I served in our military and still feel this way. Your post sums up the American Dream's attainability very well.
If your not an American, how could you know that? 67% of American millionaires are self made i. e. they invented something or worked hard enough to get rich. 8% have fully inherited their wealth and the rest are some where in-between. The average income of an American (if we account for currency differences) is 20,000 MORE then the UK. Also the poorest 20% of americans are RICHER then most Europeans. fee.org/.../The fact is your getting your information from our media which is very anti American and very pro socialism, as such they routinely lie and twist the facts. Our nation is better off then every other one, we have a superior healthcare system, more goods and services available to the poor then any other nation, we make more money on average etc. Not saying we don't have our issues, we definitely do, but they are none of the issues that people think they are.
The only ones that get shot are innocents by criminals or citizens not complying with an officers orders
@reptocarl2 The news tells a completely different story.
No it doesn’t.
@reptocarl2 Innocent people get killed like that all the time. And along with that, on a tied-on but separate note, as an example you have the death penalty cases where an innocent individual is literally killed, and come to find out he/she wasn’t guilty so you have the double perjury rule where the criminal actually gets away. Kill the innocent and encourage the criminal here. In other words...America: “We kill the innocent! But if you wanna be a criminal, no worries, we’ll just find another innocent guy to take your place.”(I get that not a lot of cases are like this - probably less than 5% - but it doesn’t change the fact that they are still there. Doesn’t justify the ones where the innocent person is killed...)And even if you take that one out, just for your sake, the last two points of my post still apply. And sadly those two things are kinda what America is known for around the world now lolBut yeah...
I agree with many of your sentimentsbut I do believe you are exaggerating the USA's position a bitthose who argue the USA is the best place to live.. or that Americans have the most amazing lives... or the USA is always the "good guy" in the room... are full of crap.but there are quite a few places that are significantly worse than the USA in everything you listed..BUT YES.. compared to the "Western" world.. the USA is pretty far behindcompared to the rest of the world? no... the USA is a decent bit aheadbut once againits nothing to go cheer in the streets forthe USA has some significant issues...and issues that seem to be difficult to resolve to incompetence (or simply lack of willingness)
I think you were missing the point I AM agreeing with you hahaGDP (or GNI) per capita isn't an accurate portrayal of distribution of wealthit assumes that all wealth is distributed equally (basically dividing the overall Gross Domestic Product.. by the population of the country)The United States has the largest Economy on the planet but even that GDP per capita rate is not an portrayal (usually its $50,000+ per capita... but obviously most Americans dont even make half of that)its due to Billionaires and Megacorporations (Which the USA has more of than any other nation) that dominate the majority of that GDPI think you missed the point I was agreeing with youand stating that the OVERALL Wealth of a nation (which the USA is most powerful nation.. with the largest economy) is not an accurate portrayal of that distributionand sadly many of these nations you listed are examples of that as well
I had to post this here... because where you repliedI was blocked from posting anymore.
@Stormsies I'm agreeing with you. I think it was MissMovinOn who wasn't. Thanks for informing me on that, but you and I both have the same point: the wealth of the nation is an invalid argument on his part.
Haha yesI was likeWTF O. O lolI assumed it was her (I think it was her post we were commenting on)but I didn't want to make it seem like I was disagreeing with youagreedwe have the same pointsand I think some Americans just want to ignore the reality of the situation in the USA (and its gotten much worse due to that unwillingness to act)
If you hate it here so much then leave
@reptocarl2 No one is saying they hate itpeople are acknowledging it has flaws
@reptocarl2, I'd like to make people like you leave. You're presence makes this country a worse place to live. And by the way. FUCK complying with orders from Gestapo thugs who think they are above the law. Those kinds of cops should have to watch their backs.
@Lliam you better bring guns
@reptocarl2. That's no problem for me.
@Lliam me either
@reptocarl2 So when you use it, will it be because you're a criminal or because he didn't obey an officer's orders? (just going on what you said above...)
In all but one of the very rare white officer shooting a black person it’s because they didn’t comply with the officers orders period. Many blacks have an attitude just like @Lliam that think they don’t have to obey. All you have to do is shut the fuck up and do exactly as they say. Once it’s all over if you feel you’ve been wronged THEN you take legal action. Arguing with them before is only going to escalate things. Some blacks are so pathetic they actually believe police are shooting them in the streets for the sole purpose that they’re black. That’s delusional. The other reality is we’re a country of 330,000,000 yet only a handful of media sensationalized cases have made it seem it’s happening every 30 seconds across the country
The truth is there are more cops shot than civilians by cops. So take that and shove it
@reptocarl2 Still doesn't justify the latter
Just how do you expect cops to keep peace law and order?
@reptocarl2 the fact is most cops are good peoplebut some cops are a disgrace to the professionand the crimes committed by those individuals must be acknowledged... and dealt with... they do more to harm the profession than anything else...
Again if you’re so abused and scared for your life then get out
@Stormsies but they’re few and far between and are dealt with. One is on Death row in Louisiana now named Antionette Frank. These facts are never acknowledged
@reptocarl2 I think all she is attempting to explain to you is thatsome cops abuse their position of powerand there are people who want to defend thembecause they can't differentiate between attacks on cops... and demands for justicejust as some people take critiques of American life as hatred towards everything Americaninstead of simply being... critiques of the flaws of the American systemwe need to acknowledge the flawsdo things to resolve thembut many people simply want to ignore these flawsand go on "America. Yay! We are the best"and its those individuals who prevent any real progress
@Stormsies True. He can't say that those don't exist.@reptocarl2 So you're saying that cops should shoot people in order to prevent shootings? So basically commit crime to prevent it, only because they are cops? Very hypocritical and doesn't make any sense... And I'm neither abused or scared; however, as an American citizen I will be the first to say that this country is crap, and I have no shame in saying it. So yeah... deal with it. Adios. You're 58 so you'll be gone within the next half century anyway lol
@Stormsies Thank you!
No Problem haha
@Stormsies we know America isn’t perfect but we also know we’re still the best. We have the oldest continuous form of government in the world. But some of you want to change that and make it like so and so without looking at the consequences. No place is perfect and if you think a place is then go there
I’m glad I won’t be here when you cause a civil war
@reptocarl2 I think the issue is thisMany Americans are too patriotic to accept that we are not longer the "best" at a lot of things (that YES.. historically we were)Educational standards are falling to the ground (and have been for decades)Living Standards have constantly been falling lower than other Western Nations (mainly due to our Healthcare system... which even to many 3rd world nation would be considered ridiculous) Many Americans (more so than in the past) are suffering from extreme poverty levels...you have a couple of Generations of Americans who have been barely been able to get their feet on the ground.. due to high living costs... high educational costs. ridiculous medical costs... lack of good paying jobs (Most Americans haven't seen an actual raise in decades)^ Hell.. my grandmother as a Secretary made more money than me in the 1960s.. than I do now as TA with a BA (she literally showed me her records... I took in account inflation...)that was for a woman.. during a time when women lacked the ability to get good paying jobs and she still made more money than me in the exact same industry...Corporations have a lot of control over governmental policy (which has been destroying lives for decades...)and many Americans are too ignorant enough to know what has been lost in that time... for example the FAR higher tax rates of the 1950s (literally the highest bracket under Eisenhower was 92% ... which is nearly 3 times higher than any bracket today.. on top of much higher corporate tax rates)... but weve obsessed over cutting taxes for decades nowthat has left many people helpless..largely only enriched the top... I can literally go on and on all day o. o...
@reptocarl2 You already lived through it LOL
@Stormsies yeah yeah sorry lol 😂 y’all have fun
@Stormsies have fun with that
@reptocarl2.. 52 cops shot and killed in 2018. Oo what a dangerous job! Police killed 1,165 people in 2018. You are such a dumb ass. Ex cop, no doubt. True American hero. LMAO.
@Lliam Ya I wasn't exactly sure where he got the statistics that more cops were killed on duty than innocent people... o. O its a dangerous job no doubtbut I think people just try to underplay the fact that there are some really bad apples in the police businessand outright straight incompetence and corruption...most are finebut some clearly dont know how to do their job.
@Lliam if you’re so miserable and persecuted get the fuck out.
@reptocarl2, your ignorance is bringing down the average IQ of the entire country. Make America great again and leave.
@Lliam so is yours. Even if your cop killing numbers are correct that number is incredibly low out of a population of 330 million. Are you telling me none of those deserved it? Are you telling me every single one were innocent?
