Abortion ISN’T murder or bad!

[KatherinexPierce]

Abortion isn’t murder, and there is medical, factual evidence to back this up.

If you are pro life because you think abortion is murder well;

1. Women should have a choice and 2. It’s not.

And if you just think abortion is murder and women who get abortions are evil, stupid, cruel deserved to be hang whatever how harsh your view is.. it’s not murder.

So, why is abortions not murder?

A fetus at 24 weeks cannot feel pain because they do not yet have the brain connections to do so. Everyone knows some fertilized egg is no way the same as a 4 year old, the life worth of them both are very different, it’s not like abortions are muddying a toddler, it’s getting rid of a clump of literal cells that don’t even have a brain or senses. People like to think that abortions cause women to have terrible phycological damage, and after abortions women will drown in regret and guilt and that they will never be the same again, some people seriously think it’s the same as someone murdering a child. A clump of cells isn’t a child, yet senses or a brain or feelings like I said before. Well actually a study was made were actually 95% of women that got abortions thought it was the right decision. If you are not a woman anyways, I don’t really care about your opinions on women being ruined after abortions. Also not to hate towards men at all but you will never have to experience choosing, since it’s ultimately up to the woman, so you wouldn’t know what it’s like, you’ll never be pregnant lmao. People do have right to speak up and have freedom but hell no they don’t have the right to live inside someone else’s body especially when doing so poses a threat to that person’s body.

[NorthwestRider]

I really do not care abortions. It is just a stupid topic to divide people apart and not talk about the actual issues such as healthcare, corruption, climate charge, etc

[KatherinexPierce]

Sure

[888theGreat]

climate charge? I should have one nickel to that hoax

[KatherinexPierce]

@888theGreat climate change is real and it’s serious

[888theGreat]

It is fake and a scam

[wickhamhayls]

who says foetuses aren't alive?

[Waldoe]

Climate change started during the "Ice Age: and continues today, if all animal life died out... Climate change would continue... the earth has been warming for a million years... It's just a political Ploy so Liberals can scare people and grab power... there is No way to stop climate change... in the far future the earth will crash into the Sun... I am not going to worry about something that I cannot change. Phony BS

[Archerer]

@Waldoe "Hey, the boat is sinking, we may as well set it on fire too"

That's what you sound like...

[Waldoe]

@Archerer I have some pirate treasure I can sell you... cheap

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer Climate has changed over the life of the planet Earth. It is supposed to change even more if we have a pole shift as many have talked about.

[Daniela1982]

@wickhamhayls The lame ass women who use abortion as their means of birth control so that they can absolve themselves from guilt.

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 so? that's on your pastor and yourself, not me.

[Daniela1982]

@wickhamhayls Apparently is is your method too as you probably are some dumb ass who won't use a condom.

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 eh? i always use condoms. I just don't rely on what my pastor told me as facts. You know it's the truth.

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 but then you get angry at being "judged", and accuse people of autism who judge you. loool. are you a doctor? i think any actual doctor would laugh at that as a symptom of autism. and i can judge whom i please. unless you can give me a reason why i cannot, and more specifically not judge you, then fine. you seem like spoilt American babe who can't handle people. or was taught by her parents some retarded shit.

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 lol. you're pathetic. i've cornered you, you cannot handle people calling you out. i'm glad i didn't get this "rule" that i cannot treat you the way I wish. since you're special, cos you're some spoilt white bitch from the mid-west USA

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 Daniela seems like the kind of girl who would get an abortion herself but go to an anti abortion protest... there’s plenty of examples of people like that but you seem extra perfect for that role.

www.google.ca/.../story%3fid=50274843

[Daniela1982]

@wickhamhayls I never commented on autism. What are you blabbering about now?

[Daniela1982]

@wickhamhayls Says the guy with 2% MHO. I guess people don't see you worthy of good opinions. *rolls eyes*

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 like a give a shit about random strangers online valuing my points. that proves MY point on YOU! And yes, you're the one using autism to try and win one over on people, but then i doubt you're even a doctor loool. just admit you hate being challenged, especially people who owe you fuck-all.

[wickhamhayls]

@Daniela1982 just people like you make me laugh. i'm right, admit it. you're some mid-western spoilt American bitch "hurt" i'm calling you out. i don't give a fuck about you. that bothers you, admit it.

[nightdrot]

Actually it is murder. If you assume that a being is a human being from the moment of conception, then yes, it logically must be murder. Which indeed is why the courts and the law have tied themselves up in knots since Roe v. Wade trying to avoid defining when life begins.

Hence why, at first, abortion was banned after the third trimester. Then the limit was refined to viability. Then, as viability has regressed to earlier and earlier stages of gestation, the limit has regressed to earlier and earlier in time.

It is also why, now, some states have begun to use the "heartbeat standard" as the point after which abortion is not legal. All human beings have a heart. If the law can be compelled to recognize a heartbeat as definitive of a human being - the point being that most women will not know they are pregnant till after the point in time when a heartbeat is detectable - then abortion will be effectively banned.

What the courts do not want to codify is the idea that the life of a human being can be taken - sanctioned by law - absent cause. A child being guilty of no crime save the fact of its conception, which itself it did not cause.

Suffice to say, embody that idea in law and the consequences would be profound - and very bad. So the courts - as Roe v. Wade effectively took the question out of the hand of legislatures - are turning intellectual handstands to set a standard while avoiding the central question of when a fetus is a person.

