy" myself, you're speaking my language here haha. I do think the trans community needs to fire their "PR and marketing department" so to speak lol. It's a tricky balance because this stuff can easily fall into propagandizing territory. But any form of advertisement can become propagandised, given the right milieu. I think openness and transparency and compromise is the way for the trans community to go. We can certainly agree their current strategy of "shame and cancel anyone who challenges us!" is toxic AF and ultimately contrary to their long-term aims of peaceful existence for trans individuals. (Unless that's not actually the goal of the activist's, which wouldn't surprise me, considering how feminazis try to hijack the feminist movement for political aims that have nothing to do with quality of life for actual women IRL.)
"I will say though, I beg you forgive me for I ran into the typical trappings of "hurr durr, everyone is American". For that, I am sorry. We do enjoy a freedom that not everyone else gets to experience and sometimes my naivete shines through." No worries, it's natural to associate issues with the country we see those issues manifest in first-hand. I couldn't tell you the current state of feminism in rural India any more than you could tell me the state of trans-cis relations in London, United Kingdom.
Oh 100%!I'm all for open dialogue and civil discussion. I fear not many share our love for it despite our opposite stances but if we can find that place to sit down and TALK out our differences without insults, we'd find we can find some sort of middle ground. I find most of those radicalized versions of every movement are not "for the cause" but more for hearing themselves talk and feeling useful while mostly just fighting for their own personal gain.
"We just have to understand they are a vocal minority. Unfortunately, those who don't agree with that mindset still get lump summed into the movement as a whole. It isn't fair and always an internal battle within all groups."On that we very much agree, and I hope the extreme minorities will get tuned out rather than amplified, so that civil discourse can reign supreme. (Chance'll be a fine thing, eh?) The Streisand Effect is real: there'd be much less animosity towards trans people if the trans "community" and social media bubbles didn't send the most toxic voices upstream, and the reasonable voices downstream.
"I will say I HATE the idea of qualifying a persons existence like that. Yes they are transgender, but why boil someone down to their sexual organs? Why do you feel the need to say they are a transgenderman or woman. No, they are just a man or woman based around their identity. Could you imagine being referenced by something you don't feel comfortable with in how people address you?"Well, I feel like this is where disagreement just boils down to simple old semantics. Like, as long as we can agree at an axiomatic principle that a "transitioned" person has indeed undergone a transition (hence becoming a trans male or trans female, whether or not the terminology enters everyday usage), then I see no issue with defaulting to just "he" or "she" or "man" or "woman" as an everyday casual shorthand. I wouldn't go around being like "hey look, there goes trans female Diana, formerly male Dave!" any more than Diana would be like "hey look, there goes Straight White Male Tom!". A trans person's "trans-ness" is a PART of their identity, by their own wilful discretion, but it's not their WHOLE identity. My dad works with a cross-dresser, and although he had to adjust to that in the initial days, he now just uses the same linguistic signifiers for the crossdressing colleague that he'd use for a female colleague. (cntd.)
They both implicitly recognise the fact of the cross-dressing / gender-bending, but it's not like it needs to be constantly referenced or brought up unprovoked. It's just a tacit unspoken agreement of "if it helps you live and work in peace, I'll use female pronouns for you and not think any more of it". But equally, if that coworker came in one day claiming they're "just as much a female as women who were born female", then we've left the everyday parameters of social politeness, and have entered a territory where certain fundamental precepts about gender identity are on the table. And I don't think I should have to agree to those precepts with the same readiness that I'd call someone a prefered pronoun as a matter of social expedience or kindness.
I think that maybe one side of that is being taken out of context and im not sure which side is doing it. Are they fully, biologically female/male? Of course not, if they were I'm willing to bet they'd be thrilled (except in those cases of gender fluid or non binary of course). Are they a woman just like every other woman. It depends on your mindset. If we are talking about biological then as I said before, no. If I said spiritually and emotionally? Ok sure, I'd be down for that. Yeah their life experiences are gonna be different, but then again everyone's life experiences are different even among the same sex.
