Every child has a loving home, they have food, clothing and education. Women have safe haven's from abuse and a chance at a normal life. Single parents have support systems. Even then there are still children of rape, incest, war. It's an incredibly complex issue. It's far more complex then a lot of people will acknowledge. Even birth control and the access to it is severely limited to many many women.
Those are extreme cases that make up less than 1% of all unwanted pregnancies
If they were unprepared to be parents, they should've thought about that before they had no condom sex without pills, which is almost always what happened in an unwanted pregnancy.
I happen to disagree, but I have no wish to get into an argument with you.
There's a difference between an argument and civil discourse
Yes and I've seen your other comments and I don't want to discuss further. I felt like expressing my opinion and I did. You think that the examples I gave a rare and I disagree.
They are statistically very rare
A 1996 study of 44 cases of rape-related pregnancy estimated that in the United States, the pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45). A 1987 study also found a 5% pregnancy rate from rape among 18- to 24-year-old college students in the US.
Those are still small numbers and they're invalid as they're very old studies
The abortion rate of women with Medicaid coverage is three times as high as that of other women (NAF)
Among women who obtained abortions in 2015, 41% had no prior live births; 45% had one or two prior live births, and 14% had three or more prior live births (CDC).Among white women, 10% of pregnancies currently end in abortion. Among black women, 28% of pregnancies end in abortion (CDC).
These are the stastics from the CDC. One of my arguments was that women who economically disadvantage have fewer choices.
There are 107,918 foster children eligible for and waiting to be adopted. In 2014, 50,644 foster kids were adopted — a number that has stayed roughly consistent for the past five years. The average age of a waiting child is 7.7 years old and 29% of them will spend at least three years in foster care.
If they're so poor that they can't even afford a $15 pack of condoms at the gas station, then they clearly aren't ready for kids, yet they still had sex knowing their stuff isn't together and they're likely too young to be thinking about sex anyways.
These are 2019s numbers.
I'm not saying responsibility doesn't come into it. I am saying that men do not end up dealing with conquences more often than not. That there are far more reasons than irresponsibly that come into play. That adoption is not the perfect answer people think is given that minorities experience more unwanted pregnancy and yet that minority child are adopted at a lower rate. There's a lot in play. My answer is that I will support it until a time that both mother and child have the support from society to thrive in society. At this point they don't.
Are you unaware that they have to pay child support, and it takes two people to properly raise a child? Adoption isn't the perfect answer, I agree, but killing certainly isn't either.
Well you are right that many women getting pregnant are young. But the question is have they been educated? Women who have received sex ed and a decent in general are less likely to get pregnant. I've known women that grew up without sex ed that literally didn't know what sex actually was let alone how to prevent it.
Birth control if not used correctly is not as affective. Studies have put affectiveness of over the counter birth control as low as 72%. Getting accurate results can be very difficult because few people report birth control failure.
I disagree, they have no reason not to report the birth control failing to work as doing that will prevent it from improving if ineffectiveness isn't brought to light.
As of 2019 only about 61% of men pay support. Of those the number who are underemployed or sepratically employees is extremely large. Which means stastically the number of women left to raise children on their income alone is huge. You add that they tend to be younger, less educated women and you stack the cards against them even further. Yes we have things in place to protect children, unfortunately, even when enforced they don't work.
Whether they have a reason or not there is a fact that people don't report. Which makes gathering correct stastics difficult.
Read that again, the majority pay support, and quite a lot at that
Yes 61% pays but that leaves 39% with no support plus children whose father's aren't making a decent living make the problem worse. With these stastics if a man pays $50 a year it counts the same as if he's paying a million. If you look at the staggering number of children that are living below the poverty line the argument that they get enough support is hard to justify. Added to the problem are children who are growing up without role models because their parents are not around either because they choose not to be or because they have to work constantly just to provide shelter and food. Do I think abortion is sad and not the greatest part of our society? Yes. But I'd rather people wait until they are physically, emotionally, and financially responsible to become parents in hopes that fewer children will live in poverty, foster care, etc. The argument often comes down to when you think a person becomes a person and when it if you think abortion is murder and I realize we have different answers to those questions and are not likely to ever come to an agreement on them
That's why they use condoms, contraceptives, or abstain unless they are prepared to face the repercussions, and they pay much more than $50 per year. Many pay $1,000 per month.
Then why'd you share your opinion and come here if you aren't open to having your mind changed?
I am open to having my mind change. But I have yet to hear something that would make me Pro life.
But I am definitely not trying to “win” anyone over. I don’t want to change anyone’s mind.
I'm tired of stating it, read my replies to other people
Ok. I went through your replies... nothing I haven’t heard before dude.
And you're still for abortion? Let's see if we can find common ground. Look up a life cycle of a baby going from inception to birth, where's the latest you'd support it?
I’d support it to the end. And most abortions aren’t that late term like in the third trimester but usually when it does it is related to a medical or health issue.Birth is generally the time I start to cherish and value a life unless the individual wants and plans on keeping the child or at least bringing it into the world by her own choice.
Abortion isn’t a constitutional right.
Should not be covered by tax dollars and should not be done via PP which is a foundation of racism. Abortions should be off the table at the point when life begins. Human life is constituted by brain activity.Unless we want to go by astronomical science to which life is determined by bacteria or simple organisms
@Tslaveee Well it is a right, or it should be. It is in the UK. A bunch of cells is not yet a human being with a brain.
Actually it isn't, nowhere in the constitution does it say anything abortion, which is killing an innocent human life because one couldn't bear the consequences for their own reckless actions.
Nowhere in the constitution is it a defined right. It isn't even alluded to.Also, it isn't a religious debate. Killing a human being is wrong - no matter how small they are.
@Rangers It is not a human "life" but a bunch of cells - they can't feel anything. The woman, however, will feel, and will be forced to go through a pregnancy and childbirth. What makes YOU think you should have the right to dictate what is a CRUCIAL change in a woman's body? And it isn't for you to judge a woman and call her "reckless". You have no idea what any individual woman's circumstances are.
@GigiMary abortion is a legislated right. Not a constitutional one. What is a constitutional right is the right to bear arms and without it you cannot form a regulated militia.Now Democrats do you know when your party started infringing on the 2nd Amendment? Hint it was after slaves were freed.
@GigiMary This isn't about "size" it's about being sentient or not, and a bunch of cells - which is what there is at conception and in the early stages of pregnancy - is not sentient, it has not yet become a human being. It isn't a grown baby.
@xyz94 Good so we agree that we determine human life differently than biological life. Now when does human life begin? Post birth or when brain activity begins. Because death is once the brain ceases to work. People who are in a coma or vegiststative state still have functioning brains just at a lower degree, they’re still human. Killing a woman whose pregnant is a double murder not singular. Regardless if she was to have an abortion, still a double death.
@Tslaveee just because the law says something doesn't inherently make it moral.@xyz94 we are all clumps of cells - what makes us human is that we are clumps of cells with particular genetics formed at conception. You avoid reality when you try to devalue human life by using misleading terms like that.
@xyz94 In America ma’am your left wing associates deem it okay to terminate a child post birth. That’s not abortion, abortion means to eject out of a situation, there is no ejection once the delivery is complete. Abortion should be prevented past week 10/12
@GigiMary I’m not for abortion at lest to a degree shamed to say. Learn to read
Fact check, @Tslaveee @Rangers. Constitution states the right to bodily autonomy- the right to do what you want with YOUR body. Is a fetus going to survive outside the human body? No. That means it depends on A WOMANS BODY.
Im harshly against it, because there are so many ways to prevent a pregnancy. Its just poor planning, laziness, stupidity or a combo of all 3 by both parties involved that you have an unwanted pregnancy today. Abortion is nothing more than running from responsibilities plain and simple.
@Valiant The baby isn't your body, you don't have 20 fingers, you don't have two hearts, that heartbeat is separate from yours, therefore, you have no right to decide whether or not they get to live just because you can't face the consequences for your own reckless actions.
@VaIiant oh oh guys here comes CNN to fact check everything haha
@Tslaveee Always a good source of information...
@VaIiant Here a biology lesson, the child and mother are separated by a placenta and umbilical cord. It’s in its own sheath within the mother. Mother is not above the law and has not right to end life based on her inconvenience has nothing to do with religion has everything to do with right to life.
@Tslaveee Except its not always for convenience. Maybe the pregnant woman was raped and doesn't want to be reminded of the trauma she experienced from being raped. Maybe there are other factors to consider like if the girl is a teenager, her body is still developing and complications from childbirth leading to death aren't uncommon. Abortion is a personal choice. Plus the earth is overpopulated as is.
