The Misinformed Idea of Gender as a "Choice"

The doctor (Dr. Money) who created this idea that we "pick our gender" was a fraud.

In the 1960's he had a boy regendered as a girl (completely *all genitals removed) and he was raised as a girl never knowing that he was actually a boy.

He was forced to believe all the typical female girl ideas. Playing with dolls, not being agressive, etc.

But no matter how much they tried to force the gender, "she" would always show boy traits and want to play with trucks and "boy" based toys. "She" was more agressive. Etc.

Eventually the child became so agressive and depressed because he was being told he was a female and he didn't feel like he should. The parents finally broke down and told the child that they were born a male and turned into a female.

He instantly changed back to a boy and got a medically created penis. He finally felt normal and started to live a somewhat normal life. Except for the torment of what had been done to him which lead him into drugs. He eventually killed himself.


Gender is NOT a social construct!

People who claim this is a scientificly proven truth are basing their stance on THIS doctors corrupt papers.


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Most Helpful Girl

  • You are right on the part that gender is biological... However what toys you play with or hobbies are not part of your gender and that is the bullshit that makes people think "oh I like Barbie and makeup I must need to chop my dick off" they are part of personality and that is determined by a number of factors. I am biologically female, no gender issues, don't look remotely masculine... I still had "boyish hobbies", I have a "boyish job" and "boyish personality" because I was raised around mostly men and spent my childhood competing and working. In my early teen years they pumped me full of estrogen because they thought my hormones were imbalanced because I liked building things, working on cars, and getting into fights. Gender is biological, that has nothing to do with what you enjoy.

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Most Helpful Guy

  • We just discussed this in social psych the other day. Same exact story actually. But I do in fact think gender roles are social construct and I am quite confused because what you presented... kinda... proves it. Just because he ended up with no penis at first, he was still a guy anyways. Maybe, if we were not so pushy on girls with "girl toys" and guys with "guy toys" and all that BS, he wouldn't have became depressed? If society from the beginning was just like, we are ALL humans, just slightly diff parts, and created things that were all the same for all humans regardless of gender, maybe things would be better? Fuck the social "norms." If a guy likes dolls, oh fuckin well. If a girl likes sports... that already seems fucking accepted already anyways!!! Girls play sports, games, join the military, work, change tires, shoot guns, etc and I really see no complaints. Seriously. I really never do. Like ever. But a guy DARES play with a doll or likes ballet, they are shunned by just about everyone. Complete BS. I remember asking my co workers 1. If they would let their boy child play with dolls and 2. if not, WHY? Their responce? No. Why? He'd get bullied. So... is it REALLY his fault? Or the bullies? Why would it be right to bully for ANYTHING? Answer: It never is. Adults believe the Earth is FLAT. I don't see people bullying them for THAT! AND, that's something debunked for like 200 years! Still, not NEAR as harsh bullying on that as there is for a situation like a guy that plays with dolls or likes ballet. When I was a kid, I watched things on PBS or stuff like Full House. Always was more into so called "girly" stuff in some ways. Rejected sports, and various "guy" shows until later on Also liked reading. I was raised with two sisters. And guess what? I can get along with people quite well. At least intelligent ones. When I had my first girlfriend, she said her, her family and even her little bro (a guy who HATED every other of her bfs) liked me. Even dated somebody who flat out rejected me at first. In the end, having some "girly" influences on me ended up being a good thing. No harm in learning to reject sports or deciding to be open to boy, girl, etc while dating. (yes, I consider myself bi basically, sorry, not sorrry). I feel a lot of this BS stems from the Adam and Eve theory in the end. Once you trash Adam and Eve and some other biblical elements, it's a lot clearer. Helped me plenty.

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    • They do studies on infants and girls gravitate towards toys like dolls and stuffies.
      Boys gravitate towards stuff like trucks and blocks.
      The statement "we were not so pushy on girls with "girl toys" and guys with "guy toys"..." is a complete joke. We don't PUSH these ideas we simply adhere to what naturally works.

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    • you are only making a fool out of yourself. satire , when done properly has a point. first of all you don't even have a point. and you still overdid it anyway.
      i thought you were a girly man, but you are either a ret#rd or a child.

      once you graduate preschool, we can talk about intellect.
      keep roasting yourself in the meantime.