@Stormsies education is easy. You want test scores like Japan? The only way to do that is increase the school day and increase the school year but people like you won’t go for that because you want handouts instead of work. The places with high costs of living are California and New York that are completely Democrat controlled. If you want a Karl Marx society go to Russia.
@reptocarl2 Hahaha man you jump to extremesfirst off.. one of the major flaws within the USA educational system is that its poorly funded (and often has its budget cut)so many schools are very underdeveloped to begin withit is NORMAL for staff members to be required to supply their own materials (which isn't the case in the more well funded educational systems in other nations)SURE.. some nations have "longer" school years..,, but the length isn't as extreme as I think you believeThe main issue in the USA is the "Summer" system.. (which was largely developed due to farming communities)in other nations they often take 2 week vacations throughout the year^ Many educators would explain that the American system eliminates retention abilities... BECAUSE the students are often required to relearn things after the summer (while other systems have a continuous school year.. with smaller breaks.. that do not harm retention rates)Another issue with the Educational system in the USA is that its not treated equally across the board (some states have well developed/funded systems.. while other states are known for low performance due to a lack of funding and resources).. On top of this.. many schools base performance on graduation rates... so there is an emphasis on concentrating on moving kids on, instead of the educational aspects... This means that many children are passed on for the sake of funding (because funding is based upon artificial success)BUT when the testing periods come around.. 1. Students will not take it as seriously because it has no influence on their grade... BUT 2. The System itself through the educators eyes it defined by the success of those tests.. so too much emphasis is put on testing scores..lots of contradictions in American system
@reptocarl2 2. Who is speaking about handouts?If I pay taxes.. I expect the services to be given?since when is anything taxes.. and a "collective good" considered a handout?No one is asking for anything freepeople are expecting basic human rights (that many other nations already provide.. that are HEAVILY capitalist in nature).. and for the programs we pay for through are taxes to be provided to us.in terms of "Living Costs"there are more involved to living costs.. than just the cost of renting a home (Which will naturally be more in cities.. than in rural communities).. and even considering states "Democratic or Republican" on the basis of Presidential Elections is ridiculous.. considering many "Presidential Democratic voting states".. tend to have Republican leadership? .. . its far more complex than thatbut if you want to label a state like California as more inherently liberal.. then fair enoughand then "Karl Marx" society?You do realize Socialism has always existed right?there is no truly 100% capitalist.. or 100% socialist societysocieties often define themselves through where they integrate those conceptso. oYou are really attempting to simplify very complex issuesand incorrectly labeling thingsmore along your own prejudicesthan what they actually are...
@Stormsies it’s isn’t money. There are many school systems in the world that do far better with far less. Again the only way to increase test scores is to increase the school day and increase the school year but you like typical liberals just want to through money at it. If you want Japanese test scores then you have to work like they do
@reptocarl2 3. Even talking about Russia.. shows me you are attempting to label me before even understanding my positions1. Russia... You do realize its not 1980 anymore? Its more of a representation of a capitalist/oligarchy gone terribly wrong.. than some "Communist" nation that it use to be (Which back then it was still a horrid mess)2. No one here is asking for a purely Socialist Society.. no one here is asking for Communism... I sure as hell dont want the Government controlling every aspect of my life... BUT I do want basic rights.. that most every develop (and many under developed) nations have already achieved? The Healthcare system for example... or how we mishandle Education (even at the collegiate level...).. because everything within those particularly systems is based upon PROFIT.. leaving a lot of normal people in harmbut im sure as hell not suggestion we become modern day Russia.. or the old Soviet Union You can love the USAand still critique its many problemsthat is how we progress as a nationNOT.. by blindly believing we are the best at everythingand attacking people who critique its glaring flaws because lets be honestgeneration after generation in this nationthings have been faltering. ..largely due to corporate elites.. and the obsession of profit...MANY politicians (both Democrat.. and Republican).. no longer serve the peoplethey serve $$$$$...
@Stormsies I disagree
@reptocarl2 and what does the Japanese school system have?Resourcesits Fundedits well respected by the Governmentwhile the US Government demonizes the US Educational system.. and skins iteducators can't succeedwhen they dont have the resources to do soand legislation that prevents them handling many of the problems in the schoolsits not just about "longer hours"and if you assume you can throw TIME.. at it.. and fix a system that can't achieve anything with the time its already using... then you are terribly mistakenEducators will tell you the issue is that they dont have the resources they need... and the government rarely cares to listenEVEN those who make the decisions within the educational community are often not educators themselves.
@reptocarl2 You are more than welcome to disagree haha
@Stormsies no they don’t demonize it and the fact is we spend more money on compulsory education than anyone else. The only difference is our kids don’t work near as much. Americans will not go for their kids working all year or 10 hours a day like others. The fact is Americans you included don’t make education a priority for kids like others do. It isn’t money. It’s the work but you don’t want to here that
@reptocarl2 First offyou do realize MOST nations have systems that have similar length days? (7 to 9 hours is fairly common)... its not like other nations have their children going to school for 15 hours a day or somethingthe MAIN reason for some nations having more school days is because of the lack of a summer (which is often 2 or 3 months in the USA).. usually they have 2 week breaks spread throughout the year... I've explained this2. The idea the USA spends more on education than other nations is ridiculous... considering according to actual statistics.. the USA is pretty middle of the board in terms of global spending (Which some other nations are spending 2 or 3 times more of their GDP)AND what makes the USA unique is the division between Federal/State.. and also the fact is CUTS into the Educational budgetHowever.. as I statedfunding is only 1 issuethe organization of Education in the USA is absolutely ridiculousand the artificial standards tend to be tedious to most staff membersthe limitations on how to handle children are also something you will hear many educators screaming about.The idea you can work your ass off and achieve everything you wantis not applicable in a society that already limits your ability to succeed from the beginningthere are many issues in the USAissues that harm people (lots of hard working people)that I just dont think you want to accept?
@Stormsies we’re talking compulsory education. I’m going to say it again. You want Japanese test scores then you have to work like they do. But you don’t want to hear that. That’s the only way
The thing you’re not saying is the kids that do go for nine hours come home and spend the rest of their time studying till they go to bed. Americans will not do that
How about we just say that @Stormsies has a point when he says that you can love the U. S. but also critique its major flaws, which there happen to be a lot of. @reptocarl2 Even you said earlier in this that the U. S. isn't perfect. Guess what that means? It can be criticized.Call it a day, shall we lol
Just don’t tell me money fixes everything
@reptocarl2 That's obvious. The U. S. has trillions and is still not worth a crap lol
@reptocarl2 You really dont listen that well do you?Have I not stated to you multiple timesthat there were many problems within the Educational system?I gave you a long listand not all them were about fundingso please dont put words in my mouththe ISSUE in the American system is BOTH.. financial... but also structural. You seem to want to create this idea that my arguments are"Money fixes all things""You just want free things"when im not arguing any of that
@reptocarl2 Was I not the one that... only a little while agolisted... Year round school for retention ratesthe flaw of artificial testing standardsemphasis on funding based upon artificial rates (graduation for example)legislative limits on the abilities of teachers o. oOnce againStop making claims about my argumentswhen you know very well (and can just scroll up) to see that I've never claimed the only issue is $$$
@Stormsies the issue with compulsory education isn’t the government either. It’s you as a parent not willing to make the changes required
@reptocarl2 I dont have a disagreement with parental issuesObviously some parents are complete shitheadsBut as I stated beforeits far more involved "You dont work hard enough" which honestly is not applicant to a country where most people work longer hours... for less pay.. for less benefits.. with fewer protections than they did in the pastIn terms of educationthe issue tends to be structural and financialbut YES.. I agree the parent-school relationship is NOT positive at all Understand?Have I not made that point clear enough in this conversation?Have I not provided enough examples to you through the past few hours.. that im not talking only money? The issue here is that you WANT my argument to be "We need money for all things".. and "I want free stuff"when its not been my position on any of this scroll uptry reading what I actually send you
@reptocarl2 You really have an issue with putting words in my mouthI will say it againThe failure of the educational system today is do to a LOT of issuesFunding... MANY schools are underfunded... many schools simply lack resources to keep their students up to par (without those resources they are simply not competitive) Structural... often times educators struggle to keep up due to red tape... restrictions that are given.. . or artificial expectations that have no real ground in realityand YES you are correct.. the Parental relationship is a negative influenceBUT it is one small issue.. that is part of a VERY complex problem in this countryfrom the beginning I've explained these problemsand no where have I stated "money will fix it all".. or "I want free stuff"So lets drop that actbecause its the position YOU WANT me to take
@Stormsies the subject of test scores not being competitive with the top countries has come up many times in my lifetime. Educators have asked for more time with students meaning longer days and longer school year. The politicians represents the voters. If the politicians listened to the educators and said “we’re modeling our education system across the country on the Japanese” those politicians won’t be in office very long. So what’s a politician to do? The problem with education in America is us the parents. It’s that simple. Educators across the country have asked for major changes many times over decades but parents shoot them down every time. The Japanese place a priority on education. We place a priority on letting kids be kids
@reptocarl2 I dont disagree with some of those sentimentsBut once again. I think through this statement.. you clearly realize the issue is both financial and structuralAND.. I do believe most parents want CHANGES in the systemthe issue is in that degree.. political..and a lack of trust between the educators and the parentsI dont think its because the majority of Americans care little about educationits that $$$$.. and political interests matter moreHOWEVERwhat I disagree with isis that politicians represent the votersI would say they represent $$$$. nothing moreand rarely do you have politicians that serve anything other than $$$$Lobbying groups have more power.. than the typical voter.. and that is a sad realityand most American voters are quite ignorant of the issues
@Stormsies I don’t know of any anti education lobbies
@reptocarl2 Haha I think you are missing the point that when priorities are not educationand priorities are making $$$ for corporate elitesthen there is no longer an emphasis on education? instead.. the emphasis is on making $$$
@Stormsies well shame on us to keep voting them in. We’re the ones with the power. They’re elected by us to do what we want and if they aren’t then vote them out!
