You need to define your terms. Sociopaths disagree with most on what good and bad is. It's also wrong to assume that good and bad are just understood in majority opinion because that's how some of the worst acts in human history were justified.
@Adam_INTJ the niche circumstances don't make the rule. To make rules based on that is silly. Also. Sociopaths know the difference and just don't care. They choose to do bad knowing it's wrong. Psychos don't know the difference... and they're crazy.
I wouldn't say im crazy. Yet i dont see why killing some people would be a bad thing. For example, killing a child rapist. Or a serial killer.
you acknowledge the act as bad, but put a qualifier for those specific cases which suggests you know the difference
i believe myself to be a good person. So yea
doesn't make you bad
Yea i did say i believe myself to be a good person. Meaning that in my opinion i am a good person. So i just brought myself as example to see what you would say.
Most everyone thinks of their actions as justified. I brought up the sociopath because it illustrates the problem that intuitive sense of morality is unreliable. Then, majority opinion also sucks because many bad thing have been justified with that: slavery, racism, the halocaust, the atrocities of the USSR, etc. You can't just say "this is good because I feel it is so" or "this is good because most people feel it is so" actions of all levels have been justified that way
@Adam_INTJ the fact sociopaths are aware of the morality structure disproves your own point. Because your premise is that morality is a sense of feeling and that because of this a sociopath doesn't know due to his disconnect from that sense. But sociopaths are aware and choose to act outside of it. I understand where you were going with it. It just doesn't prove the point you were making. Quite the opposite.Sidenote: Justified and good aren't the same thing, which most would acknowledge. Justified is more a term for "morally forgivable". The circumstances don't make bad acts good. Just given a pass in that new light. Which goes back around to. Which dog you feed.
Wrong. Sociopaths are aware of what people THINK is moral. They don't feel it though, kindof like knowing that people love a food but not having the same strong feeling towards it. From webMD on sociopaths: "A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior." If its all about reinforcing behavior, then there ought to be a cure for sociopathy, but there isn't. You clearly are missing the gaping holes of invalid argument you are using
@Adam_INTJ you're saying the same thing in different words.If normal people know the difference and sociopaths know what normal people think... sociopaths know the difference and act anyways...Again lol. You're not thinking this through man
Sociopathy is a result of childhood and traumatic experiences. Sociopaths are made. While psychopaths are born. Please remember the goddamn difference when arguing about it. And psychopaths aren't really crazy. Many people are psychopaths to some level and most psychopaths are normal humans.
No. It's different. Knowing what people THINK is right and wrong is irrelevant. Other people's perception of right and wrong has no more bearing on morality than their opinion on physics does in changing the laws of thermodynamics. You need to define right and wrong, because we don't agree about how it is determined. It's not some majority opinion thing.
@Adam_INTJ you have your view of the topic and will bend anything to suit what you currently think. Have a nice day
Then a person who helps out at the orphanage and is otherwise good citizen is a bad person for being a psychopath?
Or a baby? Is the baby evil because its species is human?
If said psychopath sometimes hits the children at the orphanage out of anger, then yes.Minimizing suffering is, by most people's standards, valued much more highly than increasing happiness.Most people would not punch a toddler in exchange for free ice cream.And if they did, giving 7 other toddlers free ice cream would not make up for them punching the first one, not in the view of most people.Good and bad are not equal.Not doing "bad" things is the expected standard, both socially and biologically, since most healthy, psychologically adjusted people will have their selfish actions inhibited by the ability of their ego to try and preserve its own well-being as well as the well-being of others within the same species.
The toddler thing depends on how hard you punch. So you think that a baby is evil? The psychopath is evil even though he/she doesn't act on evil ideas?
"Or a baby? Is the baby evil because its species is human?"Yes, babies are quite evil, in fact.A lot of young children seem like they have no empathy, and that is actually because the part of the brain that controls it doesn't develop until the age of 6~9.Of course, children don't have the physical or cognitive capacity to commit as much evil as adults do.
