Do you know that both Social Security and Medicare are socialism?
@NorthwestRider Do you know that I oppose both of those programs and want them done away with?
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There is also a difference between Europe and America that many gloss over.Until recently, class in Europe had more to do with your last name than anything else. Ambitious, but lower class or upper class lacking title came to America for the opportunity to live free. Many never did much better, but some did, and their children or grandchildren often did. Even today, the average poor person in the US has more personal living space than a middle class person in Europe. There is class in the US, but membership is not static. People go up and down. I grew up poor (because my mother divorced my father) and became quite rich. The vast majority of millionaires in the US are self-made. That is a great thing.But impose socialism and becoming rich will become nearly impossible that few will try. It was people trying to become rich that started Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, Walmart, Facebook, ebay, NetJets, and every other major and many minor companies. It was rich people who invested their own money in these ideas in hopes of getting richer. That all goes away under socialism.Name one world wide industry or even product developed in the Soviet Union. 75 years of socialism there gave the world nothing. China is no better. The enormous variety of products and companies from China did not come out of Mao's Communism, but from the easing of the laws to allow capitalism to develop.
@WalterRadio In broad terms I agree with you. Class has not generally been a motive force in American politics and culture. At least not in the same sense as in Europe where hereditary titles tended to play a larger role. Suffice to say that the American Constitutions forbids such titles.However, it is not so much that wealth would be harder to come by. Rather that it would accrue less to productive uses than to those who wield power. Looking back at the USSR you cannot say that it had no differentials between wealth. Rather, wealth was allocated politically - which meant to those who wielded political power. Thus the empty store shelves in the Soviet Union - unless you were allowed to go to one of the stores reserved to party apparatchiks.That all said, I do not fundamentally disagree with your point. The paradox being that the argument is more symptom than cause. The economic failings of socialism were rooted in its theoretical premises. The economics of it flowed therefrom and not the other way around.Indeed, to argue the other way around is, effectively, to make a quasi-Socialist argument that the economic comes before, and is father to, the social and cultural.
... to take the orders, awarehouse manager and selectors to pick the orders and route the deliveries, someone in the office to create invoices for the orders, truck drivers to make the deliveries, a Merchandiser to pack out, and a sales manager like myself to oversee the execution.” So I just wonder what we’re going to do, because Amazon will open more warehouses, but not enough to equally replace the eliminated jobs from all the stores that go out of business that can’t compete, outside delivery companies like UPS or FedEx would take a hit, I mean, we could go on all day with the trickle-down collateral damage. What’s the plan when that happens? They gotta come up with something, and you’re going to have to somehow take care of your citizens who now have much fewer opportunities to make a decent living. New industries we can’t imagine right now will pop up, I get it, but I still don’t see there being enough, so unless we get everyone in the gym 6 hours a day so they can be instagram models, we may have a problem on our hands lmao.
"citizens who starve in streets"The only people who "starve on the streets" choose drugs or choose not to take their psych meds. The biggest health problem among "poor" Americans is obesity.If you don't like Walmart or Amazon, then don't give them your money. Just last week I stopped in a mom & pop specialty store looking for something. They had it, $17.25 each. I didn't like that price and decided to look at Walmart online. They had it for $12.50. That is great!And look at how much the prices of things have gone down while quality has gone up. I remember paying over $3,000 for a laptop, and now I can get one far faster, more reliable, and longer battery for only hundreds of dollars. Amazing!"what do we do in say, 20 years"What happened to all the typists? What about the people that made dictaphones and carbon paper? If you wanted to make multiple copies of a document, you used carbon paper so you could type on two pages at once. It was messy and when you made a mistake, you had to erase on the original and the carbon copy. Bet you didn't know that the little "cc" on your email was once literal. Seriously, why are there not two million typists today getting unemployment?"$12 an hour, or even $15"Then why don't you become a nurse or an engineer. I know plenty of nurses making over $50/hr and I know some in California that make over $75/yr. They also get paid time and a half and double time.