@reptocarl2 I think you are proving this point...much of this discussion youve mentioned.. Handouts... or Lazy peopleusing talking points that have been used by politicians.. to push agendas... that are not grounded in realitybut instead grounded on $$$ gains.The argument of Socialism for example (constantly used in the news media.. and by many politicians) Is used as a way to misinform people on the issuesSo when people argue for a Universal Healthcare system with Private Optionsit then turns into "They want to turn your country into Venezeuala"MANY Americans are simply misinformed on the issuesand believe that by voting on a particular party line... or voting on a particular issue they are doing what is best serving themwhen YES.. I agree.. they simply continue to add to the problem.but also id argue the power of the vote only goes so far (2 of the last 3 presidents would not have been elected if things were based upon the vote) <--- But we have the Electoral College. Or concentrated voter suppression activities (like the closing of voting stations in Texas... or many states that do not allow absentee votes.. the lists of those issues go on)The Voting system itself is a messYou add the $$ involved in politicsthe $$ spent on disinformationand the clear structural issues in the system...its clear why the American people have less powereven if they still have the "Vote"
@reptocarl2 .. the Irony is I think many Republicans/Conservatives would AGREEthe Democratic Primary was a shamand that it was clear the DNC had a concentrated effort to elect a certain candidate (and clearly succeeded... just as they did the same thing in 2016)I dont think they have issues with that.. I honestly believe most Conservatives.. Trump Supporters etc.. would absolutely agree that it exists in the Democratic PartyTrump himself has stated as much (and I agree with him on that... and I dont agree with him on many things)
@Stormsies as far as misinformation it’s up to us to do the research. The electoral college is our system period so we have to live with it. I believe America works. There’s many things in past administrations that I’ve hated to my core but I will never call my country a piece of shit when the reality is we’re the most prosperous and powerful in the world
@reptocarl2 Haha nah I dont think the USA is a piece of "shit"but the USA has lost its position as being the "Best" (if it ever was to begin with)We exaggerate how great we arewhen we have glaring flaws... that in some cases MOST countries (even poor, disorganized) have resolved.. simply for the $$$ of corporate elites. in terms of the electoral collegeYES.. it was developed to give smaller states more strengthbut ultimately its less dictated by popular vote (even many times representatives vote against the popular vote... you see it all the time) and its the electoral vote.. not the popular vote.. that elects the presidentbut like I stated.. that is just one problem of manyin terms of misinformationmany people simply take things on face valuethey accept the reporting of Fox News.. or CNN.. or MSNBC as being 100% factual.. without realizing these organizations have agendassure you can "research" .. but I think its clear people will believe what they want to believe.. even if its clearly harming themyou can find FACTS for any position you want to hold on the internetwanna believe the earth is flat.. well there is "proof" for that o. omost people just dont know how to researchand even if you research properly.. other people will create conspiracies to explain why you are wrong.If the Media was honest... reported without any sort of agenda leaning.. people could be more informed to make their own choicesbut as it standsyou can pretty much guess what people will vote on the basis of sex.. race.. religion.. sexuality... region... etc
@reptocarl2 and dont ever say we need to just STICK with it.. because its the "American" wayAmerica has always changednew legislation is always passedand what might have benefited people in the past..may no longer be relevant todaywe must continue to change.. continue to developor we will continue falling behind.
@Stormsies I never said we need to stick with it. I just said America works.
@reptocarl2 It works for the wealthy.. I can give you thatAmerica continues to growthe Economy continues to get larger (though right now due to coronavirus.. obviously not)but its about where the distribution of wealth typically goesand its not to the working classI think once againRepublicans/Conservatives.. etcAGREEthe Middle Class is dyingand it isdue to the structure of this country todayits far harder to meet the standards of living that once existed decades agoand the biggest reason is due to that distribution of wealthEven take in consideration how Taxes workToday.. we complain about high tax rates... and consistently cut the tax rate (especially for Wealthy.. and Corporations)and complain about individuals who want to raise taxes.. to 70%when during the "Golden Age" of the 50s (at least I think many Conservatives seem to view them as some sort of glory days).. the top tax brackets were in the 90% it made it easier for the Government to fund programs in the pastnow?its difficultTax rates are cutCorporations (like Amazon) get away without paying taxes (and get rebates)and programs that are needed are cut dryto be honestSocialism is practiced VERY HEAVILY in the USA.. Corporate Socialism
@Stormsies I don’t believe in distribution of wealth. If you want that kind of society there’s places for you to go. Why don’t A students give some of their grades to D students then you can distribute the grades and make everyone equal. Financial equality isn’t a right.
This distribution of wealth has been tried many times and failed every time. This is a quote, “the problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money”
@reptocarl2 hahahathat is not at all what im talking aboutthere is a difference between "equal distribution of wealth"and being treated equallyand the fact is when a corporation can get away without paying taxes.. because they have the lobbying power to push politicians to pass legislation that helps them gain more $$$.. thats clear corruptionthe middle class is dyingbecause the corporate elites have control over the political systemthey siphon off the resources for themselves.. while leaving most Americans with very little...
@reptocarl2 you are speaking about a "Communist" systemim not advocating for thisor "Equal Distribution" across the boardim not advocating for Rich people to surrender all their money and live like meor for every person in the country to make the same salaryim advocating for fair treatmentand common sense legislation that prevents corporations from abusing people.. and abusing the system for their own $$$ gain
@reptocarl2 The issue with the "distribution of wealth"is that financial gains.. for the most partalways go to the topbecause the top has the power to control the processand that for decadesthat disparity between the wealthy.. and the poor.. has continued to increaselargely due to policies that have been influenced by the people with $$$
@Stormsies but in many cases the corporations are what employs you. Small businesses get many breaks too. You penalize me for being successful and I will fire thousands, close my doors, liquidate my assets and retire to a private island with this 🖕as my flag. Where will you get your money and how will you employ the ones I’ve fired then?
@reptocarl2 So then the argument islet the corporations do as they pleaselet them hold the country hostagehow about no?no one is penalizing anyone for being successfulthe tax rates that many suggest.. are lower than what existed decades agothe issue is that the corporations have had this control over the government (and arguably the nation/people in general)1. make it look like they are the victimsand 2. to continue to take more revenue for themselves... while avoiding any sort of retribution for their actionsI think your reply personifies precisely the issue we have today
@Stormsies I believe it works
@reptocarl2 it has worked to rip away rights from average peopleto allow corporations to deregulatedestroy communities for $$$ gain the list goes on of the issues they causeid say the large share of corruption/issues in this nation is largely centered upon corporate $$$$education... healthcare... political corruptionetcwe go out of our ways to say "lets defend this company" as if its an individuallets go out of our way to bail them out.. or cut taxes...lets spend billions beyond billions and billions to aid themno one asks where the money comes from yet when average americans need somethingits a heated debate.. all of the sudden the question is "where does the money come from?"Endless conflict and war? no one cars where the money comes fromMassive Tax cuts or bailouts? no one asks where the money comes frombut if Americans want universal coverage... that is always the question
The news is entirely wrong (not surprising, your not going to watch if they told you the truth). We, in our nation of 327 million people have about 17,000 people murdered a year. That's a.005% probability of being killed. If we ignore black on black/gang violence, you have a rate of.002%. If you are not in California, Illinois (specifically Chicago), or New York City, that rate drops to almost nothing. Meanwhile your chances of being killed in a car accident are.009%, substantially higher then being murdered (this is including non shooting deaths as well). In fact we live in the safest era our SPECIES has ever known statistically speaking (based upon data from history and hunter gatherers, ancient man had anywhere between 50% to 90% probability of being killed by another human. So to say we are doing better is an understatement.).We do pay high taxes, but that's because people voted it in. You have to pay high taxes if your going to have a welfare system, their is no way around that, that's not (entirely) the governments fault, that's the people who voted it in, voted the politicians in, and continue to demand more government involvement. Not sure how our government is hypocritical so I can't really say whether or not that is accurate.