DWD1994 Actually it is, it's only medically necessary, rape, incest, failed pills or failed condoms in less than 1% of all abortions. Killing isn't a personal choice, it's immoral and against the law, killing babies is not a good way to deal with overpopulation.
@DWD1994 dude the extreme case of a woman being raped or incest should not overide everything else. There are exceptions.That’s like saying we should ban guns due to mass shootings, they are a fucking extreme situation that rarely happens. More people die annually in Chicago from gun violence than have died from mass shootings since the first one in 1964.
@DWD1994 then let the Indians and Chinese abort since they combined equate to a third of the worlds populous.
It's really not about the law as much as it is about answering to God for me. God has his own law.
@Tslaveee You seem to be ignoring everything else anyone has said. LOL. CNN. Did you not hear me? I'm a LIBERTARIAN. I'm conservative, you twat waffle. Don't make assumptions about whether one is a democrat/liberal based on their belief a woman has control over her body.
@Valiant "Twat waffle"? Wtf? And don't give conservative libertarians a bad name
@VaIiant libertarians believe in doing what you want as long as it doesn’t affect anyone else. Your decision on abortion affects the life growing within you. Therefore that isn’t a don’t tread on me policy since you’re willingly trampling on that baby/fetus/zygote however the fuck you choose to dehumanize it to justify your means to an end
What do you mean @xyz94 it's not a life anything that's got a heart beat and developing is a life any woman who has had an abortion should get 1st degree murder...
It's not a constitutional right. It is a legal right in some countries but even then there are restrictions.
@drummer73 What do you mean "heartbeat"? THERE IS NO HEARTBEAT BECAUSE THERE IS NO BABY IN THE EARLY STAGES OF PREGNANCY. A baby takes a good few months to start growing. A bunch of cells is what is aborted, because a human being has not yet developed. If a woman wants to prevent the development of a growing human inside of her BEFORE it starts, that should be her choice because it is her body which has to endure the pregnancy and birth.
@xyz94 There is a heartbeat, it can be detected on ultrasounds at 4 weeks. Go online and look up pictures of unborn babies at 4, 5, 8 weeks. They look, and are, human beings. Arms, legs, a head, organs. Research fetal development. If you want to argue for or against something, do proper research.
@WintersDaughter 4 weeks is literally a once in a million chance. It’s typically 8+ weeks
You talking about the heartbeat? Because there is actual scientific proof that it starts at 3 weeks. Again, research.
@WintersDaughter people are arguing for aborting 1-4 week old babies ok cool. However legislators don’t see it like you do they see it as open season. You can abort at any stage throughout and in NY and Virgina you can kill the child after birth which is called infanticide.
Women typically don’t even know they are pregnant until week 6 or 7. So to say it’s just a bundle of cells is a fallacy because by then it’s already taken shape and organs are near the stage of development. So even your guys argument for abortion contradicts with the science of the entire matter
@GigiMary What about Roe V Wade?
@WintersDaughter I’m on your side of the argument so don’t go on a tangent but the baby doesn’t develop arms limbs until week 8. Organs develop from week 9-10. So if someone were to have an abortion it should be prior to week 9. Go figure 9 being the end. Just as in its numeric value. Most women miss their period so by the time they find out their pregnant is about week 5-7 and in that case they should determine whether to abort week 5-8 (which is a month long to decide) or carry the child to term.I don’t see why some women toy with the child’s hope of seeing the light just to abort 25 weeks or more in.
@Tslaveee I'll agree on that. Second trimester is iffy but third trimester abortions should be illegal. If the fetus can survive outside the woman's body, abortion = no.
@VaIiant we agreed the entire time you just didn’t see. The baby is a baby post week 4. But doesn’t have organs such as brain or heart until week 9-10. Meaning no blood pumping nor brainwaves till then. I’m not sure if you’ve ever been pregnant but ask your mother when do women typically find out and she will say after a while because of a missed period
@Tslaveee Well women who are trying find out sooner, but yes, its typically after week 4. As long as the baby is not able to survive outside of a woman's body I believe abortion should be legal- not necessarily right, but legal, as I'm a libertarian. If the baby can survive outside of a woman's body and an abortion is preformed and they kill the baby, that is murder.
@VaIiant My cousin was born week 26. And he needed to be placed in a incubator but could live on his own essentially. I just fundamentally disagree with you there. I’m libertarian too and I don’t care what you do to your body male or female but if there is another life being jeopardize due to ones actions then that crosses the line. As a libertarian you should see this, but I understand it is difficult being as you’re female.
@Tslaveee See I do not value the fetus as a person. I'm sure if I did my views would be different. However I believe that protecting that small percentage of women who are victims of rape, underage, or will die from complications is important.
@Valiant again, we're talking less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies that fit that criteria, that means all the rest occurred because they chose not to use the other 4 options they had available which are abstinence, contraception, condoms, or parenthood. Rather than make it an absolute right because of extreme examples, it's a much better idea to make it general that they can't get it unless it fits any of those extremes. Can we find common ground there?
No- contraception doesn't work 17% of the time if you're using a condom. Not everyone has access to birth control such as pills/implants due to financial resources. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent. Not everyone wants to be a parent. You cannot POSSIBLY have an idea about what percentage of unwanted pregnancies were rape, because not many women come forward with that information. Not to mention the amount of women whose bodies cannot survive pregnancy.
@VaIiant so then people shouldn’t be fucking for fun, sex leads to pregnancy which is the ultimate responsibility a women has. Killing that child is between you and God.
Even if only 10% of women who got pregnant because of rape came out, it's still an extremely small percentage of unwanted pregnancies. And if that statistic were true, the number would surely be higher. If they're not cut out to be a parent, they should've thought about that before they engaged in an activity that's meant to make babies and without using those options. Even then, they still have no right to kill the baby. You can't tell me with a straight face that a woman dying of pregnancy is going to get swept under the rug by anyone. It seems to me that we can't find common ground because you won't place the life of the baby as being important as the mother's. Do you see that to be a fair assessment? I believe that no human life is more valuable than another, regardless of how old, what race, gender, or whatever.
@Valiant sorry, I forgot to tag you
Abortion should be an option but extremely limited. Because let’s be honest if it wasn’t available women would seek it in alleys and with unlicensed ‘doctors’ to perform the procedure.It just needs to be the last option and at a certain stage in development that’s it. Incest and rape are extreme rare cases just as mass shootings are and should not dictate gun legislation.
I feel that as long as the fetus cannot live outside it's mother than it's up to mother if she wants to carry it. Do I regret the loss of a child yes. But as I stated there are so many factors against both mom and child that forcing the issue is not something I would ever make another deal with. And as it's pointed out if you take out the legal option people find illegal options. Women have been aborting since as far back as we have records whether legal or not. Passing a law won't change that.
Its Vaiiant, if you're looking to tag me.You're right. Its between the woman and God. Not the woman and the government. Church and state are separate for a reason.People are going to have sex, LOL. you cannot say "people shouldn't be" because people ALWAYS WILL. I myself don't want children. Does this mean I should be abstinent for my entire life? Realistically that is just moronic. Rape is a higher percentage than people believe. I know SO many women who have been raped. Several who've become pregnant from that- and those are people I know. I cannot imagine how many as a statistic whole there are.Thats where we disagree- I believe not everyone has the same value. A mother has experiences, a life, family. A fetus has nothing. Its a human, but not yet a person. I believe someone like Adolf Hitler is not as valuable to the world as, say, Martin Luther King Jr was. Stalin is not as valuable as Clara Barton. Not every life is the same.Its okay if you disagree- thats your right. But you will not change my mind
@VaIiant no it means get your tubes tied.
@Tslaveee And I likely will. The reality is doctors in America are 10x less willing to tie tubes then perform an abortion, ironically. If you do not have children and are young, many doctors will outright refuse you.As I said. You cannot expect women to just "not have sex".
And actually some insurances require your husband's permission or a doctor saying you are mentally unfit or physically unfit unless you make it under their rules which is often at least 2 children and a certain age.
Here's some rape statistics, the rate released by the FBI based on reports are 1 in 1,900. Similar studies show that 40% of rapes go unreported. The most and I mean the most generous number is 6.1 in 1,000. Your emotions don't change the numbers
@Valiant Those people weren't innocent human lives, they killed millions of people. I should've been more specific as I was more along the lines of an innocent human. I don't view those who aren't as less than human, but killing them can be justified if they're actively trying to hurt others, which those people were.