Indeed, the pro-choice argument is rooted in an intellectual conundrum. If the fetus is not a human person from the moment of conception, at what point - EXACTLY - does it become human? What, scientifically, legally, and morally, is the difference between the child one second before that EXACT moment, and one second after it? What are the implications if the law defines a date and then it turns out - after further scientific analysis - that it got it wrong?

The courts are using an evasion. The fetus - from the moment of conception - cannot be anything other than a human person. It will not be a duck or a horse. Logically, a thing cannot be other than what it is at any stage of its development. Because if it can be, then scientifically the fetus has an equal potential to become an elephant as a baby.

So the courts have fallen back on a semantic difference. We call a fetus a fetus, a baby a baby and a boy a boy and a man a man - even though, at every point in that continuum it is the same thing. An individual human person. The fact that we give different names to the same being at different points in time does not change the essential nature of the being. It is what it is and cannot be anything else at any point in that continuum.

This then being why the point at which abortion is permitted is, slowly but surely, falling back earlier in time. Again, it having started at the first trimester and having since, in law, been refined as "viability," as the courts have periodically rewritten the standard. (Again, also remembering, legislatures - Federal, state or local - since Roe v. Wade, are excluded from drawing the line.)

Long way around, yes, logically and philosophically, abortion is murder by virtue of it being the taking of the life of a human being who is not guilty of any crime at the will of another being. The law has only avoided stating that fact by relying on a semantic fiat - and a shifting point in time - that bears neither scientific, nor logical nor moral scrutiny.

[Archerer]

"If you assume that a being is a human being from the moment of conception"

I don't. Boom. It isn't murder.

[nightdrot]

@Archerer Really, if not human from the moment of conception, then at what point - specifically and precisely - in time does it attain that status? What is the scientific and moral difference one second before that moment in time and one second after?

Be specific and precise. Define the relevant characteristics and at what point they are attained. In that connection, how can it be anything other than human?

[Archerer]

Once it's born

[nightdrot]

@Archerer So, that does not really answer anything.

What are the scientific and philosophical differences between it one second before it leaves the birth canal and one second after? Again, be precise and definitive. Also, in that connection, what are are the scientific and philosophical differences between 8 months and 9 months? When does the attribute of humanity attach or - in your empty slogan - begin to formulate?

Your answer was unserious. You cited a standard, not defend and justify it. Otherwise all you have done is articulated an ethic of convenience and thus of mere power relations. The strong will set the standard for the weak.

[Archerer]

I answered all your questions precisely and concisely.

if not human from the moment of conception, then at what point - specifically and precisely - in time does it attain that status?

Once it's born. Cambridge defines it as "coming out of a mother's body, and start to exist" that is a verb. Meaning an action. To be born.

What is the scientific and moral difference one second before that moment in time and one second after?

Before its born it doesn't have the status you asked me to define previously. After it's born it does. Not born? Not human not morally wrong. After it's born? Human and morally wrong. Scientifically? One is still in the mother, the other isn't...

I know you are smarter than that, I didn't need to spell it all out for you.

[nightdrot]

@Archerer You do understand, of course, that I was asking for the physical, scientific and moral distinctions. You have named a category, you have not defined what justifies it.

Further, you are aware that in law, right now, your standard - if such it can be called - is not accepted. The standard was the after the second trimester, then viability. Such that partial birth abortions are banned as are all abortions in the third trimester.

This distinction has its own problems, which as I wrote is why the law is turning handstands to avoid defining the moment when human life begins. That said, the standard you have set is - in law - called infanticide and is looked down upon.

Stop patting yourself on the back. You cited a date that is not even recognized in law and you have articulated no characteristics that would rationalize and justify that date.

Try again.

[nightdrot]

P. S. Just to add, you do recognize that right now, if a pregnant woman is murdered, her assailant is charged with two counts of murder and not one. As murder only applies to a human being, you have inherently recognized in law the humanity of the unborn child.

[Archerer]

When you say law you mean US law right? You know other countries exist... and you know even still I could disagree with the law too.

[nightdrot]

@Archerer Well, I cited US law, but the same logic applies - and of course US law is actually the most liberal on abortion in the Western world. (China's forced abortions are a whole other story.)

However, we are discussion here a scientific analysis, a legal standard and a moral principle and what defines and justifies them. Apply what law you like, the same empirical analysis is at work.

[Archerer]

I did answer all your questions, I understand you disagree, and that is ok. I am happy abortions are legal, at least where I am from, and you have to live with it.

[nightdrot]

@Archerer No, you did not. You have asserted mere power. You have the authority, therefore you exercise it. You have not justified it on any ground of principle rooted in the actual questions.

The assertion of mere power - as history amply demonstrates - has not had a happy story in human history. The question not being are you happy that abortion is legal. Rather, the question is "ought you to be?"

[Archerer]

What is law if not asserting mere power?

[nightdrot]

@Archerer It is, properly defined, the condification of those moral and ethical principles by which a society wishes to be guided and governed. See also Aristotle and Plato.

To repeat, Aristotle said that the first questions of politics are: "How ought we to live? What kind of a people do we wish to be?" Where law is seen as a mere exertion of power it fails to gain legitimacy and ultimately falls by the wayside or, in extremis, provokes rebellion against it.

[nightdrot]

Just to add, it being well to recall that man shapes the law and then the law shapes him in an ever interactive process. The natives of Canada - to use your native country - were once treated as less than human until standards began to change. These changes were codified in law, thereby making them habitual to the point where today they are taken for granted.