So if i killed every single person on the planet, would it make me a good person for getting rid of bad people or a bad person for killing? Bad things should be fixed after all, to reach something close to perfection.
So a serial killer who only kills rapists is a good person? Technically theyre helping children. But also killing someone's family.
It isn't considerate though. You're taking away the chance of the rapist turning their life around in prison
Yet they have done a bad thing. doesn't raping make you a bad person?
It does. But I never said that you can't transition from one to the other
So the serial killer from my previous reply could be a good person if they helped out at the orphanage later? What if they did the two at the same time?
Being a serial killer isn't being considerate. Think about what you're saying
Yea we went with that. But if they were doing something good at the same time? Like helping out old people or whatever. Would that change your judgement?
No. Cos being considerate means you're considerate always not only in certain situations.
So you believe that such thing is achievable? Always being considerate i mean.
Would you then say that you are such person?
Nope. I'm working on it though
isn't it somewhat bad to think that a person can be what you deem perfection while you yourself haven't reached that yet? isn't it bad to expect more from others than you are at this moment in life?
I don't expect it from anyone. I'm not judging people. Thats a very immature outlook on life. Why wouldn't you want better for other than you are yourself?
But how are you not judging people? I made hypothetical situation with people, actually based on real story, and you deemed the serial killer a bad person although they were killing rapists. You judged them. Is being considerate really for a person's own good? Or for your own? Who really benefits?
Then it renders your entire question moot. If everyone is considerate it benefits everyone
So we should be considerate towards people who you judged as bad people? wouldn't being considerate lose its point? If people are considerate no matter what you do, whats the point of being considerate?
Dude I'm done. You're circling around the same point and refusing to listen to what I'm saying. I hope life teaches you over the years to be more open minded. Cos you have a perception of how things should be and you're not willing to budge. Anyway take care. Cheers 🙂
O no. I have my views. But i am not against your views. Im just trying to explain why it can't work with the way humans are built.
Thanks for mho ❤️
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So if youd help a person for your own well being, it would make you a good person?
Helping people with good intentions from the heart and not looking to bring attention to yourself makes you a decent person.
So if you help people to seem more friendly and to seem like a better person, that makes you a bad person?
Then does helping someone because it gives you some benefit make you a good or bad person? you're using the person but also helping them.
The Jews killed Jesus Christ. Not very moral!
So if you didn't knew that a thing is bad, for example killing a child molester, would that make it less of a bad thing?
It's like if a dog does something you dont like. It doesn't know better. If a person does something bad but is unable to discern between right and wrong then they're still in the wrong obviously. But I wouldn't call them evil or bad. Sick maybe, or damaged. As for killing a child molester? Well murder is bad. And if know that and still kill them then yea that kinda makes you bad. Although I'd call that necessary evil. Two wrongs dont make a right but then again who said that person was trying to be "right"?
Yea i guess i can agree with that.
Knowledge of right and wrong doesn't change the right and wrong of it. Just because a sociopath isn't aware of morality doesn't change the right or wrong of their actions
No it doesn't change the right or wrong of the action. But it does affect their personal accountability for their actions. How can they truly be a bad person if they can't discern that what they're doing is bad?
So what actions are considered bad?
Ones that hurt others
So hurting a person who has killed many would be a bad thing?
Well it depends on perspective. Why did he kill many people? Maybe it's better to out him in jail
So the reason matters? He still killed many people. Even if they were bad people, it still hurt them and their families.
Buts not for you to decide unless your a judge. And it does matter that's where intentions come in
So a persons life is worth less because someone thinks killing him helps others?
I didn't say that. I said don't hurt others you said kill someone who killed other people. I said no they go to jail. It's not for me or you to decide. Killing isn't the only way to hurt someone. If you want to be good just don't hurt anyone. And the government handle other people that's not your duty
So if a murderer has faith in Jesus, theyre good person?
Better than a murderer without faith in Jesus
Faith does not make someone good. Salvation will get you to heaven, but just because you're going to heaven doesn't mean that you were good here on earth.