@Insomnia72 a decision that is absolutely wrong on all levels. The court ruled in the most unconstitutional way it could have. Thankfully, we have a court that might finally realize the injustice and unconstitutionality of the decision.
@GigiMary A woman isn't an incubator. She isn't an industralized baby maker. She's a human being. She comes first, not the fetus. She should have senority whether to be a mother or not. By allowing her to choose, you are respecting her rights as a human being and giving her the dignity of that choice. By taking away that right you are reducing her to cattle, an animal that hasn't been given a choice. This prolife stance is backwards, forcing females to reproduce against their will and go through all that hardship should be unconstitutional. Yet the Constitution clearly states the right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."
@GigiMary roe v wade was passed by a lie. She even admits it on 60 minutes
@Tslaveee the heart is there by 3 weeks. That's why there's a heartbeat, it's pumping blood at week 4. Brain is working by week 6, that's when the brain starts admitting activity. They also have arm and leg buds. ALL organs are present and forming at week 8, the baby is also MOVING. Literally, basic biology. Do fetal research or, maybe, watch abortion footage. You can see the arms and legs that got torn off and the organs.
@WintersDaughter you’re clueless, I’m glad you’re anti abortion but you got your shit all over the place.
Plus heartbeat doesn’t equate to life because when someone’s heart ceases it can be resuscitated however the brain is the defining point of living and dead
@Tslaveeewww.curejoy.com/.../www.mayoclinic.org/.../art-20045302www.whattoexpect.com/.../embryology.med.unsw.edu.au/.../Timeline_human_developmenthttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0gAsdEUNUJYwww.gloria.tv/video/Eqmrqja911Mu2qmMiX2V8KzpHhttps://www.cbruk.org/abortionrealityLast 2 are LIVE FOOTAGE of abortion, so watch with caution or don't watch.
Are we still arguing about this shit? FFS, stop telling people what they can and can't do with their bodies.
@DDW1994 It's not their body, it's a human life
And what about the mother? Does her life not matter?
@DWD1994 She should've thought about her inability to parent before they had no condom sex with no pills
You realize condoms can fail right?
@DWD1994 the most generous percentage of unwanted pregnancies caused by failed pills, invest, failed condoms, or rape is 5%
Look everyone’s going to stay in their position so there’s no point of further discussionWomen need access to abortion otherwise they’ll turn to black market and alleys.There needs to be a deadline of around 8-9weeks and no further unless there are complications further in pregnancy where she must abort to preserve her health and life. That’s it Democrat’s want one extreme and Republicans another and as a libertarian I can see the best logical option is to have a agreed upon deadline.
Unless you’ve conducted those studies yourself shut the fuck up @Rangers
@Valiant Exactly, you can't make a valid argument, so you resort to insults
And you can’t rebuttal. “Shut the fuck up” isn’t an insult. It’s a request you invalid. See, that’s an insult.You literally have nothing to back yourself up.
@Valiant You can't form a proper sentence. And yes I have, many times, but you simply ignore them. You're literally like a child who throws shit around in a store because their parents wouldn't get them the toy they wanted. You know you're wrong, but you're too insecure to admit it and you're embarrassed that I'm smarter than you and you think insulting me will make you look like the winner. You need to work on yourself, a lot.
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I see you ignoring me homie
Girls leave abortion clinics smiling, after just seeing their own baby be sucked out of them. Then they go have lunch with their friends and gossip. It’s truly sick and women are evil.
That’s your opinion.
No. That’s what women do. You’re telling me that going to have brunch with friends, leaving the clinic smiling is an appropriate reaction for murdering your baby and literally watching/feeling it squirm and kick? Women literally are selfish they abort so they can go and party or pursue their “career” yet men’s lives end once they have a baby but we don’t have anything similar to abortion. We have to pay child support and are lives get ruined, we actually care we don’t just kill the baby and run away happy as can be - that’s fucking SICK
You’re completely straw manning the whole argument and looking for an excuse to judge. A lot of women aren’t smiling. A lot of women are confused or feel they have no better option.
They still are unaffected by abortion. They are smiling and probably happy that they killed their baby, so they can party and be free to hookup 24/7.
I can assure you that’s not the case.
How would you know? How do you know that ISN’T the case?
How would you know it IS the case?
Because women love abortion.
So what. No one said you have to.
But I hate girls because they’re so evil. I just don’t get it. I wish girls weren’t like that🙁
Good luck with that.
You even said so yourself
Who cares what you think.
You’re just the perfect embodiment of what I hate about women. You defend your immorality, and just attack men for not accepting it. Girls literally encourage each other to cheat on their bfs, and to date multiple guys, and to go home with a different guy every weekend. And they think it’s acceptable to then turn everything over on men. It’s sick.
You’re the one attacking women and now attacking me.
I’m not attacking them. Im saying I find the way they behave to be disgusting and I don’t agree with it. How am I attacking you?
By calling them sick and evil... your behavior is unacceptable.
I think they are if they fucking abort their baby and leave the clinic smiling to go meet their friends for brunch. That is sick to me.
You’ll get over it.
What does that mean? You think that is acceptable behavior?
It’s not up to me to decide what someone else does or how they feel afterwards, and neither is the case for you.
@Alfie_Solomons It’s a good thing men have never done anything sick or evil, otherwise you might not have an argument
No they're not, it takes two people to get pregnant
But it takes one to birth. No one should make her birth if she doesn’t want to.
Nobody is making her do it, it's her own fault she's pregnant and it takes two to properly raise a child
You don’t get to decide that.
Neither do you, it's THEIR child, not her child
She can take his opinion into consideration but she should be making the final decision.
They shouldn't have the right to, that's a separate human life in there
Well have to disagree there.
Please don't argue with a 17 years old. Your smart enough to avoid that. Its clear that's he is very childish. Please don't waste your time :).
@Alfie_Solomons I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding about a woman's mindset when they get an abortion. Very few women act the way you describe. Additionally, the man wouldn't have to pay child support if they were a direct part of the child's life. So I'd criticize the father for running away and only being willing to help support the child financially but not emotionally.
@Alfie_Solomons So... you're there to see this smile? LMAO
@villageidiot girls are very evil and selfish creatures. You’re just a slave to their sexual power so you don’t see it
@Alfie_Solomons Is that your conclusion from your many years of experience with woman?
@OrallyFixated yes it is but other men have told me this too so it’s not just me.
@Alfie_Solomons In 17 years, or is that a lie?
@OrallyFixated well since around 14 I’ve seen and heard of girls being fucking whores who are alcoholics
@Alfie_Solomons You need to find a better class of female to hang around with. You selection so far appears... questionable
@OrallyFixated that is around 90% of all girls my age. So no.
@Alfie_Solomons that's a very generous number
Yeah I know it’s most likely higher but I’m trying to be nice.
@Alfie_Solomons 90% of all girls your age Huh? I’m betting you haven’t even spoke to 0.001% of the worlds female population that is around your age. You can’t even speak for 1%, never mind 90%
@OrallyFixated you know there's a thing called sample size, right?
I do actually. I learned all about it in my business statistics class. But what would you say is your sample size? Your high school? Maybe a neighbouring school as well? And how many of the females your age have you actually talked to? Did you poll them? All of them? That’s still hardly enough of a sample size to judge a world wide population by. Ask your math teacher, they will tell you.
I realize my mistake here. You are not Alfie... but the questions remains
Several thousand, and I finished school, I don't go anymore
Several thousands huh? 🙄 Okay fine. Let’s use a nice round number. 10,000? Fair number? Current female population world wide? Approximately 3.8. Do you really think your sample size is sufficient to accurately reflect the behaviours of 90% of women? Hardly
Do you know the accuracy and margin of error?
Alfie has displayed and admitted to having toxic and abusive thinking towards women and society at large. He admits to needing psychiatric help but refusing to seek that help. His opinion on abortion should be dismissed entirely.
@MzAsh You need to look in the mirror, you're a flaming misandrist, you're the one with no credibility.
And who are you? That’s right. We have no idea.
Ok so you’re two times my age and picking on me
I'm a conservative libertarian
Well, conservative libertarian, I’m not trying to attack Alfie. He legitimately has issues which is where his abusive language comes from. I’ve sympathized with him and extended my advice and offering of help in a different thread. It’s important to understand but not excuse bad behavior like his.
And your behavior is totally acceptable?
Unlike him, I’m not calling all men as inherently whores, cunts, evil, or sick. Feel free to discuss anything I’ve said about men as a gender and challenge me on it. I’ll wait.