Law is, suffice to say, more complicated than you appear to understand.

[Archerer]

You are not understanding what I mean. If you think law is such a great standard, then guess what? Abortion IS legal, so you should give some credit to the law for making it legal. Why do all the best countries in the world make it legal? And why do some of the worst countries in the world ban it? Doesn't that show you something?

[nightdrot]

@Archerer The question is does the law conform to right principles. The law, as a creation of imperfect being is apt to be imperfect. The point is that law should not be based on mere convenience and power, but rooted in a recurrence to principles that have been tested over time.

As far as you latter point, it is irrelevant. All the best countries have some form of legalized abortion - though in Germany post-Naziism it is heavily restricted - but so too the worst countries. So what does that tell us?

Again, you assert mere power and convenience and neglect the finer ethical and moral principles that ought to apply to make law into good law. There is a huge hole in that doughnut, so to speak.

[888theGreat]

@Archerer Boom your wrong like everything else and it doesn't matter what you think , it is God's call.

[Twinrova]

@KatherinexPierce "What is the scientific and moral difference one second before that moment in time and one second after?

Before its born it doesn't have the status you asked me to define previously. After it's born it does. Not born? Not human not morally wrong. After it's born? Human and morally wrong. Scientifically? One is still in the mother, the other isn't.."

This is literally you just saying that it isn't a life before it is born because you said so arbitrarily. You made no attempt to justify this standard you have set. Why can't you just admit that you haven't thought this through? I would have a great deal of respect for you, but as far as I'm concerned, all you've done is humiliated and exposed yourself as a partisan hack.

[Twinrova]

I meant to @archerer

[Archerer]

@Twinrova I have a question for you, is murder always wrong?

[Twinrova]

@Archerer I am sensing a #pivot

[Archerer]

@Twinrova I am sensing a #Greatdealofrespect coming my way

[888theGreat]

@Archerer As the Rock says " It doesn't matter what you think"

[Archerer]

@888theGreat Well it’s legal in the US and in Canada so actually it doesn’t matter what you think lmao 😂

[Derekk]

Abortion should be legal no matter what the definition of life is. Right up until the very second of self-sufficiency. The semantic argument is completely irrelevant when you shift the issue to one of bodily autonomy.

[888theGreat]

@Archerer So how are people charged with two murders when they shoot a pregnant woman?

[Archerer]

@888theGreat Abortions are the mothers choice and mothers choice alone, that’s why.

[Daniela1982]

@archerer Does it really matter what men and women say? What matters is how God looks at it. Also remember one of the 10 commandments - Thou shalt not kill.
God views human life as beginning at conception. In his Word, the Bible, God consistently portrays an unborn child as a distinct person. Consider some examples indicating that God does not draw a distinction between the life of a baby in the womb and one that has been born.

Under divine inspiration, King David said to God: “Your eyes even saw me as an embryo.” (Psalm 139:16) God considered David to be a person even before he was born.

Additionally, God knew that he would have a special purpose for the prophet Jeremiah before Jeremiah’s birth. God said to him: “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I sanctified you. I made you a prophet to the nations.”—Jeremiah 1:5.

The Bible writer Luke, a physician, used the same Greek word to describe an unborn baby as he did to describe a newborn baby.—Luke 1:41; 2:12, 16.

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 God is a made up character in a children's book. But I am glad you brought that up. The bible doesn't actually mention abortion once... Even your quote “Your eyes even saw me as an embryo.” (Psalm 139:16) Is a lie. The word embryo wasn't used at all in the bible. But even if it was, seeing one doesn't mean anything other than it's there. I see rocks, soil, and garbage all the time. Your second quote CLEARLY states “Before I formed you in the womb" so God is talking about the blueprint of a prophet before he was even conceived, probably before any human existed, not anything related to a fetus or abortions.. But what the Bible DOES say, is that if a pregnant woman is struck during a fight, and the unborn baby dies, then you charge the assailant with whatever the court and husband determines appropriate, but if the woman dies, the assailant be put to death. (Exodus 21:22), so it is clear that the bible values life AFTER IT IS BORN more than in the womb. Ironic since that is actually what I say as well, though I am not religious. But the fun doesn't stop there. God also says "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature." So breathing is life, fetuses don't breathe through their nostrils.

[Archerer]

God also has a grand plan right? Maybe abortions are part of his plan... His plan kills many babies to begin with, so why not? He gives babies painful diseases and makes them live in agony until they die horribly, sometimes in the womb, sometimes a few days into life, sometimes God makes the babies live for years in completely agony before he finally decides to kill them. People also tend to believe God sends aborted fetuses to heaven, by that logic an abortion is the most amazing gift you could ever give someone. We should have abortion farms based on that logic. God says all your days are planned, and that everything God plans will happen (Ephesians 1:11) so obviously abortions was part of God's plan, because lets face it, if it wasn't, abortions wouldn't exist

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer Embryo was paraphrased as the term didn't exist at that time. I'm sure you are not too dumb to read between the lines. But I know better than to argue with an atheist as they have no concern for human life, especially a guy who doesn't care if the girl gets pregnant because there is always abortion.

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer That's why they outlawed Partial Birth Abortions, where they deliver all but the head and then sucked the baby's brains out with a suction tube so that it couldn't be murder. Let me also point out again that if someone kills a pregnant woman they are also charged with the murder of her child. “an unborn child in utero at any stage of development, regardless of viability” as a “person” and “human being” for purposes of the state laws dealing with murder, manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide, and assault. If a person commits the offense of feticide if he or she willfully kills an unborn child so far developed as to be ordinarily called "quick" by causing any injury to the mother of such child. The penalty for feticide is imprisonment for life. Ga. Code Ann. § 40 …

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 I do care, about the woman...