@WalterRadio First off, to clarify, I think you misunderstood what I said as being my personal feelings about the whole thing, but it’s merely my assessment of the situation, just an analysis and spitballed projections. I’m personally divorced from the outcome of humanity, it has no bearing on me, I don’t take any of it personally, I simply observe from the sideline and take notes. Some of my personal feelings that have developed over time are in there, but the question is if I think socialism can be safely implemented and will it happen in the US, not “what do you think of socialism?” I understand you’re challenging some of my points, and I’m fine to discuss them further, I just want to make clear I’m not necessarily in favor of socialism, nor do I really care about the ultimate outcome of humanity.The starving citizens thing: that’s a little cold blooded and also a sweeping generalization. And my girlfriend almost died ultimately as a result of egregiously misprescribed psychiatric medication. Don’t just blindly trust something because it came in a bottle from a guy in a white coat, that’s a pro tip for you, free of charge. Fully agree with obesity being an issue. Healthy foods are generally not as affordable for people on public assistance, and of course, many people just eat poorly anyway, rich people, middle class, everybody. But if you’re in a position where you can only afford the McDonald’s Dollar Menu and all kinds of other affordable poisons, it’s easy to become overweight.Regarding Amazon/Walmart, I have no personal issue shopping anywhere, I’m just pointing out the reality that it’s phasing out small businesses that can’t compete, and something will have to give eventually.My 20 year projection: I already conceded new industries would emerge, and I’d probably argue that on a societally relative level, people are on the whole struggling to...
@WalterRadio... make ends meet comfortably more than they were in the days of typists and dictaphones and milkmen. But what about foreign outsourcing? Corporations are only going to try to streamline more and more, anyone can see that. Obviously there’s a threshold, but I think a lot of people will still be assed out.And on the wages, you make it seem like any asshole can just up and become an engineer or a nurse just by waking up early enough in the morning. One of the bigger lies going out there is “all people are created equal.” Some people are really smart. Some people are average. Some people are really fucking dumb. To have standardized tests tell it, which certainly aren’t everything, but at least are SOMETHING, I’m very smart. And guess what? My mother and father are both very smart. You don’t just lick it off the rocks, it’s genetic. So we aren’t born with the same opportunity for success in this kind of society, don’t ever let anyone convince you we are, that’s just a cute idea. Of course many people underachieve due to personal lack of effort, and some overachieve, but you can’t just tell the whole story using the outliers as the examples.
Foreign outsourcing makes things cheaper. That is like a hidden raise and it won't even cost you marginal taxes.Yes, IQ is strongly genetic. It helps to have a high IQ, but it is neither necessary nor sufficient for success.
Respectfully where has it worked successfully?
There are two examples of history of "Democratic Socialism". One is Sweden, the other is India. (Well, technically Nazi Germany was democratic socialism too at first, but they had a racist component).After WWII, those became socialist countries. Other western European countries advanced in prosperity enormously, Sweden was very slow. It got to the point that they were the poorest people in western Europe. Then they decided to reject most of socialism and return to being a primarily capitalist country. Now they are among the richest western Europeans.India is the biggest democracy in the world. When it gained independence, it put the government in charge of many aspects of the economy. 50 year later, the only thing that really changed is they had a whole lot more poor people than they did when they started. IT came along and the government did not have any socialist regulations to stop it. It became a capitalist industry within a socialist country. It created enormous wealth and prosperity for those in the industry. Most everyone else is still poor. It is only in industries that India relaxes its socialist grip that people have been doing a little better.Everyone owning everything and everyone reaping the rewards of everyone else results in a classic case of "tragedy of the commons". Look it up. No one is motivated to work, and therefore, there is not much reward to pass around. Let individuals own productive property and an amazing thing happens, they make good use of it and sometimes become rich.
Sweden uses nordic capitolism its not socialist
@Zodiac10 Sweden is now a capitalist welfare state, but for a period after the war, they did try socialism. It failed.
@NorthwestRider forms of Socialism. But that's not entirely bad. Both pure communism and Capitalism are doomed to failure.
@NorthwestRider So is USPS, Amtrak, and the California Earthquake insurance authority.Did you know that the Social Security and Medicare are Ponzi schemes that would be illegal for a private person to implement? Did you know that USPS and Amtrak always lose money and provide poor quality service? Did you know that the California Earthquake Authority (which was created because earthquake insurance was "too high") will not be able to pay out claims when the big one occurs?
Does the label they put on their totalitarian regime really make a difference to most people?
How can you say the current system is failing? People are better off today than ever before in history.
@WalterRadio How long does it take for students to pay off their school debt, buy and pay for a car loan and buy and pay for a house? How long did it take for boomers just as an example?