"Are they fully, biologically female/male? Of course not." Then by definition they can't be "just like" a woman who was born female, or a man who was born male. But sure, IF we're zooming into the realm of the purely emotional and psychological, then yeah, people can basically determine themselves to be whatever term they feel most fitting. No skin off my arse lol. But that personal definition of their own emotionally derived identity-signifier shouldn't be enshrined in the collective consciousness as an absolute statement of their selected gender being as natural a "fact" as someone who was actually BORN into that gender. I think you and I are essentially in agreement here, but still there's this semantic difference of opinion over what makes a "real" man or woman "real" in the first place, and what makes a transgender "true" to their chosen identity. I feel like the psycho-linguistic aspect of this debate is a bottomless well, because in linguistics there's this seperation between the signifier (the word used to point to a thing) and the signified (the thing being pointed at). Signifiers may change, but the signified must, at some point of delineation, have an instrinsic nature within the objective reality, regardless of whether our personal definition of the signifier aligns with that reality. And yet this is the central issue of linguistics: nobody really "owns" any single signifier, and in some sense, the words themselves are just arbitrary. But they're also NOT, because they're the only tool we collectively have as humans to point to objective phenomena or things in the world we inhabit. So when we can't agree on the semantic delineations between a "real woman" and a "trans woman", then despite any amount of good intentions, no real progress can happen, unless we're to then accept that some people will simply exist on a linguistic island of their own making, with no meangingful import to the broader social universe surrounding them.
Lmao that's a really fancy way of saying, "look we all know there is a difference, but everything is so convoluted these days that who the hell knows what is right?"I think my hangup on using real woman is the definition. If we talk about at a biological level, even that is not a clean delineation between other identifiers. Some define "real woman" by her ability to live up to expected gender roles. (For example, she isn't a real woman unless she quits her job and stays home to take care of the kids).I think the other issue I have with it is the connotation that somehow makes transwomen "fake women". They aren't fake women, they just weren't biologically born as one.Also, I apologize to all my transmasc friends out there. I know transmen get overlooked in this discussion a lot and don't get a lot of love but please don't feel like I dont recognize you. Y'all are just as loved by me!
So it's boiling down to semantics, after all, right? Maybe the "real woman/ real man" dichotomy is just adding extra confusion. I think most people will generally accept a clean delineation between "male", "female", and "trans / non-binary". But when those definitions start to bleed into one another, of course it's gonna create confusion. And the goal of all language should always be clarity, not confusion. So semantics aside, we should aim to create clarity for as many people as possible, regardless of how that pans out at the individually self-defined level of personal idiolect.
Of course it is, but I think you, more than maybe a lot of others here, appreciate the weight of words. Semantics or not, a slight variation in addressing someone can take it from a normal interaction to a dysphoric one quickly. In the end though, I think that 110 posts in to my initial post, we can agree that we have the same general mindset when it comes to most of this and to me that is an amazing feeling. I'm legit smiling because I got to have that debate with you I wanted and things remained pretty chill 😌 Thank you for all of it!
Oh for sure, I mean, I've always been fascinated by how subtle word choices (or even subtle inflection changes within the same words) can produce vastly different meanings and consequences. The fact that these word choices are non-negligible and have tangible human effects does seem to cut both ways; trans people and... what would you say... "non-trans" (?) people should both be conscious of how their word choices shape the world around them, and contextualise their place within it. But all that said and done (in no few comments lol), I'm glad conversations like this can take place, and I'm glad we got to bounce our ideas and disagreements off each other. If I'd known how this discourse would've shaped up, I wouldn't have come into your original comment with such a loaded assumption of your general position. Tbh I expected the same old ideological talking points I'd seen copied and pasted a hundred other places already, but what we got was something far more stimulating and nuanced than that. I can only apologise to the people who probably got tired of seeing my name pop up in their notifications xD
I'm hoping they just feel more enriched by the conversation instead of spiteful of the notifications
True :)Pleasure talking with you!
You as well! 😊
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Transcontinental TransfatTranslationTransfer... hmm
i know those words and i knew someone couldnt wait to be a smartass about it. We both know what i was referring to so im not worried about all that
😊I couldn't resist, sorry lol
That's not a good reason but I see your point.