[Archerer]

Why keep bringing up the law? First of all it’s only a law in your country... Secondly you understand you understand there’s a different between someone murdering a pregnant woman and a woman choosing to have an abortion right?

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer Sadly, but if a woman throws her newborn in the trash she is guilty of murder. But then some people think it is okay in some countries to kill their wives too so I guess there is no grip on morality. Using abortion as a means of birth control is for douche bags in my opinion, and them just too damn lazy to use birth control. * rolls eyes*

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 Good thing your opinion doesn’t matter. Abortions are legal in most civilized cultures, if you are against them, don’t have one. If you believe in God, then you know it’s not your place to judge anyone. Let God decide...

[888theGreat]

@Archerer God already has... Thou Shalt Not Kill. It has been decided already. No judging about it. It is on your records and a charge is waiting in that big court room in the sky. Hell = Jail

[Archerer]

@888theGreat Yeah so let God deal with it, in the meantime, women should have the choice to abort, it’s their choice and theirs alone.

[Archerer]

Anything up to 7 weeks, when the brain just begins to develop, there is no moral issue at all. After the brain begins to develop you start to make a case, but not a strong one. Not to me at least...

[888theGreat]

@Archerer Even if it gets them a one way ticket to Hell?

[Archerer]

@888theGreat Hell isn’t real

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer What's the matter, you one of those slime balls that likes it raw and won't use a condom? You roll the dice that either she is using protection or if not and she get's pregnant she can just get an abortion. What a dick!

[Daniela1982]

Omg, this clown is engaged? I pity the girl. Hope she doesn't want kids. Someone will insist she get an abortion.

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 We have a child

[Archerer]

And she’s pro choice too

[Daniela1982]

@Archerer And did you try and persuade her to have an abortion? If not I would be surprised, especially if you were not married.

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 It’s funny that you think just because I think abortions need to be legal, and that the only thing that matters in those situations is the mental health of the woman, that I don’t want my own children. Just goes to show how closed minded and ignorant you are. I’m not religious, so children out of wedlock doesn’t matter to me, nor to my family, or anyone that deserves my respect. I’m a proud father of a beautiful girl who is also atheist and also pro choice.

[Daniela1982]

@nightdrot Stop trying to change a troll's mind. It's like talking to an atheist.

[nightdrot]

@Daniela1982 Well, my preferred method is to give each person the benefit of the doubt. If he is, as you say, a "troll," then he wasted as much his own time as anyone else's. Besides, as you will notice from all of the above, he certainly did provoke a discussion.

Indeed, once others became involved, I withdrew as I don't wish to interrupt other's discussions. Still, it certainly did provoke a debate. Can't be all bad.

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 The irony is your behaviour and attitude is complete unchristian. Shame on you.
While I certainly do troll on many questions, usually Trump or conspiracy related, this is not one of them. What I have done here is completely decimated your argument, but you choose to ignore that of course and consider me a troll instead because, well what’s the alternative? Actually admitting I’m right? Your brain won’t allow you to do that. It’s a self preservation technique.

[Archerer]

@Daniela1982 But what is most shocking is how absolutely unchristian your behaviour is.

[Waldoe]

@Archerer when you are elected supreme ruler... you can decide

[Archerer]

@Waldoe it’s already legal and free where I’m from, so I guess we have

[KneeDragger]

@KatherinexPierce – So where is your scientific evidence to support your claim? There was lots of opinion, but nothing to prove your case. From the moment of fertilization, the unborn, myself and you or my three-year-old playing in his room right now, we are the exact same save four traits; we each our Size, Level of awareness, the Environment and the Degree of dependency (use the acronym SLED to help remember the different characteristics). I’ll use myself as an example to prove my position. My Size changed when I take a breath, my chest expanded as I hold my breath. When I go to sleep at night, my Level awareness changes. Right now, I’m sitting on my couch but if I move my head just a few inches to the side, my Environment changes. As a teenager at the age of thirteen my Degree of dependency changed as I have grown to be an adult of forty-two.

During any of the stages of my life did I change, sure but I never lost my humanity, my personal self never changed. Sure, traits that can define characteristics about myself can change, but the traits that make me a person never change.

A woman does have a choice, she has the choice to partake in an activity known to create life. If you want to argue the case for rape; well rape accounts for a quarter of a quarter of a percent of the total number of abortions. I’ll agree with abortion if we can allow for abortion only in the case of rape, then all other cases of abortion are outlawed, but I’ll wager you won’t go there. You would rather have consequence free sex. Women have the choice to the act that creates life.

There are people who cannot feel pain, yet they walk around and live normal lives. Are they not people despite their lack of a nerve pathway or some other malady?

Follow those same women five, ten, twenty or fifty years later in life who are alright right now with their abortion. Do you really think that is an opinion they will hold their entire lives? Also, please notice it’s an opinion. An opinion is like chocolate versus vanilla ice cream and the unborn deserve far more than just an opinion. Also, want to guess who wrote that article about 95% who were glad they had an abortion, that group was of people in a death clinic like Planned Parenthood? That’s like asking kids if they like candy, at a candy store when they are giving candy away for free.

