Are men completely oblivious to their own attractiveness?

[Anonymous]

Women seem to know right away where we stand on the attractive scale. We're either hot or not, and that decides what quality of guy we can get. We seem to be pretty rational about this point. Men on the other hand? Seem totally oblivious! There are so many guys on this site alone, asking questions, and in real life, that are wondering why they can't get the girls they want. They set so many standards of attractiveness for women (usually they have to be pretty), and wonder why they're still virgins and never get a date. They for some reason either think they're better looking/more confident than they actually are, or they don't understand why women won't date down for them. It makes no sense to me. Speaking purely in numbers to make my point, although I know it's much more complicated than this, it seems most 5 women would expect a 5 guy or less. She's not confused as to why 7's and 8's aren't asking her out. But most 5 men expect AT LEAST 7's and 8's, harping on about how they're not attracted to girls less than that and it's "not fair," and can't understand why they can only get other 5's. They call these 7's and 8's shallow for not dating them based on looks, meanwhile their entire dating criteria is based on dating girls hotter than themselves! Isn't this 10X more shallow than those 7/8 girls merely wanting to date 7/8 guys? It's so clear to me and other women, and it's very clear to attractive men, but to these men on the lower scale they seem oblivious. Why is this? I thought men were the more rational gender.

[kheserthorpe]

I'm just going to answer your main question:

- are men oblivious to their own attractiveness

yes. Unless they are exceptionally good looking, they don't know it. Someone referred to the study that women rated most men as 'below average'. More accurately, women rated most men as around a 2 out of 5. It seems that only a small number of men are really good looking, and most of the rest are 'okay', and it comes down to personality and game and ambition and other factors. For guys not in that top group, they really have very little idea how they stack up. Only those few guys get hit on much by women, and only those few guys would regularly have women commenting on their looks.

Even then, I've seen other studies suggesting there is more variance in what women find attractive then what men find attractive. The one guy I know who was hit on constantly, probably 1/3 of women I know said they didn't really find him attractive.

But I think the main driver is that guys who are a 10 know it, but between being a 4 and being an 8, most guys would really not be sure where they stood - because women treat 4's to 8's somewhat similarly.

Someone also mentioned 'good looking guys know it because they get checked out'. Some would. However men, in general, are much worse then women at picking up on body language. So some wouldn't even notice that.

[WoIIie]

BA now.

[dubstep]

I agree with some of what you said but the following is horsesh*t But I think the main driver is that guys who are a 10 know it, but between being a 4 and being an 8, most guys would really not be sure where they stood - because women treat 4's to 8's somewhat similarly. A 4 does not equal an 8 a girl will likely ignore a 4 and have a crush or like an 8.

[Alessus]

Well I think that the whole concept of an attractiveness scale is preposterous, since we, as individuals, have individual "chart" of what is beautiful and what isn't, so a girl who might be "4" to one guy might well be a "9" or "10". As for men being oblivious to their own attractiveness, I'd say some men are, some aren't, it's not really about genders. Women can be just as oblivious to that. In either under or overestimating their own value, as I know a woman, who thinks she is a 5-6 on the "average" mans scale, while most of the guys I know would rate her at least 8. As for myself, I'd say I'm pretty oblivious to it as I'd want to know defined traits that make a guy handsome or ugly so that I could rate myself properly. But id I'd have to throw around a number, I'd say I'm a 4, on a scale of 1-10. But as Dionysos pointed out, while outward appearance is a factor in attractiveness, from what I hear personality traits also increase or degrease that as well, if we are talking about a more whole attractiveness and not just physical characteristics. And as far as I know, women seem to think that ambition is a positive, which those "5" guys seem to show when approaching those "7" women.

[Anonymous]

The guys who are complaining about hot bitchy girls rejecting them are totally hypocrite..Okay look.They choose to approach her and then get rejected.Why did they choose her instead of trying to approach average girls? Calling hot girls shallow for not dating them based on their look is just like licking their own saliva.They have options.Its not like average girls aren't available.Yes some of them need a mirror.Deep inside they are the one who are picky choosing her.Hot girls work hard to achieve their looks.They need to sacrifice lots of thing like money,time and energy.The truth is not many girls are born to be naturally beautiful.Still they need to put some efforts.These guys easily come and expect her to fall on their feet without considering does he good enough for her? I speak this based on what I observe in my country so I am not sure if guys over there 'share' the same attitude.