@hellionthesagereborn I won't argue with the "Safest Era in Human History" because ultimately you are correct.Historically, wars use to cause more death, people died more frequently from disease... etcBut what I will say isthat by Western Standards.. the USA lags behind in almost every standard (Freedom indexes, crime, poverty, corruption.. etc)in the case of murderYou would be correct in assuming that the USA is relatively safe compared to most nations on the planetbut I think it would be ridiculous to compare the USA (the richest, and most powerful/influential nation on the plant) with anything but the best of nationsBy western standards.. the USA has a very high murder rate... and suffers from pretty sever crime issues that most of the western/developed world doesn't see.Id also agree that she exaggerates a bit by stating its the most "hypocritical government that has ever existed". .. id argue there are far worse... but I think she's simply using hyperbole to explain the glaring issues in our governmentand honestly... we pay relatively low tax rates (especially if you are wealthy/corporations) compared to a lot of the more successful nations on the planet.
@Stormsies As I said our murder rate is minimal by all standards and while taking into account population its still higher then other developed nation (again, murder rate, not crime rate), that is again due to fatherlessness within the black community and once that is accounted for that number drops to comparable levels. We can fix the problem right now but unfortunately PC culture refuses to allow people to address the problem ensuring that it persists (never stated that the US doesn't have problems only that they are not the issue people claim they are).As for the rest, as I pointed out with the other things, those are due to an intentional (or gross ineptitude) misinterpretation of the data. I mean for instance, the freedom index, which actually places us as one of the freest nations in the world, also considers us to be less free because we have a republic instead of an outright democracy. That however is entirely subjective as the reason we have our system set up the way it does is so that we don't have mob rule, so that minority groups also have a say and that the top four biggest cities don't control our entire government. How is that then, less free? Again, that is entirely subjective. As for our economy which is considered mostly free, that is accurate but again, we use to have it be more free before the push (predominantly by the left) to increase regulations. Again, not denying that we have issues but again, these are trivial in comparison and ironically the exact opposite actions are needed to resolve them then what people are proposing. They also claim we don't have a free press yet unlike almost every other nation we have no state run media, we have the freedom of information act, we have no means of censoring the media and the media cannot be sued by public officials. So in what way is it not free? The fact is, it is free.
@Stormsies Again, most claims are subjective or intentional misinterpreations (like for example when WHO said we had worse healthcare then cuba because of access to coverage yet neglected to mention that almost 90% of the people in the US who don't have coverage are between the ages of 20 and thirty and make at least 50,000 dollars a year or more and thus can afford it but choose not to, then also ignored that we have superior healthcare. Its either intentional misrepresentation or incompetence).So if you look at the data, truly look at it, you find that we are the most successful nation on the planet (we are definitely slipping because we are moving away from what made us successful but we are still at the top overall), that we are better off then Europe and the so called "more successful" nations and that as far as problems go, ours are minor and in most cases we know the solution but its simply not PC to point it out (whether that be pointing out the issue of fatherlessness or pointing out that our healthcare system has decreased in quality and increased in price by 600% since the sixties thanks to government involvement through licensing and needless regulations).
@Stormsies, you're one of the woke ones, dude. I'd like to be on your friend list.
Scroll Down to Read Other Opinions
Wealthier country than ALL of Europe
You didn't ask about wealth. And I'm pretty sure you're not rich
I have $5 million in the bank, is that NOT rich?
Yeah, brother, that would be rich. And I'm not even going to debate that because I don't have proof that you do but I also don't have proof that you don't. So debating that is avoidable.However, You STILL did not ask about wealth. The process of achieving the American Dream is different from having $5 million in the bank. So you still haven't countered what I said, especially considering that there are Europeans who have more than you do.
Also, you're wrong. World's Wealthiest Countries, published less than a year ago. Look it up.You should get to know the facts. At first I thought you were kind of a smart guy, but now that you've said something that statistics show makes no sense and also contradict, I think I gave you too much credit. Millions mean nothing when you can't even read stats bro
Ya.. I think he's missing the pointthat most Americans are suffering...its the Richest and most powerful nation on the planetbut plenty of Americans can't even afford to see the doctor..I think there is a great disconnect between the wealthy of the nationand the majority of people.. who barely live paycheck by paycheck.So these constant arguments of the USA being the wealthiest and most powerful nation on the planetthough YES TRUEignores the fact that most Americans see little of that...
@Stormsies Exactly. So I don't know where that even came from, or why he brought it up. As you said, you're right.
They're not bothering to pretend all that much about the votes, any more.Americas Wisconsin state voting during the outbreak what are your thoughts? ↗Do you agree with President Trump that if it were easy to vote in the US, you'd never have a Republican elected again? ↗
Americans should have it even easier than these hard working immigrants. They were born here and should know our language, they have access to quality education (even the poorest school districts) and there is nothing to prevent them from working hard. I was raised by a mother who behaved like we were still in the great depression. Nothing was ever wasted, we didn't spend money that we didn't have and we worked hard. These traits are free for anyone else to adopt and I dont think that you need to go to the extremes that she did either.
They thumbs me down because they know I’m correct. Live in your delusions of grandeur all you want.
The truth offends... Tell it, girl
I plan to :)
To be fair, in global social mobility index (which is the American dream), the USA clocks in at number 27th. Right after Lithuania and the USA is closer to Kazakhstan and Russia than basically all of Western Europe
Who is number 1 then?
More out of curiosity lol
I’ll just list the top 10Denmark, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland, Netherlands, Switzerland, Belgium, Austria, Luxembourg.To show the difference, the USA is just as far behind from Denmark as Saudi-Arabia and Albania from the USA. The USA is as far from Luxembourg as China from the USA
I think people who don't give in to weakness will succeed in America. This means avoiding booze, drugs, gambling and giving in to your feelings of irrational hatred (racial hatred, hatred of science.)
@I-am-a-nobodyThen it becomes a basic thing of the USA providing quality education at very low costs, which often does not happen.
Ha! I’ll bet your downvote came from an mooching illegal immigrant.
@Jupiter1: Yup. No doubt. Lot's of ILLEGAL MOOCHERS here!
The downvotes are because you're blaming the wrong people for killing the American Dream. Try looking at the people paying themselves vast sums and inflating their companies' stock prices by share buybacks (which used to be illegal, for good reason).
@Jupiter1 Nope, from a hard working American who lost work due to the quarantine. The American dream, is just a dream because you can work all your life and still die in poverty just because.
How has it not been completed?
@hellionthesagereborn equality on so many different levels from social status and money to education and suck nothing is equal or balanced it just never will be due to human nature.
Well, why would it be equal for money? If I work really hard and some one else doesn't, isn't it equal that I get more money for the work I did? If I produce something of greater value to people, doesn't that then mean that me getting more money is equality? Education? In what way is this not equal?Social status? Again, in what way? I'm not sure I understand that, how can one make some one equal in status? I mean is that something that can even be measured? If it can't be measured then how can it ever be made "equal"? I do agree that human nature will always interfere with "equality", but that isn't an issue because we are all subject to the same rules, the government cannot fix that, society cannot fix that, and their is no system on earth that can get rid of inequality or perceived injustices. That's why the constitutions says they are in pursuit of a more perfect union i. e. they where not perfect and we will never be perfect but we can always try to be better (and we have largely succeeded in that in my opinion). It also says you have the right to persue happiness but that is again, up to you to do so in that way sure its going to be unequal because no one can control other people, no one can stop nature (some of us get a bad start, its not their fault but its not societies fault either so punishing society or the rich or the government for something they cannot control wouldn't be fair either). So the American dream isn't about a perfect life, its about YOUR life, you being able to choose how to live your life as you see fit (which you can do in the US (as long as your not hurting some one else for the most part)), and to have the playing field clear so that no person or organization can interfer with your life (you still have to deal with nature and yourself but all of that was out of their hands to begin with).