"How long does it take for students to pay off their school debt"That depends entirely upon the choices a student makes. It should take no more than five years. The only people that have problems paying off student loans made bad decisions.I will quote from www.cnbc.com/.../...r-owes-when-they-graduate.html"About 69% of students from the Class of 2018 took out student loans"That means 31% graduated with no loans."graduating with an average debt balance of $29,800" "balance in 2017 was $26,900 for graduates of public four-year schools and $32,600 for graduates of private nonprofit four-year schools"In today's dollars, my loan balance was $27,000, so well within a standard deviation. I paid it off within four years.The fact is that the majority of graduates do not have a problem with their school debt, 31% don't even have school debt.Here is a rule of thumb. Figure out what your starting career salary is going to be for your major. Divide that in half. That is the maximum school loan that you should graduate with (undergrad, as grad school for MDs, JD, MBAs is a different metric). Pick a school by its costs so that you will not have to borrow more than that. For many majors, that means community college. In today's dollars, my starting salary is $89,000.People get into trouble when they think they can pick any major and any cost of school and assume that whatever job they get will provide them a decent living. It doesn't work that way. If you graduate in nursing, you can easily pass $100k with a few years experience and have your loans paid off without any trouble before age 30. If you graduate in political science from an Ivy League school, you may find your bartender salary doesn't quite make the rent, let along paying off sky high loans. Choose wisely and you won't have a problem.
"pay for a car loan"NEVER have a car loan! A car depreciates, so why be making payments for it? That is what they call bad debt. Never buy a car without paying cash. If you only have $2,000, then you buy a car worth no more than $2,000."pay for a house? How long did it take for boomers just as an example? They got married sooner for one thing. In 1970, average age of first marriage was 23.2M, 20.8F. In 2018 it is 29.8M, 27.8F. A marriage is a business partnership. The sooner one finds his business partner, the sooner they can work together for financial objectives. And today when women have the same career opportunities, most people can approximately double household income by getting married by choosing someone of similar career.But the reality is that home ownership rate has not changed. According to the Census Bureau, home ownership has fluctuated between 60% and 70% since 1950. Today it is about 64%. In 1970 it was about 64%.Your complaint has no basis. Life is actually better today than 50 years ago. You may not know that, but that is only because you don't remember it.
@WalterRadio Thats all well and good.. theoretically speaking but its not realistic. First of all people make mistakes, thats just a fact of life and expecting them to live their lives flawlessly is cruel to say the least. Luckily we dont really make more mistakes today than 50 years ago so it should even out unless the consequences has gotten worse.Starting with student loan debt. You say that repaying student loan debt should not take longer than 4 years but the average is more like 16-24 years.As for a car loan, its often times inevitable especially in USA which has poor public transports and its cities are not designed for alternative means of transportation. If you do not have a car in USA you are technically not a functional member of society and will have to live at a severe disadvantage. For many people the only way they can afford a car at the time they become an adult and already spent all their money on education and housing is to take out a car loan. That is simply reality.Although I say that a lot of young people are delaying buying both cars and houses to invest in their education first. This is something that were not really a problem with the boomer generation who spent a lot more money on consumption and luxuries compared to the starved teenagers and young adults today.This shows fairly clearly in the statistics as the first time house buyers are around 32 years old currently where it was 30 years in 1970. Something especially interesting is that the wage is more or less similar but more than that the house prices has doubled.USA was not in a particularly good position in the first place but right now its falling even further behind.
"First of all people make mistakes, thats just a fact of life and expecting them to live their lives flawlessly is cruel to say the least"It is not my fault that other people made a bad decision. I have never made a mistake with any life decision of mine."You say that repaying student loan debt should not take longer than 4 years but the average is more like 16-24 years"People choose to make minimum payments. If one is getting a solid 15% return on the stock market through a 401k and is paying 5% interest on a school loan, then by all means make minimum payments. But most people use discretionary cash to buy more expensive cars, more expensive places to live, vacations, concerts, restaurants, clothes, etc. That is their choice, but don't come complaining to me about their loan balances after 20 years."As for a car loan"I never said one should not get a car. I said one should only pay cash for a car. NEVER buy a car with a loan. I think I have bought 12 cars over my life. The cheapest was $600 and the most expensive was $95,000. I still have four of them. See how much cash you have after insurance and registration, and that is the amount you can spend on a car. Just for kicks, I looked for cars, and see that you can buy a 1990 Chevrolet Caprice with 70,000 miles for $1,000. You don't need a loan for that."For many people the only way they can afford a car at the time they become an adult"People should buy a car from their job savings when they are still in high school. They don't go to zero value, so as they make more, they can sell it (I always sell my cars privately, never a trade in) and use that as a stepping stone.