Bad behavior? You don’t understand. PM me
You always take the woman's side no matter what, I've never once seen you do otherwise, even when you clearly knew who's at fault. You believe men shouldn't even be able to talk about this when it's just as much their issue as it is the woman's because it takes two to make a baby. Look at it this way, women are far less into guns and more emotional, so I could say they shouldn't have any opinion about banning guns because they don't know what they're talking about. Can you imagine the backlash I'd get if I said that? Yet you can say that and get away with it when it's just as ridiculous and illogical.
I’ve never said men shouldn’t be able to talk about this issue. They can and they do quite often on here. But the final executive decision when it comes terminating or not terminating a pregnancy should ultimately go to the one who’s pregnant since she’s the one most impacted by that outcome.
In other words, the man has no say in the decision when that's his baby, too. Also, you seem to not care at all about the life inside the mother, which is concerning. Especially considering you haven't once argued that it's not a human life. I appreciate honesty there, but it still doesn't make it moral.
He does have a say, just not the final decision. Regardless of what you want to call it while in the womb, it doesn’t change my position. If you think that’s immoral, that’s your opinion and no one said you had to like it.
Killing an innocent human life is objectively immoral, and I believe the only reason you're fine with that is because a woman is doing it.
Believe whatever you'd like.
Exactly, you have no logical retort
I’ve already explained my position. You basically said “I don’t like it” and then judged me as immoral. Why should I be invested in what you think? Why should I care?
Because I have reasoning and you don't
Claims come, then evidence follows. With you, it's just claims and that's it.
The evidence being that no one should ever force women to bring her pregnancy to term against her will. That’s unacceptable. Way more unacceptable than terminating a pregnancy in my view. I don’t know what else you want.
Again, nobody is forcing her to be pregnant. She chose this by not using pills or condoms, we're preventing her from killing an innocent human being.
Which I don’t agree with.
That “innocent human being” is not yours. It’s hers. Unless you wanna adopt it. But of course no pro lifer wants to do that.
You approve of killing an innocent human being for a woman's convenience because she couldn't be bothered to use pills or condoms, I don't think I need to say anymore as that speaks for itself.
You can't own a human, it's not an object
She’s the authority. She says what goes or doesn’t go while it’s still inside of her.
No she doesn't, that's a separate human life, nobody gets to decide whether or not an innocent person gets to live or die without consequence, this is the only instance where it's allowed and it's not any difference. Assholes driving 20 miles per hour on the tollway are a huge inconvenience to me, but I have no right to do anything to them and if I did, I'd go to prison and rightfully so.
And what are you going to do to stop each individual from having an abortion? Nothing.
Vote for it to be banned, which will greatly reduce the amount of women killing babies
Ha yeah right.
You should have an open mind, if you look at this debate objectively, if you're capable of doing that, it's very clear who's more reasonable.
You’re a 20 year old kid. I’ve spent your whole lifetime debating this topic. We aren’t going to agree so it would be wise to drop it.
I knew you'd try to bring up age because you can't make a valid argument against me. You're a misandrist who can't see anything objectively and always thinks women have the final say in everything. I agree we won't find common ground, you're beyond saving
And you’re just some child out punish women for having sex. Think what you want you’re not doing shit about it. I don’t care what you think, in case you haven’t noticed.
That mist be why you keep replying and getting mad every time I expose you for who you are. You like to talk big and bad like you're smart, but when someone who's logical comes along and disagrees with you, you can't make a valid point to save your life.
And they're not using the choices they had and think their recklessness gives them the right to kill babies
You’re obsessed with shaming me for my belief. Look around you. Most people are pro-choice. Every time some republican conservative holy roller tries to ban it, it gets knocked down for being unconstitutional. Because a woman’s life is more valuable than an embryo. Yeah I said it.
It's not an embryo, it's a baby. Making bad decisions doesn't give them the right to kill the baby, period, it's murder. It's a hell of a lot closer than you'd like to admit, a few more people like me, and the majority will be against it. You're also contributing to people being against it, which I thank you for because it's so easy to expose people like you for what you truly are.
@Alfie_Solomons You can support abortion but also be against child support. Im against child support but I support the right to an abortion. These 2 positions aren't mutually exclusive.
@MzAsh men are the ones punished for having sex. Not women. Are you stupid? Women are encouraged to sleep around. Women are sluts and are proud of it. They can abort a baby so they have consequence-free sex. Men do not. You’re very clueless, just jumping on the anti-man hate train it’s disturbing. Please crawl out of your Feminist box and use your brain.
@Alfie_Solomons wrong on every level
She should've thought about her inability to be a parent before she chose not to abstain, use condoms and/or contraception. It is a separate human life with a unique genetic code and a heartbeat that's separate from the mother's, she has no right to end an innocent human life against their will, period.
Contraception is never 100%, dont act like it is. And you completely ignored everything beyond that. And no, until that child can survive outside the mother's womb (even on life support) it is not a separate life, it doesn't have am independent heart beat because that pulse is completely dependent on the bodily functions of the host.
Yes, but it's a separate heartbeat. You're going based of dependence and that's a scary logic to follow
Not really. Because if the mother died, so too would the child. And during the time that a child can be aborted, there is no way to support its life afterward
Any child up to I'd say 16 years old can't survive long without their parents either, so do you support the killing of them if it's not convenient for the mother? A balls of cells is what we all are in a nutshell, and we're all humans and as such, nobody has the right to kill us unless we are actively trying to kill them. Yes it does, but that's NOT her body, that's a separate human being in there and ending its life is murder. I'm not trying to control uteruses, I'm simply forbidding women from killing innocent human lives. They do control what I do, but nothing that's unreasonable yet. And the right to kill a human being is exclusively offered to women, don't get me wrong, I think nobody should have that right, hence why I'm pro life.
Doesn't the Constitution say that LIFE is one of the 3 fundamental rights? How is murdering a baby supported by the Constitution?
@Rangers Oh shut up. 16 year olds survive without parents CONSTANTLY. You realize children are on the streets, right? And survive? Your argument is a fallacy. Did you ignore everything else I said... its not a human being. It doesn't have a heart, a brain, opposable thumbs. It has the CHANCE to become a human being.You've spouted your pro-life nonsense on every single pro-choicers opinion. You're not going to change someone's mind, so fuck off and get off my post.@updog45 The cluster of cells isn't alive. There is no life there.
Your post? I posted the question, lol. It's not nonsense, it's called morality, something I suggest you work on and learn self control. I can share whatever opinion I want and promote civil discourse if I want to, and I will whether you like it or not. They may be alive, but being on the streets isn't much of a living. Your failure to counter me and childish use of insults has made my arguments for me. The world doesn't revolve around you, I don't have to agree with you and if anyone is failing to influence people it's you. You made a statement, I countered it, and you haven't made a substantive argument. The fact that I posted the question and you're telling me to get off of YOUR post made me laugh theatrically, I'm still laughing as I write this. The childish behavior is through the roof
All I heard was you, insulting me, while being offended because I told you to shut up. This being your question has nothing to do with you arguing against every single person whose pro-choice, yet refusing to argue against any scientific evidence."Haven't made a substantive argument""its NOT a human. Just has the possibility to become one, just like sperm""Constitution provides bodily autonomy" "It has no vital organs, no feelings" The only thing you countered was that "a 16 year old can't survive without their parents", and then you changed it to "it wouldn't be much of a life". Make up your mind.Its not KILLING A HUMAN. Its terminating a ball of cells that can't survive outside of the woman's body. What about rape victims? Or a 13 year old girl who couldn't survive the pregnancy?
Such extreme examples make up less than 1% of all unwanted pregnancies, as such, almost all abortions are done simply out of convenience because the mother couldn't bear the consequences for her reckless behavior.
The "ball of cells" growing in a human womans uterus is indeed human life. The cells are alive, and they're human. It's a human life with its own DNA and genetic code. They're a potential "person" if you're in the camp that separates human life from personhood, but definitely not potential human life. Why do many people who are pro abortion often resort to claiming that people who are against abortion want to control women's bodies? I have yet to see anyone who's anti abortion claim that they want to control women's bodies. The majority of people I've met who are anti abortion ARE women. Personally, I suspect that people resort to that claim in order to avoid dealing with the fact that abortion is the killing of a human life, or having to defend the fact that they're ok with killing a human life for their own convenience. I definitely agree that the government should be involved in as little as possible, but the fact is that abortion IS the ending of an innocent human life and the declaration of independence (not the constitution) DOES codify the inalienable right to life. I don't see any way to reconcile the 2.
What constitutes a human life then?
