Why it's OK to Shame Bad People and Bad Behavior

[Anonymous]

Are you tired of seeing people here, condemning your opinion, because you're 'shaming' others?

How dare you? What gives YOU the right to shame them?

Well, don't back down. It's not always wrong to shame.

When is it not OK to shame?

In my book, shaming a person for something they have no control over is always wrong. If somebody is in a wheelchair, did they ask to be unable to walk? The chances are that no, they didn't.

Likewise, if you shame somebody for the color of their skin, what are they supposed to do about it? And how is it wrong anyway?

When is it OK to shame?

When a person is exhibiting a behavior that is negative, either for themselves, or for society as a whole, then I feel, yes, it's fine to call them out on it.

Why is it OK? Because they are in control of their behavior, and it's down to them to change it. This is within their control.

If somebody spread lies about you, would you challenge them and shame them for it, or would you just leave them to carry on?

If somebody was a rapist or a thief, is it wrong to call them out?

Some people seek to stop you from shaming promiscuous people, people who engage in bestiality, incest or cucking. They tell you to mind your own business, that you should live and let live, and how it's not hurting you etc. But you are the judge of what you find acceptable or not, NOT them.

All these things harm society in a variety of different ways. They spread diseases, they lower the moral tone, they are baby steps towards the ultimate goal, which is empowering the individual over society as a whole.

What are people who are demanding that you don't shame really asking you to do? They're asking for carte blanche for behaviors that you disagree with. They want to normalize it, and they do not accept your right to a different opinion.

Ask yourself if you want to live in a society, where people are allowed to get away with anything. That's where this is heading.

So shame them, by all means.

[SirRexington]

I agree, man. I've said this for quite some time, shame has a purpose. It helps us know when we are doing something bad. It allows us to call out bad behavior.

But like you said, shaming people for things beyond their control is not cool. And shaming someone for making an honest mistake isn't warranted either, it's when that mistake is done regularly and without worry that it should be shamed.

[SirRexington]

Thanks man!

[Logorithim]

Good Job of differentiating between Things People should be shamed for and Things they shouldn't be.

[Logorithim]

Thanks for the MHO

[Schrodingerscat]

We all have our biases and judge others who don't fit in our thinking.

I sometimes shame obsessive dog lovers who think that their dog is somehow above other humans and worse, compare parenting with having pet.

At same time I know that what they do, doesn't affect me directly. Doesn't stop me from having opinion about their behaviour

[Lurazua]

We should constantly be calling each other out for things we don't believe in. Confrontation is how we progress as a society.

[Anon-ymous1]

To a point.

[skytatoe]

I agree in a certain context and I also strongly agree in another context.

See I believe that everyone should have their rights completely protected in the private sphere. What they do in the comfort of their own homes, as long as its legal should be no one else's business. And shaming them for what they do in the private sphere to me is tantamount to harassment.
Lets take the logic in your question and push it as far as it goes. Now maybe your views are quite mild, and your view of a perfect society is quite reasonable. But I wouldn't encourage people to shame others because they disagree with their views.

So if someone's view of a perfect society is a society ruled by the harshest of sharia laws? Would you accept them shaming you because they disagree with every single aspect of your lifestyle? I think not. And yet they'd be doing exactly as you advocate, to them they'd be shaming you for your disgraceful behaviours to promote a better (or what they think is) a better society. I don't think that should be tolerated or widely accepted at all. I find that kind of thinking to be extremely detrimental to society.

That being said. I do believe this hardcore individualism is also detrimental to society as a whole. When I go back to my country, I see old people on the bus standing, and having trouble staying up with nobody offering them a seat.
I find that to be pretty shameful.
I see people acting with these 'me first' attitudes, just completely disrespecting everyone around them because in their mind there is no one else. The only person that matters in society is themselves.

So where I would agree with you in this is here:
In the public sphere there are things that should be socially acceptable, there are things that shouldn't fall in the category of 'not my problem' or 'whatever their life their choice'.
There are things that people should call out, and shame others for.
Stuff like shitting all over police officers, teachers, agents of the state... Stuff like throwing your trash everywhere... Stuff like not letting people who have trouble walking/standing go first... Stuff like not helping someone who had an accident or not helping someone who is in need... Stuff like parents being shitty letting their kids be asshats to everyone in public transport etc... Very simple things but things that eventually snowball and make whole swathes of people into detestable human beings. That's where shaming should come in. In the public sphere

[skytatoe]

I disagree in a certain context* (first sentence haha)

[MikeAndMolly]

We should shame people who hurt others. Not people whose decisions about their own health or body we disagree with.

But I agree that shame isn't always bad. We shame rapists every day and we absolutely should. People who hurt others should be ashamed of themselves.