Finally, you talk about how women should be the only ones who are allowed to decide anything about abortion. So, can you create human life all on your own, zero addition from others? Or do you require males to provide half the gametes, yet they aren’t required for anything else? If a woman wants they baby, is the father required to pay child support? If a father wants the child and the mother wants an abortion, should the father have zero option about the life of the child? Just like any other opinion, what happens if the opinion of one parent changes? Abortion is permanent and the opinions of a mother change. Babies did nothing wrong and they shouldn’t die because someone has an opinion against the life of the baby. Please find a healthy person who wishes their parents had chosen to abort them, instead of giving the adult the option of life. In addition, most women recognize the humanity of babies but are pressured to the choice of abortion.

[Daniela1982]

Ronald Reagan once said, "I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." It's so true. You were given a chance to experience life yet you won't allow another to enjoy that same privilege. That sounds so selfish and then these same people complain about genocides and the like.

[888theGreat]

@Daniela1982 Amen Sista ! That is what it comes down to. Selfishness. Me Me Me

[KneeDragger]

@Daniela1982 and @888theGreat - One of the saddest portions; men support abortion for the most part because they want consequence-free sex. Nothing in life is consequence-free but people like sex and they want it to be without any natural consequences.

The actual funny part, my wife and I can determine whether or not we want to have relations at any given period of the month. All that is required is an actual understanding of adult physiology. However, it takes acting like an adult and not following the passions of a young adult. If you support abortion, please try and make the argument you are mature all while supporting the open slaughter of a defenseless child. Please prove me wrong, pretty please.

[hellionthesagereborn]

First and foremost, yes it is. According to scientific data, a fetus can feel pain, to what extent may be up for debate but recent data does show fetus's responding to pain. Second, that is a completely irrelevant argument because by that reasoning as long as some one doesn't feel pain its not murder which no sane person would ever claim. If some one is in a coma and you put a bullet in their head, is it murder? Yes. If you give a person a drug that completely deadens their nerves and then kill them, is it murder? Yes. So this argument is irrelevant.

Second, your saying its not murder but you don't explain why its not murder beyond them not feeling pain. That is a circular argument, its not murder and we know its not murder because you said its not murder. That isn't an argument. Under the law if a person attacks a woman who is pregnant and she loses the baby, the person in question has commited murder. So legally it is murder and scientifically the fetus, which is human by scientific definition, is a human being and thus intentionally ending its life is murder.

Third, why should a woman have a say in the whether or not some one who is not them lives or dies? That is irrational and again, is circular logic as your not coming up with an argument to explain why she should have this choice. Further more if you are pro choice, why then are you not pro responsibility? That is a woman can choose whether or not she gets pregnant, so why is it that your pro choice when it comes to abortion but not pro choice when it comes to avoiding pregnancy and thus the need for abortion to begin with? Again, this is irrational.

So abortion is by definition murder and murder is by definition bad (and this isn't even taking into account the extreme damage it does to the woman from the extreme depression to the increased rates of miscarriage (due to the unnatural stretching of the cervix).

No one who supports abortion is pro choice, they are anti responsibility.

[fjh80]

Okay, let's break this down.
"1. Women should have a choice..." That's not an argument that disqualifies abortion as murder. You're probably thinking that because I wrote that, that it somehow means that I think women shouldn't have a choice.
That argument is always USED to villianize someone who's standing up for a baby's right to live. The truth is, if I could some how make it happen, women would choose to let their own children live.

"A fetus at 24 weeks cannot feel pain because they do not yet have the brain connections to do so."
Here, you're at least making an argument. It's the "they don't have a brain" or "they don't have a heart beat" argument. This is the argument that has potential to change my mind, but just because someone, even a doctor says it's not alive doesn't mean it's not alive. I'd have to know 100 % beyond any doubt before I could condone ending a life.

"Everyone knows some fertilized egg is no way the same as a 4 year old"
A 4 year old is not the same as a 20 year old or a 40 year old. From an unfeeling perspective, like a clump of cells, a 4 year old is only potential. It doesn't serve a purpose or contribute to our society.
You can say that it WILL have a purpose or contribute, and you'd be absolutely correct. The same is true for the clump of cells.

Psychological damage to women... Again, this doesn't have bearing on weather or not it's murder. I can't comment on this point beyond what I've already said.

"Also not to hate towards men at all but you will never have to experience choosing, since it’s ultimately up to the woman..." Again, this statement is true. Again, it's doesn't have anything to do with weather it's murder or not.

"hell no they don’t have the right to live inside someone else’s body especially when doing so poses a threat to that person’s body..." Again, I agree. Again, this doesn't speak to abortion being murder or not.
Also, I'm not even sure what to say to this. Now you're adding "Poses a threat to that persons body". This little aspect changes the conversation entirely.

A fetus is alive. It's growing. Sentient or not, I don't know. Because I don't know, I can't take a position that would kill something I don't understand.
Because it's alive, and you're intentionally killing it, and you can even say it's premeditated, it kinda meets the definition of murder. That said, we DO know that it's a little more nuanced than that.

[Twinrova]

Ignorant post.

1. You haven't explained why the most incipient stages of life are not valuable, you just simply stated that they were...

2. You say that a man's opinion doesn't matter because he will never have to choose whether to keep or abort the baby, which is: 1) not always true, and; 2) even if it were, the father is still affected by the decision, so his opinion should matter anyways.