Show me at what stage in the pregnancy the human becomes human and no longer a bundle of cells, because you have a poor understanding of science.Because what’s stopping someone from killing you? You’re nothing but a bundle of cells that form organs
Feel free to tell me at which stage of development do you consider this bundle of cells deserving of life, Reaper. To me personally it seems 9weeks would be the final straw. The fact it has developed a nose mouth and ears by then is also troubling but hey, those bundles of cells can deceive the human eye so you never know.
Not really going to merit any of you a reply. Enjoy your time
Wrong usage of the word merit but it’s ok we accept your concession
okay god.. you aren't responsibe, you trip, fell and landed on a dick. it is instead the horrible orphanages that make you obligated to rule over life🤢🤮
I'm not forcing her to have a baby, I'm preventing her from taking an innocent human life
Also, if you're admitting that it's a separate being, then you acknowledge that it's not her body, that's a human inside there.
That’s forcing her by making her go through the pregnancy when she doesn’t want it.
She put herself in that situation by not using any of the choices she had which were abstinence, contraception, and condoms.
You’re assuming that that is the reason for the pregnancy AND if she doesn’t want to do those actions, she should not be forced to. It’s a choice.
And a parasite is a separate being which can only live by feeding off the host. That’s why they’re killed because they can kill the host and are unwanted. Fetuses are similar. If the woman does not want it INSIDE her body, she should have that right.No man should have any input in this.
In almost every case when an abortion is performed, it's done simply out of convenience. In almost every case, the woman chose not to use any of the other options she had available that would've prevented the unwanted pregnancy. Yes we should, it takes two people to get someone pregnant, and you're not the all powerful, all knowing God (or whatever you believe in), men have every right to disapprove of women killing babies out of convenience because she made bad decisions and can't bear the consequences.
whahahaha im forcing but you jumpen on Dick. narcissism is strong in this one, nature force you for the dick you took. im just telling that it's sick, thinking you have the right to end it, there's no sense of shame neither
while man should be forced to pay for it right.. sending me to court.. really.. seek help
A developing baby is a parasite to this woman. Hope you tell your children that's what you thought of them. Realistically I actually hope you never have children, because I'd hate to find out how you'd treat them, probably worse than these orphanages you complain about.Your mom should have swallowed you, honestly you're a sad excuse for a human being
@Nachowedgie You lack basic reading comprehension and have proven that you’re moronic, so your opinion is worthless. The other one is similar. I don’t like to waste my time on the uneducated whose only argument is misconstruing what is said or appeal to emotion which is fallacious and ad homenims.Ranger: No you shouldn’t. You can have an opinion but you should not have anything to do with the woman’s choice unless if she decides to give you that choice.There are women who use birth control and condoms and still get pregnant. It does not matter if they choose to use contraceptives or not. That is their choice as they should have the right to choose to be rid of the fetus or not. Forcing her to carry when she does not want to goes against her basic human right. That fetus has ZERO rights until it is born as it should.
I've told you, I'm not forcing her to carry, I'm preventing her from taking an innocent human life. And they're very effective, times where they fail are very rare and again, she acknowledged going into it that there's a possibility of her getting pregnant, neither the guy or girl should take that chance unless they're prepared to face the consequences for doing it. And both of you please keep discourse civil.
And I’ve told you that taking away her right to Choose forces her to continue a pregnancy she doesn’t want. It’s not up to you or anyone else. It is up to her.
It's not how it should be and you know it, it makes about as much sense as me suing an officer for shooting me when I was about to kill an innocent civilian because he assaulted me. No, he was doing what he had to do to prevent me from taking an innocent human life.
If she didn't want to be pregnant, she should've used condoms and/or contraception, or just not have sex. It's that easy
And by your logic, what determines whether or not it's a human life is whether or not they're wanted, I think you made my argument for me there.
No I understood everything you said perfectly, your opinion on my intelligence is worthless, you don't even know how many genders there are xD You just refuse to engage with people who's opinions differ from your own because you like to hide away I'm your little echo chamber. So instead of talking you fail at insulting someone's intelligence in an attempt to slander their name and avoid talking to them. "Misconstruing what was said"Please show me where I did that? I'd love to know, was it the part where you called a baby a parasite? Or the bit where I'd be afraid to know how you'd treat your children considering your disgusting attitude to their existence.
Don’t be fucking if you can’t handle the responsibility. It’s his sperm that fertilized your egg, you simply are an incubator for life. Women are trying to tear down the Father Son and the Man
Nobody has the right to kill an innocent human life because she made bad decisions that she can't bear the consequences for
I've seen dramatizations of them, I'd really rather not watch real ones as I could barely stomach the virtual dramatizations of one.
The virtual one (I'm assuming you mean the one with that abortionist doctor?) isn't a dramatization. The child is torn apart, limb by limb, with the brain crushed. It's barbaric and cruel.
If they're having sex, they're acknowledging that it may lead to pregnancy, especially when they don't use contraception or condoms, which is almost always the case in unwanted pregnancies. Nobody should get to decide whether someone lives or not, regardless of how bad the circumstances might be, they'd rather be alive and have a chance to turn things around than to be dead. Those are extremely rare cases where I believe an exception can be made. And that still doesn't counter my point that it shouldn't be anyone else's decision whether a human gets to live or die.
I already said which arguments are and which con. The example you gave with skipping BC i already discussed it. If BC fails and they can't take care of the kid why would you force them to have it? And if they skipped BC you still shouldn't force them, because they are clearly not responsible enough for a kid. They should be educated and be held legal conseuences though.
I'm not forcing them to have a baby, I'm preventing them from taking an innocent human life
Who will take care of that human life, you?
A family member, a couple that can't have their own kids and want one, anyone.
Most kids don't get adopted, it doesn't work that way.
Why isn't adoption an option or does the inconvenience of the pain of labor convince you to go through termination?
Read what I wrote before tou
Most kids don't get adopted? That's it? You said it yourself; a life is lost -- the lack of responsibility should never result to abortion.
So we should be like the Spartans and throw unfit children into the ocean because they may have a mental or physical defect? You can only love perfection huh you decide whether someone has the right to life based on your prejudice
@RangersI'm reading some of your responses to the pro-choice women on this forum you started, and it's really grotesque. Something happen in your life that turned you into a sadistic misogynist in which you enjoy watching women suffer and go through an unwanted pregnancy. The fact you're just 20 years old suggest to me you're one of those religious mgtows going around this website. The things you're saying is really disgusting. It's just a fetus and it's not yours. You want to be a hero? Adopt an abandon child from an orphanage. Perhaps then you'll understand how difficult is single parenting and realize, hopefully, why abortion should be an option no matter what. Feel sorry for such children because your contempt for abortion means nothing if you're not going to take care of orphan kids, at least fund the orphanages with some contribution.
@Insomnia72 I'm not religious, I'm a conservative libertarian. I'm not MGTOW, I'm talking to a woman and taking it slow with her. In over 99% of all unwanted pregnancies, they simply chose not to use pills or condoms and couldn't bear the consequences, that gives them no right to kill another human being. You're very inconsistent, you try to take the moral high ground when you support killing babies and proceed to call me a religious, sadistic, misogynistic MGTOW member. Your stance is undefinable. You liberals make my job so easy, I don't even have to tell people why you have no credibility because you do it on your own.
@Insomnia72 insomnia go get some sleep my guy you’re delusional and hallucinating
@RangersAh, you're "taking it slow with her". Well that's nice, seen that you're talking to women older than you. Though yes, someone should decide if someone should live or not if that someone is developing in their body for 9 months, and that someone isn't going to receive proper care when it's born and instead be cramped into an orphanage. So you'd rather the fetus be abandon than die? Well who should give you the right to make that decision? Are you okay with your taxes paying these orphanages, feeding and housing unwanted kids, for what little it does? Do you not see that as a drain on resources? You expecting women to go through an unwanted pregnancy sounds like you want them to suffer it all as a kind of punishment.Let me change the angle here a bit, do you think it's okay to put down puppies and kittens in a kill shelter because it's too crowded, too low funded to house them since no one is giving them a home?
@Tslaveee I can't sleep, that's why I created my user name as such. Still, I know I'm making sense. I support the pro-choice view. Why are you so concerned about a fetus? If you care about kids, adopt them or fund the orphanages. Do something to contribute support to the unwanted.
@Insomnia72 Why are you speaking Latin? Fetus means small child lol.
@Jesse0 Not sure about latin, but in English fetus means unborn.
Unborn small child
@Insomnia72 because it’s a child and not a fetus. If this were the 1800s you would be telling me why do you care about negros they’re property not human. And then you’ll be saying ok but their max 3/5ths of a person
Because changing the terminology dehumanizes said subject and when you make something or someone lesser than it is then you can do with it as you see fit.