At all lmao. I know grown ass straight men who pee sitting down 😂
@DizzyDesii: Medically it's better to drain your bladder. We all pee sitting down anyways when we go the bathroom for #2 lol
@DizzyDesii so do I and i give them a hard time about it XD
@DizzyDesii I pee sitting down but I can also pee standing up.
even then they aren't really the thing they claim to be. surgery just changes your appearance
Be sure factually they aren't actual woman... That's jus truth... And if the polls said any different then that would mean everyone's retardrd. So I'm glad most people aren't as stupid as I thought
The poll is encouraging I meant. Society is scaring me.
gender doesn't make a person a man or woman in the first place. It's arbitrary as it's defined by society. That's why biology decides who is a man or woman. Only different is someone deciding they are the opposite sex from their own perspective but that's not concrete. So basically only difference between a very feminine flamboyant gay man who wears make up, dresses in women's clothes. But doesn't have operations and still sees himself as a man because he doesn't take his feminine behavior to mean's he's a woman inside. But just a man with very feminine traits. Vs a born male with same traits but sees his very feminine traits to "mean he's a woman inside" and wants to be a woman. Same for butch lesbians.
@brennanhuff ok that’s ur opinion i do not agree, i think our biological sex is equivalent to our gender🤷♀️ And its more than the superficial things you’ve mentioned
Gender can be argued to be cultural. What the hell is male gender or female gender? There's nothing inherent there. It's just a matter of perspective, that's not concrete. You can't argue what is female vs male based on sex, because the chromosomes and sex organs show that. Masculine mindset and behaviour or expression does not make a person a man just like feminine mindset and behavior. It's just apparently trans people see it that way, but that's just their perspective which is not inherent. It's arbitrary
@brennanhuff there’s a lot that is inherent starting from our body shape, strength to our ability to birth and men to not. these structures were formed in society for a reason they fit our biological being. Period.
there is no distinction between them. they both mean the same thing.
@007kingifrit While "transgender" may now be used widely for both, there was a difference.A transsexual is a person who has undergone sexual reassignment surgery. A transgender may be living as the opposite sex from their anatomy but may not have undergone any sexual reassignment surgeries.You were not born when tennis pro Dr. Richard Raskind / Renée Richards was in the headlines...www.si.com/.../renee-richards-gender-identity-politics-transgender-where-are-they-nowSo, Richard Raskind / Renée Richards is a transsexual and is now also called a transgender.But, Bruce Jenner / Caitlyn Jenner is not a transsexual and just a transgender.As for transsexual being offensive, I don't care who the fuck it offends. As a scientist and engineer, I like accuracy and precision because Nature does not forgive errors. Obfuscation may be politically correct so some people don't get hurt, but, tough, grow-up. The other 7 billion of us were not put on this planet to serve you.
@Mortdikeuu It is much easier for you to pass and be accepted as a man (as long as you only have small to medium breasts) than it is for a trans woman to pass and be accepted as a woman. It is easier for you to wear any clothes of choice; and use the preferred restroom, changing room, and exercise facilities of choice.The only noticeable difference is that you are unable to stand and use the urinal to pee. However, that is not a real disadvantage as it is rather disgusting and the men's restrooms have fewer stalls; and it is much more pleasant to sit.
Also, a penis can be annoying and be a disadvantage in many ways.
@Mortdikeuu Your posts are confusing. On this post you claim to be a genetic female who chooses to be seen as a man. Upon looking at some of your other posts; it appears you are the opposite. Which are you?
No such thing as "transman" or "transwoman" or "transgender" or "transsexual"
live and let live sounds nice. but while it feels good it doesn't do good in the worldthe actions of others affect you. especially if you share a society with them. their ideas impact you, their way of life will shape yours. there is no living and let livewhat about the real girl raped in a girls bathroom at a highschool in loudon county this week in virginia? that wouldn'th ave happened if you hadn't lived and let live
but that's not quite the thing the quesiton is asking
@007kingifrit I think there are too many things that I don’t know in order to say definitively.
I'm dead serious. I was watching the news and this moron actually thinks a transwoman is a actual woman. He or she twitted. Their name is Dana White, not the president of UFC.
You know that this is the work of the left. the Democrat party wants nothing more than the complete abolition of Judeo-Christian morality and views. Keep voting blue and then complaining about what you helped to bring about
Is that first picture the son/daughter of Will smith and his "wife"