3. You claim that abortion doesn't cause women to feel guilt, but then the evidence you adduce in support of this notion doesn't actually evince its veracity. You bring up an unamed study that found 95% of women who undergo abortion procedures think they made the right call post-abortion, but this doesn't mean they don't feel guilt. Often times, making the right choice is hard and emotional; I would imagine, and have heard, that killing one's own child can evoke a great deal of guilt and shame.

Overall, you strike me as one of those self-righteous, kool-aid drinking, liberals that are disconnected from reality, and whose fragile mind is controlled at the behest of Don Lemon and company at fake news CNN.

[ohshee]

Thank you for your input I really needed to hear something I new ,, I am pro life but at the same time I will be back any woman to do anything that she wants to do because it is her body it is her choice nobody else's I just got done helping somebody in the Philippines she has no family she coming for your own food it totally disgust me but she needed help I sent her money for the bills diabetic pills didn't work so if you needed to do it again I sent her more money she took those and then your body rejected the fetus and prove it to me she had to send a picture which just did not need to happen that is most disgusting part of the whole thing I'm getting sick right now just talking about it a woman has a choice to do whatever she wants to that is her choice God give us all choices for all matters I will back any play of any woman he wants to do whatever she wants to do no matter which way it goes I would do it again in a heartbeat but thank you I needed to hear that I needed almost feel this again but I'm sicker than a dog. About 2 seconds anyway thank you for your input. I really like this question

[roxbby]

Could you consider yourself as pro-choice because pro-choice means you allow for the choice of whether you abort or not, and that includes your choice to be personally pro-life.

[ohshee]

I am pro choice for others I am pro life for me

[roxbby]

Thank you. It so so nice when people decide to not control other people’s choices, and a number of pro-life people want to make decisions for others.

[ohshee]

No I can't control anybody nor do I want to but I also don't like people telling other people what they have to do and why they have to do it just because it's their opinion my opinion is everybody has a choice everybody is free to do what they want and I will stand behind in person or even in front of any person did has a choice did there are other people bullying them and telling them what they have to do because of whatever their belief is it's wrong

[Anonymous]

I should reface my comments by saying I'm an atheist, not a religious person. Let's look at the facts.

There is no avoiding the fact that abortion is the intentional, premeditated violent ending of a human life. People who deny that must use rationalization, deflection and denial to support their view. Any claim about when life begins, if not at conception, is nothing more than arbitrary opinion to support one's views.

The law considers the violent termination of an unborn child's life to be murder, per the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, and the only time it is legally permitted is when the mother herself does it. In other words, abortion is legal "murder" by another name.

That said, I do support, in principle, a mother's right to choose abortion. I also support a father's right to legally choose to not be a parent. After all, it's a fact that the vast majority of abortions are done simply because the mother was not ready or willing to be a parent. Abortion is a mother's way of walking away from the responsibilities of motherhood, and a father should have the right to do the same. Until that happens, I will not fully support abortion rights in the US.

[Opinion Owner]

*preface

[Leavesbound]

Babies think, feel and are self aware in the third trimester. They are human beings. Therefore killing one is murder period. If you didn't want to have a baby then you should have taken precautions. In the first trimester fine, they have not developed to the point where they can feel pain or fear. In the second trimester there is some debate on this topic. Until we have more information about fetal development in the 2nd trimester, all 2nd and third trimester abortions should be prosecuted as first degree murder and both the doctor and the mother who consent to this should be so prosecuted. Just because you think murder is ok does not make it so.

[acooke-13]

Can you remember what you thought, felt etc in the womb? I doubt it.

[Leavesbound]

@acooke-13 Can you remember sucking your mother's breast? Remembering the experience in the womb is not a valid test for being a human being. If such a memory is mandatory to have a right to live then you could murder your baby on their 2nd birthday.

[acooke-13]

@Leavesbound no because I wasn’t breast fed. Well no that defeats the object of an abortion but hey ho.

[Daniela1982]

Come on! If you believe abortion - within a certain time period or if the mother's life is in danger is not murder you are just about to start another life or death war on GaG. By the way, some lady in Morocco just gave birth to 9 kids. Had she gotten an abortion she could have been a serial killer.

[EmoKate97]

Should abortions be illegal? No.

It is murder? No its not. Nor is accidently hitting someone with your car, or having to kill someone threatening your life. You have to but don't necessarily want to.

Are you killing a human being? Yes. That's the bases of what you're doing, it annoys me a little when women try to thought double think this subject. You are killing a human being by having an abortion, its fucked up but its also not exactly fair to get raped and being forced to forfeit your life because of it and its not exactly beneficial to society to raise a child that isn't wanted or able to be supported.

Overall there's no pretty way to paint it, but trying to change the definition of things (which pro life and pro choice both do) doesn't help us overcome.

[ConstantPain]

99% of abortions are not conducted due to rape but to poor timing mostly or other reasons.

[friendlypelican]

@ConstantPain it still happens tho. what was that saying? "we live for the minority"? either way, I've seen many young children die in countries where abortion is illegal due to rape... its still a valid reason you can't just go "oh but not EVERYONE is raped". if you feel those who were raped may access abortion then your'e pro regulated abortion but i hope to god you're not just saying rape doesn't count in any of this

[ConstantPain]

Was it child's fault women got raped or man's fault. Why should child have to die because women isn't ready to adopt or be parents. But if man walks away from being father before child is born he's a awful man and should pay child support. You can't eat your cake and give it away too

[friendlypelican]

did you just blame rape on the victim? this conversation is over. i can see you're too far gone.