    • @lord_chilled Ah the ones who don't get satire and pretend they do. Sad little souls. Dear sir, if only maybe you'd show an example of better satire/sarcasm yourself! But alas, too much of a noble manly man? Or at least that's what your mirror tells you. And I guess mirrors have a better opinion then anyone else. Is part of satire and sarcasm not roasting yourself? Lord Chilled? More like Lord Needs to chill out LOL. It's so fun to see a boy who thinks he's so big, strong, and smart use ad hominem to prove it. Quite adorable. They say somebody who hates somebody else so much could be hiding deep love, but sorry, you are just not my type hun. Bless your little heart.

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What Girls Said 10

  • Gender is a cultural role it is absolutely not inherent. Sex is inherent but what that is “supposed” to mean varies from culture to culture.

    You’re conflating sex and gender and calling gender physiological. Gender i societal term coined by feminists in 1900s meant as an exemplificaton of cultural pressure /expectation /constraints as to how any given sex “ought” to behave. It is not indicative of how any given sex”does” behave. It later became popularized in mainstream culture to indicate how a person if any given sex avoid and or dies behave. The irony is it’s original purpose was meant to expose the intricate implementation of sexism by arbitrarily calling any desired behavior a natural difference, instead led to the naturalization of the conceit if gender.

    Gender us behavior not sex and three us no say pricing behavior is natural to a persons sex rather than the expected behavior of a persons sex.

    I don’t think we can choose sex but I can understand people wanting out from the constraints of the roles of their sex. If gender roles were not so reiebtjessku enforcered in the first place and people fejt freedom to be themselves without being stigmatized, I don’t think “trans” would be at all necessary. Gender created a prison and is surprised when people reject it. You can not make yourself a slave... If your exoected behavior is not who you are and the only way to be yourself and be accepted by society is to change your sexual, well I guess thst is what many will do.

    Imagine fir a moment what to you is the quintessential behavior for a real (stereotypical) Woman. NOW imagine in order to work date have a family become successful have friends play sports follow your hobbies travel without harrasajevt , you as you are now had to follow the expected permitted behavior for what you think a real feminine Wonan would be.

    It’s all very easy to say people are creating problems when there are nobe, when your cage fits your ideal life. A person who is conscious of being condemned to a life of alienation will not see it as not a problem abd WILL fight against it bc we can not willingly make ourselves slaves.

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    • NOPE.
      If it were a cultural thing, the studies on INFANTS wouldn't show that boys generate towards BOY toys and girls generate toward GIRL toys!
      Infants are not old enough to be socially swayed. Which is also what this video proves.

    • Most medical definitions has sex, and gender as the exact same definition.

  • Why can't we just be happy how we are?

    I find it destructive that we feel the need to change ourselves to feel comfortable in our own skin. Why does one feel so insecure about their gender in the first place?

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    • Well he didn't have a say in the matter and our society keeps force feeding us a lie. If they simply acknowledged gender as being biological then they would leave people alone which in turn would allow them to not get hung up on gender but rather just live their lives.

  • I've read about that. If you read the whole thing you'll read what a sick fuck that doctor was. He should've had his license revoked and thrown in jail.
    The other brother still raised as male ended up killing himself too. No doubt because of this "doctor".

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  • What you’re talking about is altering a child’s body, forcing it to believe certain ideas and forcing stereotypically gendered things on it.

    That’s NOT the same as an adult saying they’d feel more comfortable in the opposite’s gender’s body.

    Why do you care so much? If they’re an adult they can do whatever the fuck they want to their body, regardless of if i find it ridiculous or not.

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    • John Money's theory was that gender is a social construct, as in that it's entirely learned and that it has nothing to do with biology. The idea that the differences between boys and girls have to do with raising boys with footballs and girls with dolls for example. He thought that he could raise a boy to be a girl if he treated him like a girl, and it didn't work - in fact it drove both Bruce Reimer and his twin brother (who wasn't experimented on) to suicide. Yet Money continued to claim that he'd done so successfully, and this is where the idea that gender is separate from sex comes from. It's still taught as fact today, in fact when she went to university they tried to tell my girlfriend that he lived on happily as a woman when she knew it was a lie.

      It matters because it's not a fact, has never been proven to be true, and as shown with this experiment it can fuck people up mentally.

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    • Of course when they say they "raised him as a girl" they mean stereotypically. It was just an experiment to John Money.