@Tslaveee That's not an accurate analogy. A fetus (unborn) is not a child. A child is a sentient being, as are black slaves walking around outside the uterus, but a fetus isn't sentient. It's still heavily dependent on the mother. If the mother dies, so does the fetus.
if it's a women's body. then it's also my money and time which i can freely choose to spend with or keep by myself, may the person decide on letting the baby life
@surrealZuenveld Try that BS in court. You helped to make it. You take care of it. But a woman shouldn’t have to suffer if she doesn’t want it. The livelihood of that being will likely not be good if they are born because the mother didn’t want it. So have it suffer in life or end it’s existence before it suffers?Also, it cannot survive outside of the womb so it is a parasite feeding off the host (mother). Her right to get rid of it.
@AuroraRoseat you're saying that only men should suffer for a decision y'all both make. that's so hypocritical that it's sickening
go ahead and end those lives you monster
ill just make sure to put nothing into y'all 😅
You’re likely not going to get one anyway. And I said that since the child is born and it takes two to make it, that is why the man is responsible if he tries to abandon the child. The born child’s interest comes first.A fetus is different since it is not born and relies on the host for sustenance. Thought it takes two to make, if the host does not care for it and since she is the one responsible for its well being, then she should have the choice on what to do.It’s that simple.
Your logic trail is very flawed, you first said it's her body, but in the end, you refer to the baby as a being. So you acknowledge that it's a separate body in there, not one, that's a human in the womb, yet you're still okay with women killing it out of convenience? If they'd used the three choices they already had which are abstinence, contraception, and condoms, they wouldn't be in an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
What are you not comprehending? There is a difference between a baby and a fetus. One is born and had rights while one is not and doesn’t. I refer to the baby as a child because the mother desires the fetus to be born and thus has rights in that case. This is why men are charged double for murder: there was a desire to have the child come into the world.
you could also keep your legs closed. it's nature.. y'all aren't gods who reign over life because they are made to bare it. this has to stop, entitlement is out if this world..
@surrealZuenveld abortion will never stop even if it becomes illegal women will just do it in a back alleys
@surrealZuenveld and technically women are the holders of life so that's why we get the choice
do you hear yourself speaking?
@surrealZuenveld yep I do, nothing wrong with what I'm saying. I have two kids so i know how hard the struggle is and if a women doesn't want to be a mom then she shouldn't have too
Nobody is forcing her to be a mom, she chose not to abstain, use contraception and/or condoms. We're simply preventing them from killing an innocent human life.
So you think it's better for a baby to be brought into a world where it's not wanted? I dont see how that's a good idea. Even if they got adopted into a another family that wanted them they would still have abandonment issues and struggle
I believe nobody has the right to decide if someone should die or live their life. Think of it this way, someone I know gets into a horrible car crash and he's paralyzed and on life support, do I have a right to pull the plug? Absolutely not, that's a cruel and immoral act of ending an innocent human life against their will.
I dont agree with that, nothing wrong with death. Everyone has to die at some point, just a matter of time. Everyones life has a purpose. Even a unborn baby still had a purpose
Exactly, whether or not they get to live shouldn't be up to someone else
Eh but its different for moms since they are the ones giving life they also have the right to take it away
you should be locked up. you sound like a dangerous psychopath
No, it takes two to make a baby
Takes two to make a baby but only takes one to birth a baby
@surrealZuenveld I'm not at all. I have two kids and obviously gave them life. I just support the women that want to have abortions
And it takes two to raise one properly
yes you do sound like one. if it wasn't for the law then you showed all these signs: socially irresponsible behavior disregarding or violating the rights of others inability to distinguish between right and wrong difficulty with showing remorse or empathy tendency to lie often manipulating and hurting others recurring problems with the law general disregard towards safety and responsibility
Agreed a child does need both parents
If she doesn't want to get pregnant then don't have sex because having an abortion is straight up murder...
There's only one person that should control death and that's the good Lord above our heads
@drummer73 it's truly a female's choice, god gave women the power to choose life or death for a baby
Yes! This x100!
We're not forcing you to have the baby, we're just preventing you from killing an innocent human being. If you don't want to get pregnant, abstain, use condoms, and/or birth control.
Don't use contraception argument, it makes you look very uneducated. Who the fuck doesn't know about Pearl scale in 2019? Still, it's like I said - the right to body autonomy stands higher than the right to life. No one has the right to violate anyone's bodily autonomy and everyone has the right to decide whether someone else can use and feed off their body or not.
No, nobody has the right to kill an innocent human being simply because it's convenient for them, that's a ridiculous argument. It's not her body, she doesn't have 20 fingers, that's a separate human being with a unique genetic code and a separate heartbeat to the mother's and she doesn't have any right to kill it.
Exactly, the fetus is not her body, it's a foreign body that drains energy from hers without her consent and it is her right to remove it from her body. Bodily autonomy is not ridiculous. No one can use your organs without your consent
She committed an action that she knew could lead to pregnancy and did it anyways. Her inability to bear consequences for dumb decisions made in the past gives her no right to kill an innocent human being.
You can call people who don't want to be virgins forever dumb, I don't care. No, this doesn't apply to the laws that we live by. If someone causes a car accident he isn't there left to die because he caused that accident. If someone falls off the stairs he isn't denied medical care because he should have been walking more carefully. If someone is in prison he isn't forced to donate blood because he still has basic human rights. And bodily autonomy is one of the basic human rights - you can't take them away from anyone
This is much bigger than that and helping those people doesn't require the killing of an innocent human life, and neither does it in this instance. Therapy, government assistance, and help from family members will help 100× more than abortion and doesn't involve killing babies, so why not do that?
You don't understand. A woman might not want a kid or to be pregnant EVER. I know, a difficult concept to you, but I will try to explain: it means that she doesn't want to be pregnant not only today but also if she was 10 years older or 10 times richer with a husband. Never. Pregnancy causes irreversible damage to a woman's body and health, there is no kind of "other help" that can change that fact. But what I wrote above is not a proper argument, therefore, it doesn't matter what are her reasons, I wrote it only for your information because the concept of women never wanting kids seemed unfamiliar to you. The main argument that is undeniable is that bodily autonomy right stands higher than the right to life. It's like with this situation: There is a right to bodily integrity. And there is also a property right. So if someone came into your house and refused to get out, the policemen have the right to remove him from that house by force, even though they are violating his bodily integrity rights by this action - this is because the property right stands higher than a bodily integrity right. Sometimes rights collide with each other - and there is always a right that stands higher in hierarchy.
If they don't want a kid, then they shouldn't go having no condom sex without birth control with every guy they see
And this is the point at which you are losing an argument.1. Many women who are married and use contraception still get unwanted pregnancies 2. You didn't refer in any way to the fact that bodily rights stand higher than the right to life. Thanks, goodnight.
Less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies occur because of rape, incest, or failed contraceptives or condoms. And I have, nobody has the right to kill an innocent human being, that's not an opinion, it's a fact. That's a human being in there and as such, they have no right to kill it, especially not just for their convenience.
The right to bodily autonomy doesn't give anyone the right to take a life.
I'm not forcing them to have kids, I'm preventing them from killing an innocent human life. I didn't force them to be pregnant, they did that on their own by making bad choices.
Yes you are. Condoms break, pills fail, people get raped. You guys always say "bad choices" as if all births come from unsafe consentual sex between two mature, financially stable adults. Innocent human life is overrated as fuck and will probably be our downfall.
Those extreme examples account for less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies
In that case, we should allow those cases to have abortions then, shouldn't we? Or are we just going to ignore them? 1% of 7 billion is still 70 million people forced to have babies they might not want. Just in America that's 3.5 million. .. And are you sure? Really really? Best you go double check because 1% is bullshit.
You're right, it's less than 1%. And yes, if it's medically necessary, then that's an exception to the rule, but otherwise they don't have any right to end an innocent human life. Therapy and support is a far better route to take for the mother and doesn't involve killing a baby
Again, bullshit... But Oh I guess for you over 3.5 million people are "acceptable colleteral" to save some unborn fetus! Do you have any idea how much is 3 million people? That's almost the entire population of Finland.In the meantime, you don't support free health care, free education, homelessness, or gun control... Hell, you don't even seem to care about 3.5 million lives you just ruined. Its almost as if you don't give a fuck about people after their born, you just care about satisfying your own twisted morality.
Free health care is a scam and doesn't work, as is free education and gun control is a violation of our right to self preservation, and they decided not to use condoms or contraception, they should bear the consequences and not kill an innocent human life.