[Southerngal10]

Some guys are just too hot to not be aware lol. I think they may know, but sometimes aren't sure of themselves. Some women (myself included) rely on guys to make the first move. So therefore, its normally the guy being the first ones to make the nice compliment. There often isn't too much room for a compliment unless the woman approaches the man first or until the relationship is already formed. They guys who are aware and make it known that they are aware either has a high self esteem, has been told by others numerous times in his life, or both.

[swiftsaver602]

I don't know if I'd agree with that...I've recently been feeling more confident about myself and my mom said "you probably broke a lot of hearts, you know" because she says I'm "gorgeous and don't even know it and turned down guys without even realizing (even though I don't agree with that).

I have some girl friends, too, that are so pretty but no matter how much I tell them, they genuinely don't believe it. Then you have the ugly, snotty girls that, like anon guy said, who think they're hot sh*t.

[Asker]

so when girls are oblivious it's because they're hotter than they think they are. not really as bad.

[swiftsaver602]

Not necessarily...some girls think they're hot as hell when in reality they're not very attractive. I don't think it can be generalized to one gender...it's natural for men and women to have a skewed view of themselves, especially looks.

[GabeyBaby]

Well, there's a simple answer to this. Our society is heavily homophobic overall - so where a woman would readily admit to some top actress or model being attractive, a guy couldn't say the same thing about, say, Johnny Depp.

That said, I am reasonably attractive, but more importantly, I'm a very confident and friendly person. My job as a firefighter requires me to be competent, self assured, and not an a**hole - those qualities blend in to my social interactions as well. I get hit on quite a bit, which is great validation even when I'm dating someone currently.

Women who go out with "jerks" are generally the most messed up of the lot - they have zero self - esteem and are going out with what they think they deserve. But for a man to rate a woman "top - notch" simply on her looks is idiotic. I have to at least talk to a girl for a while before I decide on a "number" for her (though in truth I hate scales like this and pigeonholing people)

[stubbsy]

Most guys will only go for a girl they are attracted to, and this has nothing to do with rating themselves a 7 or 8s down to the girl to make herself attrative to him, if she fails that we move on,x

[Asker]

I understand this. But it seems pretty shallow of them to demand that out of a girl, but then call her shallow and get pissed for a girl not overlooking that about him, ya know? If he's not even dating on his level, how can he call a girl above him shallow for not dating down? Have standards if you want, but realize it's your own standards and lack of working on your appearance that are keeping you single, not women being shallow.

[stubbsy]

Guys who don't make the effort with their appearance also desrve to be given the "Not tonight" rejection, I am a great believer in making an impression last long enough for a second date at least, and with regards of women being shallow, yes they can be, but so can us men be, but I don't believe its all down to her being an 8 and him being a 7 or vice versa,x

[sexyasianboi26]

I've been around too long to know that not every woman likes the same type of man.

I don't like the rating scale lol, because I get rated harshly and I rate harshly. In the end, deep inside, we want to be 10's.

[Asker]

But we're not all 10's. And while I can accept that I'm about a 7 who wants a 6 or 7. Most guys can't admit their number and always want much higher.

[sexyasianboi26]

I aim for 6 and 7's. Not too high, not too low, just about the right type of wood and land to build a relationship.

[Asker]

Are you a 6 or 7?

[sexyasianboi26]

I consider myself a 9 :p. and Ill boast why, physical traits I proudly say I have: dimples, abs, highcheekbones, defined jawline and a nice butt. Personality traits: well lets just say I was born in the land of romance, so I was brainwashed on how to be a good husband haha. but yah I aim for 6 and 7's

[adamcdavis]

idk for me I don't realize it and probably think I'm uglier than I am because I used to be ugly when I was young and had no female interaction so even though I am less ugly now I can never complete burn those old thoughts out of my mind. The fact is for men it's more about just their success and confidence because there are many guys who are very average/below average in looks but they are very confident and get girls because girls love attention so these guys then think they are hot sh*t. Opposite can apply as well for better looking guys who don't get many girls they start doubting their looks.

[kambo_trick3y]

The mind sees what it wants to see, especially when it comes to personal attractiveness. That's why, in most cases, your physical attractiveness is measured by how attractive other people perceive you, not yourself.

[Asker]

But these guys should realize after getting shut down by every single girl they find "pretty" and getting attention from girls they don't originally find "pretty" where they stand, right? I asked this question in response to a question a guy recently posted. It's not like he's not getting any girls, just not the ones he thinks he deserves. So where women would reevaluate our own attractiveness scale, he's refusing to and just getting pissed. Calling women shallow, when he's clearly shallow.