      What also matters to me is that people aren't influenced by lies. His experiment almost drove Bruce (who was being raised as "Brenda") to suicide at 13 years old, that's why his parents told him the truth. He thought he was going insane because he had no idea what was going on the whole time.

      But John Money continued to teach it as if it was a success as I mentioned. This is another reason it matters - why wouldn't you want to oppose harmful teachings from a liar and a complete nutcase being taught as fact?

    • You are arguing something completely different. If your trying to argue transgenderism then technically you are acknowledging gender as biology not social construct. You cannot identify as the opposite gender if you have been socially conditioned to be one gender as by definition if gender was a social construct then social pressure would be the only thing causing some one to behave in the so called "stereotypical" fashion. Transgender people identify as the opposite sex DESPITE social pressures showing an innate biological origin for their gender identity (its also incredibly rare). This is the point being made, that if it was social then raising an infant boy as a girl, giving it gender reassignment surgery etc. should have resulted in a person who believed they where a girl. It didn't do that though and not only did he continue to identify as a boy despite his conditioning, him being forced to function differently resulted in him becoming so distraught and troubled he killed himself

  • Goodtake. The idea that gender is a choice is a social construct. Biology is not a social construct.

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  • Agreed 👍👍

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  • Nice

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  • Everyone who isn't nuts or brainwashed knows this.

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  • Agree for the most part.

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  • Biological gender is not a social construct, but gender roles definitely are a social construct, you need to learn the difference.

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    • Actually, I don't need to learn. Roles are NOT a social construct. Roles were defined by the default actions of people.
      In countries where people are given every opportunity to choose, women almost always go for typical female roles and males go for male roles.
      Even in infants, boys go for object-based toys (Trucks/guns/etc) and girls go for the humanity toys. (dolls/stuffed animals/etc)

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    • Alright, it's becoming quite clear you're not all there, mentally speaking. I use capital letters to emphasize things.

      We're going around in circles, it's not called the male sex hormone because only men have it, brightspark. It's called that because that's the hormone that gives men their defining features and is the hormone of masculinity. I'm repeating myself.

      And why the hell are you having a go a lilaqua now? She was on your side, you nutcase. And sorry, your threats to report people for spamming will be just treated as nuisance reports. No one was spamming, we were having a casual debate/conversation and we'd actually finished talking. You're the one continuing this. If you don't like getting notifications, mute this post. And if you don't like people commenting on an opinion you leave, don't comment on people's mytakes.

    • @Kkaos Oh I'm here alright, and of course you are using capital letters to emphasize things, you were emphasizing MALE HORMONE, not "Men produce far greater levels of testosterone than women", obviously implying that testosterone is irrelevant in woman's body.
      You are repeating your chauvinist nonsense.
      Nope, she wasn't "on my side", in fact, I think she is just one of your fake profiles used to spam on other people's opinions and troll around pretending to "debate".
      I never mute my opinions, because I can't stand trolls like you, this is NOT YOUR MyTake, therefore - you can "debate" with "other people" on your own opinion, NOT on MINE, I don't care what you think, I never asked you for a comment, this is my comment, get it? Now sod off!.

What Guys Said 28

  • Yep. Gender is determined by genetics. If you want to call into question the social/societal norms of what it means to be a boy or a girl, fine go have that argument with whomever you'd like. But don't be an idiot. If you see an issue, it's an issue with what society considers acceptable for each gender. I think that's the motivation behind many who ascribe to being "gender fluid." You want to be a boy one moment and a girl the next? Since most people would not be referring to suddenly having a vagina/boobs or a penis/pecs I must assume they mean in terms of how they act and such. In that case the issue is with what society sees as making one a "boy" or a "girl."

    Common people... stop making up more issues than you need. You don't need to be accepted as a new gender, you just need the people around you to accept you as the person you are even if you don't seem average/normal. The issue seems to be acceptance and the false idea that certain behaviors can only be accepted as a member of a certain gender. I sincerely believe this idea only serves to create more unnecessary issues than are needed. Deal with the real issue, don't make up one.

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  • Several issues here:

    1. Your entire argument is a Fallacy of Origins. The fact that Dr. Money was a monster has absolutely no impact on the validity of his research. This makes your entire argument shaky.