"This is something that were not really a problem with the boomer generation who spent a lot more money on consumption and luxuries compared to the starved teenagers and young adults today."You have it backwards. The amount of living space today per person is MUCH higher than in 1970. Today, people expect air conditioning, flat panel tvs, cable/satellite, cell phones, expensive clothes, airline travel, computers, restaurant food, more than one bathroom in a house, and entertainment. Those were rare to nonexistent 45 to 50 years ago. "Something especially interesting is that the wage is more or less similar but more than that the house prices has doubled"There are reasons for that. First of all, houses today are much bigger. In 1970 the average home size was 1,500 ft2. Today it is about 2,700 ft2. There are now dishwashers, microwaves, communications wiring, much better windows and insulation, granite, multiple bathrooms, attached garages, central air and heat, more extensive building codes, and more expensive construction labor. If a house is 2/3rds bigger and has a lot more upgrades, then of course it will cost about double. I won't get into government regulations or equal opportunity for women. But as it turns out, if you wanted to buy an average house built in 1970 with average 1970 fixtures, in most parts of the country that house will cost you relatively about the same, even less, than in 1970. The places where it is much more expensive are where the government interferes with new construction, environmental regulations, and labor laws, causing land shortages; that is a legitimate complaint, but more government isn't going to help, as it is government causing the problem.
@WalterRadio I feel the biggest problem here is you relying on your personal experience which seams to be getting in the way of you seeing the actual problem. Kind of like Donald Trump saying people who are struggling should get a million dollar loan from their dad.A good example of this is probably in regards to cars. Not everyone can just pay cash for cars and not to mention that cheap cars comes with expensive problems. If you do not know what you are doing, which applies to the majority of people who isent a car enthusiast or a mechanic, buying cheep cars is a dangerous gamble that can both cost you your money and your life.Can you really empathize with the average 18 to 35 year old millennial who has a net worth of less than 8 000 dollars? Also you are probably studying for your life to get something of value out of the terrible American school system so do you really have time and energy to do home financing when you could spend that better in school anyways? Or rather, you have to spend that in school to have a chance in the first place.Lastly lets just go through a few other things. You probably consider mobile phones to be luxury items yes? In a sense they are but on the other hand not having one impacts your ability to function in society and puts you at a disadvantage. Young people 50 years ago also went on more travels but thats not really important.Lets talk about house prices for a moment. First of all there is a higher need for better construction today because of climate change. You require more insulation to protect yourself against cold, more AC to protect yourself against the heat and more areas are at risk for damaging storms. We no longer use things like lead water pipes or asbestos which are cheep in the construction either and the people who construct modern houses are much higher qualified and do it to a much higher standard which comes with its own price tag.
Living in houses built 50 or more years ago because its cheep comes with its own problems. Just like cars, cheep homes can come with expensive problems and just like cars you need an expert to know what to look for. Most people today could not identify asbestos or lead pipes. How do you know if the bathroom is leaking or if there is dangerous fungi growing in the walls? What about the AC or heating?Thousands of people die every year in USA because of heat and there are also people dying from the cold and other weather related problems. These are serious concerns.
"cheep comes with its own problems"It sounds like you are starting to understand that if you want something better quality that it is going to cost more money in general.What many people who complain about how expensive things have become ignore is how much better they have become as well (electronics is a big exception where they have become both better and cheaper). It is not a fair to compare a Kia Soul to a Jaguar and complain the Jaguar is unaffordable by comparison. But when you talk about the cost of housing today to 50 years ago, that is exactly what you are doing.It takes some real effort to dig into the numbers and to learn about how people actually lived in the past. But when you do, you will discover that everyone is better off today. Yes, some are better off than others, but that is what led to everyone being better off.
@WalterRadio Just because you have a better car or a better house does not necessarily mean you are better off than 50 years ago. That is especially true if more and more people have to compromise with worse quality because the price has risen. As I have said before, these milestones such as buying your first house or paying off your student debt is being delayed further and further because people are struggling more than before. This is not the signs of an improving society.
If you have a better house and better car (as well as better healthcare and more free time), then of course you are better off.What today has worse quality than 50 years ago?People are NOT struggling more today. Not even close. The only difference is that some people are doing a lot better relative to other people. But everyone is doing better.