Adorable puppy by the way.
@hellionthesagereborn Hellion I don't know why are you arguing with her about equality when you always argue that women have far more rights and freedoms than men. This is such a contradiction to your normal stance. Lonewolf is right and has a very measured opinion. I support you, Lone.And p. s. I know you'll write a wall back, but I probably won't respond. It's too much work getting into these with you.
@AmandaYVR No its not. I asked specifically what equality she was referring to. If it was about women, I would have pointed out they have more legal rights then men, if she was referring to racial I would have pointed out that statistically their is no inequality based upon race. I just wanted to make sure I knew what was being stated before speaking. Not sure why your angry about this.
@hellionthesagereborn the upper class gets more money when the lower class is struggling more and more and the poverty rate increases.Upper class is gaining while the lower class loses money and that's fair? How? If the upper class works hard for a period of time with 1 job while the lower class has 2 different jobs to meet the quality of life of higher class citizens and is still poor that's not fair bc the poor will forever struggle while the higher classes get bored with life at some point. Not all people are like this but it's true.
and thanks I love my dog very much
That's not true though? The rich are definitely getting richer but so is the poor. In fact the poor in America are richer then the middle class in most European nations. The problem is people look at the gap and presume that this means that those at the bottom are worse off. However if you look, the difference between 20,000 and 30,000 is smaller then the difference between 1 million and 1 billion, does that mean that the person with 1 million is worse off? OF course not, and that is precisely what we see in the US, people say we don't have as much upward mobility but that's because we are already so high up the next level is greater then in other nations. Its something that people say that is intentionally misleading, it give the impression of the US having some kind of unfair gap but its not.Look at the richest people in the nation, how many of them only work 40 hours a week? None of them. The average hours worked for a CEO is 80 hour work weeks but the average American only works about 47. So shouldn't they get more money if they are working almost twice as many hours? If we look at the richest people only 8% inherit their money, the rest are self made million/billionaires. Look at Jeff Bezos of amazon, he started his business in his garage. Microsoft owner Bill gates did much the same thing, apple was also started in a garage. How is that not hard work?
As for the double jobs, its true some people work two jobs but if we look at the census numbers its only about 3.9% of the population, not a very big number. The percentage of US citizens that are millionaries is 4.1%, so we actually have more millionaires then people who work two jobs and that is before we get into the issue of whether or not they are working two jobs because they need to or because they want to (some people work double to earn more money, or because they work their normal job and then their second job is something they are passionate about and/or is something they are trying to turn into a full career which isn't reflected in the numbers).My point is the media and politicians love doom and gloom because in the case of the media, your going to tune in a lot more then if they told you that everything is actually doing great (we are living in the safest time our species has ever known, we have so much food we don't even know what to do with it which was not the case 100 years ago, we live better then kings did 100 years ago and more comfortable lives then any other human ever did with more freedoms then at any other time in our species history and with the best medical technology our species has ever had, but none of that sells papers (or rather ads in this digital age). The politicians also need you to be afraid because after all, why would you vote for them if they tell you everything is fine and we can sit back and do nothing and life will continue being fine? You have no reason to vote for them, they need problems to claim they can fix in order for you to vote for them, so that's why they do it. Just something to think about.(and of course you love your dog, how could any one not love dogs? I've grown up with them my entire life (mostly golden retrievers), they are the best!).
Its true though?
Both Norway and Luxembourg have the U. S. smoked on a scale of wealth, and they are both in Europe. Individually they each are far above the U. S., so add in the other European countries and you only make yourself out to be not-so-smart.
I agree...I think people who speak about American Wealth... in terms of NATIONAL.. tend to miss that a lot of Americans are in Poverty (and far higher rates than many Western Nations)Yes.. the USA is the most powerful.. and richest country on the planetBUT...most Americans generally have lower standards of living than many other nations (Norway is a good example that you listed)YES its true the USA is generally ahead of most of the worldbut when you compare the USA to much of the Western world.. its lagging far behind
Norway and Luxembourg are tiny countries compared to the U. S, so to compare is ridiculous.
@Stormsies Not according to stats... The facts beg to differ.www.google.com/searchwww.usatoday.com/.../
@jabbahut Yeah, it's sad that statistically they would be richer
That's going off of GNI per-capita by the way, which is why it relates more to your question.
Which basically means that to have a lot of money does you no good if it is all held in one place. The American Dream referencing your question would require more disbursement. That's my point. You didn't ask how wealthy the countries were. You basically asked about making it from poor to rich in a way, which goes along with GNI P-C
That depends on how your defining rich.fee.org/.../fee.org/.../fee.org/.../Not saying the argument can't be made, we where far better off before we started implementing socialistic policies, but at the very least we are within the top ten (and again, depending on what your looking at potentially the richest). Its not very fair to insult some one over a difference of how your defining richest (and I would not say they are significantly richer either, and if your combining their wealth with the rest of Europe you would actually drive down the over all wealth to the point where again, the US would be richer then Europe as a whole).
@hellionthesagerebornI think the confusion tends to becomparing National Economies (which the USA is the largest)and Per Capita GDP (which isn't an accurately portrayal of distribution of wealth.. all it does it divide the GDP by the population... it assumes everyone receives equal amounts of that wealth)in my opinion its far better ways to judge a populationthe USA is not the "worst"in any regardbut the USA has arguably fallen behind in most things (compared to the Western world at least)
@Stormsies I think the GDP argument is a fair argument to make, my point was only that attacking some one because their are several ways to measure it is unfair. Also while it may be true that wealth isn't distributed evenly, it is true that the US poorest are better off then the poor of Europe (I believe I posted a link to the data for that). So I think that is also something to consider.Now it is true we have fallen behind in some ways, mostly due to us having increased welfare systems and having our school system turned into a political machine (democrats in our country refuse to allow for school choice so people are not allowed to go to different public schools that are outside their particular district. This has many negative consequences). However to say we have fallen behind in many things is not accurate. Again, we are still within the top ten wealthiest nations regardless of how you measure it, we still have the best healthcare system in the world (despite many organizations trying to claim other wise with very shoddy tests (we have seven times the survival rate for cancer and trauma victims then any other nation for example and out of the top ten best hostpitals in the world I believe its six of them are within the US and the top three are all in the US, etc.). We produce 70% of all pharamucitical development and cures, the majority of all biomedical discoveries and technologies, etc. etc. We are not the America we use to be (again, not arguing that, its a source of frustration to many americans), but we are still America and we are still within the top ten in most every category.
Our poor are richer then any other nations poor, the average income is higher, the quality of life is better, and the reason why so many claim that their isn't "upward mobility" is because the bar is so much higher in America then anywhere else that a person can move up higher then those in other nations and still be considered poor in comparison. In short its an issue of comparing the poor of America to the rich in America, if you compare the poor of America to the middle class of say the UK, you will find that the American is still richer then the middle class UK citizen. That's the issue. That's why how you measure it matters so much.