[friendlypelican]

okay no i think i misunderstood PHEW so i- it still makes no sense tho... if a man walks away he has to at least help because usually its HIS fault... and consent WAS given so the matter of birth control is on the woman AND man..

[ConstantPain]

Yeah and you can't read I blamed the rapist the man lol I'm tired of hypocrites like yourself

[friendlypelican]

i already apologized for misunderstanding^^ mb anyone can misunderstand u act like uve never done it

[friendlypelican]

the thing is with blame it depends on the context. sometimes its really not the mans fault- but its situational. it still doesn't mean a woman should have to be forced to go through something as horrible as child birth because some asshole slipped it back in no? you're not the one giving birth it literally kills people its not a cute or fun thing and its not something light hearted. the adoption and rehoming system is too full of children no one will adopt and the foster system is broken and routinely lets children end up with abusive fosters which if you search up im sure ull find a lot on it. u can't just have a kid then throw it away and think “yeah I've done justice.” that just shows once the baby is out you never really cared about the baby themselves just pushing your own selfish morals onto people who really didn't need you to

[ConstantPain]

But here's thing if man is happy and excited to be father but women isn't ready or happy to be mother she can kill his baby and walk away from it so no its not FAIR. Also men don't really have anywhere near birthcontrol options women have. Vasectomies and condoms are just not comparable

[ConstantPain]

Once again fast majority of abortions are not due to rape less then 2 percent so your arguments are not relevant as I'm not talking about rare exceptions but the norm. But your abusing a extreme exception to change rules for everyone else imagine if I said because some people miss you masking so bad that it's actually counter productive let's just make it into law no masking then because of the few case's

[friendlypelican]

okay see there it is... so you're crying about how its not fair i really thought we left that kind of “but i want it” mentality in grade school but apparently not... a man wanting a baby is fine. if a woman doesn't want one and he needs one THAT bad he can LITERALLY just FIND SOMEONE MORE COMPATIBLE. this is why people date. you can't just force a lifetime and sometimes lethal commitment onto a woman because “oh but i want it”.

[ConstantPain]

*Miss use*

[friendlypelican]

also i wasn't talking about rape lol many men just put it back in its just something that jackasses do ofc u wouldn’t know since its not happening to u

[ConstantPain]

But you can on a man via child support or alimony in divorce. Man it sucks to be man I say

[friendlypelican]

wait what? i can what on a man via child support sorry the comments are all messed up 😭😭

[friendlypelican]

lol did u really stop commenting because i couldnt tell wtf u were going on about.. well obviously you have no concept of actually sticking it so why bother on a controversial topic 😭😭 either way ill take this moment to say: even if you ban abortions it will still occur at the same level. research it. the statistics for abortions in places where abortion is legal VS places where abortion is banned (for quite a while now so its the norm) have almost the exact same abortion rate just that grown women are dying with their babies because theyre aborting unsafely. this is why weed was legalized. ban something? it becomes dangerous. people laced weed regularly. keep it legal? you can keep track of it and add restrictions that only work if it hasn't gone underground (which is what happens if they ban it outright.). no matter what side you are on those are just the stats and you can't change it so go ahead and ban it and watch the woman you were so happy to have a child with fall down the stairs on purpose because itll become a common occurrence... why do you think women fought to legalize it in the first place? lol.

[BCA6010]

Religion says life begins at conception.
Science says life begins at inception.

In either case, it's well before anyone knows they're pregnant, and the decision to have an abortion is entirely for personal, selfish reasons outside of the extreme minority (far less than 1%) that are due to legitimate medical concerns for the mother.

So unless the definitions of life and/or murder are changed, then an abortion should be acknowledged as murder.

Under any circumstances, why anyone would think it's something to be glorified or encouraged is beyond comprehension, but simply banning abortions isn't going to stop stupid people from doing stupid things, either.

[friendlypelican]

im pro choice but im commenting on your last part- "simply banning abortions isn't going to stop stupid people from doing stupid things,"

this is completely true and, in fact, if you research it countries with banned abortion have almost the exact same rates of abortion just with death included as the women die from unsafe and unsanitary abortion- even if i was pro life i would want it to be legal for the sole reason that banning it LITERALLY has no point anyway and instead will kill desperate adults.

[Eyering]

Your arguments make sense, but I would very much appreciate it if you could provide your sources of information, especially about fetuses 24 weeks old cannot feel pain.

I have not chosen my side for the pro life vs pro choice debate. I am still reading what supporters of each side have to say before I make the decision. Therefore, the following comments are not meant to be attacks, but rather counter-arguments for the sake of logic. I would welcome it if you reply back counter-counter-arguments :)

You said that abortions are justified because fetuses cannot feel pain. I wonder whether that mean we can ethically kill living beings that do not experience sensations? For example, is it okay to kill a person who has analgesia (the inability to feel pain) when that person is asleep (so that he/she doesn't even know that he/she is about to be killed, no fear involved)?

[friendlypelican]

whatever choice you make at least, unlike literally everyone else, look into countries that already have abortion banned. how did it end up for them? have rates gone down?

personally in my findings it seems it not only doesn't stop abortion but actually increases the death rate for maternal women as they use unsafe and unsanitary methods to abort, causing their own, and their babies deaths. people think an outright ban fixes everything... it doesn't... it never does. nothing thats banned just disappears it just gets more dangerous. its the exact reason why weed was legalised.

[Celtero]

Wrong.

There's a reason why it's against the law to smash an endangered bird's or sea turtle's eggs. We've just decided that human life is not all that valuable.