    2. Since Dr. Money's original publication in 1969, there have been hundreds, if not thousands of follow up studies done all over the world. If his research was invalid, it would have been proven out decades ago. Contrary to your argument, the vast, vast majority of all subsequent science on this issue reaches the conclusion that gender is in fact a largely societal construct. So when you say "people who claim this is a scientifically proven truth are basing their stance on this doctors corrupt papers", you are incorrect - we are basing it on the large body of work done since Dr. Money that corroborates his research (in areas other than the David Reimer case).

    3. You use Dr. Money's story as proof against the underlying concept of transgenderism: that gender is a social construct. This exhibits a misunderstanding of the topic - David Reimer was an intersex person, not a transsexual. Dr. Money literally induced gender dysphoria in David by attempting to raise him as the wrong gender. This is precisely the same thing that happens to most transgender people in the world, and the fact that David's psychological gender matches his biological sex is not terribly relevant given the large number of others in the world for whom that isn't the case. It's proof positive that you cannot force someone to live as a gender that doesn't match their psychological gender.

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    • Did you not look at what happened? He said gender is a social construct and thus used societal pressure to raise a boy as a girl. The end result was the boy identifying as a boy despite society telling him otherwise. That shows conclusively and beyond reproach that his research was in fact flawed and invalid. You cannot say his research proves gender is a social construct if the socia construct was ignored in favor of the biological gender. Thats just absurd. No research has ever proved that gender is a social construct, its shown conclusively and with no room for argument that its biological from the affects hormones have on behavior, to the existence of transgenderism, to the significant brain structure differences between the genders: www.cam.ac.uk/.../males-and-females-differ-in-specific-brain-structures
      Their is literally no legitimate debate, we know that biology determines gender.

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    • That is the stupidest argument I've heard, I gave you a link with the data I mentioned, you tried to act as if it was just a news article with no reference to anything else which is absurd. As for the rest of your argument, I can't even stomach reading it anymore if every single bit of data showing we are biologically different which itself affects how we perceive and respond to the world, our personal motivations etc, then it shows that our behavior is gendered (also all the psychological studies that show our behavior is gendered and can be shown before the age of 3) then that would mean our gender is biological. Their is no discussion this is just fact deal with it.

    • @hellionthesagereborn

      The link you posted is literally the University of Cambridge's promotional research news site. But, as I said, it does link to the study I think you meant to refer to.

      "also all the psychological studies that show our behavior is gendered and can be shown before the age of 3" -- what studies? You are once again pointing to something you haven't provided a source for.

      If our brain structure influences our gender, then why doesn't this article - or any other - say so? Why does it, in fact, say the *exact opposite* of what you've posited... that they can not infer behavior from brain structure? You're reading your own agenda into this piece of research. Either that, or you're scientifically illiterate.

  • IF you have a penis your a Male no matter what. If you have fake breast and a penis your still a male. Unless your a Hermaphrodite. They can be both. Same with a woman. As long as she has a vagina she's a female. This whole I choose my gender thing is retarded. there's 2. 3 if your a hermaphrodite like i said. But there's only 2 sexes..

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    • It's not you who's retarded... oh, sorry, yet it is. My bad.

  • This is just SJW culture trying to warp the world we know on it's head. They are like the hippies of the 60s, the punks of the 70s and 80s and the thing rappers from the nineties.

    Only if an sjw went up to a punk or thug back then and said the shit they say now, well uh that wouldn't go over so well.

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  • Your examples missing some facts that I think should be taken into consideration, first off it was a botched circumcision that caused this that's how this doctor got his foot in the door.

    Secondly the actual "therapy" that was used was basically child abuse which also included his brother who committed suicide before him.

    Lets be honest if gender was just a social construct trans people wouldn't be a thing.

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  • Except no, that's just a case where the boy was a male and was forced into a female body. And was experiencing Gender Dysphoria. The exact same thing Trans people face on a daily basis unless they get surgery. The idea of being Trans isn't from this at all, stop making up shit to push your agenda.

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  • I can agree with sentiment I was born male but even as youngster pre school I always never fitted in to the male norm I still to this day feel I should have been born female. All my ways of looking at life are towards that gender. I describe myself as transgender but really are non binary , hate being male but cannot be female. At times life is tough tried suicide a few times couple of times but someone stopped me from dieing...