I totally disagree with you that baby's got a heart beat anything that is developing is a life they go out and fuck get pregnant then KILL THE BABY they need to pay for what they did and that's with 1st degree murder
Now you're just choosing not to read. I want to say "I hope you get someone accidentally pregnant and she dies during child birth" but I hope none of you idiots actually breed.
You're inability to look at the facts and resort to attacks makes my arguments for me, typical leftist.
How can you have "If you're a horny teen and end up pregnant, have an abortion" and "But honestly if abortion ends up being your route scape for not practicing safe sex then you're obviously doing it wrong" in the same sentence, it's literally the definition of hypocrisy
Because he/she is a teenager and their brains are not fully developed. The part of brain that helps a teenager work through reasoning isn’t fully developed. Look it up it’s called frontal cortex and take a psychology class. It’s not hypocrisy, it’s called education. With this being said I still don’t thing and irresponsible teenager should get an easy pass on this, but the truth is that if that baby comes into the society and the parents decide not to properly raised becomes a problem for the society later on... it’s just a trolley problem
I will never support the killing of an innocent human life
Then you can have the kid and be the single dad. Good luck!! Or better yet adopt some of the kids in the foster care system as we all know there are WAYYY too many, I actually think more people should adopt rather than have kids in general.
Wait hold on you are the asker and said you had an open mind and then put a statement to my response even though you were willing to discuss with the guys 😂
That's not a substantive argument
I am open to a civil discussion, but you seem unprepared to have one, which is very typical of pro choice advocates, unfortunately.
It's the media, they make it seem as though men use pregnancy to control women, and the advent of abortion freed women, so women who are themselves against abortion are polling in favour so as to protect women from the controlling patriarchy.The thing is, in the between the 1930s and early 2000s, bad men were often portrayed as dragging women to people who could "get it fixed", i. e. abort a pregnancy. My vote was not about legislation, but about how I perceive abortion.Abortion is not about sexual liberty, it's the termination of a human life. If I'm overreaching anywhere please let me know.
@JNewbb women in the 1930s and 2000s also searched out abortions on their own? I think at the end of the day the unwanted child is almost* always left to the women to take care of, obviously this isn’t always the case but the majority of the time. I’m not trying to change your opinion on abortion and I don’t think an online forum is really a productive way to change people’s thoughts on it. I was asked a question about something that I believe in, that women should have a right to their own bodies. I do think it’s gross and perverse that the media protrays abortion as only being about sexual liberty and that people that are pro-life only seem to highlight that subject. Abortion is a highly personalized choice that yes have been forced on women and have also been taken away from women, in both cases the men (or other women) were taking away women’s freedom of choice. Pro-life also seem to think that it is an easy decision to make, 1. Its expensive af, no one is having this as their first option. 2. If you decide right away to terminate then you are terminating a grouping of cells. 3. If the mother does wait longer into later terms then it is never because she just didn’t want it, there is also a large medical concern and reason for termination.
@OldTimeFlicksChick When I said it was about the termination of a human life, I did not intend it to suggest that there is no complex situation, I do believe women should be given extensive support and pro-life without this is a bit disingenuous.Many of the answers here suggest that termination is a reasonable option under all circumstances, this is dehumanizsing of the unborn child and is the most widely accepted argument against pro-life.
that's the feminist bs they spew. how do you feel about animal poaching?
@Sabretooth I don't have a strong opinion I don't know a lot about animal poaching but I suppose its a bad thing but I don't know enough
Not true as many guys put pro choice. The vibes I get from them are that they said it's because they don't believe they have a say in it, which I disagree with completely as it takes two people to get pregnant. The killing of an innocent human being for someone's convenience shouldn't be supported.
Yh my bad I meant that no girls picked Pro life that's not true anymore but it was then
Basically killing animals for sport. Many disagree and actively protest... but they are not animals. Feminists believe that because we don't give birth-we should have no say-see the hypocrisy?
@Sabretooth I suppose buy I don't belive men should have no say but less control over the conclusion however that's done but it can be said men are losing their child too but I think abortion Is nessesary
How is killing a child necessary?
As in in terms of a rape victim is it fair for a woman to have to have the child
i understand-but it's not the child's fault. you'd be killing an unborn child for another. rape is bad-my mother and aunts were raped-but killing an unborn baby because of the actions of another can't be justified.
@Sabretooth true but in the case of a child being raped Is it more cruel to have a baby be born where the mother is likely to die and the baby will likely have a birth defect is It more cruel to make a disabled life or to not make it at all
That last sentence should have been "an innocent human being". MY KINGDOM FOR AN EDIT FUNCTION!
@Harmseygrace if more people exercised self-control, responsibility, and common sense when it came to sexual intercourse, the whole issue of unwanted pregnancy---let alone abortion---would not arise.
@Dchris78104 yep totally!
he look guys! a unicorn 😮✊
@Dchrls78104 Yup I agree. @surrealZuenveld Haha what do you mean?
i never heard a woman saying that it seemed evil to end the live of a fetus, generally they'll tell you that a woman's body contains 20 fingers and 20 toes, and men should not even speak about it when they decide to cut their body in half. you make sense, that's considered to exist only mythical, just like unicorn are
@surrealZuenveld Oh okie dokie I get it. Some girls are just really, really silly. I think it's mostly media that's brainwashing them in a way.
Welp, some girls' consequences are handled with a clothes hanger or tongs
i think that it's largely the entitlement that they have gained through the 'virtues' of feminism
@surrealZuenveld Yup that too. It's kinda messed up.
Amen to that...
Nobody is being forced to be a parent, they chose not to use pills or condoms, and making stupid decisions like that doesn't give them the right to take an innocent human life
Oh because pills and condoms are totally 100% effective. Did you know even the slightest trace of precum can get someone pregnant? Or that you can be on the pill and have a condom on and still get pregnant? Or do you ignore that because it just doesn't fit your narrative? You can't start your sentence with 'no one is being forced to...' and then go on to literally describe how they would be forced.
Those cases make up less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies
Planed parenthood. org great source of information. A scam company that admitted that their favorite customer is a woman who wants an abortion tries to justify the killing of babies with fake statistics, seems valid to me.
You do realize planned parenthood isn't just for abortion, right? I highly doubt they ever said anything close to what you're saying and that it was instead something spread to limit their funding. If planned parenthood was so intent on 'their favorite customer is a woman who wants an abortion' then why would they supply condoms and birth control free of cost and teach youth about protection and even provide services for pregnant woman? Have you even looked at what they do or do you just look at one article and decide it *must* be true
They're trying to sway people, when people are there, they actively encourage women to have abortions rather than actually help them
Oh, so you've gone in for information and know firsthand?
Read about them, which is clearly something you haven't done
Sweetie if I listed sources and one of them was even from them, it would be basic knowledge to know I have done my reading. Maybe provide some sources?
If it was from them about them, do you really think they wouldn't tell lies to paint a false picture about them?www.myheritage.org/.../
This guy sums things together well
Yes, an opinion article is always a factual source.
He has statistics shown there and sources
It's not a human right to kill and innocent human life, and that's a separate human in there. Medically necessary, rape, incest, failed contraceptives or failed condoms account for less than 1% of all abortions, so over 99% of them happen because they chose to be reckless and do something they can't bear the consequences for.
It is not a human when it is a bunch of cells. And it is also about the woman who is NECESSARY for that life to grow inside of HER. She has to go through pregnancy and birth.
There is plenty of availability for contraceptions, most are free, or most are ridiculously cheap. There is no excuse for an unwanted pregnancy other than pure stupidity, ignorance, laziness or all of the above.
A baby growing is its own body. Not the woman, the woman is the delivery/ life supporting mechanism.
I'll start with the fact that we all have a right to an opinion regardless of whether or not it directly affects us. Now, why do you think it should be an option?
@updog45 But it affects the woman’s body as well. Simply defining her as a “delivery/life-supporting mechanism” completely disregards her as a person in her own right. But that’s just my opinion, I’m not here to start shit.
@Rangers I just don’t think it’s fair to force an unwanted pregnancy on a person. Besides, you never know the circumstances that lead to the pregnancy.
Rape, incest, failed pills or failed condoms account for less than 1% of all unwanted pregnancies. Nobody is forcing an unwanted pregnancy, I'm forbidding her from killing another human being
Great. Again, I’m not trying to have some sort of pointless argument on this - there’s never going to be a point where EVERYONE agrees, so let’s just agree to disagree.
People can be swayed from one side to another, it's unlikely they'll admit it right there, but afterwards, it may sink in, and they might change their mind.