@hellionthesagereborn I am unsure you get the pointThe issue in the USA is not that we lack the abilityits that the services rendered are more based upon someones personal wealthYES if you are in a higher class in this country... then its likely you will get "better" healthcare the most people in this worldBUT.. the majority of people in this country suffer from extreme medical debt (and many avoid going to the doctor for that very reason.. or they simply can't afford their medicine).. so in comparison to most Developed nations. the USA lags behind in nearly every aspect when it comes to healthWhen it comes to WHY this nation has fallenI highly doubt it has much to do with the "welfare system", Instead it has more to do with Corporate/Elitist control over.. policy issues.. politicianseven in terms of education, I think it has less to do with "democrats forcing their wills" (honestly both parties are to blame for this current issue) and more to do with the educational system not being the forefront of political discussion or importance.I think the point many people miss is thisYES we are the leader in MANY things (as you stated.. the USA is one of the leading nations in terms of pharma research/technology) But the issue is how the system is developed currently... MOST Americans never seen that success... OR in order to get a taste of it must drown themselves in debtthe USA is VERY GOOD for the Wealthy... and for the Corporationsbut its no longer nation that truly serves the peopleand NoI dont believe any particular party is solely at fault for it (Democrats and Republicans alike are to blame for this issue)
@hellionthesagereborn Well to be honestWe are not comparing the USA to.. lets say... Somalia (But yes.. there are Americans who live in Extreme Poverty.. that are liken to what you see there.. but yes once again its nowhere near as common)We are comparing the USA to other Developed nationsthat is where see the true issues with the system in the USAWe are a nation that in terms of things like Healthcare... spends significantly more... but sees very little in return (higher child mortality rates... higher obesity rates... lower life expectancy.. and even arguably a supply issue in many hospitals.. among many other things)... or Poverty (where we rank amongst the worst in the developed world)... extremely high crime rates... income inequality... the list really is endless
@Stormsies I wasn't comparing the US to Somalia, I was comparing the US to Europe, as I stated I provided the link to my data showing that on average the poorest americans are better off then people in Europe if we bother to compare the numbers.As for our healthcare, we spend less actually comparative to other nations and receive far more. The only reason why they claim we spend more is because we spend more upfront. That's not the same as spending more over all. If your entire population is spending 15% of their income on healthcare (as 50% of government spending in places like Canada are on healthcare and that is half of tax payers money), which would come up to on average of 5600(if we take Canadas average income) us dollars for every citizen, every year, regardless of whether or not they actually needed it, we can safely say that some one spending that same amount once when they did is less. As for quality, again, we have a seven times greater survival rate for traumatic injury and cancer compared to European nations and Canada, that is absolutely not just superior, but superior in orders of magnitude. You then factor in that we also have greater testing done, greater access to MRI's and things of that nature and you are going to have a significantly superior healthcare system, which we do.
@Stormsies As for mortality rates, technicaly we have "higher" infant mortality rates, but that is due to how we define them. First we define premature births in that category and Europe doesn't. Secondly Europe only keeps tabs up to about three weeks, we keep tabs up to about nine months. That's why we have different numbers, not because we are worse off but because we are actually better, more thorough and more honest with our numbers. Same goes with maternal death rates. So we actually have substantially lower mortality rates when you factor that in. We do have higher obesity rates then many nations (UK and Scotland I think are equivalent to the US if memory serves), but then unlike places like japan, its not illegal to be fat. You are free to choose (and part of this is due to the war on fats that started in the sixties which caused a decrease in fat in food and an increase in sugar (even though fat is healthy for you and our bodies are not use to processing so much sugar)). So freedom is the reason for our greater obesity rates and misinformation that is still being taught to this day, but that has nothing to do with healthcare so its irrelevant.
@Stormsies Same goes with our lower life expectancy, that has nothing to do with healthcare. If we have higher rates of obesity which again is personal choice (and evidence that we have so much more then other nations as food is so common its actually now a detriment), this would affect life expectancy but again this has nothing to do with the quality of care (if your morbidly obese in America your going to live longer then being the same weight and health in the UK). Also it ignores that we have an influx of immigrants to a far greater degree then any other nation in the world (we are talking over a million immigrants are made citizens per year in the US and millions more enter the country per year (this is five times greater then the next most generous nation, Canada). They will have health issues because early childhood issues do impact adult health and as such would also have to be factored in, which is not done in the studies your quoting (and again, still has no baring on healthcare as again, these people are still going to live longer here then they would anywhere else with those conditions).We have no supply issues in our hospitals either, not sure why you would make that claim. Now in the UK and Europe they definitely have that issue. In fact they have to allow people to die because they don't have the resources to take care of them (which is why italies coronavirus numbers are so high because they outright stated they would not help any one over the age of 60 because they didn't have the resources, or why in the UK their was the incident of the parents not being allowed to have a surgery done on their infant boy and the government also prevented them from leaving the country for the US to have the procedure done because the government stated that the likelihood of survival was so low it wasn't worth wasting the resources on him.).
@Stormsies As for poverty, our average income is greater then Canadas by over 40%, greater then the UK by 20,000 dollars, greater then germany's by a few thousand etc. etc. So we on average earn more then most Europeans, our poorest, which again I have already pointed out and provided the evidence for this so I'm not sure why you keep ignoring that, are richer then any poor of any country this is specifically referring to developed nations in western Europe. So that is incorrect (and that's before pointing out that their have been many scandals in Europe where its been discovered that police and organizations have been under reporting the homelessness problems in order to look better). Our crime rates are incredibly low. Now if you are talking about murder, yes we have higher murder rates (but again, like the UK, other nations have higher crime and violent crime rates), but that is directly due to black on black/gang violence which make up over half of all violent crime. That itself is due to fatherlessness within those communities so we could fix those problems but we are told that we are racist if we bring it up so nothing we can really do about that. But even then we are talking about a.005% probability of being murdered in the US, that's nothing.
@Stormsies Income inequality isn't an issue and its an intentionally misleading term. Income inequality is when some one else has a billion dollars and you only have a million. If you have only a million are you still poor? Are you still under privileged? Are you still considered in poverty? Of course not, that's absurd. The rich in the US continue to get rich, but so to do the poor which again is why our nations poor are better off then the middle class of almost all western nations. So again, that is not really an argument because its misleading by design (that's why it makes really good headlines, its lying without actually lying and it gets people to read the articles (or at least share them on the internet as if they where meaningful).So I'm happy to hear the rest of your list and clear up any more misconceptions you may have?
@hellionthesagereborn Wow, okay I can see you are one of those1. Your study.. Is misleading.. because it deals with Consumption.. NOT... Wealth (even within the study it states that it is NOT a representation of American poor living better) Poor Is Poor, regardless of what you are required to consume to be there... 2. The United States pays more per capita than any nation on the planet for Healthcare... EVEN its Private Healthcare spending is nearly TRIPLE that of any nation on the planet (and its Public spending is relatively equal by % of GDP) .. so the idea that the USA spends less and gets more.. is not even based on the actual stats provided .. in MOST cases.. the USA spending is nearly 50% more than any other developed nationits not close to an accurate portrayal
@hellionthesagerebornWow I guess you winUSA is far better than Europethank you for clearing up my ignorance
@hellionthesagereborn Fucking Capitalism FTW!!WOOOOis that the reply you expected? o. Oeverything youve sent is nonsensicalYou throw out statistics that are not even based in realityyou throw out counter arguments like "well our life expectancy is lower.. BUT thats life choice... BUT in thise other case its because we are better"seriously man
@hellionthesagereborn 1. When we deal with Infant Mortality rates (once again... pulling from you ass)According to our own CDC... Our Infantry Mortality Rate IS indeed higher than European Nationsand your claims are.. once again.. . misleading...you can look up the study"Behind International Rankings of Infant Mortality: How the United States Compares with Europe"
@hellionthesagereborn THENyou speak about "Life Expectancy"claiming it has nothing to do with Health issues?THat somehow the decrease of our life expectancy is completely based upon... Life choices? o. O According to once againthe CDC "CDC Data Show U. S. Life Expectancy Continues to Decline"DUE to largely PREVENTABLE issues INCLUDING YES "Lifestyle choices" (which are more of a representation of the degradation of society... ). It is misleading to attribute "drug overdoses".. or "suicides" to lifestyle choices (especially considering the rise of mental disorders) Our destruction healthcare system is a major aspect of this due to the fact that many Americans simply can't afford it (or are not covered)thus many Americans go untreated (Me included.. considering im part of that category) So no once again in this case you are misleading (and even from the studies themselves.. they are stating there multiple examples)you are taking a studyand attempting to apply only 1 aspect of it
@hellionthesagereborn Once again you bring about misleading statisticstaking on a GDP Per Capita statistics.. is not applicable because it assumes all people earn equallyI dont know about youbut the majority of people I know make no more than $20k a year? THE issue tends to be the separation of Wealth between the EXTREME wealthy (which is the top 1% of Americans) and the rest... that continue to own less and less of that "GDP" year by yearThe United States is one of the worst countries when it comes to the division of wealth (at least in the "Developed" world) once again you simply cherry pick statisticsand I've always covered the idea of the 20% poorest being richer than middle Europeansconsumption (take for example the far higher healthcare costs in the USA) is not an accurate portrayal of actual wealth. So once again NOAmericans do not live FAR FAR better/richer lives than EuropeansRich Americans? SURE!.. those individuals that help you distort these statisticsabsolutely misleadingEven your talk about Crime Rates I think is good enough to show us how lost you are on this topicBlack on Black crime is INDEED the biggest indicatorand you want to attempt to... what? push it to the side as if its not relevantthen you give some probability statistic of HOW like I am to be murdered? o. Oand somehow that is suppose to deal with the fact the USA has a far higher crime rate that most of the Developed world? thats a bad argument.