@WalterRadio Really now? You do realize that the average collage student only has like 4 hours of sport and leisure time right? Unless the days were significantly longer 50 years ago I highly doubt that todays students have more free time.
"You do realize that the average collage student only has like 4 hours of sport and leisure time right?"I was referring to adults. You do not say what your hours are per. Day? Week? Month?
"you relying on your personal experience"I was there. i saw it. I also look at data. You are the one limiting yourself to your brief personal experience."cheap cars comes with expensive problems"I am exactly correct. Cheap cars have ALWAYS come with expensive problems. Cars have become so much more reliable these days and that is part of why they are more expensive. A simple example are tires. Do you have any idea how often people had to change flat tires 50 years ago? And they sure didn't last 50,000 miles. People would celebrate having a car that lasted to 100,000 miles. Now, that is nothing."Not everyone can just pay cash for cars "For $1,000, yes they can."buying cheep cars is a dangerous gamble"But that is how people lived 50 years ago, so stop complaining that cars are now more expensive. In 1969, there were 5 fatalities per 100M VMT (vehicle miles traveled). Today it is about 1. It costs money to achieve that safety improvement. Stop complaining about the cost and celebrate that life is better today.
"Can you really empathize with the average 18 to 35 year old millennial who has a net worth of less than 8 000 dollars?"My mother divorced my father when I was a child, so I grew up poor in rural Kentucky. We raised chickens, shot squirrels, caught fish, picked weeds, and grew vegetables for much of our food. For snacks, we would pick up popcorn out of a field (with permission) after harvest or pick blackberries from the sides of the road and edges of the woods. Since we didn't have an allowance, in middle school I would ride my bicycle for miles with a trash bag picking up cans to trade for cash. A typical summer day would not be going to camp or vacation, but spending a couple hours hoeing weeds, almost every day for all of us children. The house we lived in had 1 bathroom for 7 people. When we woke up on winter mornings, we sometimes found that water left in glasses in the kitchen had frozen. On hot summer days, we had one little window unit that would only cool one room.If you bought our old house today, your mortgage would be $227 per month.The problem isn't my ability to understand what it is like to have less. The problem is that few millennials have any idea just how good they have it."You probably consider mobile phones to be luxury items yes?"You do not need a mobile phone to live the lifestyle of the median person of 50 years ago.
"Young people 50 years ago also went on more travels but thats not really important."No they did not. Most people stayed really close to where they lived, except for those who got the government paid-for vacation to Vietnam. My maternal grandparents and mother had never gone outside of a 100 mile circle until after 1980, with the exception that my grandfather got a government paid trip in the USMC and my grandmother got a war time trip to Detroit to assemble tanks. Go talk to people over 70 years old and ask them about life in 1970. You will get a few vagabonds who hitchiked (no airline or hotels). But they are the minority. Not many people had the money or the time off to travel. "First of all there is a higher need for better construction today because of climate change"That is totally untrue. The reasons why there is better construction is for energy efficiency, human health, fire safety, earthquake codes (in some places), and hurricane codes (in some places). Note that hurricane frequency has gone down over the past 50 years. This is all good news that standard of living is becoming better. So stop complaining about the cost."You require more insulation to protect yourself against cold, more AC to protect yourself against the heat"Um, a degree or two doesn't matter. And your statement makes no sense in light of the house I grew up in would get below freezing inside and had hardly any A/C, even on 100 degree days. It is not climate change that driving insulating homes. At the time, we were told by climate researchers a new ice age was coming. So we would need less insulation as time went on (the house had very little) It is the choice that people don't want to live like that anymore.
Roads are socialized. Public schools are socialized, SSI is socialized. Are you gonna fight against those?
Dude every country has roads and public schools. Use common sense realize that isn’t what I am against. What I am against is a government ran like Soviet Union. If you are going to take me out of context like that why should I even give you the time of day
You took the entire argument is out of context. People are usually talking about socializing a certain thing, like healthcare. But if you say the word at all people freak out and say we're gonna turn into Soviet Union, like you did.
Lol clearly you didn’t read title or opening post I would spell it out to you but I guess you’re to stupid to understand that.
The Soviet union was not "socialism" You're taking an incredibly complex concept and boiling down to a single buzzword. There are effective and good ways to run any system of government. The problem is that humans are always corrupt