They do have choices, and I support those choices of abstinence, contraception, condoms, and parenthood, not killing an innocent human life because they couldn't be bothered to use any of the other choices they had available to them. Studies show that incest, rape, failed pills, failed condoms, or being medically necessary to account for less than 1% of all unwanted pregnancies.
And those studies are?
@villageidiot https://www.nap.edu/read/4903/chapter/4I'll acknowledge a few things beforehand, I did a bit of extra searching, what you'll see is that 5% account for those things, but they go in depth that they are likely to lie about what caused the unwanted pregnancy because they don't want to admit that it occurred because they were irresponsible. Next, yes, I know it sites from 1988, but their theories still hold up. Even if I were to concede that it's 5%, which I don't, that's still very small.
So what methods of inquiry make this survey a fact?
Thats very touching from someone who is alive and well, I would rather the kids get a chance at life than to cut them off before its an option.
Nobody should have the right to kill an innocent human being, that's murder
A fetus is not a member of society therefore it's not murder. Yes I had a chance at life, yes I am grateful. But I would have rather my parents aborted me than to have abandoned me. At least that way I wouldn't have to live with the pain of feeling unwanted.
You're allowing your own experience shape everyone's fate, it's not your call to allow women to end the life of another human being. And it is a human that has a separate heart beat from the mother's and has a unique genetic code, therefore it is indeed a human and killing an innocent human being is, by definition, murder.
Fetus is not a human being until birth. It is dependent on the mother. The very thing giving it life. Like i said it is the individuals choice.
Under that logic, anyone who's dependent on someone else can be killed by their dependent just because they're an inconvenience to them when that's false and completely immoral. So that argument falls apart, that's a human being and nobody has the right to kill a human being just because they can't deal with the consequences of their actions.
Her body her choice. That's all I have to say.
It's not her body, she doesn't have 20 fingers and two hearts. That's a separate heartbeat and it has a unique genetic code that's separate from the mother. Therefore it's not her body, not her choice to kill an innocent human being. It was her choice not to use condoms and/or contraception, her inability to deal with the repercussions for her bad choices doesn't change that.
What if she didn't have a choice in the conception?
What if the birth of the baby could kill her and/ or the baby
Exceptions can be given for the less than 1% of the time it wasn't them choosing to not take advantage of the availability of condoms and contraceptives.
What if she is underage.
Contraception and condoms aren't easily accessible for everyone
The parents can support them, give them the therapy they need, and help them take care of the baby.
That's a load of crap, you can walk down to any gas station and buy a pack of condoms for 15 bucks
@Rangers, abortion is basically just population control. We're overpopulated as is and there are so many kids that end up in foster care that end up being kicked to the curb.So many pro-life people aren't actually pro-life. They don't care about the mom's life nor do they care when the baby is born.
Not everyone can afford that. Why should a parent have to give up their time and money to support their grandchildren. Everyone should be able to make the Choice of if and when they want to have kids. Unless you and every other pro lifer are willing to take on unwanted children/ have a uterus then you have no say whatsoever
They do have a choice, abstinence, condoms, contraception, and parenthood. Killing shouldn't be an option
And if they can't afford $15 condoms, they're too young to be having sex in the first place
Too young? I'm in my 20s have a full time job and sometimes I can't afford to buy condoms.
Only sometimes, and if they can't get any contraceptives or condoms, they shouldn't have sex unless they are able to take care of the kid, which if they can't afford condoms, they obviously can't.
I agree with that but people still do it. Married couples aren't going to stop having sex because they can't afford to.
consent to sex isn't consent to having a child. This isn't the 17th century anymore. People dont have sex for the purpose of procreation. We have sex because it feels good.
@DWD1994 if you choose to have sex with no condoms or pills, you have to acknowledge the possibility of pregnancy.
Question: what if contraception failed? The couple took precautions but still ended up pregnant. They don't want a child and took every precaution but birth control isn't 100% effective and doesn't work for everyone.
They still took a chance, and again, that accounts for far less than 1% of unwanted pregnancies
You realize contraception can fail right? its not fool proof. Condoms break.
Basically your solution to the problem is, don't have sex.And if you do have sex, get protection. And if you do get protection and still get pregnant, its still somehow their fault..
They took the risk knowingly
I've been told its highly unlikely I could get pregnant. I still take birth control. I still use condoms. If by some chance I get pregnant I would have an abortion because I'm not financially stable enough to have a child, nor mentally capable, nor would I willingly put a child into the life I grew up in. Like dwd said you're not pro life you're pro birth you dont care what happens to the baby after birth, nor the mother.
Studies show that women who have abortions are exponentially more likely to commit suicide than single mothers, and I'm sure just about all of those babies would rather have a chance at life than to die before birth.
Because women are made to feel guilty for having an abortion.
Suicide is higher risk in kids who are in the system.
It's because they regret what they did and wish they could take it back. Fair assessment? So wouldn't it be better if they got the help needed from centers made specifically to provide them with the support they need?
Do you have any statistics to prove that?
"Adolescents who had been in foster care were nearly two and a half times more likely to seriously consider suicide than other youth (Pilowsky & Wu, 2006).• Adolescents who had been in foster care were nearly four times more likely to have attempted suicide than other youth (Pilowsky & Wu, 2006).• Experiencing childhood abuse or trauma increased the risk of attempted suicide 2- to 5-fold (Dube et al., 2001).• Among 8-year-olds who were maltreated or at risk for maltreatment, nearly 10% reported wanting to kill themselves (Thompson, 2005).• Adverse childhood experiences play a major role in suicide attempts. One study found that approximately two thirds of suicide attempts may be attributable to abusive or traumatic childhood experiences (Dube et al., 2001)."
First person to actually present evidence when requested today. Those are certainly bad statistics, but it still doesn't give someone else the right to kill another human that just might be able to work through the odds. If they don't, at least they had a chance, if an abortion is performed, they didn't. Especially since a bill to provide healthcare to babies who survived an abortion was voted against by Democrats
Or people could be responsible and use birth control
I'd love to be there when you stand before God and tell him it's your body, your choice. And you will see that baby standing there in heaven because unlike humans, God doesn't abandon children.
@ThatDarrenGuy I don't believe in God but you do you and I'll do me 🤷🏻♀️
Anything that's got a heart beat is a living individual and if you take that heart beat away you are committing murder...
Well, we all have to choose our path. As for a fetus not being a human being. Then how can someone who murders a pregnant woman be charged with 2 counts of murder? It happens.
@drummer73 😪 if abortion is murder that makes a miscarriage involuntary manslaughter
You don't control having a miscarriage.
@ThatDarrenGuy hence "involuntary"
@RangersI agree that her theory is flawed.@Hai_tis_EBy your way of thinking a quadriplegic, a baby are both a dependent so you mean we should be able to legally kill them. You are messed up in the head.
WHAT lol you have a full time job in your 20s and can't afford free condoms? LMAO or buy a pack at Walmart for like 5 dollars?
@updog45 I said sometimes bruh. I've been paying my own way since I was 16 with medical bills that come before anything else
And how are you going to handle the father who chose to eject his sperm but often times never contributes to the child's life in any meanful way. You can call the women a slut but I have yet to see one of you to shame the man
your talking through an anecdotal pov.. there's many men who stick by and help and contribute. Also, if the women tells the man to take his snake out, most men will ablige and if not they should be listening.
Like I said, if it was not your choice to get pregnant then its fine to abort or if the baby will damage the mothers health abortions fine as well.. but if you willfully spread your legs, its the now dad and moms responsibility
Yes but stores and pharmacist can refuse to fill prescriptions or sell to you based on religious reasons. I had it happen to me when I tried to fill my birth control. Pharmacist asked me if I was single I said yes and he wouldn't fill it. I lived in an extremely small town at the time. That was the only pharmacy and he was the head pharamist. Had to drive a half hour to get it filled. But I had a car. What if I hadn't? I would have been stuck. I wasn't even taking them because I was having sex but for a hormonal imbalance.
That's an extreme example that is used to sway people emotionally, but the reality is that those cases are extremely rare, almost all abortions are performed simply out of convenience. There's also adoption if they aren't ready or they can have a older family member take care of them until they are ready to be parents.
I'm not trying to sway anyone I'm just bringing in what I know and how I feel.
And I appreciate you being civil in that, but I'm just giving my own opinions when mine differ
I know and I can understand where you're coming from. I mean I'm pro choice because ultimately it comes down to the woman or the man. But if it becomes your average welp I had sex and now I'm pregnant then I guess I should get an abortion then no. But also up until a certain point like the end of the first month. After that no. I don't support it