[kambo_trick3y]

People live life with blindfolds on girlie. Guys call women shallow when they like successful men with money, but they don't realize that deep down they're just as shallow for wanting to get with a girl who is a supermodel. Blindfolds, everyone's got em'.

[dubstep]

Guys call women shallow when they like successful men with money, but they don't realize that deep down they're just as shallow for wanting to get with a girl who is a supermodel. Wrong girls want good looking dude too.

[kambo_trick3y]

Are you the one that downvoted me? I hope not, cause you need to learn how to follow points in a conversation. I'm not attacking genders, I'm attacking hypocrisy. When I said people, I meant just that, PEOPLE. Guys AND girls, live with hypocritical blindfolds. Of COURSE girls want guys who are good looking, I just happened to use an example featuring a guy.

[kambo_trick3y]

Oh, also, don't call something wrong just because you are gender biased. Guys DO call women shallow and don't realize they are being just as superficial cause they want a good looking girl. Just like WOMEN say GUYS are shallow when they don't realize that all guys aren't 6'2 and look like Chris Evans. Stop being gender bias, and expand your mind, learn critical thinking too please. My point wasn't even a difficult one to grasp, you should be smart enough to get it.

[dubstep]

your not even white lol. anyways the point is that women are biologically hardwired to like taller men just like we are wired to like certain women. How is that baised?

[kambo_trick3y]

I don't have to be white. I just used an example of a guy a lot of women find attractive. Agh, you're missing the point. Holy crap. Just, I'll just keep it simple. Guys are hypocrites, they call other people shallow when they don't realize THEY are actually being shallow. Girls are hypocrites, hey call other people shallow when they don't realize THEY are actually being shallow. Is that simple enough for you?

[kambo_trick3y]

I'm practically doing your homework for you, if you still don't understand the point, I can't do much more for you man.

[WoIIie]

Your claims are mostly false.

[Asker]

I could write book full of names of men I've seen do this. Perhaps oblivious isn't really the word. Maybe just hypocritical.

[WoIIie]

I can right a book about the aroma of dog feces but that doesn't make it credible or worthwhile.

[WoIIie]

*write

[Asker]

Maybe not to you because you're selfish and it doesn't affect you.

[WoIIie]

Why don't you share some names of guys on this website who inspired this article? Just this site, otherwise you'd BS it. Since you have such a large sample that shouldn't be too hard.

[DutchAtheist]

Well how are guys supposed to know? Women get hit on and publicly rated/commented on by guys, no girl ever comes up to a guy and clearly states that she likes him and wants to go out.

Guys don't get the feedback like girls do, and all your guy friends will ever tell you is that you are ugly, cause that's what guys do.

Unless you are really disgustingly hideous or dropdead gorgeous as a man, girls won't tell you in your face. So you just have to figure it out on your own.

[Nseal302]

Like every human being I look in the mirror at least a couple times a week and say "damn he's good lookin." I think it's somewhat necessary to have some sense of self esteem, but how I look to different girls? Oblivious. I have absolutely no idea what girls think of me (especially since I got a serious haircut). I don't really see a good way of finding out either without being an attention bitch or asking a close friend. Neither of which seem like an actually good way of finding out.

[Dionysos]

We can be completely oblivious to our looks. Fortunately, so can a number of women out there, and that's a really good thing because otherwise a lot of us would die virgins. :-)

One quick point though. Being attracted to someone a lot better looking than you isn't unfair at all. It's only natural to be attracted to attractive people. If you set your sights lower than what you want just because you think you're ugly, you're setting yourself up to be disappointed that you weren't good enough for what you really wanted. I don't know about you, but I would hate to be someone that my partner settled for because she didn't think she was hot enough to attract someone better. Talk about an ego kill if you ever found out.

[Asker]

I agree with you, but I think it's wrong for these men to get mad and start yelling at these hot girls for being shallow. When they are very clearly being the more shallow ones. Sure, everyone is attracted to the best, but it says something about you when you want a woman to date you for your personality, meanwhile your main criteria is looks.

[Dionysos]

No argument. If I'm lucky enough to attract a pretty woman that's great. If I'm not up to her standards, I can deal with that too. Griping about it is for losers.