But we shouldn't use shame to try to control how people decide to treat themselves or behave with others in a consenting and safe way. For example, slut-shaming or fat-shaming or addict-shaming is all wrong and even if it wasn't, it's totally ineffective.

The trick is, what is "socially acceptable" and what is "wrong" aren't always the same thing. Being gay wasn't socially acceptable for the longest time, and honestly it still isn't in many places, but shaming someone for being gay was NEVER okay.

Basically, you shouldn't shame someone unless their behavior is hurting other people in a way they are responsible for.

Keep your different opinion about any issue you want; I respect it. But shaming someone for disagreeing with you or for behaving privately in a way you don't like is still wrong.

Shame people only for things that are truly evil.

[AntisocialLesbian]

This! MHO right here!

[MikeAndMolly]

@AntisocialLesbian Thank you! I've thought a lot about this.

[englisc]

If shame doesn't work, why would we shame rapists? It either works for all things or none.

[MikeAndMolly]

@englisc I mean that shame is a reinforcement mechanism; it works best when the party involved actually believes that what they have done is wrong. That logic totally falls apart under any rational scrutiny when the moral code that's been violated doesn't involve actually hurting anyone or doing anything that the shamed person believes is wrong.

[AntisocialLesbian]

@englisc Nuance, memorize the definition of that word. Every situation is unique and if your going to make the most moral decision you can, you have to view everything in its own light and context.

[elizamichale2]

You are right that wherever people have no control on something they shouldn't be shamed about it but if someone is doing which is endangering their own or others benifits, goods then yes but even then i believe they should go through a gentle and polite way so they can return back to normal life instead of getting more stern with their wrong doings as a reply to being shamed but ofcourse if something serious is tgere like rape, stealing, child abuse then they should be dealt with very very strict laws

[AntisocialLesbian]

I think thats a dangerous attitude. The fact is that its a slippery slope both ways down. Shaming things you disagree with is never preferable to having a well reasoned argument against it.

Free speech is one thing, you're free to call people freaks and whores and abominations all you want, and people are free to shut you out and exclude you if they dont like it. When i read this i see a guy who's mad that people haven't reacted the way you want when you shame them, and now you're frustrated that no one wants to talk to you.

All i can say is meh, get over it snowflake. You want to take the stance of perpetual condemnation, dont whine or play the victim card when it blows up in your face.

[Anon-ymous1]

I thought this was going to be about shaming people for things that actually *matter,* like obesity. Yet sadly you didn't mention that. In theory, I'm with you, but there are appropriate ways to shame and inappropriate ways-- "call them out," for example. Uhhh... how? What does that actually mean? And are you going to do it in person? Or online?

The thing is that you can tell someone what you've noticed about them that's negative without being a dick. Seeing a fat girl walking down the street and just randomly saying to her like "' 'Sup fattie," isn't going to help her actually change-- it'll just hurt her and people are more likely to stay in a cycle of negativity when that happens, rather than change. Is that the fault of just humanity in general? Yes, but it's something we ALL deal with: Knowing HOW we can better ourselves and not actually doing it because we're lazy.

[Anonymous]

You can't make people feel ashamed for things they don't believe to be wrong.

Fat women who honestly don't think there's anything wrong with being fat can't be fat-shamed. Those who accuse others of fat-shaming for calling them "big" or "chubby" or even outright fat? They know they're in the wrong. They just don't want to think about it because it brings their internal shame to the surface.

So shame away. Quit sugar-coating the truth. Call a slut a slut, a queer a queer, and a fat guy fat. Don't like it? Fix it. Can't fix it? Own it.

[Anon-ymous1]

Yeah except there's nothing wrong with being queer, so... other than that, sure.

[Opinion Owner]

So judging by the fact that you only mentioned being queer, I would guess that you see something wrong with being a slut. I'd be interested in hearing why you think one "sexual immorality" is ok, but the other isn't.

[Anon-ymous1]

Because being queer isn't sexual immorality. Why else would I mention it

[Opinion Owner]

@Anon-ymous1 but being a slut is?

[Benedek38]

I feel that shaming is fine until the person showd genuine remorse. The point of shaming (for me) is to eradicate bad behaviour, not to punish it. After you see remorse, there is no point tormenting the person.

Of course some people can feign remorse. But that's another debate.

[ATuairiscean]

The logic of your take is sound but who decides what is shameful - In your take and our comments we use extreme examples but that is where the debate goes - Take 2016 some say Trump voters should feel shame for voting for him while others would say it is Unamerican not to support him - There are many issues where the word "Shame" is bandied about and the accusation is not universally supported - It is an extension of my free speech/offence thoughts.

[CuChullan]

I think you're looking for an excuse to exercise your judgement on people. There are things in society that's not acceptable, or criminal. Then there are behavioural standards that may not be yours. Judging or crying shame is being judgmental by your standards. Who gave you that right?