@hellionthesagereborn And you actually have the audacity to claim the USA system is the BEST BEST in the worldand we have the supplies we needwhen the United States right now... is so under supplied that Doctors are forced to create makeshift masks... or beg the central government for help (when it clear they have no interest in actually helping?).. States attempting to outbid each other for supplies... because they themselves stated they were so understaffed and resourced to deal with this issue?While many other nations have already resolved it? (sure point to Italy and Spain as negative influences)Get Real! There were even OFFICIAL statements FROM LAST YEARstating that Officials were warning that Hospitals were suffering from severe supply shortages for things like C SectionsSo Nothe USA is not some country of plenty (unless youve got the money)MANY Hospitals.. prior to COVID were suffering from Supply shortagesbut COVID itself has shown the glaring issues with how we supply ourselveshow our healthcare system works..and ultimately how our govenrment functions as a whole.
@hellionthesagereborn and then once again the idea of "Americans getting richer and richer"Inflation? o. O American statistically haven't had a raise as a whole for over 20 years (Sure the overall amount increases due to inflation)people in MANY fields today actually make LESS money than their counterparts from decades agothis is on top of far higher production ratesand overall corporate abuse/greeda government that has more and more each year been held hostage by corporate demandsand clearly someone who watches too much prageru :P You say a lot manbut its either absolutely misleading. maybe because of ignorance?OR because you want to mislead people on purpose
@hellionthesagereborn I think the real issue here is thatoutside of these ridiculous arguments that are either 1. absolutely misleading studies/statistics (that ultimately prove nothing) or 2. false claims (perhaps ignorance? or perhaps due to where you get your information?) That are not even agreed upon by the Government itself, or any of the Agencies that study these issues within the US... or 3. ridiculous arguments that (such as the crime one you made... its one of the worst in the Developed world... but you still have low chances of being murdered) <--- really? SOO I should probably just look at COVID-19 and ignore the government. . because my chances of getting it are pretty slim (I mean.. 500,000 people isn't much in a country of 330 million) ... o. o... come on...^ and you make a lot of those argumentsthe USA has a lot of issuesa healthcare system that doesn't benefit most people..where statistically. YES.. we dying from preventable diseases (call it a life choice.. when you can't afford it.. or you dont have coverage.. .. or you are eventually denied coverage.. IF Americans had easier access.. then you would see this change immediately) IF you are wealthy.. then YES.. this is a GREAT country to live inbut throwing these nonsense arguments aroundas if the poor should be glad where they arethey should be happy they live in a country that outperforms a good portion of the world in murderor they should be happy in a country where their healthcare is almost entirely dependent upon their workplace (and even then.. its likely to be too expensive to use.. which was my case) OR maybe they should be happy they live in a country where the educational system has constantly ranked amongst the worst in the developed world.. because we live in a country where politicians care more about $$$$ than about average people...then go around and spew nonsensical... (basically propaganda) arguments... o. oplease man o. o...its pretty stupid...
@hellionthesagereborn Do people actually believe these things you spew O. Ono wonder we are in the mess we are today...its quite a genius game to be honest
@hellionthesagereborn To be entirely honest with youthe US is the Sick Man of the Developed World (especially according to the IMF comparisons) in pretty much every single category o. oI just dont get where you get these ideas manbut when you showed me the studies..I think I understand your perspectives now. . and why you are so mislead.
@Stormsies Well you keep repeating the same things but so far you haven't actually provided any data to back up your statements. Assertions are not evidence, never have been and never will. So thus far I have provided sources (from economists among others) for my statements, I went through a detailed list of why certain claims are false (based upon how reporting was done or the great error of inconsistent definitions and what have you) and you have asserted ad nauseum that I'm wrong. . . and then that's all you have done. No evidence, no logical arguments, not points to flaws in my argument just endless assertions that you must be right because after all, how could you possibly be wrong (which is weird because I've explained how you could be wrong multiple times and provided sources to back it something you have yet to do). So yeah, I'm still waiting for evidence and/or an argument (because again assertions are neither and that's all your offering).
67% of all American millionaires are self made, 8% inherit their wealth (the rest are a mix). That's about the same as Canada, only in the US our poorest are actually better off then most every other group. fee.org/.../So that is not true, plenty of poor break out of poverty and our poverty is wealthier then most peoples average or even rich.
@hellionthesagereborn this isn’t true at all:www.businessinsider.com/the-american-dream-of-social-mobility-2017-3
Except as I pointed out what I stated was accurate and the numbers are in fact accurate? I mean, that's not a very accurate study because its not taking into account the very simple fact that if all groups are earning more, then by the very nature of it, no one is going to be dramatically jumping "tiers". So a poor person could still be considered poor because they didn't reach the middle class bracket but that doesn't mean that poor person isn't earning more, in fact data shows they are earning substantially more then usual. The average American income is 63,688$ while the average Canadian income is 52,600$. So on average the poorest American is richer then the poorest Canadian and then some especially when you factor in currency differences which would be 63,688$ vs. Canadas 37,708$ dollars American. That's what a 40% difference? Then when you factor in that Canadians actually pay more for taxes then Americans that gap increases even more.So what your study is saying is that Canadians are able to have greater "upward mobility", fine fair enough, but it ignores the fact that the reason they have greater upward mobility is because that "ceiling" is substantially lower. Its really easy to move up when the bar is low, and that's precisely what is the case in Canada. We have a much higher bar to reach and as such we don't move up to that bar as much but we still outpace Canada (and most every other nation).
@hellionthesagereborn I see you don’t understand economics, you compared average income when the underlying distribution is non-parametric... you’re one of those armchair experts who thinks they understand something and talks like you do, but you actually don’t understand the basics?
Well Said!I think "Armchair Expert" is the most accurate description!I have read many of this mans replies. He rehashes much of the same things over and over again, and to be honest most of those arguments make very little sense. However, they are a clouded in a thin veil of "sensibility" or "educated" because he sounds like he knows what he is talking about. Honestly some of the replies are very similar (almost word for word). MAYBE copy/paste? However It also could be to just save time. Many people have given him great replies on hereLoneWolfMeme, Stormsies, AmandaYVR among many others However, I do believe he will just continue to push out these ridiculous argumentsbased on nothing more than cherry picked information, false statements/accusations, misleading statistics/studies, false comparisons among many other things.I honestly don't blame people ignoring him after a whileI see that AmandaYVR stated she wouldn't reply. It would be exhausting after a while, because you would have to deal with very long arguments, over and over and over again. Waste of time to be honest.
Not at all, that's why I linked to economists because I'm not an expert. I simply pointed out that if you take average incomes you can see that the average is higher in the US, the highest earners in the US are also higher ergo the brackets that one is using to judge upward mobility are actually larger for the US then in Canada. Its like saying that a Canadian runner is faster then an American because he finished a race first but ignoring that he was in an entirely different race, one that was a shorter distance at that. Its not comparable and that's just common sense. Your clearly upset that I would question you on this, but again, economists are also disagreeing with you along with common sense (if your going to have a comparison, you have to compare the same things and your not doing that).
@HadrianRoyce So they don't make sense but are hidden in a veil of sensibility? That's rather contradictory now isn't it? What I say sounds sensible because it is sensible, that's why I provided links to what I stated to show that I am not an "arm chair expert"(which I was only accused of because clearly she couldn't handle some one daring to question her clearly innate superiority (I wonder if the foundation for economic education are also arm chair experts?). You can't compare one to another if your not controlling for all the variables, she didn't and I was pointing that out, that's all.
fee.org/.../fee.org/articles/economic-mobility-is-a-sham/fee.org/.../So as I pointed out before we know that your saying isn't true. Now if you where to say corpratism is a problem and slowing down that development, I would absolutely agree. If you pointed to the involvment of government in this with licenses and restrictions and what have you was a problem, that I would absolutely agree with, but you didn't. What you stated was that fewer people break out of poverty, that isn't true, provably so, you stated that Canada was better off, that is a flat out falsehood, that is provably so. The majority of our millionaires (again, only 8% inherit their wealth) are self made meaning they had to move up which you are saying is impossible and never happens and that only the rich get rich yet Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, all started their companies in their garages. Again, this is ancedotal evidence that is backed by statistical data across the board that what your saying is provably false. I'm not asking you to believe my "opinions", what I am stating is fact, and I have presented you sources for those facts, you can verify them yourself.