[temptationfalls]

I have no idea what makes a male attractive. So I'm going to join the oblivious group.

[Cowboy5]

I am there with you. One woman may be attracted to bank account, another the car, another the biceps, another the brains, and another the lack of brains.

[dubstep]

lol @ you don't know what makes a male attractive.

[evenlift]

You have to bear in mind men don't wear make-up. Some 'beautiful' women look terrible without make-up.

[nate18]

most women juts think they are hot. when they really arent. or are good looking but take that make up off and they go from an 8 to a 5 or 6.

[Asker]

Yes, but there girls still manage to find guys to date them. And usually those guys are less physically attractive or at least on the same level to them. Guys will just say no to every girl who isn't more attractive than they are (if they're an unattractive/average guy) and then complain about how they can't get girls.

[nate18]

your right, guys will take what they can get sometimes. and other times guys have higher expectations but the same thing goes with women. and after asking around, I've been rated by women and men that I'm around a 6 or 7, but I dated a 4 or 5 for a year. I never complained how I can't get women. although I have my difficulties.

[Tarvold]

Sigh...

Whilst I don't doubt your experiences, I have to say that your observations are a bit off the mark in several areas.

Firstly, this kind of reaching-beyond-your-league happens to girls too.Those virgins that only go for the super hot people? yep, they come in female forms as well. Just because they don't call You constantly and follow you around at parties like a shadow, only ever getting within arms distance after you're a bit drunk, doesn't mean that they don't exist out there.

As for guys who only rate on looks... yeah, unfortunately that happens, and it happens for two main reasons:

1.) the guy is a twisted obnoxious f*** who needs a hot girl to validate his insecure ego.

2.) the guy isn't getting enough sex, so his motivations are driven by his primal desires and does not have the clarity of thought to consider beyond the physical attraction.

That's why I always recommend dating people who've had a lot of partners - if they've been around the block and they still come back and pick you, then you know that you've got something special in their eyes.

[Asker]

Your second point is very interesting and something I hadn't thought of before. Because you're right, it tends to be either the very insecure, or the virgin "nice guys" who are obsessed with looks. I can understand the first one, but for the life of me couldn't figure out why the guys who got few women were doing it. That makes sense. Thanks for the post.

[Heretic]

"It seems most 5 women would expect a 5 guy or less." - Completely untrue from what I've seen. The opposite is in fact true. Plenty of less attractive girls going for the top guys, 8s, 9s and 10s. Those top guys get the majority of the girls.

We're descended from twice as many women as we are men.

Girlwriteswhat on the whole girls not liking "nice guys" thing -

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

Brilliant vid.

[Asker]

The top girls would have the majority of guys to balance that out as well if guys would lose the slut standard. But since you can't, that's why half of you are left with no girls. We have to save the few we're "allowed" on the best

[Heretic]

"The top girls would have the majority of guys to balance that out" False, women are hypergamous - link so they don't go for guys who are lower on the attractiveness scale than them. They, like the vast majority of girls, only want the 8, 9 and 10 guys.

[Heretic]

"they don't understand why women won't date down for them" "We have to save the few we're allowed on the best" You admit it yourself.

[Lj236]

Im probably in the group oblivious to their own attractiveness lol. I do agree with some of your points though. Also It seems like a decent amount of guys in their late 30s and early 40's expect to date a girl in their 20's lol

[Anonymous]

"We're either hot or not, and that decides what quality of guy we can get."

It doesn't stop the ugly/unattractive girls from trying to climb up out of their league and into the next one in the guy department (meaning, the only girls that have had the balls to approach me out of the blue and try chatting me up were girls that were unattractive.

[Anonymous]

Good looking guys are not oblivious because girls check them out.

[Asker]

True

[Anonymous]

I don't know about that. There's quite a few girls that think they're hot as sh*t and they really aren't. Most people think of themselves as more attractive than they actually are.

Though I guess if you are a guy and have money, it really doesn't matter. That's who the 8s, 9s, and 10s flock to

[dubstep]

. That's who the 8s, 9s, and 10s flock to NOPE maybe the shallow 8s 9s and 10s.

[Opinion Owner]

Which is most of them, so YEP

[dubstep]

not really.

[dubstep]

sounds to me like you got low confidence so you're making excuses as in all good looking girls are shallow.

[Opinion Owner]

Or maybe you're slow to realize the world in which you live. Money is a pretty big factor that women look at. It makes a guy more attractive when he has a prestigious job and has a lot of money.