[Anon-ymous1]

No one gives us that right. We give ourselves that right by being citizens and hopefully not being morons. It's not about the "right" to shame. And 1) judging someone and 2) actually shaming them aren't the same thing. We ALL judge everyone all the time. Actually shaming them is different.

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 To shame someone you must first judge them. Or you are shaming them for no reason.

[Anon-ymous1]

Of course. And we all judge people all the time, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's normal.

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 Personally, i prefer to take people as i find them. I always check background stories when someone or a group are being condemned by the public.

[Anon-ymous1]

I agree with that premise, generally. But there's no "background story" to being a smoker or being 50 pounds overweight-- you just got lazy or you're just dumb enough to smoke.

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 Ok. a couple of things here. Nicotine is harder to get off than heroin. Some people need smoking as a crutch for what's in their life. You don't know why they smoke.
50 lbs over weight? Lazy? It may not be as simple as that. There could be a medical problem. There could be a mental health problem and comfort eating may the the only way a person can deal with it. Other pressures can cause a person to be overweight. Again you don't know.
That's where judgement is wrong and understanding is the better option.

[Anon-ymous1]

That isn't understanding, dude. It's making excuses. Ones that we've all heard many, many times. And each time is just as absurd as the former.

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 Now you're being totally wrong. You don't know what's in a person's life.
Another instance. In Ireland where i'm from, the government tried to bring in direct metered water charges. The underlying intention was to privatise the resource. But there was never a time when water was never paid for, currently since 1997 it is paid by way of indirect taxation and legislated for. 5% on motor tax and 2% of all vat. Both were raised to pay for water.
We also have a very corrupt MSM , national TV broadcaster who are happy to do the government's bidding. Neither the government nor MSM nor RTE, would acknowledge the fact that water was paid for by way of indirect taxation. MSM and RTE slandered all those who protested and refused to allow water meters be installed outside their homes as spongers, freeloaders, pay-for-nothing brigade. This slander was pumped out 27/7.
If 100,000 protesters marched, MSM said it was on;y 30,000.
The government had their supporters among the public

[CuChullan]

who also joined in the slander.
At present there is a huge housing and homeless problem in Ireland. Again the government puts out the spin that the homeless are responsible for being homeless. It's slander. People have died on the streets, again the spin is it's their own fault.
Another example of judgement over facts.

[Anon-ymous1]

What are you talking about? I didn't say there aren't underlying reasons for some negative things in life which people judge too harshly on-- for some things there are, and for some things there aren't. I brought up obesity and smoking, and you started talking about homelessness due to water costs. How are they related?

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 Judgement is related on all the issues i highlighted.
judgmental people tend to follow the herd, they never stop to think for themselves.

[Anon-ymous1]

Uh... okay man.

[CuChullan]

@Anon-ymous1 Think we'll have to agree to differ on this.
Good luck to you!.

[Bruce_VVayne_]

It is easier to shame who is weak mostly. For those who really deserve, they do deserve to be shamed, but I can tell most shames or judges are being wrong.

Sometimes, it is their life and they shouldn't be judged by others for what they've done. I am surely not talking about rapists or other sicks. They should be shamed to death.

[Voyager1]

I think this is an interesting take with several points as food for thought.
That being said, Shaming is kind of a "Grey Area". By this I mean, it is a case by case basis. opinions vary, Or as my late father would say,
"Son, Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one."
That being said, decide for yourself what you feel is acceptable or not.

[kiraith]

if it just a misunderstand or 1 of silly goof you can understand,
if it a constant then should say when do, how else going make world better place if the bad crap is ignored & good stands up to it to make a difference

[bubble_tea]

What if promiscuous people have a sex-addiction?
Do mental illnesses and the ways they manifest exist in your book? They are all not in full control of their behaviours or do people choose to be addicts?

[Wowgirl10q]

No judgements are for God and shaming or insulting someone is weak. what's that helping? Other then hurting someone?
And person who is being cruel needs a life obviously if they are that worried about someone online

[andreasderjuengere]

How do I know if I am right, or just a victim of opinion makers? I shame who ever I please when I feel the need (which is not too often); the remaining details can be settled during a discussion.

[xkildy]

We all just need to act like decent humans and bear our sins <3

[JackJPershing]

It is okay to shame those who are being a danger to others, and if they are loved ones, when they are being a danger to themselves. Otherwise Idc what people do.

[Trollfather]

You're absolutely correct. Shame them, call them out, push them to improve.

I CAN FEEL THE HUMAN SPIRIT RISING.

[Anonymous]

Shall we use your Take as a "license to shame" justification?

[JustCallMeLeon]

I can judge and shame whoever i want. And i should. If noone did them there would be chaos.