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    • So the part " I always never fitted in to the male norm" seems ok. A lot of people don't fit in with a lot of norms, at first glance of course. But the part "I feel I should have been born female" seems to be where you went wrong. Adding the part "hate being male but cannot be female", sort of implies you have a problem with societies' nosey disapprovals (who doesn't? ) and hate to face it so bad, that instead of getting around it, you are trying to change yourself or more accurately, your gender, in order to fit in. And naturally, you can't force yourself into that, so you are getting yourself confused. This kind of confusion usually leads to depression. I think maybe a traumatic social incident lead you to hate being a male. It's just a theory of course. I feel sad that you should have to go through probably unnecessary pain.
      So, could you please explain more about how you did not fit into the male norm?

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    • @BeautifulMind59 It's a little complicated what you may find easy to sort looking on but I get physically upset at not being female it's like not being whole. Majority of my friends are female I enjoy the company I find it relaxing and enjoyable to be considered as a equal maybe because I don't hit on them. Even down to my second wife came out with a remark being married to you makes me feel like a lesbian she thought she was being funny I thought it was great made me feel happy. I know you probably think what a weirdo but that's me!!!

    • Ok, just don't judge yourself. What's happening isn't your fault.

  • This is spot on. And why John Money was never taken out and shot is beyond me.

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  • Even at the time people questioned it, but he used the patient confidentiality laws to prevent others from doing any research themselves. It was a horrific thing to do, shows that this idea is more religious fervor then scientific fact. We have plenty of other studies showing that gender is not a choice (hell transgenderism itself proves this point), that gendered behavior exists pre socialization in infants, brain structural differences etc. I have no idea why this notion is pushed when its clearly wrong (even the people who push it contradict it all the time (again, transgenderism)).

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  • If that makes some people happier, I see no problem.

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    • by the way , the boy lost his penis by a medical error of another doctor: www.BBC.co.uk/.../dr_money_prog_summary.shtml

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    • @hellionthesagereborn many intersex babies were mutilated in the US and UK

    • completely unrelated to anything that was stated by me or the original post or even your post so not sure how that pertains to the situation.

  • I see gender and sexuality as a spectrum. There will be people that do not fall into neat boxes and I think they should be able to dress as they like, without getting harassed.

    That said you can't expect everyone to remember all 60 pronouns and the correct way to use them and I can't expect everyone to agree with me. With all those pronouns it just gets too confusing and violently forcing beliefs on people just makes them resist more. There are certainly videos of trans people attacking others who just have different views.

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  • Of course everyone's preferences are genetic-based. Cons/Reggies, deal with it. Libs/Alts deal with it. But who fucking cares? What people want at the time is important. NUFF SAID

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  • I see gender as a spectrum. I choose to be male because I already have a weewee and a beard and it would be time-consuming to shave it off.

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  • Let the fanatics have their many many genders to 'choose' from so they won't feel opressed or discriminated against in some absurd way.

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  • I was aware of the David case. I was not aware that this millennial bullshit of gender being a choice was based solely and exclusively on this Doctors obviously fraudulent bullshit.

    I thought it might have been an over-reaction to the "let's be tolerant of everything" shit that millennials are so fond of. Transgender? Sure, that's a thing, we can prove it with fMRI scans apparently. Bisexual? Sure, that's a thing. Gender as a fluid and choice? Utter shit. And should be called utter shut.

    Be tolerant of anything except intolerance. (And bullshit.)

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  • Only the mentally ill degenerates think it's a 'choice'

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  • Very nice point. Gender IS strictly male or female. And there are no crossing the lines. If you are "unsure who you are" look down when you're in the shower. If you see a penis you ARE a male. If you see a vagina you ARE a female. No matter how hard you try to debate this it is a scientifically and medically proven fact. There is no such thing as a male having a female brain or visa versa. Its it. Done. End of discussion. You were born that way. And the only way to change is with reconstructive surgery. But it WILL NOT change your brain into the brain of your new sex.

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    • "There is no such thing as a male having a female brain or visa versa. " Oh? Please enlighten us with the studies that say so. Aw, Christ, who am I kidding? We all know that you're just another bigot who can't accept reality,

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    • @JenSCDC what bigotry? Its BIOLOGY!!! Are you so crazy to debate a science? Because biology IN FACT is a SCIENCE!!!

    • My point exactly, but because you're a bigot you don't like it because it deals with actual facts.

  • Sexual identity is biological. Gender in the modern SJW sense is made up and yes, its a choice

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  • if there are 50 genders, then I guess there can't be a "pay-gap" for women, huh?

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  • Cool

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