[dubstep]

No its not so as long as guy has college degree and has a decent job he can get a girl if he is good looking. Money isn't everything and have fun being cheated on if all you got is money and the girl is with you for that reason alone.

[Asker]

Dubstep is right. While I do care that a guy is educated and has at least a decent job, my boyfriend right now makes less money than I do. But I find him very physically attractive and has a personality that meshes well with mine. I care more about looks than the money factor.

[Opinion Owner]

Dubstep must be a chick with a guy's account. That's their M.O. to say that. I'm just telling you that it does play a big role in attraction. Sorry, but it's true. I never said that that was the only thing. It's increases a guy's attractiveness to women.

[dubstep]

It only increases attractiveness because they see that the guy is motivated to strive higher goals not because of money.

[Opinion Owner]

No, it's because of money. Women are hypergamous. How in the world can you possibly say that's not true?

[Asker]

I will agree with both of you on that. It's partly the motivation and status, and partly the fantasy of living the high-life with lots of money. But it's still not high up on my list to get that from a man. If he has it, yes it's a bonus, but I'm more driven to make that money myself.

[dubstep]

Maybe in the United States it is because brainwashed but in Germany where I'm from the girls aren't shallow and don't care about money or status.

[Opinion Owner]

To make yourself not seem shallow, girls say that. I get it.

[Asker]

I don't necessarily think that's shallow though. No more shallow than expecting good looks anyway.

[Opinion Owner]

I highly doubt they are much less materialistic there either.

[Asker]

Wow...serves me right for trying to agree with you on something. You don't have to believe me. But my degrees, job, and boyfriend who makes less than me should prove what I say is true. At least for myself.

[Opinion Owner]

@QA- That's true. Girls say guys are shallow for expecting good looks, yes? Girls are more shallow when it comes to money.

[Asker]

Guys always say that because they want to feel better about being shallow. Wanting good looks = wanting money. Neither are more shallow than the other. If you think that your'e kidding yourself, and doing exactly what you're trying to accuse me of. Make yourself look less shallow.

[Opinion Owner]

You have degrees, a high paying job, you're about a 7 in looks, and aren't shallow when it comes to the money your boyfriend currently makes. You're a perfect woman, aren't you?

[Opinion Owner]

Oh God! I said they are more shallow when it comes to money. I didn't say that they are more shallow because of them wanting money.

[Asker]

I never said I was perfect.

[Asker]

I apologize I misunderstood then.

[Anonymous]

Yep. My boyfriend is a three. Though he was a six. I'm about a 7.5, so he got lucky but they really have no idea. Like I'm talking he was 270 lbs, and didn't see himself as big until I put on one of his shirts.

[Opinion Owner]

*thought

[Asker]

Exactly. I mean it's one thing if those guys are just as open to learning about a girls personality and what else she has to offer. But it's quite another when they're a 3 who thinks they're a 6 that deserves an 8. I mean they make themselves seem so much more shallow than the women they're supposedly calling shallow.

[Opinion Owner]

I agree completely. But I think it's something both genders do. Not just men, but certainly more usually.

[Anonymous]

studies have been done showing women on average rank 80% of men as being below average looking. seems to me women have the warped perception of reality. nice try but still a fail

[Asker]

Studies also show that when ranking men and women's looks on a 1-10 scale, women are more likely to date one or 2 below themselves. Men never do. Women also adapt to our own attractiveness and still find men to date. Guys that are too ugly to get the "hot girls" just stay alone in bitter for years until they admit it to themselves. So who is more shallow and warped when it comes to looks here?

[Opinion Owner]

women also date above their social status in wealth and standing so it evens out. seriously get over yourself and use your little brain to do some actual thinking

[Asker]

Lol guess we know where you stand on that mean, bitter scale.

[Dionysos]

So would you rather be alone or with someone you weren't attracted to? I'd take alone any day.

[dnately]

Studies show that 82% of sentences that begin with the phrase "studies show" contain completely unsubstantiated claims.

[dubstep]

women also date above their social status in wealth and standing so it evens out. NO they don't maybe the shallow ones but I know several guys whos girlfriends come from rich families. Your arguement is poor.

[adamcdavis]

haha dnately.

[Opinion Owner]

no my argument is solid you do not know the difference between a study and empirical evidence, mr it is you whos argument is poort

[Opinion Owner]

also if providing facts is considered bitter the OK but where I come from its called being an adult