And your argument is very bad. Pain doesn't have to do with anything. If I could kill someone painlessly it'd still be immoral. And "muh clump of cells" isn't an argument either. You're a clump of cells too, just a larger scale one. A fetus is to a baby what a baby is to a toddler. In primitive cultures, it's normal to practice infanticide instead of feticide.

[Elsa143]

Killing someone painlessly is immoral but it's a crime if you force a woman to go through physical and psychological pain of pregnancy and dangerous side effects. Pain and torture does have to do with a woman who is gonna bear and deliver that child. Seriously, it's better to torture a woman than to kill an unwanted thing painlessly?
What about trying to force pain or even encouraging the risk of death on some woman who wasn't ready to bear something inside her? What if she was raped at teenage? Do you even know how terrible it to keep something inside your body while experiencing depression, PAIN, nausea, cramps, vomiting and even fainting? She can even get diabetes or high blood pressure post delivery.

[Celtero]

@Elsa143 Almost all abortion is used as plan C birth control so don't even mention rape to me.

A baby doesn't start growing spontaneously, people are too damn stupid to use contraceptives properly. Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything to women. Aborters are the ones too stupid to use a condom or the pill the right way so they have to force death upon their unborn child.

[Grape-Soda]

Thanks for helping to further degenerate society, lessen the value of life, make consequences and accountability "uncool" and destroy the family. I can't tell you how many women I know who have hit the wall after sleeping with a large number of men, they have no husband, kids and live a sad depressed live with no meaning or purpose Most are in poor health and drink a lot. Feminism has sold a lie to Western women, they have been told that they should fight against their biological imperative and be "strong and independent women" but they end up being neither. Modern Western women have never been less happy and healthy. Enjoy the bed you made.

[andreasderjuengere]

I think that to MURDER - the 'victim' must be a conscious individual.
To kill a fish isn't murder. To kill an embryo isn't murder either.
I'd prefer to see a situation that's not even make an abortion a thing to consider.
But there are scenarios that are beyond our own control.
When I saw my own daughter on an ultra-sound for the first time, I did not 'see' a human. Our decision to have her completed was rather the decision to give it/her a chance... because we could handle it.
Other people may NOT be able to handle it; I have no reason to condemn them.

[Anonymous]

isn't IT FUNNY
how everyone who calls pro choice people murders, is a spoiled priveledged little snot?

i wish someone had preformed an abortion on my mother maybe then i wouldn't have grown up being bitten by fleas in an alcoholic household lool

its not murder at all actually, its actually an easy ticket out of this SHIT hole before you get attached.

i find it poignant that loads of people are using a "bullet out of a gun analogy" here, when for so many abortion has been
'Dodging a bullet'
(that is to say, never having to grow up in a neglectful home enviroment and probably end up addicted to drugs or on prison)

also.. you old guys are being super Blunt and rude to this girl who made this post and i think you all need to consider wisdom comes with age, right or wrong agree or disagree so be nice.

[Massageman]

"medical, factual evidence"?
Too bad you haven't found it yet. I'll help you out a bit.

5 weeks - heartbeat
6 weeks- brain activity
15 weeks- perceives bright light through mother's womb
19 weeks - responds to your voice
21 weeks - swallows, tastes
23 weeks - senses mother's motion
27 weeks - develops sleep/wake cycle
Medically reviewed by Aaron Deutsch, M. D., maternal-fetal medicine

If a killer murders a pregnant woman, and she and her baby die, he/she is charged with

TWO

murders.
Case closed!

[FakeName123]

"A fetus at 24 weeks cannot feel pain because they do not yet have the brain connections to do so."
So by that logic if the killer anaesthetises the victim, it is not murder, because the victim cannot feel pain anymore?

"some fertilized egg is no way the same as a 4 year old, the life worth of them both are very different"
And a 4 year old isn't the same as a 12 years old. Where do youd raw the lien?

"People like to think that abortions cause women to have terrible phycological damage, and after abortions women will drown in regret and guilt and that they will never be the same again"
There is research actually proving it. Like it or not, it is happening.

"a study was made were actually 95% of women that got abortions thought it was the right decision."
Thinking something was the right decision doesn't mean it causes no psychological damage. Those are two very separate manners.

[FilmGuy93]

So to make sure I'm understanding you; your argument is that the baby cannot feel pain, and is therefore not alive because living organisms are those with enough awareness to know when they are experiencing pain? That's an interesting thought, I haven't heard that before. I once heard a doctor explain that he doesn't consider fetuses to be alive until they are practicing breathing at 32 weeks.

As for your point about women not feeling bad after getting abortions; every single woman I've spoken to who has had an abortion has told me flat out that it fucked them up for a long time. This was 15 or 20 different women of various ethnicities, cultures, income levels etc.. Not a super big sample size, but still interesting.

[ToastyOats]

Like not even a little bit bad though, that's crazy! Look a gallon of milk dosen't have a nervous system at all, but I still feel a little guilty if some goes bad toward the end. Objectively a fetus at least has the value of a jug of milk. Your a perfect example of why we are going to continue to have controversy around this. It really devalues women to say a fetus at any stage dosen't have enough value to feel even the slightest guilt. If a person kills a baby inside a woman against her will, that should be murder. Do you agree with that?

[KatherinexPierce]

Milk? Lol if you step on an ant do you cry about it. Gosh.

[ToastyOats]

I don't feel absolutely nothing like you do. Your just making my point for me. Cold as Ice.