@hellionthesagereborn Noits not and this is yet another example of you twisting words, or cherry picking things in an attempt to apply specifically to your argument. It creates an illusion of sensibility through a feigned aura of being knowledgeable. Its a fairly superficial standard of being educated. Yet to many it would seem to be the standard of being knowledgeable. Con men do the exact same thing. Often a mix of faked professionalism/knowledge mixed with an overload of information. Which to a lot of people would create the illusion of sensibility. In reality, it lacks any sensibility because its largely based upon fallacy, false statements, outright lies, and false comparisons. Often times attempting to compare things or create arguments on the basis of standards that don't actually equate to what the central argument is. Yet many other times I see you push misleading positions on the basis of articles you send, taking studies and highlighting one aspect to create an argument, while ignoring what the rest of the studied has posited. Or, in many cases taking studies that themselves are developed as an attempt to push an agenda on very questionable standards (take the Consumption one for example). Creationists, or Flat Earthers do this exact same thing. It creates a narrative on the basis of questionable evidence or outright inaccurate comparisons.
@hellionthesagereborn It is an excellent way to argue, because you will simply muddle down the opponent with fallacy, who may take the time to reply. But ultimately at the end of the day, I am certain many of them will decide it is no longer worth the effort due to its exhausting nature. So I really don't blame some of the people here to not take the time to reply. Because ultimately it is nonsense, and its nonsense you must spend a decent amount of time pushing down (which in return I have noticed you then use outside arguments to create false comparisons, in either an attempt to change the direction of the argument, or label the argument itself in a different light). So no, its not the appearance of sensibility because its sensibleIts an appearance of sensibility because your trained your craft of arguing.It is impressive I might add :) But a poor argument is still an poor argument, no matter how well you spin it. Or no matter how many false claims/comparisons you attempt to draw.In the end its still nonsense. and without a doubt the others on here (Amanda, Stormsies, Lonewolf, current OP etc) are correct in their arguments against youand I wouldn't blame them if they stopped wasting their time with you, and decided to simply stop replying. This would give you some sense of "Victory"but ultimately, still, being wrong is still being wrong.
@HadrianRoyce Your bad at rationalizing your behavior. A con man wouldn't provide sources, I however did. Everything I stated was true, a con man wouldn't tell you the truth, they wouldn't be direct and they wouldn't tell you to go verify it yourself. I did all of that. At this point all your doing is trying desperately to validate your world view in the face of objective evidence that its wrong. For you the truth is less important then your feelings and that is why you have constructed this very absurd idea that I am lying or trying to con people or am giving superficial information even as I am pointing out that what your stating is superficial, that its more nuanced then what you claim, and then providing resources for you to verify that yourself from actual economists. I'm sorry that America is not as shitty a place as you would like it to be, but the truth is the truth, your free to act on it or not, but your not going to alter reality with feelings, the truth will still be their whether or not you acknowledge it.
@HadrianRoyce If I am wrong, by all means take my sources, prove that they are wrong, provide data and counter arguments instead of insulting me and telling me in every way imaginable how I am wrong instead of explaining and showing me how I am wrong. If you where in the right all you would have to do is tell the truth, that's it, and their would be nothing I could do to counter that. You can't of course because I did just that, this is why your desperately trying to rationalize why you are still some how right without any evidence to back your claims by creating a convoluted story about me and about my statements. Again, disproving a lie is easy, you just need to tell the truth. I'll be here waiting for it if you ever decide to speak it.
@hellionthesagereborn Wow, hahaFirst off1. A Con Man would indeed go out of his way to provide "information" to prove his point. Because one of the most important aspects of the Con, is to create the idea that you are indeed knowledgeable, and that your information is indeed "supported" by such and such organization. You have done that multiple times here (as many here have already stated for you, Stormsies for example). He would also TELL YOU to look for the truth yourself (understanding that most people won't do the research, and will already take it for face value). This is why Cons work.. Not because the Lie and avoid Facts, but because they push questionable resources as evidence. Every great con man, every fake product, and every wacky ideology (conspiracies included) do this exact same thing. They all have their "evidence" show where its supported (and by whom) to give it credibility, and then give you the ability to make the choice to research for yourself (recognizing most people won't do it).2. This is precisely what you have done, and it appears that our friends here have already debunked your statements. Instead of being from a position of coning people for money, instead you are more interested in pushing a worldview that is not an accurate portrayal (once again as many people have provided evidence for you here). As I stated in the previous message, these claims you have been pushing have been largely based upon fallacy, false comparisons, outright lies Etc. Our friends have already done the service of debunking them for you, along with providing why they are everything I have listed above. However you decided to ignore them. 3. The Issue I think is you have an inability to accept the failings of this nation and its systems (which have been highlighted and proven by our friends) and instead you prefer to be a broken record and continue pushing your fallacies on different people
@hellionthesagereborn Do I need to disprove it when others here have already called you out and debunked your positions (both is factual studies, and logical arguments). Not at all.Instead you will decide to avoid those, and move onto another target to push your fallaciesI am not that personMy position here is to agree with the OP that indeed you are an Armchair ExpertIf you want to declare some hollow victory over me because I won't play your gamesthen have it. Our friends here have already dealt with your arguments, debunked your positions, called out your fallacies etc etc while also providing evidence for you (and logical counter arguments). etc etc. There is no need for me to do what has already been done in this post.Pick a different game.
@HadrianRoyce No, they would go out of their way to provide FALSE information, I didn't do that (but nice try in twisting what was doing on to suit your needs (you sure your not a con man yourself?). Second conmen rely on peoples worse selves to get what they want, I was just pointing out that something was true and that things are not as bad as they seem (that is nothing like what a conman would do). Third they phrase everything in a way that makes you think that its your idea not his, I'm not subtle enough for that (more of a sledgehammer then a scalpel). So wrong again (your really good at that). As for the other comments, people agreeing with your view, isn't evidence of being right, its just evidence that others are also wrong. An ad populum argument isn't logical and isn't the truth. You keep saying that I need to find the truth myself, but I did, I presented it to you, I presented facts and arguments and sources and so far you have presented. . . ad hominem arguments (also a logical fallacy) and circular logic (your right, you know your right because I'm wrong, you know I'm wrong because your right. That's not an argument, its not even good rationalization even.). Still waiting for you to take my sources and point to where they are wrong, to point to my arguments and provide data as to why they are wrong. So far all your doing is explaining that your smart and I'm stupid and that is why your right but you never actually explain HOW you are right, only that you are. So again, I spoke the truth to the best of my abilities, if it is a lie however you should be able to present data and an argument to prove that my STATEMENTS are wrong (instead of attacking me as a person (which does heavily suggest that you know I'm right)) because a lie can never withstand the truth. So again, I await for the time you feel like speaking the truth (don't keep me waiting too long).
Maybe that's the propaganda in order to profit from the working class.
How much do you need?Is a house and a car enough? Or do you have to live like a celebrity?
@I-am-a-nobody Ask most retired people the American Dream is the American Scam. Many more people are struggling than aren't. Sure a house and a car is great but most people can't even afford to keep payments up on those things.
A lot of the retired people I know are doing quite well. You just need to adjust your tastes to your income. My wife and I bought a starter house for around $35,000. It wasn't great, but we paid it off and got better. We buy used cars. We don't lease or pay for new. A new car probably loses 25% of it's value when you drive off from the dealer. You can do it!
@I-am-a-nobody That is not my point. My point is this life throws you all kinds of BS that takes your money and it is all a scam because the people who rule this world screw us in every way possible look at the stock market crash you think that was not on purpose?
In the US, the American dream is the dream that you can succeed if you work hard enough. That no one, specifically the government, can stop you from succeeding (most places the government holds you back and over regulates you). The American dream is also freedom, where you can say what you want, believe what you want because our laws are designed in such a way that the government cannot regulate our speech, our religious beliefs (or lack of them) or anything else we do so long as it doesn't harm others. No other nation does that and that is why its tied to America. Its also the American dream because unlike so many other nations, we bring in people from all over the world into our nation, we make them citizens so they can also enjoy what we have (we make immigrants citizens at a 5x greater rate then the next most generous nation (Canada)), and so that is also why its the "American" dream rather then just a dream.
Yes... Sums it up well... However I wish college wasn't so darn expensive for those going to college or heading that direction. LOL
67% of American millionaires are self made, only 8% have fully inherited their wealth. If we look, despite claims we are still the freest nation in the world. The American dream still exists, despite the strong efforts of some. Objectively its not an illusion nor a delusion but fact that it still exists (not to say we don't have our share of issues, but comparatively speaking they are minor).
You get educated (usually free if you're poor), then you get a decent job. This is easier to get if you pick a good major in school. Then you work hard. Avoid drugs and criminal behavior.There you go.